Talk:William Ewart Gladstone/Archive 1

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Archive 1

1867 Reform Act

The article seems to go off on a tangent in laying out the details of Disraeli's Reform Act 1867. I don't see what relevance this has in a biographical page on Gladstone? - Johnbull 17:01, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Arms of W. E. Gladstone

On the article is a picture of a coat of arms attributed as belonging to W. E. Gladstone. As Gladstone never took a peerage, and presumably wouldn't have had a coat of arms already, is this attribution accurate. I thought the coat of arms would be that of his son Herbert Gladstone when he became a Viscount. Anyone know AllanHainey

He lives in my familys castle, the Hawarden birth rite. My name is Hardin now, but then it was Hawarden ----RobertHardin

I've found out that the coat of arms was actually his afthers (a baronet) which passed to WEG's elder brother on their fathers death. Accordingly I've removed the image. AllanHainey 08:30, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Rock

His speech on the Gladstone Rock in Snowdonia was important I understand, and the rock is a bit of a landmark. I don't have a photo to hand but it might be useful, along with a mention of the speech which according to a quick Google was a "defining moment in Welsh Liberalism". Coriolise 17:25, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Article name

Why is this here when (if Wikipedia is excluded from the search) both "William Gladstone" and "W. E. Gladstone" get more Google hits than "William Ewart Gladstone"? Proteus (Talk) 15:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

As no money bill had been rejected by Lords for over two hundred years, a furore arose over this vote. The next year, Gladstone included the abolition of paper duties in a Finance Bill in order to force the Lords to accept it, and accept it they didItalic text.

Date of resigning

The article says Gladstone gave his final speech on March 1, and "resigned two days later" - meaning March 3. The template says he was PM until March 2. Which is true? Dove t. 15:28, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Disraeli's Funeral?

'When Disraeli died, Gladstone proposed a state funeral, but Disraeli's will asked for him to be buried next to his wife'

I don't quite follow this, why does this not allow for state funeral? is it referring to Disraeli's or Gladstone's wife? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.111.156 (talk) 06:48, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Disraeli asked to by buried beside his ex wife, but i agree this isn't really relevant to an article on Gladstone. 88.104.70.155 (talk) 12:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

First Ministry

"Thirdly, laws that prevented people from acting freely to improve themselves were reformed." This seems a bit vague, maybe examples of policies through which he tried to extablish a 'meritocracy' would be more helpful. For example Civil Service and Army reforms. 88.104.70.155 (talk) 12:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Gladstone and prostitutes

This article [1] asserts that,

"William Gladstone, the on-again, off-again British prime minister for most of the second half of the 19th century, famously liked to walk the streets at night, counseling prostitutes to a more wholesome life. ...

Gladstone wasn't a compulsive streetwalker for virtue all those years: He was, in fact, an assiduous whoremonger [patron of prostitutes]."

I have to admit that this sounds somewhat more likely to me than that he was a compulsive reformer of prostitutes.

Is there any kind of evidence to support or contradict this uncomplementary interpretation of Gladstone's activities? -- Writtenonsand 03:26, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Gladstone didn't use the services of Prostitutes, his charity work in meeting with & trying to persuade prostitutes to give up that life is well documented over his lifetime. There was once an assertion made in a book that Gladstone used the prostitutes he met but there was a court case over the claims & the jury threw them out, on the basis of the (large volume of) evidence, expressing its belief in the high moral character of WEG. I had previously put this in the article but It must've been removed, possibly by the same vandal who added the above comments, I'll see if I can repair it. AllanHainey 08:29, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

My misunderstanding, I see that you were referring to an external article not to vandalism of our article. Details of WEG's reform work & the court case are still there. AllanHainey 08:34, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks -- Writtenonsand 15:23, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I believe the relationship with prostitutes is more complex than he being a whoremonger, or he being a pure reformer. His diaries are littered with references to temptation and self-flagellation. His intent may have been reform but he felt guilty, and so it is reasonable to assume his behaviour was not entirely whiter than white 82.42.132.25 (talk) 23:14, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

He was perfectly well aware that it was his sexual urges which were driving him to seek out prostitutes and talk to them - but he did not have physical relations with them. It's the sort of thing a mediaeval saint would have done! In old age he told his son (a CofE clergyman) that he had never committed "infidelity to the marriage bed". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.192.0.10 (talk) 12:57, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Nonconformist?

