Template talk:Hymns and songs based on Psalms

Use sublist for non-English hymns/songs?

This template is a great start. Thank you.

But it is going to get very cluttered with lines looking like:

 Psalm 103 (102)    Nun lob, mein Seel, den Herren (My Soul, Now Bless Thy Maker)    Praise, My Soul, the King of Heaven

referring to multiple items, some themselves containing the awkward "German text (English text)".

This is the English-language Wikipedia. Might I suggest that the principle items be English-language articles texts, and that any non-English articles be in a sublist.

This revision and this revision (based on one example entry) demonstrate two possibilities.

Feline Hymnic (talk) 16:00, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion, but currently there is already a width/hight issue: a lot of white space on the right, and comparatively a rather high box: both proposals make that box still higher, and with even more white space on the right. I'd propose to wait a bit and see how many more Psalm-based hymns and songs have their own article, so that they can be added to the navbox. They might dwarf the German ones, or there may be so few that the current content of the box is about it. If most lines get filled to the right margin and beyond we can decide what to do next. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:13, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Criteria for inclusion?

Presumably the intention of the template is to include hymns and songs that feature in hymnals etc. for Christian worship. But at some point, questions will arise about other songs that may be outside that. For instance Rivers of Babylon. Should this be included (and why) or excluded (and why)? Is a set of inclusion criteria needed? Feline Hymnic (talk) 16:33, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

"Rivers of Babylon" is already linked from the template (bottom row, because it is based on more than one Psalm which makes that it doesn't fit in the "by Psalm" section). No problem to include more of these, but for me that was the only one I remembered thus far. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:56, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. There's 40 (song) by U2. Feline Hymnic (talk) 17:07, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

How about the two hymns inspired by Psalm 8? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:49, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Feline, Gerda: title of the template is "... based on ..." so the article on the song/hymn needs to have a clear reference that says "based on" (seems OK for the 40 song), not merely "... inspired by ..." (certainly not if the article on the hymn doesn't even mention the Psalm or has no reference to determine whether there actually was a "based on") – without further references that actually say "based on" the psalm 8 ones seem rather like a no-go.

For comparison (trying to clarify the "based on"/"inspired by" distinction): Hermann Hesse wrote a poem "inspired by" BWV 565 – that is not "based on" the composition. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:54, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Method of linking

Instead of linking to the psalm encylopedia articles, why not link to Wikisource? I used the King James, but they also have a s:Bible_(World_English)/Psalms, and I would be fine with that, too. I put in Psalm 24 using the :s: template, so you can see if you like it our not.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 19:40, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

A navbox should have no such external links. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:52, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

It would be internal, as it's our Wikisource. But: the psalms have much more info than the KJV translation (at least the better ones, - working on it). They all have that translation, often the complete text. Only, the text from the Book of Common Prayer is used more often in compositions. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:44, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, there are rules about it. No external links (that is external to English Wikipedia) in navboxes. Navboxes are for going from one English Wikipedia article to another. A few exceptions are maybe possible, but not like that. Why do I have to say things twice?

I think the same misunderstanding is still going on, about which I told elsewhere earlier today: navboxes are *not* glorified structured lists. They are what their name says: navigational aids. --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:33, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and navigation templates is only a guideline, and it is further clarified by Wikipedia:External_links#cite_note-body-2, which is also a guideline. It says "Links to Wiktionary and Wikisource can sometimes be useful" and it also makes an exception for templates like the bibleverse template--the ordinary rules against external links do not apply to the bibleverse template. And if the bibleverse external links are allowed, so are the wikisource Bibles interwiki links. Related to this I might add that some people add the occasional foreign language article to templates. For example, we might add the German link found in Christian_child's_prayer#I_Am_Jesus'_Little_Lamb.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 22:10, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

The Swedish hymn template links directly to wikisource: sv:Välsignad_är_du,_Jesus_Krist--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 04:11, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Any rule can be broken (WP:IAR). I've seen no convincing reason why we should in this case. In fact, I've seen no reason at all. The question "why not...?" is not a reason: it is just a question; "Swedish Wikipedia does it" is not a reason either: whether or not examples of a dubious practice can be found in English Wikipedia is not considered a valid reason – whether or not they exist in a Wikipedia with different rules is not even a reason. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:30, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Over the years I've done a fair amount of work on such "navigation templates". I don't think I've ever seen a single case where the links go outside the native-language Wikipedia; they all navigate internally, within that language-Wikipedia. If the intended purpose of the link to (say) wikisource is to allow a hymn text and its psalm text to be directly correlated, then that purpose is best fulfilled within the WP article on the hymn text. Feline Hymnic (talk) 09:14, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

