User talk:Gracenotes/Archive 8

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COI Templates.

Hi, I'm sending you a message because of your involvement with the Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2007_May_18#Template:COI_and_Template:COI2 discussion. The result of the TfD was no-consensus, but there was a significant expressed consensus for editing the templates to bring them into line with good practice. Unfortunately this has not happened, and the templates have been left pretty much in the state they were before the TfD. Would you like to assist in bringing these templates in line with good practice? --Barberio 16:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Search engine and Google search

Hi Gracenotes. I saw your Search Drop-down suggestion in MediaWiki talk:Common.js. Very good idea. We had implemented it at portuguese Wikipedia. But I think Special:Search with Google should show this page and not this page (they are just examples, searching "help"). Another thing: it is possible to show Google searching results in Special:Search with http://www.google.com/coop/cse/ like this example at Macworld site? One trusted user at portuguese Wikipedia made this Google custom search engine we would like to use it "embedded" in Special:Search. Advantages in this approach? This Google custom search engine doesn't show ads (unless the trusted user use Google AdSense, but of course, is not allowed to do that) and could show results in Special:Search without leaving Special:Search page. I don't know if other search engines have similar tools. Mosca2 21:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I have requested that the parameter as_sitesearch be changed to sitesearch for the Google search. This has been done, and should simplify Google for those who are less familiar with it. Gracenotes^T § 19:48, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Hrm. domains=en.wikipedia.org&sitesearch=en.wikipedia.org seems more convenient for the Google search. Of course, there's only one hidden input element by default, so this would be a bit harder to elegantly implement. The specialized search is not a bad idea, but (for me, at least) it is more convenient to go to regular ol' Google searching a domain.

Finally, Google's AJAX search looks interesting, but it should probably require changes to MediaWiki software itself (rather than to Common.js). Gracenotes^T § 23:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia help desk

Thank you for your advice on the main page, and thank you for following WP:BEANS. :). 81.154.111.25 19:30, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

It's just another way of saying security through obscurity. Sufficiently protecting the Main Page from anything (deletion to malicious editing) is a big issue, into which megabytes of discussion have been poured. The current solution is not bad. Gracenotes^T § 19:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

cite web and subst

So tell me about this? Does it not work because it's in the ref tags? I'm guessing I just shouldn't worry about it, but I'm curious :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 00:42, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

A lot of people complain that cite web takes up a lot of space. For example, too much of this:

{{cite web |author=Doe, John |title=My favorite things part II|publisher=Open Publishing|date=[[2005-04-30]]|work=Encyclopedia of things|url=http://www.example.org/|accessdate=2005-07-06}}

in a paragraph can be distracting. But if you substituted the above template, you would see this:

