Template talk:Infobox university/Archive 11

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Address

Virtually every college or university has a physical address; a mailing address for applications for admissions, job applications, deliveries, just for parents to put into their GPS for a visit. It seems absurd the inbox does include a space for it. Instead, I am finding a lot of inbox users are placing the address before the City field. Unfortunately many do not know about that workaround and instead have an address datafield entered and it simply baffles the user why it does not appear. Trackinfo (talk) 02:59, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Why would we want to include a street address in an encyclopedia article about a college or university? ElKevbo (talk) 03:11, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the one-stop source for all information one might want to know about anything. The reader should check out the school's website, which is generally linked in the infobox (that's why we link it). That way, they are reasonably sure to have the current address. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:39, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

It doesn't seem like you have a valid objection. Instead it seems like a few people have decided what the world is allowed to learn from wikipedia. This is the most basic, common information virtually every school will have, but shall I suggest probably a handful at best have made this decision? Can you point me to a broad RfC that has a consensus on not showing the address of a school? Trackinfo (talk) 05:13, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

No, I can't. You asked for opinions, I presumed to offer mine. It's only an opinion. If you feel an RfC would have a decent chance, feel free to start one, and I would give the same opinion there. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:17, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Honestly, if I saw a school's mailing address in Wikipedia's infobox, I'd still go to their website to confirm it. An additional couple of minutes max, to avoid the possibility of sending my mail to a bad address. For me, then, the address in the infobox is needless clutter, and I doubt I'm all that unusual in that way. For these reasons, I feel that an RfC would be a snow fail, or close to one, but knock yourself out. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:29, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Don't I know that school wikipedia pages attract vandals. The validity of ANY information on wikipedia should be checked before acting upon it. But that is no excuse not to try to post valid information. Screen space? Are you kidding? "Where?" is one of the 5 key questions of journalism and I don't see why we should be answering that with a vague city level location when better information should be commonly available, as you said, from the school's website. And its not always on the home page of that website. Wikipedia could consolidate that information, better. Why don't we do that for all information: You can learn everything about this institution at their website, we'll just leave the rest of the page blank. Trackinfo (talk) 06:35, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

In my opinion a RFC would be snow rejected, as it is too similar to the standards set in WP:NOTDIRECTORY. More than welcome to try though. Jolly Ω Janner 06:52, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

It's not just vandals. Once-correct addresses can be changed, and without notifying Wikipedia of the change. And Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit, and some editors' attention to detail is far better than others. Screen space? Are you kidding? - No, I'm serious. Less is more. When I edit Wikipedia, every bit of information has to earn its keep, right down to an individual punctuation character. An address that can't be relied upon does not earn its keep in my opinion. Why don't we do that for all information - not all information is as easy to find on the school's website, and no other information risks mailing something potentially important and/or time-sensitive to a bad address. If a school's US News ranking is out of date or otherwise incorrect, it should be fixed, but the consequences to the reader are relatively minor. If the school's national football championships are misstated as 3 instead of 2, it should be fixed, but no significant harm is done. And so on. You can learn everything about this institution at their website - Apparently not, considering the number of other sources in the References section for most schools.
I think you're wasting your breath trying to convince me (I'm a stubborn old guy), and probably the others who have commented here, too. In your place, I'd either give up or get started on that RfC. Not that I'm telling you what to do. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:48, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

While we're at it {{Infobox UK school}} uses parameters for street, postcode and county etc. We should probably make a post on the talk page for that to be removed. Jolly Ω Janner 08:24, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Is the physical address of a school a viable parameter? The RfC is posted. Trackinfo (talk) 21:40, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Following up after the successful RfC above, I would like to get the address parameter added to the infobox. You can copy it directly from Inbox school. Trackinfo (talk) 08:43, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. In addition, I would suggest you add your suggested changes to the sandbox. While I doubt any of them will be complex, saying "go look over here" is not how an edit-protected request works. Izno (talk) 01:41, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

OK copied from Infobox school insert: | header1 = {{#if:{{{address|}}}{{{streetaddress|}}}{{{street|}}}{{{location|{{{Location|}}}}}}{{{region|{{{Region|}}}}}}{{{city|}}}{{{town|}}}{{{city/town|}}}{{{state|}}}{{{province|}}}{{{postcode|}}}{{{postalcode|}}}{{{zipcode|}}}{{{country|}}}{{{country1|}}}{{both|{{{latitude|{{{latd|}}}}}}|{{{longitude|{{{longd|}}}}}}}}{{{coordinates|}}}| {{#if:{{{address|}}}{{{streetaddress|}}}{{{street|}}}|Address|Location}} }} Trackinfo (talk) 06:41, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

No consensus for changing this infobox. Quite a bit of the discussion in the RfC focused on a distinction between schools and colleges/universities with a fair number of commenters explicitly !voting "yes" for schools and "no" for colleges and universities. So there doesn't appear to be a consensus to change this specific infobox. ElKevbo (talk) 19:35, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