... and the psalm article which includes the text, or should. If you see a psalm article without the text, please add it. The model for psalm articles is Psalm 84. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:19, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Protesting against Gerda's bad advice: neither is the Psalm 84 article a model for whatever, nor should the KJV and Hebrew text versions of the entire Psalm be in every Psalm article. A more practical linking from the Psalm's article to several viable English versions (from different traditions), and perhaps also to the standard Latin version, if such version is often used in popular creations based on the Psalm, would be welcome though: that is an issue with only unsatisfactory temporary solutions thus far. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:44, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

If you are going to link to the Psalm articles instead of Wikisource, it would be appropriate to have a nested template for each psalm that, when developed, could be placed on that individual psalm's article. But at this point I don't know how many psalms will have multiple hymns and thus justify a nested template for that psalm's entry.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 18:41, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

As a compromise, we can link to the "text" subsection for psalm articles which have a text, and to a wikisource for articles which do not. I am going to add some hymns which I think will be non-controversial to Francis Schonken, and experiment with my proposed compromise.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 03:18, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Possibilities

Here are some possibilities. Nearly all come from an online database, some are based both on a psalm and on other Bible passages. I only listed the Psalms. I do not expect you to use all of these, it would overload the template. Rather, it is something for you to comb through.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 21:12, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Extended content

Lift Every Voice and Sing 85 Te Deum 89:26 Kyrie 51:1 Great Is Thy Faithfulness Psalm 89:1-2 On Eagle's Wings Psalm 91 The Hymn of Joy Psalm 5:11 and Psalm 8:3 Savior, Like a Shepherd Lead us Psalm 23 Lord of All Hopefulness Psalm 55:16-17 St_Clement_(hymn_tune) (The Day Thou Gavest) Psalm 113:2-4 God of Our Fathers Psalm 44:1-8 Immortal, Invisible, God Only Wise Psalm 104:1-5, 31-35 Die güldne Sonne voll Freud und Wonne Psalm 145, Psalm 33, Psalm 40:5 (know only from translation, haven't checked the German) Pange lingua gloriosi proelium certaminis (Sing, My Tongue, the Glorious Battle) Psalm 98:1-2 Bereden väg för Herran (Prepare the Royal Highway) Psalm 24:7-10 Onward, Christian Soldiers Psalm 145:13 Finlandia_hymn#"Be_Still,_My_Soul" Psalm 42:4-11, Psalm 46:10 Doxology#"Praise_God,_from_whom_all_blessings_flow" Psalm 150 Wer weiß, wie nahe mir mein Ende Psalm 90:12 Our God, Our Help in Ages Past Psalm 90 and Psalm 46:1-3 God's Word Is Our Great Heritage Psalm 119:105, 111 Abide with Me Psalm 63:6-8, Psalm 73:23-26 All Creatures of Our God and King Psalm 65:8-13 All Glory, Laud and Honour Psalm 118:26 and Psalm 24:7-9 Praise to the Lord, the Almighty Psalm 103:1-11, Psalm 106:48 (or list as Lobe den Herren, den mächtigen König der Ehren ?) The God of Abraham Praise Psalm 142:4-6, Psalm 9:7-11 Brightest and Best of the Stars of the Morning Psalm 51:17 Ride On, Ride On in Majesty! Psalm 118:25-26 O Sacred Head, Now Wounded Psalm 22:6-8 Jesus Christ Is Risen Today Psalm 98 Holy God, We Praise Thy Name (or Großer Gott, wir loben dich ?) Psalm 31:1-4 Wir glauben all an einen Gott Psalm 145:15-16 Love Divine, All Loves Excelling Psalm 85:7-8 The King of Love My Shepherd Is Psalm 23 Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken Psalm 87, Psalm 48:1-14, Psalm 132:13-18 If Thou But Trust in God to Guide Thee / Wer nur den lieben Gott läßt walten Psalm 55:22 As Pants the Hart (Handel) Psalm 42 Erhalt uns, Herr, bei deinem Wort / Lord, Keep Us Steadfast in Your Word Psalm 119:5-10 How Great Thou Art Psalm 8 Lofsöngur Psalm 90

Collapsed for readability of this page. --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:37, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

For clarity, the hymn or song needs to be entirely, or at least largely, be based on Psalm text for inclusion in this template. The above list are mostly short quotes of Psalms in more extended hymn texts: that is not the same as "based on a Psalm". Hence I removed "Macht hoch die Tür": a few Psalm verses quoted in a five-stanza hymn does not make a "hymn based on a Psalm". --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:57, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Tangential: "Psalms for All Seasons"

This is tangential to the template, raised here because participants seem interested in the topics of sung versions of the Psalms.

