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- 1 Looking at the 'Origin/character History' section, and the 'Publication History' sections
- 2 Spoiler Warning
- 3 Two of averything gimmick in Movie?
- 4 Article Quality rating
- 5 Film section Citations
- 6 Harvey Dent pic
- 7 The Dark Knight
- 8 WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required
- 9 recent IP edits about outfit in film
- 10 Why the change?
- 11 references to Heath Ledger
- 12 Continuity Error
- 13 Dark Knight image
- 14 Mayor?
- 15 famiy????????!
- 16 Wording confuses me
- 17 Too many images?
Looking at the 'Origin/character History' section, and the 'Publication History' sections
I'm reading them, and first off, this must be fixed:
Two-Face is also at odds with his ex-wife Gilda, as he believes their marriage failed because he was unable to give her children. She later married Paul Janus, a reference to the Roman god of doors who had two faces, one facing forward, the other backward, in the events of Two-Face Strikes Twice,whom Two-Face had attempted to frame as a criminal by kidnapping him and replacing him with a stand-in, whom Two-Face "disfigured" with makeup to make it look as if Janus had gone insane just as Two-Face had. Eventually caught by Batman, Two-Face was sent away and Gilda and Janus reunited. Years later, Gilda gives birth to twins, prompting Two-Face to escape once more and take the twins hostage, as he had believed them to be conceived by Janus using an experimental fertility drug (which they aren't). The end of the book reveals a surprise twist; Batman learns from Gilda that Janus is not the father of Gilda's twins - Dent is. Some of his sperm had been frozen after a death threat had been made against him, and she used some of it to get pregnant. Batman is able to use this information to convince Dent to free the twins and turn himself in.
that's got some of the most convoluted run-on sentences I've ever seen. I can't tell if he disfigured Janus or Gilda, and who 2F tried to frame, if the disfigured and the framed are the same... Can someone who better recalls the story arc please fix this?
Second, It seems that the Publication history rapidly descends into character history after the discussion of the daily strip '89-'91. Long discussions of Hush and One Year Later should probably be moved to the Character history, but given the current fous of that section on his Golden Age origins, I'm loathe to be that bold and rearrange everything. Thoughts? ThuranX 21:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- There is a lot of bad English in that section, like this: "he inexplicably chose to let Batman live due to it being April Fools' Day." How is it inexplicable if it is then explained?220.127.116.11 (talk) 02:52, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
The section for Two-Face's depictions in the upcoming "The Dark Knight" should contain a spoiler warning, shouldn't it?
- Nope. If it gave specifics about Dent's actions and persona before and after, Esp. Plot details, then maybe, pre-release, it could be discussed. Dent's presence is a major part of the marketing, per the websites, an it's highly likely that as coverage in the MSM increases, numerous comments about Dent being two-face will surface. ThuranX 05:41, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
- Obviously we know Two-Face/Dent will be in the movie, that's not what I'm worried about. The article gives away plot-lines, which people generally try to avoid before seeing a movie.
- Anybody who doesn't want to know what will happen in the movie shouldn't read the Dark Knight section. Doczilla 18:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
NO. If people do not want to read spoilers then they accidently read a spoiler then it's HA HA to them. And by the way Dent/ Two-face is attacked by Batman and knocked over a building and falls to his death. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 18:30, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
BTW for although he follows DA Finch, it's misleading readers to believe that he's his successor. Roger Garcetti took Finch's place according to the marketing, novels, ARG and such which the cast particapted in. Dent defeated Garcetti who ran for re-election. 22.214.171.124 (talk) 10:59, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia contains spoilers. It is supposed to because it is an encyclopedia, not a movie preview site. There are not supposed to be spoiler warnings and spoilers are not supposed to be deleted. Consider the address wikipedia.org to be your spoiler warning. Rifter0x0000 (talk) 22:38, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Two of averything gimmick in Movie?
In Batman Forever -Two Face:
- Has a two toned suit
- Has two differnt guns (A revolver and a automatic pistol}
- Smokes a white cigerette and a black cigar at the same time!