The deciding administrator stated "There is clear consensus that the school's address is an appropriate piece of information to include in an infobox, but only in cases where the school/university is located at a single address." You are now nullifying that decision. That is not the way things are done here. Because any parameter exists in an infobox, it does not mandate that it be used. It is available by editor decision. Removal of the information within that box is also an option for another editor, so each case can be discussed by knowledgeable parties. When the address is ambiguous or multiple, it doesn't need to be there. That is the wikipedia edit system. However, by failing to make the parameter work, by failing to make the edit requested, you are blocking the ability of the parameter to be used by any future editor. Trackinfo (talk) 19:47, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Insofar as anything on Wikipedia is "binding", I don't see why any decision made by WikiProject Schools should be applicable to WikiProject Universities. But I confess that I don't have strong feelings on this issue in the first place. I do think it's a silly thing to add, since most postsecondary institutions aren't located at one specific place, unlike most elementary and secondary schools. You can list an address, but it's likely for the administration building or the mailing address for the president's office, but likely won't be for the admissions office or the biology building or a dorm. So why is it useful to have it in an infobox in the first place? Esrever ^(klaT) 21:30, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Your assumption of "most postsecondary institutions aren't located at one specific place" is being applied wholesale across all colleges and universities. It there is a case where an address is not applicable, it does not need to be entered. But when it is applicable, that option is not available in the info box. We hashed that all out in the RfC. That is what an RfC is for. There was a lot of discussion. If you don't think an address is appropriate for a specific institution, have at it. But there is no reason for the overt resistance on a wholesale basis. Trackinfo (talk) 02:59, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please make your requested changes to the template's sandbox first; see WP:TESTCASES. — JJMC89 (T·C) 02:43, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

The sandbox version of the template seems to be working properly. How do we test it and advance it to replace the existing? Trackinfo (talk) 17:33, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Two edits have been made to the template since the sandbox version was created. How do we move forward to advance this from sandbox and track the revision history. Seems like some editors are more equal than others. Trackinfo (talk) 07:02, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

@Trackinfo: This is a template being transcluded 21000+ times, and its syntax has started getting quite intricate. It's not close to being intricate beyond comprehension, but to be perfectly honest, one of the small reasons why your request has not gone through is that experienced template editors may not want to be held accountable for untested breaks due to corner cases, etc. I'm not as experienced as many others here, but I'm willing to help out, especially as this is backed by a consensus-reached RfC (as I understand it). I've moved all your changes to the sandbox and voted delete on your subpage. If I have time, I'll make some more test cases here before you should submit an edit request. Sounds good? — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 21:22, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. Thank you for even paying attention. I welcome the help. I understand the coding is delicate, far beyond my capabilities. Progress does take some work. Trackinfo (talk) 22:25, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

@Trackinfo: The big difference between the sandbox and live is a bit striking. If you pulled in code from Infobox school, I'm gonna try to undo a bit to keep the edits minimal and contained in the |address= param (and relevant new ones). I'd also need time to read the RfD before I'd take action. If I'm not on this by the end of the week, feel free to ping me again. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 23:27, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

@Trackinfo:} FYI, there is already a field |location= that overrides city, state, country, etc. Please take a look at the last testcase here and look at the code. I've made no changes to the template itself. What do you think? Do we still need to make a change? — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 02:12, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

What brought me into this issue in the first place was the incongruity between Infobox School and Infobox University. I went to several collegiate pages that did not have the address, I went to enter the address and discovered, the information was already entered by a previous editor. That showed 1) that something was technically wrong and 2) I'm not the only one who thinks this way. I also discovered work arounds, but wikipedia is not built for the few editors who can find workarounds, we should be serving the public. I didn't really have an agenda here, just enough experience to know where to look for the problem. I'm astounded that I met with the political resistance to the concept. Because some universities are big spread out campuses that render a single address impractical, they felt the parameter should not be available for any college or university, instead of depending on the peer review process that is the way editing takes place on wikipedia. Again, fighting the battle for the little guys who logically expect if they enter a parameter named address that an address will appear, I took it to an RfC to get past the political wall. We achieved a consensus. The code works on Infobox School so I suggested to copy it. Obviously the people who wrote each of these infoboxes were different, there is not a structural match, so its not that simple. Thanks to Frietjes, the duplication in the code got cleaned up and is apparently working.. I'm fine with a workaround, I already have a solution. Its not about me. We are not going to be able to teach that workaround to billions or millions or even thousands of future editors. As you said, there are more than twenty thousand transclusions of this infobox. I've avoided using the workaround because I don't want to embed the information in a bad format. Plain and simple, the address parameter should work for the average editor to choose to use. If it is inappropriate for that University, other editors can delete it or discuss it and a consensus will be reached. That is potentially the way every word, every piece of information we show the public is dealt with. Trackinfo (talk) 03:21, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

