Talk:Yin-style baguazhang

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I created this page after it was brought up that the original Baguazhang article was very biased towards the Yin Style System. All future edits of Yin Style content should be placed here, instead of on the main Baguazhang page.

I also brought over all the Yin Style Baguazhang information from the He Jinbao page. Now that page can focus on He Jinbao, and this page can focus on the style of martial arts over which he is the grandmaster.

TO DO

• General adding of information...also, cleaning up the mess left over from the two articles this one was created out of. Much of the old He Jinbao page's information was copied verbatim from an article in T'ai Chi magazine (the article itself was fairly biased as well).

Maintainerzero 21:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Strong Bias

The Yin style includes many sub-branches, and although one branch (Xie Peiqi's branch) considers He Jinbao to be the "grandmaster," many other branches do not (including branches made by Men Baozhen's older students, but also others). To avoid a bias, this page should include more information about the other Yin style branches (I will try to add some, but there should be more).

Edededed 05:27, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

While you are certainly correct that there are additional styles which claim direct lineage from Yin Fu, I am not aware of any of those systems which refer to themselves as 'Yin Style Baguazhang'. Therefore, I would not consider it biased to say that 'Yin Style Baguazhang' refers to the He Jinbao system. Placing every system descended from Yin Fu on this page would not be possible, as there are literally hundreds in existence. I would say that those systems belong on their own page, clarifying that though they are descended from Yin Fu, they refer to themselves as 'X Style Baguazhang'. I haven't changed any of your additions or anything, but would like to continue this discourse before settling on the issue.

Also, if we decide to keep your changes, we will need additional sources for that information.

-- Maintainerzero 15:06, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, most of them call themselves "Yin style Baguazhang" (or 尹式八卦掌); note for example Yin Style Baguazhang VCDs by Wang Shangzhi (http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/store.html), Yin Style Baguazhang taught in NYC by Novell Bell (his site: http://www.blacktaoist.com - you can even watch him and his students perform on YouTube if you like), a book called "Yin Style Baguazhang" (尹式八卦掌) was written by Zhang Lie in the '80s (a translation sold here: http://www.plumflower.com/ba_gua_zhang_2_.htm); there is an interview with He Puren in Chinese (here: http://www.21wulin.com/files/read.php?ID=909) talking about him learning Yin Style Baguazhang, etc. None of these guys have anything to do Men Baozhen or Xie Peiqi; yet they still say that they practice "Yin Style Baguazhang." Regarding other branches from Men Baozhen, I own a book called 尹式八卦掌釈秘 ("Secrets of Yin Style Baguazhang") by Liu Yongchun (劉永椿), a disciple of an older (than Xie) disciple of Men Baozhen; the book does not include Xie Peiqi in its lineage charts, nor does it have a similar curriculum to that which is currently taught by He Jinbao (I am not disputing what Xie says (it may be true, but we don't know who is right), only noting that there is more than one opinion about things out there).

I think that having a separate page for all these "substyles" would be rather difficult, since they are all called the same thing (Yin Style Baguazhang) - most are quite similar in technique as well (except for Xie Peiqi and Gong Baotian's styles, in my opinion). As for sources, well, there are those given above, for example, and much more on the web (or in printed books) as well; off the top of my head Novell Bell has links to some of his Yin style teachers (including Xu Shixi, from another branch); some pages talk about Zhu Baozhen and his Yin style lineages (he learned several); Wang Peisheng is another famous teacher who also taught Yin style.

Edededed 04:39, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Good Information! Going for the most accurate and complete encyclopedic content possible, should we then create a different article for the Gong Baotian and Xie Pieqi styles? Rather than dilute the style information of each style, my thought is that we should have a separate article for each subsystem that varies significantly from the norm. Perhaps one called 'Xie Pieqi Line Yin Style Baguazhang' and another 'Gong Baotian Line Yin Style Baguazhang'. For each style with significant amounts of content as well as verifiable sources, splits from the main article seem to make sense to me.

Maintainerzero 16:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Hmm - I dunno, to be fair, Xie Peiqi's line does call itself Yin Style Baguazhang (no particular name to differentiate it), so I guess they might want to be included in the same article. I am not sure what the Gong Baotian line calls itself (I have heard 尹派宮式八卦掌 (Yin style Gong substyle Baguazhang or something like that) or just 宮式八卦掌 (Gong style Baguazhang); some people in English call it Imperial Baguazhang or the like; others call it Baguaquan (八卦拳))... Others consider these subdivisions to be superfluous (because many of these style and substyle names are comparatively recent). In my opinion, I would rather have not-overly-specific articles, so perhaps an article each for the main styles (not substyles) would be good enough. (The Ho Ho Choy style (too specific) page should probably be stuck into the Cheng style page (as a substyle of Cheng), or perhaps changed into a Gao style page (Gao style being a major substyle of Cheng), with a section on Ho Ho Choy's style?) In any case, we do need people to actually write specifics for these styles, so until then we might not have much content (just stubs) :)

Well, lots of things to think about - whatever decision you make, though, will probably be okay, I guess. :D Edededed 01:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

If it is really the case that the Xie Peiqi school is very different from other Yin Fu-lineage schools, then it seems strange to me that the article is written exclusively about Xie Peiqi's style. I feel that it would make more sense to have the main content about the details of the many similar styles, rather than one of the two exceptional styles. Maybe the current content could be moved to a page like [Yin Style Baguazhang (Xie Peiqi line)], or something similar.Helikophis (talk) 14:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I would like to expand in the direction of having Ba Gua Quan (baguaquan) introduced as the lineage term (or at least an alternate term) for the bagua descended from Dong Haichuan through Yin Fu. In our lineage (Yin Fu -> Gong Bao Tian -> Gong Bao Zhai) that's what it is called, and it clearly shares a lot with the lineages that refer to themselves as baguazhang. Beyond just the issue of baguaquan vs. baguazhang terminology, I would also like to introduce information about the structure of the system as it was received by Gong Bao Zhai. I'd like to see some talk here about whether that should be a completely separate article, or if it should be integrated with this one somehow. Ejb816 (talk) 19:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Substyles

This section moved to talk as unreferenced RJFJR (talk) 14:22, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Yin Style has many substyles, some of the lineages of which are given below:

• Dong Haichuan
  • Yin Fu
    • Ma Gui
      • Xie Peiqi
    • Gong Baotian
      • Gong Baozhai

Zhèn Trigram Dragon System and Cheng Style

I think we may want to edit out the section that mentions Dragon being what the Cheng style uses, as that's not wholly accurate. I suspect people say that because of the palm shape we most often see in the Cheng schools, but the physical requirements for the palm shapes are actually quite different and serve different purposes. In the Yin style we see a palm shape that's more heel forward, palm up and out, like lifting. In the Cheng schools it's more triangle guard, knife edge forward.

Also, all of the other animals exist in the Cheng systems, but the information is presented in a different way. The Cheng schools are sort of like the Reader's Digest Condensed versions whereas the Yin style is more encyclopedic. ClaudiaZann (talk) 15:25, 7 May 2014 (UTC)