Talk:Zumbo's Just Desserts

Winner reveal in first paragraph

An editor justified entering the series winner in the first paragraph by citing WP:SPOILER, however that very text includes the following in bullet point 3 of "Why spoiler warnings are no longer used":

3. Sections that frequently contain spoiler warnings—such as plot summaries, episode lists, character descriptions, etc.—were already clearly named to indicate that they contain plot details. Therefore, further disclaimers would be redundant and unnecessary.

This clearly implies, but technically does not require, that such content should be in a "clearly named" section. The first paragraph is obviously not this. Additionally, the comment used to indicate that the reveal should not be removed mentions two television series by name, but those series do not place revealing content in inappropriate sections such as the opening paragraph. To quote:

DO NOT REMOVE WINNER'S NAME FROM LEAD - WIKIPEDIA INCLUDES SPOILERS PER WP:SPOILERS MUCH LIKE OTHER REALITY SEASONS INCLUDING SURVIVOR, BIG BROTHER, ETC

Thus, having such content the opening paragraph, an area typically used for a high-level description of the article, seems awkward and even obnoxious. I moved the questionable content to the Contestants section. Perhaps it should be in another section or its own, but not in the first few sentences. Do not move it back.

As I wrote on your talk page, WP:SPOILER does not detail where spoilers can or can't occur. The third point in SPOILER to which you referred was an explaination of the background as to why the SPOILER guideline exists and how it came to be - not a requirement that sections exist before winner's names. The context of where and how spoilers are incorporated has changed. Several articles for completed series put the winner details in the lead, often in the very first paragraph. Here are just a few examples of this in practice: Survivor: Game Changers, MasterChef (U.S. season 5), Big Brother 19 (U.S.), Dancing with the Stars (U.S. season 20). I suspect you were looking at the series articles for these shows (Survivor (U.S. TV series), Big Brother (U.S. TV series)) rather than the season articles which list the winner. As there was only one season of Zumbo's Just Desserts, there is no need for a separate article for the season. The program aired more than a year ago (at the time of writing) and there is no reasonable need to move such a notable detail. -- Whats new?^(talk) 07:01, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Please describe why such a location seems necessary. It seems clear to me that the spirit of WP:SPOILERS is a call for common sense and makes a case for removal of misused, informal spoiler warnings. While I agree that the text does not explicitly ban summary paragraph spoilers, it also does not state that they must be in the opening paragraph. That an action is not explicitly banned does not justify the action. Would a reasonable person loudly sing the lyrics to "Surfin' Bird" at every restaurant visit, then leave a scathing review no matter the dining experience?

Of course there are other articles among Wikipedia's millions that also do not technically break the letter of the law. There are millions of articles. That said, those seeking general information about a series, e.g. to find whether it meets their interests as my wife did for example, clearly would not want the end revealed in the opening paragraph.

Perhaps a compromise. How about we keep the existing text in the opening paragraph, but label it "Summary and winning entrant"? That complies with the spirit of the WP:SPOILERS content while keeping the text in place.

As MOS:LEAD states: "The lead should identify the topic and summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight." Given the program is a competition, the winner of the competition is very notable, and thus can and should be included in the article summary presented in the lead section. It is no different to listing the winner in the lead of articles on other competitions such as 2018 Boston Marathon or Eurovision Song Contest 2018. By the same logic, you would want to exclude the winners from these types of articles as well, because a reader might want "general information about" the 2018 Boston Marathon "to find whether it meets their interests" but "would not want the end revealed in the opening paragraph" because it would spoil the finish if he/she were to decide to watch it long after the race had been run and won. Zumbo's Just Desserts has also been run and won, as have any number of reality competition series, and per the rationale for why spoiler warnings no longer exist at WP:SPOILER, Wikipedia contains spoilers as it is an encyclopedia. Wikipedia is not a TV guide or preview website - it contains an encyclopedic entry on notable topics, and that includes winners of television shows you might not have watched yet. -- Whats new?^(talk) 00:24, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

The examples above make an interesting point, however this article covers a television series, not an outside event event such as the Boston Marathon. A more specific entry for television us MOS:TVLEAD, which states: "The lead paragraphs of an article should serve both as a quick introduction to the topic, and as a concise overview of the article itself, as per the Lead section style guideline. For example, an article on a television series should begin with basic information about the show, such as when it first premiered, genre(s) and setting, who created/developed the show, its primary broadcasting station (typically the studio that produces the show), and when the show stopped airing (the first airing of the final episode), etc." An example lead is then given which does just that -- provides a high-level overview of the content, without mention of specific events, just as the first paragraph of this article does except for the last sentence in question. Season-specific articles (those I have looked at; there are many) are the same, even those with multiple paragraphs such as The_Simpsons_(season_10).

I am not advocating removal of the content and never have, only that mention of the specific event be moved out of the opening paragraph and into a section that more appropriately contains such details.

I've given you previously television-specific articles which include winners in the opening paragraph, and nothing in TVLEAD precludes this content. As TVLEAD states, "the lead...should serve...as a concise overview of the article itself" which includes its conclusion. The example given is not a competition program, and The Simpsons does not have a focal point or substantive conclusion like a reality competition does. Again, I continue to take the view that there is no issue with the sentence being included. -- Whats new?^(talk) 07:55, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 July 2018

the numbers at the end are wrong; Kate won with 33 not 36 or something like that and Ali lost with 32 not 29. 189.152.80.1 (talk) 06:16, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. --Danski454 (talk) 10:23, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Season split

I've AFC approved Zumbo's Just Desserts (season 1) article. Please move data to that article. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 22:17, 15 January 2020 (UTC)