Template:Did you know nominations/Long Point (Cape Cod)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PumpkinSky talk 22:30, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Long Point, Massachusetts

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... that the Cape Cod village of Long Point, Massachusetts was abandoned in the 1850s, and its residents took their 30 houses with them – by floating them across the harbor?

ALT1:... that the Cape Cod village of Long Point, Massachusetts became a ghost town in the 1850s, only to be replaced during the Civil War by Fort Useless and Fort Ridiculous?
ALT2:... that the town of Provincetown, on Cape Cod, was protected during the Civil War by Fort Useless and Fort Ridiculous, both in the ghost town of Long Point, Massachusetts?
Reviewed: this is my first DYK experience...
Comment: (1) created both in my userspace and mainspace on May 10, 2012;
(2) NOTE: Long Point, Massachusetts is presently a redirect to Long Point (Cape Cod). I don't think that's an issue – I originally thought that a piped page name would pose a problem, but I've since learned that it's acceptable for disambiguated page names. When checking the article history (for creation date, etc.), be sure to look at Long_Point_(Cape_Cod)'s history instead. The article name really should be "Long Point, Massachusetts", and I tried to MOVE the main page over the redirect, but failed without admin rights, because the redirect had more than one entry in its history.
(3) The article still has the "New unreviewed article" tag at the top, so if someone could read the article, I'd sure appreciate it! Feel free to edit, too... Thanks!

Created by Grolltech (talk). Self nom at 20:41, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I updated my initial comments to reflect what I've learned on #2, and that #3 no longer applies. Also, here's a "ghost town" variant of the main nomination (maybe more "hooky"?):
ALT3:... that when Cape Cod's village of Long Point, Massachusetts became a ghost town, its residents took their houses with them – by floating them across the harbor? Groll†ech (talk) 15:41, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

This is an interesting and well written article. It is new enough and long enough. I like the original hook or ALT3 best. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 13:03, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Plagiarism concerns. Compare: "Provincetown had been virtually an island dependent on the sea" with "This left Provincetown virtually an island, dependent upon the sea", or"Its only access to the rest of Cape Cod had been either a precarious wooden bridge leading to sandy roadways or beach routes" with "Its only access to the rest of the peninsula had been either a precarious wooden bridge leading to sandy roadways or beach routes". Nikkimaria (talk) 05:00, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

I assure you that was not my intent. I believe I have addressed your concerns, and would appreciate another look, if you would be so kind? Note that there is very little written account of those days, and nearly every author, myself included, have made heavy use of Jennings (1890), which is in the public domain. Thank you, Groll†ech (talk) 16:16, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Before I do that, just to clarify: have you included any verbatim material from that public-domain source? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:10, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

No, I just re-checked the 5 pages that I used from that source. But I did use the treasure trove of facts. I always cite when I do so (I've been accused of over-citing before), and it is verifiable, as there is a link to the book on Google Books. Here's the passage that comes the closest, and I would value your assessment.
Here is mine:

The initial lure that attracted so many fishermen to this area was its proximity to prime fishing grounds, and the bounty of fish that could be caught right from the shore. Using sweep seines (that were hand-knit by their wives), fishermen caught mackerel, shad and bass aplenty from shore. There are reports of up to seventy-five 200-pound (91 kg) barrels of white shad caught in one haul, fetching $16 per barrel.

and his:

The nearness to the fishing grounds, and the abundance of fish that could be taken from the shore induced many families to locate here. ... Fishing from the shore was carried on extensively with sweep seines, catching plenty of mackerel and shad; bass were also taken in large numbers. As many as seventy-five barrels of white shad have been brought ashore at one haul; Mr. John Atwood caught that many, ... These fish brought a good price, selling for sixteen dollars a barrel of 200 pounds; the seines were all knit by hand; the women, for the most part, did the knitting.

