User talk:AndyTheGrump/Archives/2012/May

Wizard

Pay no attention to "the man" behind the curtain. LeadSongDog come howl! 16:37, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Defender of Wikipedia Barnstar
	Andy, you should have got one of these a long time ago. Thanks for all your work fighting to keep crap out of articles - I'm sure it ain't too fun, but it's a very important job. You might be interested in reading this btw. SmartSE (talk) 19:42, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks - though I'm not intending to do much more in the way of defending for now. I'd said I was quitting entirely, but couldn't keep from commenting regarding a couple of articles I'd had watchlisted. I'll probably just lurk in the background, and try to avoid getting drawn in to too many endless debates over abstractions. And thanks for the link too - an interesting article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:54, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

I would like to be a co-signatory on this barn star. I was recently reading WP:FILIBUSTERS and found it to be uncannily apposite; an exact description of behavior recently encountered.
Best Wishes Ankh.Morpork 22:49, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Re: synthesis

I brought this up at Talk:Forward (Obama–Biden campaign slogan). I have no personal stake in the matter, I was merely following our protection policy per Wikipedia:Protect#Content_disputes. I'm aware that the page is currently the WP:WRONGVERSION, but once a page is protected for a content dispute its content should not be edited. -RunningOnBrains^(talk) 05:16, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Ah, thanks. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I've commented further on the article talk page. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:03, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Bad boy

Feel free to ignore or revert me if you want to. This message is a bit tongue-in-cheek which is dangerous because I am not a native speaker, I hope you understand what I mean. Please allow me to publicly spank you for a bit, you've been a bad boy, you should be polite, even to people who you do not understand and who do not understand you. I've seen the pattern before: (1) you meet someone you do not understand and who does not understand you (2) there is a debate, you are right and the other person is wrong (3) you get in trouble for being, ehm, a bit too honest (which crosses into WP:NPA) even though a majority agrees you are right and the other person is wrong. Is there a way to prevent this pattern? I mean, maybe I can help you. If you are in a situation like that and you feel the need to be honest, maybe you can ask me to communicate with the person you disagree with so you can focus your attention on people who understand you. I can post the insult file from USENET or something similar if you want me to, I can repeat stuff over and over again for people who have IDHT issues and I can try to have a productive discussion. Arcandam (talk) 06:17, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Fuck, I just read your userpage. Please don't retire, we need more guys like you. I can probably help you avoid (most of the) drama in the future. Arcandam (talk) 07:11, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about it -- look at the history of his userpage. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:44, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Special Barnstar
	Can I convince you to stay with one of those shiny thingies? You know some of us appreciate what you do here, right? Arcandam (talk) 07:19, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
	The Defender of the Wiki may be awarded to those who have gone above and beyond to prevent Wikipedia from being used for fraudulent purposes. I hope you decide to stay but if not I understand - I'm pretty close to the same decision myself. If one if doing something for free it should be fun, but it's not much fun anymore. Gandydancer (talk) 08:27, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Resilient Barnstar
	I think the wiki would be worse off if you retire and hope you don't! IRWolfie- (talk) 12:49, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

May 2012

This is your only warning; if you make personal attacks on other people again, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Your conduct and following me around is getting close to harassment. Stop it. Sceptre ^(talk) 22:59, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Andy, please do not fall for this trap. As you are aware, the Wikipedia model often fails to properly handle groups of POV pushers, and providing them with side issues like CIVIL violations is exactly what they need to flourish. My guess is that this case is so silly that the community will reject the POV pushing without any need to respond to the above. Johnuniq (talk) 23:30, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

And it comes from the editor responsible for this. Drmies (talk) 23:40, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

What attack? Link?
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 23:42, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

You're joking if you think that my claim that a person who denies that Manning identified as female is either stupid or transphobic is worse than Andy's claim that I'm being abusive and bigoted for recognising that identity. Sceptre ^(talk) 23:45, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Whatever. I note that you're repeating your earlier assholish comment. I am not sure if I've run into you before, Sceptre, but I've seen your edits, and I always thought you were a sensible person. Too much good faith, perhaps. Whatever Andy said has nothing to do with what you said to Bbb23. Note also that I didn't template you but treated you with a measure of respect; I wonder now if you deserve such respect. Drmies (talk) 23:50, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Deliberate denial of a person's gender identity is recognised as a form of transphobia. Either Andy is deliberately denying Manning's gender identity, or he cannot recognise a black-or-white quote affirming her gender identity. Sceptre ^(talk) 00:00, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

