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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Lol thanks for the comment (to Hildanknight). :D Cheers -- Imoeng 02:22, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Overthrow of Sukarno

I dont see why a GA needs images where there is a limited range available - all the ones that I know of of the the peak of this era (ie during the killings in central java) are the cruddiest black and white images I have ever seen! Anyway, I do hope you guys get it up to GA - Daniel and I in the end hoped others would pick it up - best of luck! SatuSuro 08:55, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Have done so already. Daniel was the guy who did most of the article - if you look in the history and talk - he and I had a bit of a tiff about the civil war title - but I insisted on not doing the change. Impressed by your recent work in the big arts that needed all that work - well done! SatuSuro 09:05, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
So do you know the annual suharto era national tv movie G30SPKI off by heart as well? SatuSuro 09:07, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
I have answered at [1]. Lincher 15:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

re: Album Cover Removals

Could you please be more specific about which particular criteria you judge the use of album covers to be against WP:FUC??

  • It's been discussed in more detail in the past, but the general consensus has been that it violates criterion #8, "the image must contribute significantly to the article". It's fine to have an image of the album cover in the album's own article, or even in a section of the band article that discusses the album, because then it's being used to illustrate text that specifically discusses the image's content. Just putting the album cover in an otherwise list-formatted discography, though, doesn't add in any significant way to the article, so the use of the image is considered decorative. --keepsleeping slack off! 15:45, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


Hi how are you? So do you think we should extend the collab (again)? Personally, I think we should. Cheers -- Imoeng 09:38, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh alright then. How long do you think we should extend it? I have no idea. Also I will find out about bot to "spam" the project members. Cheers -- Imoeng 13:39, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


Thanks! I see you've been doing a lot of work on it while I was away... I'm trying to add a little credibility to our work now :) I think we're gonna be ready for a peer review very soon... --Kristbg 03:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Toraja word

Just for a comparison. Is Malay a plural or a singular? I think Toraja is a singular, because it is an ethnic name. Same case for Batak, Dani, Asmat, etc. — Indon (reply) — 04:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


I think there could be many more links put in or fixed up - but I'm mainly working all my old arts on Tasmania for the moment. Also details about all the early HB'S should be in somehwere. SatuSuro 09:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

BTW what are you like on Suharto's early career? the latest couple of edits at his art look suss to me... SatuSuro 11:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Re (Suharto) in Yk (ie Yogya) we had rumours something like that but diff place. HBIX is Sri Sultan Hamengku Buwono the ninth as is PBX Sri Susuhunan Paku Buwono the tenth - I once gave a seminar without having the honorifics for those guys ! death would have been easier than extreme malu SatuSuro 12:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Pffff. That's nothing - on my first Lebaran i wished Salatiga's most promiment imam a "happy christmas" as a guest in his own home on Idul Fitri! Accidently of course - i got my Hari Natal and Hari Raya's mixed up! He took it well. --Merbabu 12:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
This is beginning to feel like the geordies in the monty python thing about living in the middle of the road - bank daging rather than bank dagang in a bupati's house in eastern indonesia - but not as good as yours! good one! SatuSuro 12:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

United Development Party Article

Thanks for the compliments. Yeah I know I should be sourcing it and I'll try to cite references and sources to the PPP article (I've also worked on the Golkar article and also all of the Orde Baru Vice Presidents apart from Habibie if you're interested in checking). I just have a good memory of the facts when it comes to things that I'm enthusiastic about (Indo politics esp. Orde Baru).

If you want to help with the sources by all means go for it. Anything after Orde Baru, you could easily find on the Internet. If you want to source info on the 2004 elections, you can go to, they've got an archive of articles there. Just look around the May-August 2004 articles and you should be able to source my info on the Presidential elections.

I would help locate sources but I've got the HSC coming up and I'm only working on the articles when I'm taking a break from studies. Jakman 00:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Yep, I'm Indonesian. Born in Jakarta in 1988, moved to Sydney in 1999 and now doing my HSC. I didn't really get interested in Indonesian politics until 2004 when the Presidential Elections were on. I went on holiday that year(last two weeks of June 2004 and first two weeks of July 2004), got caught up with all the election enthusiasm, started searching information on the Presidential/Vice Presidential candidates for fun, and that's how I got interested into Indo politics.Jakman 01:21, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for compliments for the PDI article. It would be great if people can help me format the sources, because the only things I can do is give external links.Jakman 06:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

That'll be the online sources that I'm using. The book reference that I'm using has been added to the PDI article, but I'm not sure how to get it to appear as a footnote.Jakman 07:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Will do. I've added some external links for PDIJakman 06:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Anti-C category