Should there be a WP article on the 2012 book "Psalms for All Seasons"? This USA publication seems to be quite widely known even over here in the UK, but could we find sufficient published independent reliable sources? Would it pass WP's notability guidelines? Or would any attempt to produce such an article not stand much chance of survival? Feline Hymnic (talk) 11:00, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

I haven't heard of the book. If you want to do it, first look and see if you can find the book recieving substantial reviews by three people unrelated to the book or its publisher. If so, it might survive deletion.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 01:11, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Source of additional songs

• Numbers of hymns based on psalms:[1]
• Hymns that the numbers are referring to:[2]--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 01:10, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Is this template useful, or ever possible to complete?

It seems to me that there are likely hundreds, if not thousands, of hymns and songs that are based on Psalms, even in the strictest sense that they must be "based on" rather than just "include verses from". As such, this project is a very long way from completion, currently consisting of just over 20 hymns and songs (most of which are German, for some reason which is not particularly clear).

Given that the vast majority of Psalm articles already have a section for "hymns and musical settings" or something to that effect, which each tend to include a decent number of examples, I would suggest that we just use the Psalm articles themselves for listing musical uses, rather than copying out hundreds and hundreds of musical settings into this one unwieldy template. At the moment, it just looks rather bizarre to see the template on just a small handful of Psalm articles, almost laughably suggesting that "this Psalm and 20 others are the only ones to have been set to music, and each has only been set to music once or at most twice". For this reason, I'd suggest we consider deleting this template. Jel3456 (talk) 18:47, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

"hymns and songs" does not equal "set to music". E.g. Allegri's Miserere and BWV 1083 are both settings of Psalm 51, neither is however either a hymn or a song. And then, because it is a navbox, a hymn or song based on a Psalm would need to have a separate Wikipedia article (while a navbox's functionality is to click from one article to the next, and it is not possible to click to a non-existing article, so a hymn or song that has no article can not be in the box). Similar for Gregorian renderings of Psalms (which are indeed also countless): neither "hymn"s nor "song"s and/or not having separate Wikipedia articles. I think the current box pretty much covers most of what would be eligible in current Wikipedia, but if you have more suggestions, please go ahead and say which articles are missing from the box. Again, a navbox is not the sum total of everything that exists, but something that allows you to navigate from one Wikipedia article to another on a similar topic. If there is a Psalm with currently no Wikipedia article on a version of that Psalm as song or hymn, then, so be it, not in this box. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:22, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

I see, so it is limited specifically to a strict definition of only: "hymns and songs" (not other musical settings), they must have their own article, and it must be "based on" (not just inspired by or refer to).

Does it matter if the articles are merely sections in a larger article on a collection of works? I assume that that is allowed, given the current inclusion of works like "Lord Let Me Know Mine End" which don't have an independent article. So how about Schütz' Cantate Domino for Psalm 149 for instance, would that count? Or any of these works by Tallis? How about these Six Motets, Op. 82 (Kiel)? Pushing it a bit further, if we're allowing parts of a larger article, would a song on an album count? E.g. Psalms (album) and many more.

Even if not, I still struggle to believe we're covering "most of what would currently be eligible", I feel like I could find many more but I'd rather not sucked down the rabbit hole! The Lord is my Shepherd (Rutter) has just come to mind. On Eagle's Wings is a hymn which primarily says based on Psalm 91. I was glad sets Psalms 122.

What's the intended purpose of the navbox? To let me easily navigate from Psalm 100 to Psalm 124 because both of those psalms happen to have settings which meet the whole list of above requirements? We acknowledge that there are countless songs based on psalms which aren't on Wikipedia, so this really just serves to "link together Psalms which have notable settings of a particular format", which seems both not very helpful, and a little misleading in its implication.

Sorry for all the questions! I'm relatively new here, so I'm firstly just trying to see what we're trying to achieve, and secondly if you could let me know what you think about those suggestions, then I think I'd have a better idea what kind of thing can be included.Jel3456 (talk) 20:46, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Good questions. For me, Schütz and Kiel would not qualify, not hymn or song. I heard that some use song for almost anything sung, but for this purpose, we could almost say "hymns" alone. There is a category for psalm-related musical settings, and indeed more than I would like to put in a template. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:59, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Re.

