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Template:Did you know nominations/Richard Lorenz (artist)

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 00:53, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

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Richard Lorenz (artist)

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Indian Chief, c. 1890s oil on canvas by Richard Lorenz
Indian Chief, c. 1890s oil on canvas by Richard Lorenz

Created by Bruxton (talk). Self-nominated at 01:23, 14 June 2022 (UTC).

  • New article, long enough, interesting hook, well cited with plenty of secondary verifiable sources. Prefer ALT0. Cardofk (talk) 22:34, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Just a couple of details to add: the pic is free (70 years after his death, checked WP:PD to make sure) and the phrasing is very matter-of-fact, no plagiarism, e.g. the line for the hook on p. 156 says, "After the death of Frederic Remington, Lorenz became the leader of western genre painting." Cardofk (talk) 07:44, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Pulling the reordered original hook from prep. The 1909 date is not even in the article (nor in the given source), an absolute requirement, and I find dubious the phrasing "became the preeminent artist in Western painting", as if he was magically anointed on December 26, 1909, at the moment of Remington's death (presumably having been the undisputed number 2 to Remington). The Encyclopedia of Milwaukee source, cited four times in the article, isn't willing to go that far for their hometown boy: they write Lorenz became one of the preeminent western genre painters in the United States without referencing Remington. I don't think Wikipedia can safely use "the preeminent artist" on its main page. Pinging nominator Bruxton, reviewer Cardofk, and promoter Theleekycauldron. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:10, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
I am sure you are right, but: "dubious" and "magically anointed"? It is not all that...it was a logical conclusion based on the source below. Here is a new ALT...
Bruxton (talk) 15:34, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
"Preeminent" is a synonym for leading. If you want we can say leading.
Bruxton (talk) 01:09, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
  • I was happy to approve it based on the Milwaukee encyclopedia's "one of the the preeminent" and the cited book saying "After the death of Frederic Remington, Lorenz became the leader of western genre painting." Seemed almost mathematical at the time: "one of the preeminent" + "the leader" + "death in 1909" = the preeminent in 1909. I have no problem with either ALT0 or ALT1. Cardofk (talk) 15:52, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
  • @BlueMoonset: We need your guidance please regarding the hooks. Also I have had to renumber these hooks due to my error. @Cardofk: please return and if you approve of one call it out by ALT. and...nothing can proceed unless you also come again with a green tick. Bruxton (talk) 21:39, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
  • I'm sorry, Bruxton, I'm not nearly as sanguine as you and Cardofk. The perspective of the Milwaukee encyclopedia is more recent than the WPA's of 1941 (and they give him more than three sentences); I don't see how you can safely assert anything more in Wikipedia's voice than "one of the preeminent" or "one of the leading" given the disagreement between the two sources; neither of these is date-dependent. (These two sources aren't additive, but different perspectives by historians.) A third source uses "a leading"; another says "Although he is only quietly recognized", which doesn't sound like being second only to Remington. Both ALT2 and ALT3 are likely to be pulled at Errors because of the timed claim of supremacy that's only made once out of many sources. I'd suggest a different approach entirely:
Of course, you'd need to add that particular quote to the article. I think that would be more effective than the more detailed "German-born and Milwaukee-based", though I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:50, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
I can get behind ALT4. I will edit the article. Seeing if @Cardofk: can approve ALT4 and green tick if they do. Bruxton (talk) 22:56, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
  • ALT5: ... that German-born Richard Lorenz was once described as "the leader of western genre painting"? As an alternative. It's cited. I'm happy to tick whatever you go with. But, in 4 hours time I'll be going offline for the next 8 days. Sorry. If you happy with ALT4 then . If ALT5 is acceptable and you prefer it then just go with it. Cardofk (talk) 09:38, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

- @Bruxton, Cardofk, BlueMoonset, and Theleekycauldron: not sure what's happened here, but the quote used in the hook "the leader of western genre painting" is not found anywhere in the article. Also (and this seems to be a recurring theme at DYK), if you're going to say in the hook that someone was "described as..." something, the article needs to make it clear somewhere in the lead or body who made that description, per WP:WEASEL. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 10:18, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

@Amakuru: I sure hope to get it ironed out. It has been removed from preps twice. I will see what I can do. Bruxton (talk) 00:35, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
  • ALT 6: ... that artist Richard Lorenz was nearly killed by a falling tree cut down by workers he had been sketching?

I think the tree-cutting incident would make a great hook. Pawnkingthree (talk) 01:16, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

I've struck ALT5, since it was proposed by the previous reviewer but never passed, and was what was removed as problematic. I agree that the ALT6 incident would make a good hook (though you can't really use the painting with it); it might be made even more effective if there was some clear way to point out that Lorenz was up in another tree, sketching, when the tree being cut fell the wrong way, toward Lorenz's tree—maybe by adding "while up another tree" or "from another tree" or something like that at the end of ALT6? If the image is important, ALT4 was approved and can still be promoted as its quote is in the article lede; however, there's the WP:WEASEL issue raised by Amakuru to deal with (the quote is from the Encyclopedia of Milwaukee). There's something similar to that quote in the Levy source that, from the wording, may be based on material from the Wisconsin: a guide to the Badger State source, a WPA-created book and therefore not by a single author. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:55, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
I love it! Thanks @Pawnkingthree:. Not sure if the reviewer is around @Cardofk:. I prefer it not covering every detail. Bruxton (talk) 02:58, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
I did try and get the fact that he was up another tree into the hook but I thought was a bit too wordy. Glad you like it!-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:05, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Note i have erased both the claim and the reference calling him a leader in western art. Bruxton (talk) 03:43, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Sorry about ALT5, I was rushing, and after the debate on wording of the hook, I suggested something closer to the source material. Anyway, I see no issues with paraphrasing, plagiarism or neutrality with ALT6, but a green tick from me seems to be a mark of doom right now. BlueMoonset are there policies like WP:WEASEL that are not mentioned in the hook criteria above, e.g. Format and Content (interesting, neutral and cited), that I need to be aware of before I give it the green tick? I really don't want to let you all down again for a third time by approving it. Cardofk (talk) 08:32, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
I like Alt 6. I'll let someone else green check this. --evrik (talk) 16:39, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
@Evrik: c'mon Evrik - you can get out the check! Let's try to make the third time the charm! Bruxton (talk) 19:01, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
I like Alt 6. --evrik (talk) 19:42, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
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