Picadilly has just started this [Category:Indonesian anti-communists] with Suharto as first art in it - what do you think? SatuSuro 01:13, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Hope you didnt mind my butting in on the persistent one! SatuSuro 01:29, 18 October 2006 (UTC) Blah! that stuff always takes up so much time! SatuSuro 01:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you

Thanks for adding the footnotes to Languages of East Timor. :-) FilipeS 19:23, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Citations for Bali

Hello. I have tried to find citations for Bali, for now, only using Google, but I cannot find a "scholar" website, most of them are travel sites. Do you think we should use that for now? Cheers -- Imoeng 10:32, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

OH lol, I didn't know that. I've been reverting vandalisms since this morning because I have nothing to do (no scholar sources). Okay thanks very much -- Imoeng 05:18, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Rumah Gadang

They still exist in Negeri Sembilan where there's a community of Minangkabaus. Besides, the rumah gadang has been an inspiration to the design of other buildings such as Muzium Negara, Malaysia's national museum.Wai Hong 08:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Human rights in Indonesia

I apologize for my oversight. I do place merge information in the edit summary when I feel the differential and "what links here" do not make the nature of the merge clear. In this case, I clearly misestimated. I will not make that mistake again. Jlittlet 16:13, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikiproject Indonesia Newsletter

WP Indonesia banner.jpg
WikiProject Indonesia has grown incredibly! Two months ago, when the project was created, there were only two members, but now, we have got over 20 members, and hopefully it will keep increasing. Because of this large number, now WikiProject Indonesia has it's own newsletter, which will be delivered every week on Monday morning, around 22:00 (UTC). If you have any idea and suggestions, please do not hesitate to contribute to the next newsletters. We also need to find a better banner for the newsletter, so just post it on project's talk page. With your help, we can reach the even the impossible goal!
"Bersatu kita teguh, bercerai kita runtuh"
What's new?
Several ways to increase the interactions between editors have been proposed. For now, the best solution would be the IRC Channel just for WikiProject Indonesia. Please go to #wikipedia-id if you have had experiences with IRC Channels. Or read the instructions at Wikipedia:IRC.

Three new barnstar design have been proposed! If you find a great editor with excellent contributions to Indonesia-related articles, give him/her a barnstar, or maybe two or three! See the barnstars at Wikiproject Indonesia Barnstars.

Articles improvements
The previous two weeks were maybe the best and tiring week for some of us. On the good side, we have got a new Good Article, which is Toraja. Congratulations for all editors who have involved in the expansion. Yet we have failed to get two Good Article status, which are Tourism in Indonesia and Indonesia. However with the spirit of 1945 we will always accomplish many things!

Starting this week (October 17), the collaboration durations have been extended, so now we can collaborate to improve a particular article for two weeks straight. Please leave any recommendations or suggestions on the collaboration talk page.

Many thanks to MartinBotII, a state-of-the-art Martinp23's bot for delivering the newsletter

Hari raya

Thanks Merbabu, Selamat Hari Raya to you too :D. Cheers -- Imoeng 03:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Indonesian National Revolution

Why the Surabaya Flag Affair, November 10, Madiun Affair, PDRI, Makassar Massacre and General attacks are deleted? These events are important events during Indonesian National Revolution.—Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

My removal has nothing to do with any notions of the events' importance to Indonesian history. Rather, I (and others) have had a number of concerns with your edits for some weeks now and have commented at the time in various places. Why should I explain again now particularly when you consistently refuse to log in and sign? --Merbabu 04:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I have provided the references see the article itself and other links on this talk page. WHY DO YOU KEEP DELETING IT?—Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)
I can't be bothered with comments on my userpage that those who persist to be anon or don't even sign. --Merbabu 03:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks For All The Help

Thanks for all the help with the referencing, I think I know how to do it now. I'll be going around to add some reference to other articles that I've done (PPP and the Orde Baru Vice Presidents) for the remainder of the day. I'll be going back to studying for the HSC tomorrow (I've got 6 days between my last HSC exam and my next one which is next Tuesday and I can't help but work on wiki). Again, thanks for the help.

