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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 06:10, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Frédéric Blanc

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  • Reviewed: to come

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 23:15, 5 November 2021 (UTC).

  • Comment (not a review): this specific article, and its creation by proxy for a banned editor, is under discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Gerda Arendt proxying article creation for community-banned user LouisAlain, which has also raised questions about sourcing issues similar to the issues that caused the editor to be banned in the first place. I think the AN discussion needs to come to a conclusion before this can be considered for DYK, and also that any DYK review look very seriously at the sourcing issues (claims of unreliable self-published sources and of sources not verifying the claims they were used to source) discussed at the AN thread. Probably this is going to require that the reviewer be fluent in French. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:15, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
    I removed LouisAlain from the credits because of concerns, because of me taking full responsibility, and because he never cared about them anyway. The thread was closed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:09, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Full review needed. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:09, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
  • Note that the AN discussion has been closed and the issues have been resolved, so there is no more issue here. As for the article itself, the article meets DYK requirements, and close paraphrasing was not detected. A QPQ is still pending. My main issue is the hook; frankly, it does not appeal to a broad audience. Duruflé doesn't appear to be a well-known figure (indeed, this pageviews check shows that her English article has had less than 200 total pageviews over the past 30 days, while her French article has only been viewed 5 times during that same period), and given that the hook is dependent on the connection to her, it's just not working here. Looking at the article, unfortunately I couldn't see any information that would work as a broadly-interesting hook, so unless the article is expanded further and new interesting information is added to the article, I can't see this working out on DYK sadly. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:55, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
  • There was an edit conflict when the above review was published. here is my review which was written at the same time. Storye book (talk) 11:33, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation

QPQ: No - ?
Overall: Another good one from Gerda - thank you. Cathedral organists always knock me out, because the cathedral is the pipe organ's soundbox, so they are playing the building - every stone feels it. So this guy deserves an article. The initial question by David Eppstein has now been resolved. All that remains to complete this nom is the QPQ. Storye book (talk) 11:33, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

