Template talk:Infobox Portuguese subdivision

Subregions

Does anyone know why the subregion parameter isn't working properly? Slade ☯ 07:59, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

The subregion parameter is obsolete: since 2015, the subregions (NUTS III statistical regions) are equal to the 2 metropolitan areas, the 21 intermunicipal communities and the 2 autonomous regions. Markussep ^Talk 09:14, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

@Markussep: many thanks for your answer! Best regards, Slade ☯ 09:46, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

@Markussep Can you please post here the link where you based your statement? Sanjorgepinho (talk) 16:56, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

See this reference: 2013 Apresentação INE NUTS. Markussep ^Talk 21:10, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

@Markussep I'm looking at the link you sent and I couldn't find any information that supports your statement. As you may know, the statistical regions and sub-regions are created by the European Commission after being proposed by the member countries. If you don't know the official information is here at this link: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/nuts/history.

Regions and sub-regions are territories, not intermunicipal entities. The intermunicipal entities (Intermunicipal Communities and Metropolitan Areas) are associations of municipalities that manage the NUTS III Subregions.

Perhaps your confusion comes from the fact that the sub-region NUTS III Área Metropolitana do Porto has the same name as the Intermunicipal Entity that manages it. A more complicated situation occurs with the Área Metropolitana de Lisboa (NUTSII), Área Metropolitana de Lisboa (NUTS III) and Área Metropolitana de Lisboa Intermunicipal Entity, all with the same name.

What for me is wrong in the template are the references to "Intermunic. comm. {{{CIM}}}" when the subregions should be identified as shown in the excel file on the European Commission website that I sent you https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/345175/629341/NUTS2021.xlsx Sanjorgepinho (talk) 22:41, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

I never said that the subregions have been abolished. Since 2013, the NUTS III regions are identical to intermunicipal entities (as the references confirm). Therefore it makes no sense IMO to show both the intermunicipalities and the subregions in infoboxes for municipalities, parishes etc., and therefore the "subregion" parameter was disabled. NUTS III subregions are statistical areas, they have no local government or representation as such. The corresponding intermunicipalities do. Markussep ^Talk 09:16, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

@Markussep: Let's start with the first part of your statement: "Since 2013, the NUTS III regions are identical to intermunicipal entities (as the references confirm)". They are not identical because the NUTS III are statistical territorial (geographical) areas and the intermunicipal entities are companies with tax number of taxpayer and employees (few but they have).

As for the statement "Therefore it makes no sense IMO to show both the intermunicipalities and the subregions in infoboxes for municipalities, parishes etc., and therefore the "subregion" parameter was disabled", it is incorrect because we are talking about Template:Infobox Portuguese subdivision, and the Intermunicipal communities do not subdivide anything, they only act for specific purposes in these NUTS III created by the government of Portugal. Once again I tell you that the Intermunicipal Communities are companies not territories.

As for the subdivision, as you can see in the following news, the Government of Portugal, when it talks about the subdivision of the territory, talks about NUTS III and not the CIMS. https://www.tsf.pt/portugal/sociedade/governo-admite-alteracao-do-mapa-territorial-para-acesso-de-setubal-a-fundos-europeus-13793328.html

As for the statement "NUTS III subregions are statistical areas, they have no local government or representation as such." It's all true, because the government and the Municipal Councils are in charge of this territory and not the CIMS, but remember that we are talking about the "Template:Infobox Portuguese subdivision".

As for the statement "The corresponding intermunicipals do it", although it has nothing to do with the template under discussion, this statement is not true. The Intermunicipal Communities only deal with matters that receive delegations of competences from the municipalities. For example, the Mayor of Vila Real presents to its Municipal Assembly a request for authorization to delegate the negotiation of an electricity contract to the Douro Intermunicipal Community that includes this municipality. If the Municipal Assembly does not approve this delegation of powers, it cannot be delegated.

In conclusion, I mention that in this "Template:Infobox Portuguese subdivision", you can place or not the statistical subregions but never the Intermunicipal Communities. Sanjorgepinho (talk) 16:10, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

OK, let me be more precise: they have identical perimeters = the same member municipalities. CIMs are not regular companies, they are legal structures in which municipalities cooperate, just like the communautés d'agglomération in France and the Verwaltungsgemeinschaften in Germany. I disagree with you about mentioning CIMs in the infobox. If you still think that CIMs should be removed, you could open a topic at WT:PORTUGAL. Markussep ^Talk 08:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

@Markussep: Let me give you an example with NUTS 0.

The NUTS 0 of Portugal is Portugal, and the entity that manages this territory is the government of Portugal.

Following its logic, saying that a person resides in Portugal is the same as saying that that person resides in the Government of Portugal.

The NUTS is the territory (geographical area), and the CIM is an entity that manages it, in whatever way...

You can see the NUTS 0 here: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/nuts/nuts-maps

In Portugal, the CIMS are companies with public capital, with an associative character, but they are companies to manage territories, they are not territories.

You can see here the business information of Comunidade Intermunicipal do Douro, with tax number 508779200. https://www.racius.com/comunidade-intermunicipal-do-douro/en/

Even today, the creation of 2 new NUTS II and a new NUTS III were approved by the European Commission, NUTS II and III of "Peninsula de Setúbal" and NUTS II of "Ribatejo e Oeste". Thus, the Intermunicipal Community of the Médio Tejo will lose the municipalities of Vila de Rei and Sertã. This happened, by imposition of the government of Portugal, without these Municipal Councils having been heard. Now the CIMS will have to amend their constitution and statutes to adapt to these new NUTS III. You can see this news at: https://omirante.pt/politica/2023-01-01-Medio-Tejo-censura-forma-como-Serta-e-Vila-de-Rei-sao-retiradas-da-comunidade-intermunicipal-505a5baf

As for any changes I mentioned, I agree with you, this is not the place to do it. What's up for debate was the answer you gave to @Slade which I still don't agree with.

Best regards Sanjorgepinho (talk) 23:55, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Add Demonym to infobox?

This would be useful for articles such as Funchal. Opok2021 (talk) 17:55, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

It could be added, but I'm not sure how useful it would be. In the Funchal article for instance, I don't see the demonym anywhere in the text. Is there a commonly used English demonym for inhabitants of Funchal? Markussep ^Talk 07:20, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, the demonym is funchalense. It is on portuguese wikipedia, here: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funchal Opok2021 (talk) 22:05, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

That’s the Portuguese demonym, but is it used in English? Markussep ^Talk 08:42, 28 October 2023 (UTC)