So...because others are disagreeing with you and you don't have consensus that becomes deliberate denial to you? We haven't seen ample coverage in reliable sources. You are an admitted advocate who is here to right great wrongs and I believe your advocacy is blinding you from rational judgment. When you post comments like "Welp, Wikipedia's full of transphobic fucks who insist on gendering a trans woman as a man because of The Sources." (left column under Twitter), I begin to wonder who is really making attacks.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 00:34, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

There is a clear enough statement in the New York source, which we use in the article to source the fact, that Manning was "solid" on her gender identity. I don't know what else is needed. And, as I said, deliberate misgendering is transphobia. And all of my actions to the article complied with MOS:IDENTITY. Sceptre ^(talk) 00:51, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Yeah right—we're all from Transylphobia. Johnuniq (talk) 00:59, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Listen Sceptre, you moronic little turd, there is nothing remotely 'transphobic' about objecting to POV-pushing wankers like you 'assigning' an identity to Manning that he has not publicly declared, based on a selective reading of sources reporting the private conversations of an individual clearly under stress. It is an outright lie that Manning has ever asked to be publicly addressed as 'Breanna', and likewise, it is an outright lie that Manning has ever stated that wishes at present to be publically identified as female. If you can't get your head round the concept that it is possible to question ones gender identity without immediately becoming 'trans' (whatever that means - it is a lot less clear cut, once one leaves the limited domain of 'modern' Western culture), I suggest you look into the subject further. Manning has given no indication of making any decisions, and trying to impose your version of what you think he ought to be is itself bigoted, ignorant, and utterly morally reprehensible. Take your rabble rousing bigotry elsewhere... AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:06, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, tell a LGBT feminist person that they don't know what they're talking about. That's sure to be a good idea. In any case, that last comment has prompted me to open an ANI thread about that comment; seriously dude, even without the warning, calling someone a "moronic little turd" is an obvious block. Sceptre ^(talk) 01:30, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Tell me how you know anything whatsoever concerning my sexuality, or my position regarding sexual politics? You clearly don't - as for AN/I, bring it on, but expect boomerangs... AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:38, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Is this like some sort of cold war arms race ? but instead of blowing up the world, getting banned is the objective, where each side is trying to incrementally match the opposing side ? The US has a bomber on standby so the Russians need two ? Isn't there already enough to destroy the earth several times over without the need to add to the stockpile ?

I'd like to make it very clear that I am -(o)-(o)- watching the lot of you very closely, I won't hesitate to drag the lot of you off to Arbcomm for not playing nice. I've gone to Arbcomm before, I'll do it again, and considering how often I report myself to ANI and what an unpredictable idiot I am, you know full well don't fuck with me over this because there is no telling where it will end with ME in the equation, so please consider if you actually need to say something before saying it, ask yourself "does that person probably, possibly, maybe have some idea that I am not completely head over heals in love with them," if the answer is 'maybe' just think about moving on.

Johnuniq, nice to see you again, popping up somewhere with helpful? comments. Penyulap ☏ 03:45, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Can you clarify whether you are asking me to 'move on' from my own talk page, or whether I'm misinterpreting your comments? Just asking... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:53, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Well if I knew where you lived I'd come to your house take a snack from the fridge, sit on the couch, and when you arrived home I'd be like "can I help you ?'

I'm pretty sure misinterpreting is clear Andy, as your talkage is your own and your home is your castle. I probably lost my cool when I saw all of this section, and wasn't clear. AndyTheGrump, you have my permission to come and wreak havoc on my talkpage as much as you please, vandalise, blank, make yourself at home, but I did not intend to tell you what to do on your own talkpage, I was generalising, I should probably have found a different page not too far away and yelled at everyone from over there, maybe with a picture of a loudhailer so everyone could hear me, or maybe one of those rock-concert sound systems that make the singers all deaf, the older they are, the louder they like it apparently. Yes, I'd have to think about where I can yell at everyone from, there is that bot page, but that is a long way off from all of us, hmm, I'm not sure. Anyhow am I still here ? oh I talk too much, Sorry Andy !, I better go now. Penyulap ☏ 05:32, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

It is probably too late to suggest that you take my foolproof hangover cure - don't drink so much the night before - so I'll have to offer my commiserations instead. Plenty of liquids, a little food if you can keep it down, and a brisk walk in the fresh morning air should help ease the pain... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:57, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

I had something from the fridge when I woke up, ate something, drank some more,. but I'm now thinking I didn't get away from your house briskly enough, maybe I was spotted when you were returning, rats! Penyulap ☏ 06:57, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