- His assistant "Sugar" wears white and watchs a TV with "angel" cartoons
- His assistatn "Spice" wears black and watchs a TV with "Devil" cartoons
By the way what happens to Sugar and Spice-they are last seen running off into the background when Batman casues the TV rector to explode. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 18:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
- SO what's the question or topic here? That's a nice list of trivia, but not needed in the article. ThuranX 18:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Article Quality rating
Two Face is likely to be receiving lots of attention when The Dark Knight (film) is released. Is anyone interested in working this up to GA level before may? I"m fairly confident that we can turn this into a nice, mostly OOU article about the character's creation, creative teams' views and attitudes toward the character, public reactions, etc., etc. His IU isn't as awful as other pages I'd like to fix up, but I thinkthat it can be streamlined even further. Doczilla appearas to have independently started this part of the process. I think a couple of good collaborative weekends and we could easily get up to GA. Thoughts? Sign-ups for the Dual Dementee's GA strike team? ThuranX (talk) 13:58, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Film section Citations
Can anyone source the material in this paragraph about the contract and buyout?
In the 1989 - 1997 Batman film franchise, Billy Dee Williams appeared as a pre-disfigurement Dent in Batman (1989). Williams signed for this role knowing that Dent was to become Two-Face in further installments of the franchise. To ensure that he would be given the role, Williams negotiated a "pay or play" contract guaranteeing that Warner Brothers would have to cast him as Two-Face or buy him out. However, when Two-Face was to become the main villain in the third movie, director Tim Burton had abdicated to Joel Schumacher, who decided to hire Tommy Lee Jones, and agreed to pay Williams for his cooperation allowing them to use the character.
This was tagged since June 2007. I have removed it to back here pending solid citation. IT doesn't sound implausible for Williams to have tried to protect his career, nor for Schumacher to buy him out to get his view of the characters in place. Sadly, I think the 'other' casting that Burton had discussed would've been better, with Malkovich the Riddler and Williams 2F. If anyone finds citation, jsut readd this para with the cite. It's well-written, (I removed the speculative 'Apparently' that had been in there, but otherwise, it flows nicely and is absolutely clear about the facts), and we could use that bit of development hell info in there. ThuranX (talk) 14:10, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
This "Harvey Two-Face" is a campier character, with no trace of the inner emotional struggle between his good and evil personalities that the post-Miller comics had emphasized. The movie instead has him cod-philosophizing on the unfairness of fate,
This all came off as one writer's opinion; others might find that all comics are naturally campy, and thus this was a perfect version of the character. Let's look for some reviews, Schumacher or TL Jones quotes, or other sources for this, or leave it out. ThuranX (talk) 14:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
The Two-Face of the DC Animated Universe was praised by many fans. Some were upset that his scarring took place in a chemical plant instead of being scarred by a crime boss in court, but according to Timm, this was changed to fit the storyline. Timm has stated that he wanted Two-Face/Harvey Dent to have a Sicilian accent; Al Pacino was actually offered to voice the character at one point, but declined. 
- It's been a year, this is all 'fans say' and uncited. I've pulled the entire paragraph. The two following sections are strong enough on their own. If someone wants to readd the Timm on origin and Sicilian/Pacino, let's add it to the B:TAS section, since that's where Timm did his creative work for this version, and let's get it cited. ThuranX (talk) 14:18, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
- One para opens with "Prior to his disfigurement". Does this indicate that there were two episodes produced and broadcast BEFORE the Acid Splash episode, or that we saw Dent in flashbacks to the pre-acid years in two episodes produced after the first episode with Two-Face in it? ThuranX (talk) 14:21, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
"A similar storyline appears in the comic books - however, in the books, Dent's third persona is called Janus, a reference to the Roman god of doors who had two faces, one facing forward, the other backward." Can we get some citation on a journalist drawign the comparison, or Timm discussing it? I see it as a sensible conclusion, but we should avoid SYNTH. ThuranX (talk) 14:24, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Another 'continuity' question occurs during the 'the final appearance' in the Justice League paragraph. IS this the final appearance ofthe cahracter in a show prudoced as part of the extended BTAS/TNBA 'universe', or is simply an old and withered Dent, rpesumed to be the 'last time we'll see that guy, cause this is just an epilogue' in-universe style comment? ThuranX (talk) 14:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Harvey Dent pic
 This is supposedly a picture of Harvey Dent post scarring from Dark Knight. I was wondering if anyone has any insight as to whether this is real or fake, and if real, if it should be mentioned in the article. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 20:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- At this point I believe Time/Warner is trying to keep a lid on the scarred face, there's at least on case of a leaked image being removed from a site at their request.