  • I would not normally contest a review, and I accept that the above review by Narutolovehinata5 gets priority in the normal DYK process. However I don't agree that the number of online hits received by an organ teacher is a judge of their value or ability. If Mme Durufle's pupil Frédéric Blanc has achieved the position of titular organist at Notre Dame, then as I understand it he is the equivalent of a top film star in the movie business. A cathedral organist has great musical power in the building and in the city, and Notre Dame is one of the greatest cathedrals in the world - with good acoustics to boot. Many subjects covered at DYK appeal to a particular audience as opposed to a general one, and that aspect does not disqualify a DYK nomination. That is why DYK hooks cover such a variety of subjects - something for everyone, eh? I don't think the article is unacceptable unless "expanded further and new interesting information is added" - the article is solidly based, and tells us who the subject is, why he is notable, and what he has achieved. Storye book (talk) 11:33, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
@Storye book: The issue here is that the Notre Dame mentioned in the hook is not the Notre Dame that most people know (i.e. the one that's currently being rebuilt), but a far less famous one that also happens to be in Paris. Had it been the case that he was the organist for the Notre Dame Cathedral (the famous one), I would have actually approved the hook. The issue here is that the Notre Dame mentioned here is a much more obscure one and not the internationally-famous one (note that Notre Dame is a fairly common name for Catholic churches around the world). As for the fame part, Duruflé's obscurity would have been a non-issue had it been the case that Blanc was the organist of the Notre Dame Cathedral and not the one mentioned in this hook, but given that he was actually the organist of a less well-known church, the hook's interestingness is now reliant on the Duruflé connection, and the connection there doesn't make for a broadly interesting hook in this case. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:50, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
  • @Narutolovehinata5: OK, fair enough, I won't argue with that. In that case, what about a new hook about the U.S. masterclasses, in which a mention of some of the university venues should pick up some hits. Taken together, I think his achievements are still interesting and notable. I would very much like to hear his playing of Charles-Marie Widor in the Notre-Dame d'Auteuil - pity we can't put the sound of that in the hook. @Gerda Arendt: Storye book (talk) 12:11, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
Honestly I have some reservations on if such hooks are truly interesting to a broad audience, but I'm open to such a hook if there's really nothing else that could be found about him. If such a hook is to be written, I would suggest focusing on Stanford University specifically since that one's probably the most famous among all the universities mentioned in the hook. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:36, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
I still have reservations if this is broadly interesting, but it appears to be the best option we have at this point, and personally I feel that it's still a better hook than the original. I would however suggest that the hook be slightly revised in some way to clarify that the Notre Dame in question isn't the Cathedral (although admittedly the ambiguity could potentially "trick" readers into checking the article, and by "trick" I mean this in a positive way). I'd like to hear Gerda's thoughts first before approving it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:38, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
I prefer ALT1 to ALTa, the qpq is not done, I have this on the back of my mind with ALTs, but have first an article to write. Please wait until later today. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:26, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, Gerda. I have struck out ALTs 0 and 1a to clarify your choice for admin. Please feel free to un-strike those ALTs if you wish. Storye book (talk) 17:31, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Back. You can probably imagine that I didn't invest much time into thoughts about an article endangered from the start. He is exceptional for improvisation, for having published the memoir of Maurice Duruflé, for having published the improvisations of a colleague (at the Cathedral), on top of being organist at the church which has an organ by the same legendary organ builder as the Cathedral. Madame D. is underrated and would profit more from exposure than her famous husband. If we picture the organ, readers should see at a glance that it isn't the Cathedral's.
Organ of Notre-Dame d'Auteuil
Organ of Notre-Dame d'Auteuil
  • Comment: Gerda Arendt Narutolovehinata5. Please note that Narutolovehinata5 has priority by virtue of posting the first review. But I would like to comment, if I may (re ALT3), that use of Mme Duruflé in a hook would be fine if her article were fine - and it's not, and we have let her down. Her article needs re-writing for neutrality, and it needs citations throughout. The truth of her article is not questioned, and the quality of Mme Duruflé's work is not questioned - but when the article is linked in a hook but is so weakly written, that weakens the reader's respect for her pupil Blanc. So if you want to retain the hook which mentions her, please could you kindly correct her article for neutrality and cite all the paragraphs? Sorry to ask you to do so much when you are so busy, but I think that both she and Blanc are worth the effort. I would attempt it myself, but I cannot speak the required languages, to find and use the right citations.
  • Re ALT2: If we can't have the Mme Duruflé article rescued, then I think ALT2 is a very good hook. I think that people in general don't realise how valuable a reconstruction of improvisation can be. Suppose we lost all recordings of jazz, and only had the basic dots written down? How dull and pointless. Or if we lost all recordings of guitar riffs? But what infuriates me most is the way in which we have lost the Arab inflections and melismas from what we now call plainsong - the empty shell of the improvisation which once existed there. We still have it in sung Islamic prayer, of course, but Europe ignores that (apart from flamenco). So yes, three cheers for Blanc's resurrection of improvisations, and let's hear about it. Just my opinion, which carries no weight, of course. Storye book (talk) 21:33, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
  • I have edited the organ pipes picture to make it lighter, so it works better in a thumbnail. Please see above. Please use it or delete it as you wish. Storye book (talk) 21:44, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
The issue here, and honestly this has been a long-running concern with Gerda's hooks for a while now, is that I'm not convinced that any of these hooks meet the "interesting to a broad audience" criterion. I understand both of you are classical music fans and your opinion is respected, but it has to be remembered that at DYK we write for a wide audience, not just for classical fans. We write and review hooks that are meant not just to appeal to ourselves but to those unfamiliar with the subjects or field in question. We need to ensure that if we write hooks about those involved in classical music, the hooks need to be hooks that will make even a disinterested person care about the subject. I didn't want to bring up pageviews again, but it's been noted a few times by other editors at WT:DYK that Gerda's classical music hooks tend to be among the least-viewed in a set if not the least-viewed. While pageviews aren't everything, something probably does need to change here given that it's been a concern for a while now and some editors (not just me) have expressed reservations about the interestingness of said hooks. Among the two proposals, I think ALT2 is marginally the best option, but the issue, again, is that it seems to be dependent on a connection to a person who apparently just isn't that recognizable of a name. Usually these kind of hooks are interesting and hooky provided that the link is to a recognizable name, but that isn't the case here. DYK hooks are supposed to appeal to the broadest audiences, not the nichest, and that's not what I'm seeing among the proposals made here thus far (note that if we have to go with ALT2, Pierre Cochereau needs a ton of work first as it's almost entirely unreferenced). I'll be honest: I'm starting to lean towards the article just not simply being meant for DYK, and perhaps this is something we need to take in mind, that not every article is meant to be, either because it can't be reasonably expanded to standards or there's just not any suitable material. And really, there's no shame in writing articles that don't make it to DYK, because at the end of the day, our main goal is to expand the encyclopedia and not 12-24 hours of fame. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 21:58, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