Mount Tambora for FAC

Hi, I want to ask your opinion. How about if we put Tambora article to FAC? What do you think? Is it already qualified enough? — Indon (reply) — 10:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for your copyediting. Finally, I succeeded to attract more people to the article ;-) — Indon (reply) — 13:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


Hey Merbabu, thanks for your message. I thought I was the only Aussie crazy enough to be editing this late. :) I agree about the spammer and I doubt he will give up, but at least he is easy enough to spot with his username. I must say, I loved the edit summary he used after you warned him, "adding external link to trusted, established site with links to U2 (personal friends with Marc Marot." That's a gem. :) Have a good night, Merbabu, Sarah Ewart (Talk) 15:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


I really think comments on yet another one of these time wasters needs to get out of the subject/article talk page - there's gotta be something where it has happened elsewhere - or - a policy page needs to have the very boring saga laid out so that it dosnt happen again soon! Otherwise, we'll be writing the same stuff, I suupose - for the next proposal no later than next february! SatuSuro 11:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Maybe our next project should be to get the Wikipedia article on Java into the top ten on the Google search for "Java". -- Danny Yee 12:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Bali maybe, then also maybe this is the opening step in the decline of Java programming language. Interesting thought but I think those that pay google are more still going to get precendent ove something thats free, it interestin gto note that if use google definition it talks about the coffee then display wikipedia Java article in full then has some other uses and finally has a paragraph on the programming language. Gnangarra 04:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I placed a request at [[2]]to query the user:dreddlox, the response is an obvious sockpuppet, Gnangarra 05:28, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

(no indent) I'll adopt Java for this week then. ;-) — Indon (reply) — 15:22, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Clock time

I noticed your post on Talk:Sarah Ewart. I think the clocks go back tonight, so you were right the first time. I sympathise as it always confuses me too! --Guinnog 12:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

LOL! Of course, how utterly stupid of me. All the more so as I knew you were talking in an Australian context, and I have actually lived in the Southern Hemisphere... Next time I'll mind my own business, what a dork... --Guinnog 14:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, just ignore our poor northern hemisphere friend with his backward seasons. ;)
I looked at Bhutan and I've watchlisted it. I'm a bit concerned that some of the sections the IP is trying to remove read like editorialising and the article cites very few references for an awful lot of negative comments. I'm kind of surprised it's a feature article. I'll keep an eye on it and maybe if it keeps up it would be worth s-protecting it for a while to try to get the IP to discuss what the problem is. Unfortunately I know zip about Bhutan which makes it rather difficult. I might ask around for a third opinion, but i tend to think that the editorialising and negative statements needs to be chopped if there are no sources that can support it. Thanks for the daylight savings reminder, Merbabu, :) Sarah Ewart (Talk) 05:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Aussie sock

Certainly seems that way --Michael Johnson 12:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Next Island

God forbid that you should even think of it - the trolls will be in there before you even mention it! SatuSuro 13:17, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

The issues that you raise I'd need to follow up some other time. SatuSuro 14:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

re: Linked Aussie map

[3]: There. -- Zondor 05:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


I'm sorry for inappropriate tag in Anti-Chinese legislation. I mistook the tag. Thanks anyway --Nielswik(talk) 12:45, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Infobox on U2

I also prefer the old template instead of the newer one in terms of looks. But there is a work being done towards the uniformization of pages about musical artists. So, templates are being made to be used in every musical page, so they all look alike. Superseded means that this template has been replaced by the new one, which should be used from now on. The new template is more general, as it can be also used for non vocal instrumentalists and non performing personnel in addition to bands. If you think that the color banding looks bad in the template and have suggestions on how it should look, please discuss it in Template talk:Infobox musical artist. -- Nmnogueira 14:15, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Rattle and Hum

Greetings from me. I'd like to point this issue, that has been troubling me lately about the band's discography. Is Rattle and Hum a proper studio album and does it deserve a place on the band's page. 'Cause it isn't on their discography page, it isn't regarded as a proper follow-up to Joshua Tree and thus I don't think it do deserve a place there. I wanted to ask you, because you are the first I've collaborated. I just don't want to put a oil in the fire and start a heated discussion. Some might say something like that: "Who the fuck are you to come right now and say this shit?" - and they might look at me as a newcomer, despite that I am seasoned editor.

Regards: Painbearer 17:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: User:

Good point. I've extended the block to a month; much longer than that is very rare when it comes to IP blocks. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Luna Santin 23:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Copyvio images

All of the images are taken from Flickr website with non-suitable WP images. Images, that I tagged with copyvio template, have All rights reserved license. For this case of images, I've notified the uploader, as it is suggested in the template. For other images with CC non-commercial or non-derivational licenses, I simply replaced with the correct license tag, which in returns it gives CSD (speedy deletion) template. For this case, I didn't notify the uploader, because it is not required. At first, I didn't remove the CSD images from the article, but an admin asked me to do so, to help admin jobs (see his message in my talk page, just above your post). Cheers. — Indon (reply) — 01:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Java collaboration