Gladstone was absolutely not a nonconformist. He was a high Anglican and this fact had a huge bearing on his life and beliefs. The error makes me worry about the veracity of the whole article.

Agreed, I have no idea how that got in there. Mackensen (talk) 19:41, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Heavens, we've been claiming that since 2001 [2]. That's rather embarrassing, I don't know how it is that no one ever caught that. Mackensen (talk) 19:46, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Under Religion, in the box, it still claims he was a Low Church Anglican, which he, well, wasn't. 82.42.132.25 (talk) 23:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

He was brought up an Evangelical though, wasn't he - and then became High Church as a young man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.192.0.10 (talk) 09:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Bag & baggage: source & spelling

What is the source of this quotation? There are at least two spelling mistakes in that splendid list Their Zaptiehs and their Mudirs, their Bimbashis and Yuzbachis, their Kaimakans and their Pashas, one and all, bag and baggage.... That should be Yuzbashis and Kaimakams. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 09:38, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Done I've corrected the spelling—but a reference is still needed. --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:44, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Death?

The article says he died of "senility". One does not die of senility, although complications from that could contribute. It also mentions just above about how he transported a lot of his library himself with a wheelbarrow just a few years earlier. That would seem to indicate a certain level of health. It says "not cancer as often reported." I have seen that reported. There is no citation for the senility comment, either. I'm going to change it in a few days if no one can cite it. Bigmac31 (talk) 16:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Laytent Homosexuality

It is believed by the eminent Psychologist and Art Historian, at the University of Manchester UK, Dr Anna Dezeuze that Gladstone was if fact a Latent Homosexual. she puts forward a very convincing argument for this in her book 'The hidden Homosexuality of Political and artistic figures' of 1986. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.150.238 (talk) 15:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

'Laytent'? I supposed he must have lay somewhere. Dr Dezueze's a surrealist, I understand. So she may have been joking. --OhNoPeedyPeebles (talk) 16:01, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Other media?

Maybe mentioning that he appears in the Bartimaeus trilogy would not be such a bad idea. 77.111.65.199 (talk) 17:04, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Biographies

I removed Lucy's biographies because they are not notable to Gladstone. The explanatory bibliographies in Shannon and Matthew's biographies of Gladstone (two of the leading Gladstone scholars) do not mention Lucy's writings. There is no need for Wikipedia to list all biographies of Gladstone nor to include Lucy's, which have been forgotten by the public and ignored by academics. I can't help feeling the Wikipedia editor who re-added them only did so because he created the Wikipedia page on Lucy, and not because these biographies have any substantive value in learning about Gladstone. I therefore propose to delete them.--Johnbull (talk) 20:29, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

It's been over a week with no reply, so I'm removing them.--Johnbull (talk) 18:34, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Influence over Italy

The following passage seems to hurt the sensitivity:

"After visiting Naples in 1850, Gladstone began to support Neapolitan opponents of the Bourbon rulers: his "support" consisted of a couple of letters that he sent from Naples to the Parliament of London, describing the "awful conditions" of the Kingdom of Southern Italy and claiming that "it is the negation of God erected to a system". These letters, containing a long list of absurd lies and propagandistic inventions (cit. J. Gondon, C. MacFarlane, Confutazioni alle lettere del signor Gladstone (http://books.google.com/books?id=3iN8bj_SaxcC&dq=Confutazioni+alle+lettere+del+signor+Gladstone&pg=PA1&ots=yiypTTfsnb&sig=25ADE429a2zO-iw62rZ4Xj5nxao&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fsourceid%3Dnavclient%26hl%3Dit%26ie%3DUTF-8%26rlz%3D1T4SUNA_it___IT212%26q%3DConfutazioni%2Balle%2Blettere%2Bdel%2Bsignor%2BGladstone&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title#PPA19,M1) ), provoked sensitive reactions in the whole Europe, and prepared the path to the invasion and annexion of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies by the Kingdom of Sardinia in 1860, with the following foundation of modern Italy."