{{
#if: {{#if: {{{http://www.example.org/|}}} | {{#if: {{{My favorite things part II|}}} |1}}}}
  ||Error on call to [[Template:cite web]]: Parameters '''url''' and '''title''' must be specified
}}{{
#if: {{{archiveurl|}}}{{{archivedate|}}} 
  | {{#if: {{#if: {{{archiveurl|}}}| {{#if: {{{archivedate|}}} |1}}}}
    ||Error on call to [[template:cite web]]: Parameters '''archiveurl''' and '''archivedate''' must be both specified or both omitted
}}
}}{{#if: {{{Doe, John|}}}{{{last|}}}
  | {{#if: {{{authorlink|}}}
    | [[{{{authorlink}}}|{{#if: {{{last|}}}
      | {{{last}}}{{#if: {{{first|}}} | , {{{first}}} }}
      | {{{Doe, John}}}
    }}]]
    | {{#if: {{{last|}}}
      | {{{last}}}{{#if: {{{first|}}} | , {{{first}}} }}
      | {{{Doe, John}}}
    }}
  }}
}}{{#if: {{{Doe, John |}}}{{{last|}}}
  | {{#if: {{{coauthors|}}}| ; {{{coauthors}}} }}
}}{{#if: {{{Doe, John|}}}{{{last|}}}|
    {{#if: {{{[[2005-04-30]]|}}}
    |  ({{{[[2005-04-30]]}}})
    | {{#if: {{{year|}}}
      | {{#if: {{{month|}}}
        |  ({{{month}}} {{{year}}})
        |  ({{{year}}})
      }}
    }}
  |}}
}}{{#if: {{{last|}}}{{{Doe, John|}}}
  | . }}{{
  #if: {{{editor|}}}
  |  {{{editor}}}: 
}}{{#if: {{{archiveurl|}}}
    | {{#if: {{{archiveurl|}}} | {{#if: {{{title|}}} | [{{{archiveurl}}} {{{title}}}] }}}}
    | {{#if: {{{http://www.example.org/|}}} | {{#if: {{{My favorite things part II|}}} | [{{{url}}} {{{My favorite things part II}}}] }}}}
}}{{#if: {{{language|}}} |  <span style="font-size: 0.95em; font-weight: bold; color:#555; position: relative;">({{{language}}})</span> 
}}{{#if: {{{format|}}}
  |  ({{{format|}}})
}}{{#if: {{{Encyclopedia of things|}}}
  | . ''{{{Encyclopedia of things}}}''
}}{{#if: {{{pages|}}}
  |  {{{pages}}}
}}{{#if: {{{Open Publishing|}}}
  | . {{{Open Publishing}}}{{#if: {{{author|}}}{{{last|}}}
    | 
    | {{#if: {{{date|}}}{{{year|}}}{{{month|}}} || }}
  }}
}}{{#if: {{{Doe, John|}}}{{{last|}}}
  ||{{#if: {{{date|}}}
    |  ({{{date}}})
    | {{#if: {{{year|}}}
      | {{#if: {{{month|}}}
        |  ({{{month}}} {{{year}}})
        |  ({{{year}}})
      }}
    }}
  }}
}}.{{#if: {{{archivedate|}}}
  |  Archived from [{{{http://www.example.org/}}} the original] on [[{{{archivedate}}}]].
}}{{#if: {{{doi|}}} 
  |  [[Digital object identifier|DOI]]:[http://dx.doi.org/{{{doi|{{{doilabel|}}}}}} {{{doi}}}].
}}{{#if: {{{2005-07-06|}}}
  |  Retrieved on [[{{{2005-07-06}}}]]{{#if: {{{accessyear|}}} | , [[{{{accessyear}}}]] }}.
}}{{#if: {{{accessmonthday|}}}
  |  Retrieved on {{{accessmonthday}}}, {{{accessyear}}}.
}}{{#if: {{{accessdaymonth|}}}
  |  Retrieved on {{{accessdaymonth}}} {{{accessyear}}}.
}}{{#if: {{{quote|}}} 
  |  “{{{quote}}}”
}}

This is beyond overkill, but I'm not sure that function would be broken. By changing all instances of #if with <includeonly>subst:</includeonly>#if:, and removing the main <includeonly>, all of the #if mess could be condensed (see m:Help:ParserFunctions#Substitution) into this:

Doe, John ([[2005-04-30]]). [http://www.example.org/ My favorite things part II]. ''Encyclopedia of things''. Open Publishing. Retrieved on [[2005-07-06]].

If you're confused about anything, feel free to ask. Gracenotes^T § 01:06, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

So why hasn't that been done to the main cite web template? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:17, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

In case {{cite web}} needs to change, a mass change is simple. Also, having the template transcluded makes the ref a bit more readable. See Wikipedia:Template substitution#Drawbacks of substitution and Wikipedia:Transclusion costs and benefits#Costs and benefits. Gracenotes^T § 02:28, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Java

Opening curly braces on a newline. Keeping consistent line width, and indenting exactly the same way. Yes, he does like this too. Your coding style is identical, John :-p --Deskana (talk) 01:57, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

My RFA

Hello Gracenotes/Archive 8, I just wanted to thank you for giving your comments at my recent RFA. While it didnt pass (I withdrew after it became apparent that the RFA was "sinking like the titanic" =]), I will try to focus on and build upon your comments, and the comments of all the other Wikipedians who participated. Thanks again for voicing your opinion, and I wish you very happy editing! Anonymous Dissident Utter 06:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

MobyGames

I agree with you that the best solution is probably use a bot to wipe the links and then start again. The problem is that the community hasn't got a mechanism to allow this. --BozMo talk 14:12, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Thedjatclubrock