Hi Merbabu/Archive2! Starting today, the Indonesia Collaboration is Java. Come along and help make this an article worthy of the world’s greatest island. There’s a suggested to-do list on the the talk page to which you can add, or just pick a task. All sorts of tasks are required, Images, Citations, Research, Copy Edit; you name it, it needs to be done – this important article needs your help!! Regards -- Imoeng 08:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


Prabowo SatuSuro 15:19, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The issues about this are quite a few (user and subject)- and I have very limited time, got to get off and on this am. Will try to put comments here this pm SatuSuro 23:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your response to my alerting you to the blanking of the earlier edit of Prabowo. A number of things concern me about the issue of the contributor. In view of some issues, I'd prefer off-wiki conversation, but in the current mode:

As that particular user had been warned by you previously - I figured a follow up was possibly in your domain. However, in view of your message this am - if the edits are frustrating you -

  • (A) - any contributor who is coming from a number of red/number positions should be encouraged to edit from a name. If the english comprehension/technical shortcoming understanding is limited to understand the increased privacy from a name - maybe a post to one of the ids with the big full welcome thingo with some Indonesian language on some user talk pages might have an effecct? I am not sure what's best - but...
  • (B) - if the guy is editing from a location that might have problems with actual internet usage (work restrictions etc) maybe there is an intractable problem? ie - no refs on hand, and limited internet searching capacity?
  • (C) - A lot is in the discretion as to whether the edits are useful, and the editor is behaving reasonably well while doing so - if they are not - perhaps you should put the issue to an admin person rather than carry the load - but if you think the effort is worth it to cajole the editor to putting refs - or even clues - then ...
  • I have to go back to the earlier wikipedia articles thaat I did early on - as I have ommitted refs myself - I am only uncovering my old papers, books and articles as they are only out of storage inthe last couple of weeks - and they take up cubic metres of space and are unsorted.
  • HOWEVER - if poor behaviour or unhelpful edits are occuring or regular - you need to go to an admin for help (dont carry constant reverts or talk page stuff for any length of time its not worth it) rather than an 'official' WP page for admin alerts, on the basis tthat an indiv admin you might know - or who might know the issues of Indonesian issues editing - would be better than attracting complete outsiders with limited understanding of the subject (viz java dismabig).

As for the subject - my frame of reference is very much a paranoid outsider living in Suharto's era Java with stories of snooping intels and others - all very off-wiki I am afraid! SatuSuro 09:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The more I remember watching some of your work with editors who might be short of understanding the issues of refs and cites (as the article pages would be on my watchlist anyway) I am less convinced that any of the above is of relevance, so sorry for clogging up your talk page. I have recently stayed away from concurrent live indonesian article editing for a range of reasons - and all I can say is that if you continue you will have to live with the issues that indeed frustrate you - except where there is deliberate wrong doing - and I would say you need to tap on the shoulder of a friendly admin rather than letting it be or ignoring... Apologies, I dont think I have been of any help! SatuSuro 13:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
As for the hard work on ABB - can you imagine how the spooks will do their version at - !!!! SatuSuro 13:32, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I forgot to send the message to you (had sent to Imoeng and Indon but I havent put in the portal news thing yet) about the synchronicity that my Javanese informants during my fieldwork would have loved so much - Clifford Geertz dying - and Tommy Suharto being released from prison on the same day - I can think of some of my Yogya friends with good knowledge of the 'londo' or outsiders like the geertz's (some even old enough to remember them in Yogya in the 1950's!) - thinking of it as being quite obvious and inherent in the 'fabric' of coincidences that such events should occur on the same day! SatuSuro 13:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Mohon maaf, sekali lagi - for an art On ABB on the top right hand corner of the page as a PDF - worth checking out. SatuSuro 13:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

There is another as well! Probably better at in the top right corner. SatuSuro 14:06, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the Invite

Thanks for the invite for the Java collaboration. I've just had a look at the article and would probably only get to work on it the day after tomorrow. Knowing me, I'd probably focus on the history section.Jakman 21:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Likewise. I'll see what I can do in terms of copy-editing and making content suggestions. Just wondering, did Indonesia ever get renominated for GA/FA? I think it's in pretty good shape overall. Feeeshboy 00:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks man

I have provided reference on ABB in the talk page Unfortunately it's in Indonesian languange, but i have listed some of its content on the talk page. Feel free to contact me about that. I just knew that you understood Indonesia And thank you about Iftar, I know my english is quite terrible and you didnt alter the meaning.