- So, regardless of the authenticity of the flicker image, it would be best 1) not to use it in the article and 2) not to direct people to it. - J Greb (talk) 21:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- Here are pics of him actually taken from the movie http://s16.photobucket.com/albums/b45/joma1124/Dark%20Knight%20movie%20camera%20picutres/
Well i think we need a picture of what Two Face looks like in the movie THE DARK KNIGHT, to which i have a photo of. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Swg1000 (talk • contribs) 09:53, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- And that can wait until after there's an official release of said image by WB. And to be frank, it can also wait until after the general release of the film at "home". - J Greb (talk) 10:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- On a note about the other pictures, I tried to expand the film/TV sections enough that the pictures now seem less cluttered. That said, if one has to go (as User:ThuranX suggested, in the edit removing Billy Dee Williams), surely "The Judge" should be the least notable..? I think it very notable that the first live portrayal of Two-Face on film was as Dent alone, and that it was Billy Dee Williams. Plus, it might be better to have a smaller picture of 1940s/50s Harvey rather than the full page, and if someone wants to add the "I Believe in Harvey Dent" poster image for TDK, that might also be of benefit now that the TDK-Harvey summary is longer, since the film dealt with him in such great detail. (Also, a fuller summary of Two-Face in Forever might be beneficial). ntnon (talk) 03:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'd rather see both gone, neither is particularly notable, and both lack a level of critical commentary sufficient to support their inclusion. The TDK material is continually being pared back to the characterization, which is what should be in this article. Expansions about plot and rumors aren't notable. The campaign image would be gratuitous as well. As for expanding 'Forever', only if we can get some decent ictations about the characterization. ThuranX (talk) 05:25, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
- Harvey Dent being black is VERY notable, even if the character is a minor one. I'm sure there's critical commentary focusing on that somewhere, it's just a matter of finding it. Meantime, I feel, the image should stay to illustrate that - unmentioned thus far in the text (aside from the presumed assumption that readers will know why BDW is) - point.
- The White Knight/Dark Knight dichotomy is an utterly invaluable point about characterization, as is the incredibly notable fact that HARVEY (and not Two-Face) played such a vital, integral role in both the film and advertizing. I realize that - perhaps - the summary of Harvey&Two-Face-in-The-Dark-Knight should have been briefer, and I was intending to pare it down somewhat, but not to the point of making it difficult to follow or comprehend. As it stands, the summary here implies that he becomes Two-Face very quickly (more space devoted here to Two-Face than Dent); ignores his self-sacrificing Spartacus move; states that he only took "part" of the IA nickname, which was itself "Two-Face"; suggests that he might kill all of Gordon's family (and not just James Jr.), etc. There must be a middle-ground between the two extremes which better covers all facets of his on-screen character arc(s), and isn't disingenuous...! As it stands, the summary makes Dent out to be a minor character - he was not. In addition, the image is unrepresentative of the film, whereas the campaign poster better reflects how the character appears throughout the majority of the film.
- Incidentally, do you - or anyone - have a reasonable objection to my re-moving the comics pictures, so the Bianchi picture compliments the section it derives from, while the current (and probably replaceable) early depiction corresponds to Kent's earliest appearances...? ntnon (talk) 16:23, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
The Dark Knight
There should be mention of Harvey's slow change. He did several things such as flip a coin to see if he would go into the caravan. Inaddition he tried to get information out of a criminal by means of a game of chance "Heads up, you get to keep yours" until Batman stops him.
- Sounds like WP:OR to me to assume it's a slow change; the 'I make my own luck' implied confidence and self-assurance, he manipulated the conditiosn of the flips, knowing it would come out heads. There's no slow change, it's a bluff. ThuranX (talk) 04:57, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- No, it's not. There was a long discussion about this on the talk page of the movie. ThuranX (talk) 15:05, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
It is very obvious. First of all he doesn't move when he dies. Second they have a memorial for him and say Harvey was, quite a few times. He is dead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 15:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
It's not obvious if people think he's alive. Movement does not constitute life nor his faux memorial service. Eckhart has expressed interest in playing him again. http://www.imdb.com/news/ni0265713/
People can make a conspiracy out of anything. Thus, where would we be if everything was "neutral"? The fact that it's suggested that he dies should pretty much end this debate unless one of the cast/crew members of The Dark Knight says otherwise. Geeky Randy (talk) 00:07, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- or you could just go and read up on this at the main discussion at TDK, like we keep saying, including citation that EMma Thomas, produceer, described the scene as ambiguous. ThuranX (talk) 20:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that the article states about his coin: "It was damaged in the explosion that disfigured Dent." Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it actually damaged in the explosion that killed Rachel Dawes?? He gave the coin to her when he entered the police van. Batman got the coin from the site of the explosion and left it on Harvey Dent's hospital table...???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 01:02, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