Thanks for my page. Can you fix dec 3rd for me i lost the formatting Thedjatclubrock :) 02:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

'tis done. Gracenotes^T § 02:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank youThedjatclubrock :) 02:52, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

re: 10 things

The subject header scared me, I thought it would follow with '10 things you are doing wrong'. ;) Thanks for telling me about that! Good work all around, methinks. It's very helpful without being too patronising, and I think some people have actually reuploaded images correctly in response to it. I'll adjust my comment on the RfA a little... Riana ⁂ 05:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Template:Mtsu

"redo notice" why hide TFD notice? Nobody hid the TFD notice on the BLP template when it was up for deletion and its one of the heavily used templates... Shinhan 18:44, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The TFD notice is is an attempt to get consensus, and inform all who use the template about the debate. The BLP template is very widely used, and consensus was necessary beyond the regular TFD crowd, so hence the notice. I redid it here because the notice was large, and something inline was needed. I redid it again; does it look okay? Gracenotes^T § 19:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Nothing can make the {{Mtsu}} look okay :)

But I agree it looks better like this. Shinhan 19:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah, good! Gracenotes^T § 19:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

List-generation from categories

Hi there. Thanks for the earthquake list. Is the generation of such lists quite easy? I'm trying to reduce making such lists to a one-click operation. Would I have to use the same set-up you did, or are there other ways. Someone mentioned AWB once. Carcharoth 10:50, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Ooh. I just rediscovered User:PockBot. I'd forgotten about that... :-) Carcharoth 01:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

You can also use code I wrote all by myself here. The generation is quite easy, so long as you alter main() to give the category and the depth that you want. Gracenotes^T § 01:38, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, but mine doesn't have pretty icons :( Gracenotes^T § 01:40, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

my RFA

Thank you for supporting my RFA. I hope I will live up to your expectation. Let me know if you need any help, or I make any mistake. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 23:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Even if you don't live up to my specific expectations, I am still sure that you will make a good admin :) Gracenotes^T § 23:48, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

CharoletteWebb's RfA

I see that you are a more patient and level-headed person than I.  :-) Cheers, ➪HiDrNick! 06:43, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Image red link delinker

Hi. I talked to you a few nights ago about an image red link delinker bot and you were thinking about it. Did you ever get any ideas on how to do it? Do you still have interest in doing it? If not, please let me know and I can try to find someone else. I think getting something going, like my idea that would at least stop new red link images, would be a good first step and then going back and getting all older red linked images may be a good idea. Hope to hear from you soon. MECU≈talk 13:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

User:Martinp23/NPWatcher has an image delinker part that may be helpful? Perhaps even adding on to the bad old ones tool (by Magnus) where clicking "delete" on there would automatically cause all links to the image to be delinked. The tool already does a checkusage where the image is used so it would already know and be able to just go there and delink. MECU≈talk 13:35, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Your idea is a good first step, and at least it's a place to start :) I'm busy at the moment with standardized testing fun, but will look into your solution with a bit more detail later. Cheers, Gracenotes^T § 14:45, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

It appears being patient will pay off. The CommonsDelinker folks are working on getting the delinker available for local wikis to do just this. They said about a month and a few beers and we will have it here. MECU≈talk 19:45, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

questions about your java code

I'm trying to port my bot from pywikipedia to java, and I found your code very helpful. I'm an experienced java programmer, but not so good with http. If you don't mind, I have a couple of questions. In WikiEdit.editPage, why do you need the inputReader/Stream at the end? It seems like the outputWriter/Stream is where you send the text of the new page, and I can't figure out that last block. Also, the api.php docs say to use a POST command to login, even though the example given is a GET command. I don't understand what the difference is exactly, but I think you've used a GET, but maybe I'm wrong. Do you know what that's referring to? And do you know if it's possible to use api.php for the read/edit of a page? It looks like it's just for the special pages/categories/links/etc. I appreciate that you posted your code -- it's helped me get started. In fact, I don't really need answers to my questions to continue, I'm just curious. So, don't worry about it if you don't have the time to answer. Thanks, Ingrid 16:16, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The code says that it's in version .1, but actually, it's somewhere closer to .02 or something :) I have a more developed version of the classes; I will update them soon, if it helps.