As an Indonesian, I have to thank you for your great contribs on Indonesian-related articles. Cheers Nielswik(talk) 14:03, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

U218 Singles

Hi Merbabu, if you're working on the U218 Singles page, I've uploaded the new cover image from the group's website; it's called U218Singles.jpg . Thanks! --Jvd897 15:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

U218 Singles II

You say: "Also included is a DVD containing the videos of the 16 selected songs."

What makes you think its also included? says clearly : "It will be released on CD and 12” vinyl and as a full length DVD featuring the single promo videos."—Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)

I am fairly certain I did not say that. rather, most likely it was a previous edit. On that article, I've been removing unsourced speculation rather than adding it. Regards --Merbabu 00:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Adam Clayton

  • (ALL facts given for balance. NB: I didn't say he was "British" or "Irish". a peice of paper from one country, is different to living somewhere all your life (but no less important of course - lol))

[My bold] So a man born in the UK, to British parents, who retains the citizenship of his birth, and holds no other dual citizenship or passport, is not British because he moved to Ireland when he was five? More evidence that having account makes you no less stupid and biased a contributor. 15:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh great - no account, no idea of being civil, and no concept of the assumption of good faith. Not having even one of these things I can't be bothered to waste any more time trying to explain that the above is not what I said at all. What was that about stupidity and bias? ha ha --Merbabu 23:32, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Just in case you dodnt know - this same go no where argument has been repeated on other Australian rock group articles a number of times over birth/parentage/identity/etc etc for members of other groups (born in one country, lived in another, ad nauseum) . - Best to put up on WP:witiquette alerts if it goes for more than 5 times - its not worth putting up with when it descends to PA's. SatuSuro 10:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


Now that they're in australia - I bet you have hell keeping the arts unvandalised! SatuSuro 10:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: Comments on Pondok Indah AfD

I really must take umbridge to your recent comments about me on the Pondok Indah AFD. If you feel I am being biased or discrimintory in my actions, please come to talk to me on my talk page. Accusations of bad-faith actions really offend me; especially when I have strived in my Wikipedia career only to improve the state of articles. The article as it was written showed NO signs of notability. It read like an advertisement, and thus looked spammy. There were no references; the wording of the article could lead one to believe that it was describing a small housing development for the rich, rather than an extensive and notable suburb. If you have any doubts of my motives, please read my contributions list and also read the state of the article as I found it when I first nominated it for deletion. If you think the article is to be kept, don't use diversionary tactics. By steering the discussion AWAY from the merits of the article at hand, you do your position a disservice. Argue the issue on the MERITS of the issue itself, not by steering it towards other unrelated issues. I have no idea what I have done in my past edits to offend you, but I offer no apologies for this AFD nomination. As the article stands TODAY, it has improved significantly, no longer looks non notable, and should definately be kept. But your attempts to smear my name by spurious and unfounded accusations of bad-faith had nothing to do with swaying my vote. The article is NOW referenced, it CLEARLY states the actual size and importance of the suburb. Thus it should be kept. If you wish to cast any further aspersions over my motives, please do so on my talk page, and keep it out of the public discourse. --Jayron32 19:24, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

    • I apologize for getting so snippy above. I can only say that I might have been in a bad mood for unrelated reasons, and your post "set me off". It felt like you were "calling me out" when really your message was more of an indictment of the "system" rather than me personally. I understand the analogy you are trying to make. I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me personally, so we can see each other's sides. I spend a lot of time in AfD discussions, and I often see logical fallacies in peoples arguement; either ad hominem defenses (The people who support this are bad, so therefore the thing they are supporting is bad) or guilt by association defenses (other articles in this catagory are bad, so this one must be bad too) or other arguements that do not address the issue at hand. AfD is a simple process that gets mucked up. All an AfD really is is a call for proof. Someone has read an article, and is questioning some aspect of it (it looks like Original Research, or isn't readily verifiable, or whatever). You will always win keep votes on an AfD by simply providing references to back up your point. I understand the systemic bias inherant in writing articles around the developing world, I do; but these references don't really even have to be URLs. Books, newspapers, journals, any thing can make a reliable source, it doesn't have to be on the web. A travel book may have extensive reference to Pondok Indah, for example. (the Yahoo Travel reference is GREAT by the way. It is the main reason I have withdrawn my nomination). The problem that I run into too often is that people argue from all of these unhelpful positions. The logical fallacies I mention above only serve to steer the conversation away from the heart of the matter: Finding references to back up the arguement you are trying to make. If the ONLY arguements you can make are ad hominem or such, then perhaps the article isn't worth keeping. That obviously does not apply in this case. Again, I humbly apologize for my misinterpretation, and thank you for being so helpful and understanding --Jayron32 00:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.