- As if it needs reiterating... clearly Dent need not be dead; Batman fell from the same height (albeit in armor) and survived. The eulogy was for Dent's work, possibly for Dent himself (who has after all been all-but-destroyed by the emergence of Two-Face). Does anyone have the novelisation - and can they check to see whether there's any internal rationale for Bruce/Batman returning Harvey's coin to him...? It was clearly defaced in the explosion that killed Rachel, and that kind of reminder clearly didn't help his fragile mental state. It was the Joker who pushed him over the edge, however, and set him on his path of revenge against the police, Gordon and Batman. Notice that he's far enough gone to put his own life at stake during the stand-off. An important character beat. ntnon (talk) 16:29, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
- Nothing citable, but Dent talked about making his own luck, wayne gave it back to him to remind him that he made his own luck and could 'luckily' recover and continue to fight for gotham. It's the counter-point to dent's statement about dying fast or living long enough to become the villain. You won't get a cite for that, though, it's part of the narrative experience. ThuranX (talk) 17:10, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
This is my first time diong this so don't shoot me if i get this wrong. Just bought the Dark Knight companion with the shooting film script it says he dies. Hope this ends debate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Travel8tor (talk • contribs) 12:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
- Nope. The producer specifically stated that it was filmed in a deliberately ambiguous style, to allow filmmakers the option of his return in a later film. Since that came after the script, it's a reliable counterbalance. ThuranX (talk) 17:34, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
- Has DC or WB released such an image outside of the film itself? And no, the much delete one doesn't count. - J Greb (talk) 22:38, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm fairly sure the coin (in The Dark Knight) was defaced in the explosion that killed Dawes - not the "identical" explosion. Because when he got into the car he threw it at her and she caught it and she said "You make your own luck" and then when he found it in the hospital he immediately thought back to that part. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 00:53, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required
This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb (talk) 17:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
recent IP edits about outfit in film
Rcently, an IP has repeatedly added that Two-Face's costume is seen in Batman & robin. He seems to think this means that the movie suggests Two Face lived at the end of Batman Forever, and that such an idea contradicts the ending. However, I have reverted this out. Such a conclusion is his own SYNTH/ OR violation. Arkham might be the best place to keep 'crazy guy' outfits, for research into what makes them crazy, for all we know. There is no valid reason nor proof to support his edits. ThuranX (talk) 00:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- This is wrong. Two-Face died at the end of Batman Forever from a massive fall, and thus would not have been taken to Arkham. Why everyone has such a problem with this, I do not know. However, as the trivial bit that the costumes appeared in the Batman and Robin (campiest movie ever), there is not need to mention that it is flawed that Two-Face's suit appeared there. --22.214.171.124 (talk) 20:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- "Comics Theory of Death 101"
- "Even if we see a body taken to the morgue and an autopsy done, dead is not 'dead'."
- This, in general, also applies to serial television and film. And that's in cases where shown what would normally be an unequivocal death. Two-Face's exit in Batman Forever is not an unequivicable death.
- - J Greb (talk) 20:11, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, who knows. It could be a number of reasons. There is the off chance Two-Face survived. Maybe they like keeping the costumes of famous criminals to study or to put on display. It may have been just a reference to the last movie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 21:55, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Why the change?
I changed the section about his animated series appearances so it'd be more informative...why was it changed back to before? It's all jumbled up and what not, not very much like an encylopedia at all. Son of Kong
I got the same kind of question as you so I'm just going to add to it. I uploaded a (much) better screenshot of Two-Face from TDK, only to see it revised back to the (unseeable) shot from the trailer. It's can't be a copyright thing because to have the shot from the trailer is the same deal. We're trying to help you!-CurlyHayami (talk) 16:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
- Son of Kong, I can't find the edit you made, so I have no idea, but Curly, the shot you used looks like it was from a pirated version of the film. That would make the source illegal, which is a violation of fair-use and several U.S. laws. Once the DVD comes out, we can add a screenshot from the DVD, which is a legal source, but until then, we have to stick to shots from a trailer or promotional pictures. Anakinjmt (talk) 18:20, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Not my diagnosis!
references to Heath Ledger
I removed the an irrelevant mention of Lefger from the article, changing:
- "he later confirmed that, in talks with Nolan before Heath Ledger's death, the director currently considers Two-Face to be dead."
- "he later confirmed that, in talks with Nolan, the director currently considers Two-Face to be dead.
