Talk:Women in music/Archive 1

Archive 1

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Geographical bias

This is a good article, but it has a huge geographical bias, with too much focus on Western classical music in the lead and Western music in general. It should either be globalized (I'd put a {{globalize}} tag on it, but I really don't like tags on top of articles) or should be renamed "Women in Western music". The latter seems a more practical solution.--Cattus ^talk 14:49, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

Efforts have been made to try to cover popular music and traditional music, both in the lead and the article. You may note that songwriting appears as the first section, rather than composing (music). As well, there are sections on the role of women in jazz, rock music, and so on. There is a section on non-Western music, but as with the entire Wikipedia project, this content needs to be expanded.

Thanks for your input!OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 20:07, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Current editing dispute regarding article quotations

@Biancachavez91, Toddst1, Jim1138, GeneralizationsAreBad, and Weeziefhorn23: There is currently a content dispute regarding certain quotations that highlight gender stereotypes and seem to reinforce normative gender roles in this article. I've fully protected this page as per editing dispute policy so as to encourage discussion on this matter. From my initial assessment of this situation, I urge all parties to consider intersectionality as a model through which to view these important issues. This article itself covers more than just gender; after all, it is entitled "women in music". Please consider both the positives and negatives of having the disputed material on the page and what value it adds to the article and the general discourse of women in music. Additionally, I would like everyone to consider the categories under which they personally fall, and how these categories and their unique intersections inform their own perspective. I hope we can all come to a satisfactory solution on this matter. Airplaneman ✈ 06:38, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Relevant discussions: User talk:Toddst1#Women in music and User talk:Biancachavez91#Women in music. Airplaneman ✈ 06:43, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Comment Not being a woman, I feel uncomfortable arguing for or against the inclusion of this material. 1) The content is unbelievably sexist. It distracts from the article's main topic. 2) It would seem to epitomize the misogamy which women are up against to be successful. Jim1138 (talk) 07:08, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

There's two paragraphs of misogynistic remarks, without any quotations presenting the opposite point of view. Just presenting the quotations without any discussion might lead the reader to assume that the point of view that women should not be conductors is being presented as fact rather than as the opinion of the people being quoted. I think the number of quotations needs to be reduced and then balanced with some commentary from reliable sources. I found this article this article, and this article for starters. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 12:43, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Not being a woman does not disqualify anyone's opinion. That said, I agree the number of quotations should be reduced and I'd like to see the opinions completely removed. Toddst1 (talk) 13:22, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

I fully agree with the above that the section should be trimmed considerably, since the misogynistic quotes do not seem to add much (if anything).The sources cited above by Diannaa look promising and should definitely be incorporated into the article. GAB^gab 13:34, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Hi everyone, Thanks for your excellent points. I was part of the team that worked on the text in question. The goal was show readers to show readers that although gender discrimination/sexism prevented women from becoming conductors in the past, in the 20th century and 21st century, notable women conductors have won professional conducting jobs at the top orchestras; and, that even in the 2000s, women conductors continue to face sexism and gender discrimination. To demonstrate point number 2, several notable male conductors' sexist statements are quoted, including the head of the Paris conservatory. A good solution to your concerns could be to place a comment that these quotes represent the opinions of the individuals. We can also add the rebuttals made by women conductors/music journalists to these sexist quotes. For example, Marin Alsop commented to a newspaper about the ridiculousness of the Paris conservatoire head's claim that women are not able to deal with the physical demands of conducting; she pointed out that a conducting baton only weighs a few grams. We could also remove the quote boxes and replace them with a more of an overview statement about women and conducting, rather than having the biased/sexist quotes from two male musicians. Here is a proposed new version:OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 19:02, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Adding new version proposed below, as no comments (positive or negative) were posted here. ThanksOnBeyondZebrax • TALK 13:21, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Removal of bios under 20th and 21st century section

I have just removed quite bit of text from the 20th and 21st century section of this article. This consisted of substantial bios of five female musicians. This content was fine, just misplaced and off-topic. This page is about women in music, and is not a suitable place to include details such as individual musicians' birth dates, alma maters, etc. The page would become unwieldy and useless if it included bios of every female musician - that content should go in individual people's articles.