At the very least redact the personal attack (i.e moronic turd reference). IRWolfie- (talk) 22:35, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Nope: not while he is going around calling all-and-sundry "transphobic fucks" and "bigots" while using Manning as the fall-guy for his ego-trip, I won't. If he has problems with name-calling, he shouldn't engage in it himself. He is just plain wrong about manning's preferred identity, as has now been made clear - and he evidently can't have looked hard to see what the situation was, with an article in the Washington Blade making Manning's position perfectly clear, and the same article also appearing on the Bradley Manning Support Network website. "From the earliest stages, the Bradley Manning Support Network has sought to honor Manning’s choices. Early in the campaign, we reached out to Manning’s aunt and lawyer and asked what name he preferred we use in our advocacy. They got back to us to say that “Brad” or “Bradley” would be fine... Notably, he didn’t ask us to start referring to him as Breanna. Advocates for Manning have an obligation to respect his agency and use the pronoun he had preferred prior to his arrest. None of us has the right to switch pronouns for Manning unless he tells us otherwise."[1] But then, I've seen no evidence that Sceptre's actions are motivated by support for Manning anyway... AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:54, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Andy, I am wondering if you would be willing to structure your quite valid position in this way "Consider it retracted if A, B, and a cold day in hell if ever C" sort of thing ? Makes it harder for anyone to critique your (exact same) position if you de-emphasise the word No, but use the concept just the same, that is, 'not while'. It's just a though, and feel free to let fly with the foulest of the foul language in my direction to tell me to fuck off with my dumbass ideas, I officially declare I refuse to consider anything you come up with to describe me as a personal attack, as my yearning for an expert opinion in this area is overwhelming. Penyulap ☏ 02:39, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Ok, if Sceptre posts appropriate retractions of his claims that Manning wishes to be known as a woman named 'Breanna' in all the places (on and off Wikipedia) where he has made such claims, and apologises to everyone who has supported Manning's right to assert his own gender identity for stating that such a position was 'transphobic' or 'bigoted', and admits that he failed to adequately investigate the issue in the obvious places (e.g. the Bradley Manning Support Network website) before making such assertions, and makes clear that he understands that 'having gender identity issues as a man' doesn't necessarily mean that you are unambiguously a woman, and that some people are happy enough being neither, or both, or just plain ambiguous, and that 'male' and 'female' are largely social constructs anyway, once one gets beyond a narrow biological-reproductive definition that rarely actually coincides with the social constructs, I'll withdraw my comments... AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:56, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict, I was going to say this, but see that you have avoided nope and used 'I'll withdraw my comments' which is better) Actually it was silly of me to ask, as that is basically what you said in the first place anyhow, it just concerned me as people don't realise that you are a 'man of your word' and so they'd think that you could back out of what you said, which creates a catch-22. Penyulap ☏ 03:01, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

This is your only warning; if you make personal attacks on other people again, as you did at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. TreyGeek (talk) 05:27, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Sceptre is a liar, and a disgrace to the LGBT community - or to any community that believes that individuals have a right to self-identification, and to determine their sexuality and gender identity for themselves. Bradley Manning has made it entirely clear that he wishes to be identified as 'Bradley', not 'Breanna'. That is all that needs to be said. The 'personal attacks' here are being made by people who are exploiting a vulnerable individual for theier own purposes - which in Sceptre's case seems mostly to revolve around pretending to be a martyr. He isn't, he is a moronic little turd, and needs telling so on a regular basis... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:37, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Andy, could you possibly leave it there? It's highly likely you will be blocked if you continue like this. I don't think that will help anyone. --John (talk) 05:42, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

What, he hasn't gone too far already? So far so good? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 06:13, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. --TreyGeek (talk) 05:47, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. --POVbrigand (talk) 09:58, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Award my ASS !

Oh Andy, Andy, Andy, you have such a way with words.
and I'm glad to see that pigs, get what they deserve,
don't you leave the wik, no matter what you do
because without your grumpiness, I shall feel so blue. 8-(
Penyulap ☏ 18:16, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
	absit omen Von Restorff (talk) 20:11, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

		The Biography Barnstar
		Thanks for helping maintain the quality of Wikipedia's BLP's Wasbeer 21:09, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Hello

I wondered if you might like me to change your username. User:AndyTheReallyQuiteChirpy is still available, if you'd like it. Or even User:AndyTheFairlyJollyEspeciallyAfterADecentWikibreak. --Dweller (talk) 10:32, 11 May 2012 (UTC)