While I understand this was an important and notable aspect about the movie - it's has nothing to do with Two-Face the character, as written. The rationale for removing this is that if someone were to read this 40 years from now - knowing really nothing about the movie - would the first sentence make much sense? No, it's assuming the reader knows about Heath Ledger - but why would they when reading an article about Two-Face? B/c the addition presupposes irrelevant information in order to make sense it is itself irrelevant and unneeded. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 06:04, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
- I'm reverting it, because it gives context to the comments, and that the situation changed drastically after those comments. ThuranX (talk) 04:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Why did Warner Bros. create the error of having Williams (African-American) start as Dent in the Burton series but then Tommy Lee Jones (a caucasian)? How do they explain Dent suddenly changing races? Why couldn't the keep consistent? Emperor001 (talk) 22:55, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
- It's not an 'error', it's recasting. It's hollywood, it's a business, and they made a business decision. Not much has been written about it, but I'd suggest the old 'bigger name = more box office money' theory, rather than anythign sinister. ThuranX (talk) 17:15, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Dark Knight image
Maybe the image of Eckhart's Two-Face should be changed as it only shows his "clean" side?
- This has been an on going issue. To date, DC and Warner Brothers haven't released an image of the scared side outside of the theatre. Or at least none that anyone has been able to provide a solid source for.
- Right now the only source for an image would be a pirated capture from the film. Which will get removed from the article and deleted as a violation of copyright.
- The DVD of the film is slated for release on December 9th. At that point, it would be reasonable to believe that a cap from the officially released DVD can be made and uploaded. I the image still looks like a pirate cap (grainy, distorted, or the like) it will likely still get tossed in favor of the current image. - J Greb (talk) 18:20, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- In lieu of a cap from the DVD? It looks like it, but with 2 or 3 caveats:
- Just the bottom 1/2 of the before/after. The article here isn't dealing with the technical aspects of the film at all. (This may be a stretch since the full image was taken from Cinefex where it was illustrating the process.)
- The FUR should source back to the issue of Cinefex, just like Image:Two-face before and after.jpg does.
- And the FUR should also include a pointer to Two-face before and after.jpg as the full image.
- It's also likely that after the 9th, someone is going to put up a "crisper" image. - J Greb (talk) 00:33, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- In lieu of a cap from the DVD? It looks like it, but with 2 or 3 caveats:
needs editing, that's all other media versions... it probably isn't even needed at all since it's smack dab in the midst of "official comic continuity"
Wording confuses me
"Falcone has corrupt Assistant District Attorney Fields disfigure Dent with sulfuric acid."
I can't determine which person threw acid on his face with the above "statement".
if Fields threw acid on Dent, then it should be something more like: "Falcone, who corrupted Assistant District Attorney Fields, persuaded him to disfigure Dent with sulfuric acid". 188.8.131.52 (talk) 14:44, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
- In this situation, "corrupt" is an adjective referring to Fields, not a misconjugated verb. The sentence is technically correct, although I agree that it could be rephrased to be clearer. Pumpkinking0192 (talk) 03:02, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
Too many images?
I disagree with the info tag claiming there are too many images. There have been several portrayals of Two-Face in the media, and the article supplies a sufficient amount of those portrayals. The article, in total, contains six images, all of which are relevant in explaining the topic. Soren121 (talk) 23:20, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
- I have to agree. 6 images doesn't seem excessive. I found the edit that added the 'too many photos' tag. Edit done by Sharp962 I suggest asking Sharp962(talk) as he added the cleanup or -5-(talk) as he edits this wiki page quite often. --Triesault (talk) 16:35, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
- I agree that the tag could probably be removed now.-5- (talk) 17:07, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
- The images used are non-free images, all of which fall under fair-use. The question is does a character such as Two-Face need 7 pictures, pictures that illustrate an aspect of the character that cannot be conveyed thru words. The answer seems to be 'no.' The first image in the fictional character biography "Dent gets a faceful of acid..." clearly could be illustrated without the image, the second image "Cover art for the second printing of Detective Comics #818 (April 2006), by Simone Bianchi" does not comment on any aspect of the accompanying text" and would serve as a blatant fair-use violation. The actor versions of Two-Face are agruable cases. Detective Comics #66, being a full panel could be considered a copyright violation as it is a reduplication of the original intended purpose of the text. In short, there are clear areas to that could be trimmed. I'm not saying TAKE EVERY IMAGE OUT, but the number of images is clearly not a reflection of minimal-use, and thus not fair-use.-Sharp962 (talk) 23:23, 16 March 2011 (UTC).
- I agree that the tag could probably be removed now.-5- (talk) 17:07, 15 March 2011 (UTC)