Thoughts? Groll†ech (talk) 23:12, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

That paraphrase seems fine, though I'm not crazy about "aplenty" tone-wise. You certainly won't be accused of over-citing in this article, as you've got at least four paragraphs that are totally uncited. I'll recheck the other paraphrases shortly, but it would be very helpful to know what citations I'm looking at for those paragraphs. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:59, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Hehe, touché! I've fixed "aplenty", added several references to cite all of the paragraphs, and nixed the entire "Getting there" section and language like "panoramic vistas". I'm hoping that this resolves the tone concerns? Turning to your your last request, I'm not sure I understand completely, but I'm guessing that you're referring to the original concerns. Here is my passage as it currently stands:

... the town was essentially cut-off, not just from the mainland, but in many ways, even from other towns "up-cape". The town is surrounded by water in every direction, except for a tiny strip of land to the east where it borders its only neighbor, the town of Truro. Prior to the railroad's arrival in 1873, one had only two options to cross by land: over a dubious wooden bridge to a narrow sand-covered road; or along the beach on the "backshore" to the north. Both of these routes were occasionally washed out, especially during storms. Much like an island community, the town depended on the whims of the sea.

The original source is a small passage from this page, shown below:

Provincetown had been virtually an island dependent on the sea until the railroad nailed down a permanent connection. Its only access to the rest of the peninsula had been either a precarious wooden bridge leading to sandy roadways or beach routes. During major storms these approaches washed out.

I just noticed that you've already removed the "copyedit" and "close paraphrasing" tags... thanks very much for your help in improving this article. Please let me know if there are any additional concerns. Thanks! Groll†ech (talk) 15:03, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Paraphrasing is much improved. The only remaining issue AFAICS is the tone/neutrality problem, which persists despite recent edits. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:28, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I've been trying to work on that as well, but apparently I've not succeeded yet... I just changed all references to "the Point" to "Long Point"; I've removed phrases like: "takes it in on the chin", "Thus, a village was born", and "up-Cape". Honestly, if there's still more tone issues, I'm at a loss, and would really appreciate if you could give me some examples. Thanks very much, Groll†ech (talk) 13:36, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Sure: most of the section headings, "Salt eventually lost its luster", "Much like an island community, the town depended on the whims of the sea", etc. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:24, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

I have changed the headings, deleted the "Anachronism" section, and expanded upon the military occupation and later years (with numerous references). However, I have not changed the sentences which you mentioned. With all due respect, can you (or anyone for that matter) explain to me where in WP:TONE it says that an article must be soulless, sterile, tedious and uninspiring? When I look at WP:TONE, aside from the usual stuff about pronouns, punctuation and the like, here's what I take away from that guideline: "Formal tone means that the article should not be written using unintelligible argot, slang, colloquialisms, doublespeak, legalese, or jargon; it means that the English language should be used in a businesslike manner." Now, I've been successful in the business world for more years than I care to admit, and there is not one word or phrase in that article that I would hesitate to use in a formal business setting. Besides, let us not forget that this whole saga began with "...virtually an island, dependent upon the sea" – although it flows much better, I know you don't want me to change it back to that, right? Feel free to suggest an inspired alternative; failing that, I see no issue with it. Groll†ech (talk) 05:20, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

I understand that Nikkimaria is away until Friday? Should I just sit tight until then, or can another experienced DYK reviewer pick up where she left off? The paraphrasing question has been resolved, ~~and it seems we are developing a bit of a disagreement about the article's tone;~~ a third set of eyes might help in this situation? Also, I have added an image to the article, which I'll offer here as well to use (or not!) as you like. Thanks, Groll†ech (talk) 00:47, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

(tap, tap, tap...) Is this thing on? Anyone? Groll†ech (talk) 22:35, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

Here's one more "hooky" alternative if anyone wants:
ALT4:... that Long Point, at the very tip of Cape Cod in Provincetown, Massachusetts, not only has a Light and an empty Battery, but also a ghost village that floated downtown? Groll†ech (talk) 01:34, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Sensing a touch of passive–aggressive non-response, I have given in and addressed every known objection that has been raised to date. Anything else? Grollτech (talk) 00:25, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Looks much better now, prefer ALT3. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:45, 8 June 2012 (UTC)