This content did include several tidbits of information which are relevant to the topic (gender-related milestones reached by these five women), and someone may want to integrate those into the text. Jessicapierce (talk) 09:05, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi User talk:Jessicapierce. I think you have an excellent point. The biographies should be trimmed and shortened. I will trim them. I was part of the team that started off the article. We used biographies of selected notable women composers in each historical era to illustrate the activities and role of women composers during each era. In an ideal world, it would be great to have a scholar's published synthesis (e.g., "In the Renaissance era, women composers generally composed XYZ pieces and wrote ABC-style songs".). However, we could not find any sweeping comments like this. The overwhelming majority of published music history focuses on male composers. Thus, as a way of giving the reader a sense of the professional achievements of women composers in each period, we handpicked a few of the most well-known women composers. Thanks for your ideas and suggestions for improving the article.OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 13:27, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks so much for the kind explanation - makes perfect sense! Jessicapierce (talk) 17:14, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Notable songwriters section

This section doesn't add anything to the article as it doesn't say how they were notable or why. As such I think it should be removed or at least moved to a separate list. Toddst1 (talk) 19:01, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Addition to the Jazz Music Section

I have added more detail to the Jazz Music in the 20th-century section. I feel that this section was lacking in information and more information was able to be added. I discussed the influence that jazz music had in the 20th-century for women like an increase in jobs, post-war equality, and the ability to be more open about sexuality. With all of this, I also included more monumental women that were in the Jazz during this time and the impact they had on the genre. I also included some information about the first jazz musical, Showboat, that was created due to the impact and influence Jazz music had on society due to all the women working in the industry. These are some of the additions I chose to add on in this section. I believe these additions will help the page become stronger and more understandable with the impact women had in this genre of music. jk2001 (talk) 20:03, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Addition to Country Music section

When initially looking at the Women in Music article, my attention was drawn to the Country Music section. I noticed it had a lack of information on female artists and their achievements throughout their careers. Most of the content that was written in this section discussed men and their impact on the industry due to topics such as racism and sexism. There was little to no information actually discussing successful female artists. I decided it would be beneficial to add information on three highly influential musicians. This included Dolly Parton, Carrie Underwood, and Miranda Lambert, all of whom are notable figures within the industry. I included details such as projects and awards that they have earned as female role models. I believe that by adding this information into the article, I was able to help make it stronger and more educational. The additional content that I provided could be useful to the reader. --Kimbadonic (talk) 00:19, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Peer Review: Great Wiki Stage 3! Everything was unbiased and on topic. The research was all correct and referred back to the topic correctly.Kamryncrossley1 (talk) 18:46, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Addition to Black Women in Music section

In the existing Black Women of music, I noticed there was not enough information about black women in music. The existing article did not talk about any present artists in the music industry, such as Beyonce. I also noticed a lack of information on black women in music and their achievements. I decided to add information that would be beneficial to black women in music and their achievements as well as their impact. I chose to discuss the achievements of Whitney Houston and Beyonce Knowles. These are women who have made a crucial impact on black women in the music industry. Their achievements show this and that is why I chose to discuss their success over the years. I included their album sales, awards, and tours to show people how far they have come. I believe this information adds to the article and makes it more educational. The sources I have added can be beneficial to readers and allow them to do further research towards these women's impact on black women of music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carenafay (talk • contribs) 02:52, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Addition to the Jazz Music Section

I decided to add to the jazz music section because I realized that there were so many people that did not get mentioned that deserved recognition. I felt that the accomplishments of these women deserve to have a place in this article because some of them worked with many influential people that we all know of today. I also added a small portion of problems these women in the jazz era faced, like sexual harassment, and harsh criticism. However, I did not expand on it because I felt it would not add to the article's purpose, only distract from it. The most influential woman I added to the page was Nona Gendryx because she worked with world famous singer, Prince, but yet she was not even mentioned in the article. On top of this, I talked about how there were many jazz musicians that needed recognition, and not just the singers like the other sections did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kylieweiss (talk • contribs) 03:06, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Peer review: It is clear that she cited reliable information on her Wikipedia page and also she noted that within Wiki Stage 3 in paragraph three. When it comes to using neutral words, Kyle made sure not to state anything that would sway the reader and keep everything middle of the line. None of her comments should be removed as her information was as opinionated as it gets. Kylie did a good job in staying neutral throughout her article that she posted on Wikipedia regarding women's role in jazz music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lyaq11 (talk • contribs) 18:39, 28 March 2019 (UTC)