Since it contains important informations but it "lacks of balance", I invite anyone to rephrase it.

Rephasing what is one sided tosh with little basis in fact is one of the more pointless activities I could ever imagine doing. - Galloglass 21:23, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

The book that I've cited (with the link to the full version on Google Books) is the "basis" of the information that I propose (and of the very negative judgement that I have on Gladstone).

By the way, I'll delete the adjectives "absurd" and "propagandistic", that can sound like useless insults, and I expect you to give a positive contribution to this part of the article, instead of erasing it and ignoring my petition. Wousfan 17:59, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

--89.41.79.76 (talk) 14:37, 8 September 2009 (UTC)aasdfd

Article name

One normally sees Gladstone referred to by his initials W. E. Gladstone or his full name William Ewart Gladstone, and not just his first name. I've therefore moved the article from William Gladstone. Opera hat (talk) 23:52, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

I do not think such a move should have been made without discussion. While it does not seem clear to me that the decision was *wrong* (my research shows a pretty even split between "William Gladstone" and "William Ewart Gladstone"), nonetheless, it should not have been done unilaterally. Rhindle The Red (talk) 00:56, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Sapir-Whorf

According to the article Sapir-Whorf, Gladstone did linguistic research into colour terminology. Is this true? If so, we need more info. If it's a different Gladstone, we need to break the hyperlink between the two articles. 86.181.64.208 (talk) 21:47, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

The same guy. A Homeric scholar who investigated the colour vocabulary of ancient Greek. Lachrie (talk) 17:15, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

New file File:Gladstone's Cabinet of 1868 by Lowes Cato Dickinson.jpg

Recently the file File:Gladstone's Cabinet of 1868 by Lowes Cato Dickinson.jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. Dcoetzee 01:40, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Clicking on the picture of Edward Cardwell takes you to the article for Baron Carlingford. How do I fix this? Drutt (talk) 04:49, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Faith

Why has all mention of Gladstone's strong christian faith been removed, given that it informed many of his policies and speeches? I feel there should be a section on it. Mindstar 14:54, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree it informed many of his actions and was the base of everything he did in Ireland 88.104.70.155 (talk) 12:15, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Historiand emphasize his religion so I added a section, based on text I wrote for Citizendium Citizendium edits. Rjensen (talk) 08:26, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

His work on Homer

The article should mention Gladstone's research on Homer, published in 1858. At the time the work attracted much attention, and some observations in made (in particular, about the perception of color in ancient Greece) are important scientific breakthroughs.

דב ט. (talk) 10:21, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Opposition to votes for women.

According to the British Museum, around 1870, Gladstone opposed a bill introduced by Richard Pankhurst which came close to giving votes for women. Suffragette defaced penny 1903

Thirty three years before, Emmeline's husband had presented the first Women's Suffrage Bill to Parliament, which did well in the Commons, until Prime Minister Gladstone had declared himself against it.
I have no fear lest the woman should encroach upon the power of the man. The fear I have is, lest we should invite her unwittingly to trespass against the delicacy, the purity, the refinement, the elevation of her own nature, which are the present sources of its power.

i.e. he thought they would become less feminine! I believe this is a reference to the Women's Disabilities Removal Bill of 1875 but the dates don't match exactly. Could someone with more knowledge than I have add some details as this seems to be an important omission? Should the Women's Disabilities Removal Bill have an article? JRPG (talk) 10:19, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Something wrong with the infobox?