Also, I think I can answer your questions (I'm not a professional Java programmer, but I know enough), although now I have to go to a party. I'll be more than glad to go into more detail when I return. Cheers, Gracenotes^T § 19:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

As I mentioned below, I figured out most of the answers for myself. All of a sudden though, it stopped working, and I can't figure out what I'm doing differently. I'm getting an error message: "Sorry! We could not process your edit due to a loss of session data. Please try again. If it still doesn't work, try logging out and logging back in." Do you have any idea what that means, or how to fix it? Ingrid 01:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

The exact same thing happened to me. To make regular requests to the server as a logged-in user (for example, access your watchlist), you should send three cookies to the server: enwikiToken, enwikiUserID, and enwikiUserName. These cookies are not sufficient to make an edit, though. For that, you'll need an additional cookie, called enwiki_session (session data). This fourth cookie cannot be retrieved from logging in; you'll get it from a Set-Cookie header from a page like http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Page&action=edit. To make an edit (to /w/index.php?title=Page&action=submit), send all four cookies, and also the required data. Hopefully it'll work ;) Gracenotes^T § 02:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for trying to explain, but I'm still confused. Isn't this already happening in your WikiSessionManager.addCookies? I've got my own code for my bot, but am using your WikiSessionManager and WikiEdit (basically -- I've added maxlag and throttle and some other things to WikiEdit, but am using WikiSessionManager unchanged). I know you just put it up as an example, but it was working well for me at first. Ingrid 15:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

After a bit of communication with Tim Starling, I figured out the problem. A summary of it can be seen here, and it has to do with encoding of the edit token. I have updated User:Gracenotes/Java code for security, common practice, efficiency, and the like (diff); it also contains a fix for the bug that you discovered.

Hopefully this makes the framework more usable. There is probably room for an static XMLPage object that can get the content of XML pages and has functions for parsing them (not as complicated as any XML parsers that Sun currently offers, but useful for dealing with the API). Gracenotes^T § 00:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) Thank you. That fixed it (with a couple of minor adjustments, which I changed on your code page -- you'd commented out getting the response after a write, and hadn't updated WikiEditTest). I also edited my copy of WikiSessionMgr to load Wikipedia:Sandbox in userLogin to get the session data there, but didn't change your version. And I've got maxlag and throttle implemented in mine. If you'd like me to share any of my code, let me know. I plan to publish the bot's source code when it's a little more done, but I'll share whatever you're interested in early, if you want. Ingrid 13:48, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

PicMark

Oh what have I done?! Yesterday I updated my .js with a new script, and my picMark hasn't worked since. I've tried reverting and purging the cache on the page, but it still doesn't work... it just gets stuck on the "Setting text" step. At first, I thought it may be a change in the script, but I see it hasn't been edited since you made it. Do you know what I'm doing wrong? Thanks for all your help. tiZom_(2¢) 00:41, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

This morning, I fiddled with some things, and got it working again. Possibly some kind of greasemonkey script that I installed? I have no idea how these things work, so thank God for people like you! Hope your vacation is going well! tiZom_(2¢) 13:39, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Template wizardry requested

Hi Gracenotes,

Clicking through Category:Wikipedians who like trigonometry on your user page, I found that Category:Wikipedians interested in mathematics doesn't list the trigonometry cat as a sub-cat, but does contain an infinite list of Category:Wikipedians who like geometry.

I traced that to Template:User geometry. I briefly groped around for some template wizardry to add there that would do something like only adding the cat if the template is transcluded on a user page, but I wasn't sure how to do that, nor if it would be the best approach. So now I come to you to ask what you would do and how you would do it :-)

On a totally unrelated note (pun not intended (why do people write 'pun not intended' after making a pun?)), I heard your piano improvisation and it reminded me slightly of some Mike Oldfield composition, couldn't quite figure which. Do you know him? I hope you don't completely loathe his music :-)