Kindly ignore Cochereau for a moment: that a person writes down what another person improvised should - imho - be interesting for some broad audience (which will never everybody, - an estimated 3/4 of our DYK hooks leave me cold.) Now the name is Cochereau, Cathedral organist at Notre-Dame and responsible for the organ's modifications. Let's tell people he's there (and yes, improve his article). If needed we could add his function to a hook, but - back to the beginning - the name of who improvised is rather less important. I don't care about page views (or would write about sex and crime), nor about fame, but I like to make facts known that were not known before. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:26, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
If that's the case, then perhaps the hook could be rewritten as something like: ... that Frédéric Blanc published the reconstruction of improvisations by Pierre Cochereau, a former titular organist at the Notre-Dame de Paris? Personally I think the hook could work provided that Cochereau being a titular organist at the Notre Dame is made clear, since I think that would raise enough eyebrows to make the hook more broadly interesting. Mentioning Cochereau by himself without context makes the hook less appealing IMHO. The exact wording of "Notre-Dame de Paris" could also be subject to change as I wonder if saying some form of "Notre-Dame Cathedral" would avoid confusion and make it clear that it's the cathedral and not the namesake where Cochereau played at. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:34, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
While I see your point, it gives more words in the hook to Cochereau than Blanc, while I tried to explain that the fact is interesting per se, - it's a special skill to remember what someone else improvised, when there is no written anything. - How is that not interesting, regardless who someone else is? - Bedtime. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:45, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
ALT4: ... that Frédéric Blanc, titular organist at the Cavaillé-Coll organ (pictured) of Notre-Dame d'Auteuil in Paris, published Maurice Duruflé' memoirs and writings?
ALT5: ... that Frédéric Blanc won the Paris international organ competition for improvisation, and then became titular organist at the Cavaillé-Coll organ (pictured) of Notre-Dame d'Auteuil in Paris?
He came from Southern France, and made it to the capital. Avoiding the biographies (which should be expanded, and articles on the competitions added, - I wish I could ask LouisAlain. May rudimentary French is not sufficient). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:19, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
  • While not being the prior reviewer here, and knowing that my comment makes no weight, I would like to say that I think that ALTs 4 and 5 are as good as any, and that I would have passed them both as a reviewer. Storye book (talk) 13:44, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
  • @Narutolovehinata5: I really think I should take issue with the above comments regarding your judgemental response to the subject matter and significance of Gerda's articles and of her suggested hooks. That was quite out of order. As I understand it, Wikipedia is not here to make value-judgements as to subject matter.
  • Classical music is not a niche subject. It is a major subject which is appreciated worldwide, and certainly a valid subject both for Wikipedia articles in general, and for DYK. No subject is banned from DYK, unless (if I understand it correctly) it would seriously damage the future existence of Wikipedia in some catastrophic way - for example unless it would embroil Wikipedia in a political controversy or legal action. If you look at the October 2021 batch of DYK hooks here, you will see a brave variety of subjects, many of which might not grab the interest of the common herd, your good self, or me either. But they will all grab at least a few hundred.
  • It is fair to say that we want some hooks that are crowd-pleasers. But we also want something for everybody - WP's own article collection is supposed to be something for everybody, anyway. If we are reviewing on DYK, we need to consider everybody, not just the majority-crowd-pleaser subjects. If we really went for that common-herd-pleasing quality, we would be presenting a scandal-rag with nude photographs, ideally bearing the titles and faces of world leaders.
  • When I glance through the above October DYK archive, I see many subjects which I have never taken an interest in, or that I do not really understand. But I am intelligent enough, and broad-minded enough, to give them all a go - because that's what you need to be, to be a DYK reviewer. I will never understand baseball or American football, but it makes great photographs that we can all enjoy. I will never understand nuclear physics, but there are plenty of things you can do with that, that will grab attention (sadly).
  • Open your mind, my friend. Do not belittle, demean or diminish the years of intensive hard work and valuable achievements of our DYK nominators, just because you don't get their subject. It is good for us all to make the effort, and that is one of the jobs of DYK - to attract attention to something new. For example, when I first came here 17 years ago, I had no interest whatsoever in the type of articles that railway enthusiasts write and enjoy. But I have made the effort to read their stuff, visit some of their stations, communicate with some of them, and finally to write an article about a rail engineer. Branching out is good for you, and more importantly - mutual respect is good for Wikipedia, and that includes our public face on DYK. Storye book (talk)
    Note that I never suggested at any point that classical music hooks are inherently uninteresting; in fact interesting hooks about the subject can and have been proposed multiple times in the past with great results. In fact, Gerda and others with the same interest have produced a number of excellent hooks over the years. It's just that I believe that we can do better than what has been proposed here so far. With that said, I think ALT5 is a decent enough hook, and if both you and Gerda are okay with it, I'll approve it (although I think it would be good to mention what year he won the competition for clarity's sake). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:51, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
It's 202 characters without pictured so it wouldn't be allowed under the rules. Maybe shorten it further? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:15, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
Perhaps it could be rewritten as ALT5b ... that Frédéric Blanc won the Paris international organ competition for improvisation in 1997, and then became titular organist at the Notre-Dame d'Auteuil in Paris (organ pictured)? The original ALT5 was already on the long side, and adding the year would put it in the 190s character range, which while technically acceptable may be too long for comfort. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:17, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
No, sorry (and I only added the year to please you). The competition is for organ, with an improvisation prize. The prize was 1997, and the post 1999, not immediately, that's why I tried "afterwards". The organ builder is The organ builder (perhaps in the world, surely not only in France), showing that in the caption then.
Cavaillé-Coll organ of Notre-Dame d'Auteuil
Cavaillé-Coll organ of Notre-Dame d'Auteuil
ALT5c ... that Frédéric Blanc won the prize for improvisation at the Paris international organ competition in 1997, and became titular organist at Notre-Dame d'Auteuil in Paris (organ pictured)?
Noted. @Storye book: Are you okay with ALT5c? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:01, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
Thank you. ALT5c is approved. Thank you to everyone for their hard work. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:30, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
ALT5c to T:DYK/P3 without image
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