To be clear which section I am referring to I am quoting it. the wiki link on "The Marquess of Salisbury" doesn't direct to a person. I've been going through the PMs in chronological order and this link breaks the flow. Also, just as an aside, it's very hard to click through all of the PMs when some of them serve more than once :S

"23 April 1880 – 9 June 1885 Preceded by Benjamin Disraeli Succeeded by The Marquess of Salisbury" SmallEditsForLife (talk) 08:20, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

New Article

I created the article Studies on Homer and the Homeric Age to discuss Gladstone's publication. Hopefully, someone can work a link to this famous work into this article. Remember (talk) 12:33, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Religion

The religion section is heavily biased, with little support from evidence. First of all, conscience isn't the opposite of authority, for instance: evangelicals of that period placed authority in the Bible as a whole, High Church devotees placed more emphasis on the authority of the New Testament. But more pertinently, I can see little support for the view that by returning to evangelicalism he was becoming more conscientious. He supported Home Rule for Ireland, something evangelicals typically had little time for. It can be said he was more in favour of individual conscience to choose one's religion, rather than associating his conscience with any one religious outlook. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.168.188.213 (talk) 14:31, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Cause of death

I restored an reverted edit purely it appeared to a reference to a genuine book & hence not OR though I don't have access to a copy of said book. Please feel free to correct if I've made a mistake. Regards JRPG (talk) 23:49, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I trimmed out useless details and followed the one-vol edition of Matthews Rjensen (talk) 00:18, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Surname pronunciation

The article states his name is pronounced "stoʊn", as in "stone" to rhyme with "alone". No historian, documentary, historically-accurate television drama, or acquaintance I have ever heard pronounces it this way. They pronounce it "Gladstən", almost like a cross between the words "stun" and "stern" (British English pronunciation). I have also met Scottish people with this surname (no relation) and they pronounce it "Gladstən" too. Is there a citation on this stoʊn business? Thanks. 2.28.183.61 (talk) 01:35, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Infobox overload

Like many articles on politicians, this one has an infobox which seems to be heavily overloaded with clutter. MOS:INFOBOX tells us "An infobox is a panel, usually in the top right of an article, next to the lead section (in the desktop view), or at the very top of an article (in mobile view), that summarizes key features of the page's subject." The important words here are "key features", i.e. not a list of everything listable. If, for example, anyone wants the information about predecessors/successors (which cannot be conceived of as 'key features'), it's set out more legibly and comfortably in the templates at the bottom of the article. Similarly, the names of all his children and (imo) his alma mater are not 'key features' of his life. I would welcome opinion on this with a view to tidying the box up and making it a useful quick reference, not an eyesore.--Smerus (talk) 07:50, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

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"Gladstones"

Wikimandia, thanks for your edit about Gladstone's surname. It piqued my curiosity, and I found my way to the article on his father, Sir John Gladstone, 1st Baronet, which states: "Once he had settled in Liverpool [in 1787], Gladstones dropped the final "s" from his surname, although this was not legally regularised by letters patent until 1835." Is your source totally unambiguous that all of John Gladstone's children were born with the surname "Gladstones"? If John Gladstone had dropped the "s" in the 1780s, it seems possible that William Gladstone (born 20 years later) never had the "s" on his name. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 16:00, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

It would have been unusual if their births were not registered with their father's legal surname, although I suppose it's possible. In 1835, the 1st Baronet changed the family surname (Burkes says it was by royal license, 10 February 1835), meaning he changed it for the whole family. He had to go through this process merely to drop one letter from his name, which shows how strict they were. —Мандичка^YO 😜 23:00, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Ivar the Boneful: You are right - I searched on Ancestry and found his baptism under William Ewart Gladstone, born to Ann and John Gladstone. I think this was their only birth registration then, so we can assume he was never known as Gladstones. Thank you for pointing this out. I assumed the date of the royal license meant they had that name until then. I've edited the article as to his birth name. I could not find the notice of the royal license but kept it in there that the father changed the name. Gladstones is a common Scottish name and this is why William Ewart had the Gladstones coat of arms. —Мандичка^YO 😜 23:31, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Slavery