@Trackinfo: Your RfC was closed by a non-admin. The RfC never explicitly addressed the parameter to use for the street address. It also never specified where exactly to put the address in the template. Currently, {{Infobox school}} accepts |address=, |streetaddresss=, and |street=. For this template's sandbox, I'm currently using only |address= for the line you request. I've also implemented |zipcode= (not "zip code") as a corollary. Check out the change in the sandbox and also check the updated appearances in the testcases subpage. Comments? — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 06:17, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't get what you are looking for here. I hope my goal is clear: I want Infobox University to be as universally useful to other editors as Infobox School. If you can help make that happen, by all means, do so. Adding acceptable permutations of "address" "street address" "zip code" zipcode" etc. etc. the more the merrier. Regarding the RfC, I wrote it as simply as possible to address the political resistance to the concept of posting an address for a University or College. I drew the direct correlation to Infobox School, so stealing the best concepts from that would make sense. Please do not negate the entire RfC because it didn't address the exact details, or by who chose to close it. Trackinfo (talk) 16:40, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

@Trackinfo: No no, I have not negated the RfC in the slightest. Take a look at the testcases subpage please. The address is present in the sandbox. What do you think of its appearance? — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 16:47, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

It seems to be working. Not as elegant or prominent as Infobox School but functional. I'm good with it. Trackinfo (talk) 16:52, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

@Trackinfo: I'm advocating for minimal changes here. For institutions that aren't as local as middle and high schools, I honestly believe a prominent address is not necessary. If anything, the current change here is a decent compromise that is minimal in code change and less likely to be controversial. I actually think this is an elegant change. I hope we're on good terms :) Thanks for your input and explanation. @Jolly Janner, Mandruss, and ElKevbo: The RfC closed in favor of introducing the option to include a street address, and the appearance change here is minimal. I'll be syncing with changes in the sandbox in about 2 days. Please let us know if there are still concerns. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 17:01, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Andy, could we use 'postal-code' instead of 'zipcode'? Zip codes are only found in the US. Izkala (talk) 17:04, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Done, although it's an inconsistency with {{Infobox school}}. We can probably live with that. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 17:09, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Actually, {{Infobox school}} has the alises 'postcode' and 'postalcode'. Izkala (talk) 17:11, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

The diff is now: Special:Diff/720009817/720112709. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 20:15, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

This user defers to consensuses he disagrees with. But thanks for the ping. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:06, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

The editor who closed the RfC got it wrong: there was nothing close to consensus, especially for the university infobox. But it's not worth fighting over. Once editors try to use this in articles it will quickly become clear how inappropriate, useless, and misleading (for readers) this parameter is for colleges and universities. ElKevbo (talk) 18:36, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Why include zip codes at all? Wikipedia is not a directory. Toohool (talk) 19:09, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

@Toohool: I'm indifferent about |zipcode=. If we're incorporating |address=, then postal code seemed like a natural addition. I'm happy to remove it. @Mandruss and ElKevbo: To be honest, I'm with you guys about not seeing the need for address, and although I recognize the RfC may not have been closed properly, I don't feel like arguing either. The change simply makes address an option, and does not feature it at the top of the infobox as {{Infobox school}} does it. I think it's acceptable to defer usage of |address= to a discussion at WikiProject Universities. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 19:56, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't know how it works in the US but in the UK postcodes are used for navigation and encode all or most other parts of the address. If I wanted to get to a university, I'd simply look up their postcode, tap that into my satnav and hey presto. Izkala (talk) 19:57, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 2

I've synced with the sandbox. In summary, there are no aesthetic changes whatsoever if |address= and |postcode= are not provided. Please re and ping if there are issues/concerns. Thanks. I'll be updating the doc page in the next half hour — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 15:57, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Documentation changes. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 16:16, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

I feel like this is both overly complicated and US-centric. Why is 'zipcode' a special case in the code? Why's the postcode a 'region'? The address format varies widely from country to country and region to region (e.g.: in intra-European mail, the postcode is stringed together with the country code; in France, the postcode precedes the city; etc.). I'd simply place all of the details on a new line and be done with it. We don't need to repeat all of the mistakes made in {{Infobox school}} here. Izkala (talk) 16:39, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

I think I made a mistake of tagging "postal code" with "region". Looking at hcard microformat on address, the zipcode (or postal code) should be wrapped with span class="postal-code". @Izkala:, can you suggest a different format in the sandbox? — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 17:12, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

I have done so now. Izkala (talk) 17:32, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

@Izkaka: Special:Diff/720248420/720249849. The test cases were messing up pretty badly. We really don't want city, state, code on separate lines. And please don't be averse to "zip code". There are folks who are genuinely don't know the generic term, and the bit of code only helps. If you have very strong opinions against it, go ahead and remove it, but I suggest otherwise. I think we're ready to sync again. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 17:48, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Fine with me. Izkala (talk) 17:50, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Special:Diff/720272786. — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 20:34, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. Izkala (talk) 21:36, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Colours

The link for university colours currently links to an abysmal article about American school colours, which has multiple issues and is irrelevant to all of the pages using this infobox. I suggest de-linking it from the template until that can be sorted out. 86.28.195.109 (talk) 22:09, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. This is a case of overlinking.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  06:38, 8 August 2016 (UTC)