• Lord, let me know mine end – indicated as "Song" in the linked article: it is a motet, but at least it is listed as a song under the section title "Songs" (Songs of Farewell#Songs): it is a bit borderline but have kept it for now.
• Cantate Domino, SWV 81 – Madrigal (i.e., not "song" nor "hymn", nor indicated as such anywhere afaics) → not for this template
• Tallis's Tunes for Archbishop Parker's Psalter – not indicated as song or hymn, not anywhere afaics → not for this template
• Six Motets, Op. 82 (Kiel) – Motets, not indicated as "song" or "hymn" anywhere afaics → not for this template
• Psalms (album) – contains a few songs named after Psalms: the article has however no info (and certainly not info based on solid references) whether these are songs "inspired by" or "based on" Psalms: as such it is currently not eligible for the template – but I suppose that with clearer, well-referenced content it might become so.
• The Lord is my Shepherd (Rutter) – afaics not indicated as song or hymn → not for this template
• "On Eagle's Wings" – lyrics of mixed origin (which include parts of a Psalm and other Biblical excerpts): not a clear "based on a Psalm" → not for this template
• "I was glad" – rather hotchpotch article, more like an extended version of the "Musical settings" section of the Psalm 122 article. As such not an article about a "song" or "hymn" based on a Psalm. With a bit more differentiation (e.g. keeping only settings of the "I was glad" translation in the I was glad article, and all other settings of the Psalm in Psalm 122#Musical settings it might possibly become eligible, but "as is" currently, not eligible.

--Francis Schonken (talk) 04:45, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Re. "What's the intended purpose of the navbox?" – Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and navigation templates might clarify (in a general way) the intended purpose of navboxes, like this one. --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:03, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Interesting. For me, this seems like we're still using a very specific definition of "Song", which perhaps is not in line with what most users might think a "song" is. As such, it feels a bit unintuitive, and consequently the whole navbox feels unintuitive, as it's connecting seemingly random articles together based on a very specific definition which is not necessarily commonly used. Perhaps Gerda's suggestion of changing to just hymns could help somewhat.

Thanks for that link, it's rather helpful. I see that it recommends a good navbox should follow these guidelines:

1. All articles within a template relate to a single, coherent subject.
2. The subject of the template should be mentioned in every article.
3. The articles should refer to each other, to a reasonable extent.
4. There should be a Wikipedia article on the subject of the template.
5. If not for the navigation template, an editor would be inclined to link many of these articles in the See also sections of the articles.

I'm not sure this navbox meets those guidelines. In particular, I don't think the articles for Psalm 100 and Psalm 124 (for example, or take any other random pair of psalms from the template) refer to each other to any extent. If this navbox didn't exist, it would be very unlikely that these psalms would be thought of for inclusion in a "see also" section, because they are not related. I'm also doubtful whether all these articles relate to a single, coherent subject, due to my previous concerns about the strict definition of "songs", but maybe we'll have to agree to disagree here. Either way, because these Psalms have no obvious connection, and would not otherwise be linked together in any way, there doesn't seem to be a reason for this navbox to exist, according to your link on the purpose of navboxes. Am I reading that page you've linked correctly? --Jel3456 (talk) 08:25, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Re. "... seems like we're still using a very specific definition of "Song", which perhaps is not in line with what most users might think a "song" is" – in fact no such definition is used. The key is in #2 of what you listed above: I go to the article and look for a phrase like "[the subject of this article] is a hymn based on Psalm (No.) ##" or "[the subject of this article] is a song based on Psalm (No.) ##" – or any closely comparable wording to the rather exact same effect, always confirmed in a verifiable way, of course.

#4, a Wikipedia article on the subject of the navbox does currently not exist (yet). I think it would be possible to write it though, starting somewhere with Luther's versification of a few Psalms, leading to Protestant Psalters, i.e. with singing tunes (hymn tunes) for such versified Psalms, such as the Becker Psalter and the Genevan Psalter, after which, over the centuries, the idea was more widely adopted, also outside Protestantism, etc. Another tradition (maybe older? I'm less experienced in this side of the topic) leading to hymns such as "Hine Ma Tov" (which should be added to the template). --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:49, 1 June 2020 (UTC)