Gladstone's wealth came from West Indian slaves. He talked about improving their horrible conditions but opposed emancipation in 1833. When it came he took the lead in cashing in--the government bought all his family slaves. He loudly supported slavery-based Confederacy in 1861-62. See Roland Quinault, "Gladstone and slavery." The Historical Journal 52.2 (2009): 363-383. Quinault argues that " His stance on slavery echoed that of his father, who was one of the largest slave owners in the British West Indies, and on whom he was dependent for financial support...."he believed that the best way to end the slave trade was by persuasion, rather than by force, and that conviction influenced his attitude to the American Civil War and to British colonial policy. As leader of the Liberal party, Gladstone, unlike many of his supporters, showed no enthusiasm for an anti-slavery crusade in Africa. His passionate commitment to liberty for oppressed peoples was seldom evident in his attitude to slavery." Black Lives Matter in British imperial history and Gladstone was a main player. Rjensen (talk) 22:11, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

That's a selective quotation, because the latter half goes on to talk about how he followed his father's lead in opposing the slave trade (if not slavery itself). Gladstone's attitude to slavery is incredibly complex and riddled with contradiction: he did support the Confederacy, but he was also explicitly in favour of gradual emancipation from the start of his career (this is detailed in the Quinault article). We need to be careful that we don't oversimplify his position. Citing Black Lives Matter is indicative: we should be adopting an historical approach, rather than skewing in line with contemporary morality. Either way, let's not have 'Gladstone opposed the abolition of slavery' in the second sentence of his bio as previous. This is highly misleading and would suggest this is what he was known for. MaxJewellEsq (talk) 22:11, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I suggest he did not really support gradual emancipation--he wanted it postponed indefinitely. He said he would approve it AFTER the slaves had completely modernized--and he made no effort to speed that process. He did oppose the slave trade because bringing fresh slaves into the West Indies would lower the value of slaves the Gladstones already owned. To quote Quinault: "He accepted that slavery should be abolished, but argued that physical emancipation should be preceded by moral emancipation through the adoption of a education and the inculcation of 'honest and industrious habits'. Then 'with the utmost speed that prudence will permit, we shall arrive at that exceedingly desired consummation, the utter extinction of slavery." [Quinault, "Gladstone and Slavery" 2009 online at https://www.jstor.org/stable/40264175 pp 366-67]

New article on Gladstone's Foreign Policy

I propose to create a new article on Gladstone's Foreign Policy entitled Foreign Policy of William Ewart Gladstone. The topic is mentioned briefly many times in articles on Gladstone and related topics, but is never brought together. The new article will have excepts from Wikipedia plus new material based on scholarly books and articles. For example besides the lengthy biographies we have such books as Paul Knaplund, Gladstone's foreign policy (1935); Paul Hayes, Modern British Foreign Policy: The Twentieth Century: 1880–1939 (1978); R.W. Seton-Watson, Disraeli, Gladstone and the eastern question (1935); and Marvin Swartz, The politics of British foreign policy in the era of Disraeli and Gladstone (1985) Rjensen (talk) 19:58, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

I have started the new article at Foreign Policy of William Ewart Gladstone and would appreciate feedback. Rjensen (talk) 05:28, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Partition

The Second Home Rule Bill did not propose partition for Ireland. That was proposed in the Third Home Rule Act (1914) and became a reality in the Fourth Home Rule Act, also called the Government of Ireland Act, 1920. JTD 05:35 Feb 9, 2003 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jtdirl (talk • contribs) 05:35, 9 February 2003 (UTC)