Regards, Phaunt 19:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind me eavesdropping (BTW Gracenotes, I've figured out most of my java questions & am porting my bot successfully, so far). I recently solved a similar template problem, so I went ahead and made the change to {{User geometry}}. Let me know if you want me to explain, or if it's not working as expected. Ingrid 20:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not familiar with him at all. From what you've said, though, it seems like I would enjoy his music; I shall look into it. Gracenotes^T § 04:53, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Cool! I feel Amarok is a masterpiece, but it may take some getting used to; Tubular Bells is of course a classic and a good starting point, and Ommadawn would be a nice starting point too. Whether you like it or loathe it, I'd love to hear what you think of his music. If I hear that piano fragment again that your improvisation reminded me of, I'll let you know. Phaunt 12:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Template:AIV

I saw you were going to subst all the {{AIV}} warnings, but I saved you some time and took RBot for a spin. :) --(Review Me) R ^ParlateContribs_@ (Let's Go Yankees!) 04:26, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I see! Thank you :) Gracenotes^T § 21:53, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

New York Times article

Congratulations on getting featured in the New York Times[1]... well, I assume it was you, unless they got you confused with that other User:Grace Note. I see you live around Poughkeepsie... that's where I grew up, and my mom still lives there. I notice the article mentions you being nominated for adminship, but doesn't say any more about how that worked out. *Dan T.* 02:09, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess "congratulations" is the word. Unusually for the Times, the article is fairly reasonable in its attitude towards Wikipedia. Ford MF 02:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes. The idea of the article is that it took a perspective on Wikipedia that isn't usually explored by "the press". I can also see that it quoted one of my more, uh, articulate comments. Gracenotes^T § 02:57, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, "congratulations" fits, because you're now the face of Wikipedia in what is perhaps the best article about Wikipedia ever published in major media. · jersyko talk 04:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I was just coming over here to say what Jersyko beat me to. Tvoz |talk 15:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Yep, congratulations :) Natalie's there as well. Prepare for Talk page flooding :) Fvasconcellos (t·c) 15:45, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I saw that too. Congratulations, Matthew :). Nishkid64 (talk) 22:38, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Excellent! Well done. How did this come to pass? -- Y not? 23:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Congrats again. I responded on my talk. ⇒ SWATJester ^{Denny Crane.} 14:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, congrats... your cover has been blown (I thought you were female). -- tariqabjotu 18:33, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Cool. A national newspaper. Congrats! (ya, I know this is late :P) --Iamunknown 07:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

AfD log for Cosmonaut (Angels and Airwaves song)

I moved the entry for this AfD you started from the bottom of the list to near the top so that is appears in the correct position chronologically. I believe the log entry system recently changed from adding new entries to the bottom; you now list new entries at the top of the list. Regards, Flyguy649^talk_contribs 05:12, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I do recall that change, but have not frequented AfD in a while; so, old habits kick in. I appreciate your reminder. Cheers, Gracenotes^T § 05:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

My recent RfB

Thank you so much for your participation in my recent RfB. Though it closed with 72% support (below the required 90%), I'm still quite pleased at the outpouring of support shown by a fair percentage of the community.

I'm currently tabulating and calculating all opposing and neutral arguments to help me better address the community's concerns about my abilities as a bureaucrat. If you'd like, you can follow my progress (and/or provide additional suggestions) at User:EVula/admin/RfB notes. Thanks again! EVula // talk // ☯ // 04:38, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Happy Birthday

• FROM YOUR FRIEND:

 ThinkBlue  (Hit BLUE) 00:31, 04 July 2007 (UTC)

Happy birthday fellow Cancer!

The Wikipedia Birthday Committee wishes you a very happy birthday! Enjoy your special day.

Happy birthday Gracenotes, from somebody who's birthday is also, well, July 4th! Cheers --RobNS 00:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Hey, neat... My birthday is July 4th, too! Yet another thing I've got in common with Gracenotes! *Dan T.* 00:53, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, is there a list? ;) Happy birthday to you as well, Dan! And thanks, everyone, for stopping by. I appreciate it. Gracenotes^T § 01:05, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Dispute about Phi Kappa Psi

On Talk:Phi Kappa Psi there is a link to RfM/Phi Kappa Psi. On the talk page for the RfM, you may find the discussion that has thus far occurred. I am — and I believe that the other two accounts involved in the dispute are — waiting for the mediator to indicate the next step. I do not know why the mediator has been silent on the dispute since the other two accounts responded (in mid-June) to his-or-her request for a summary of their views, unless it is because he-or-she became convinced during the interval between my response (on 7 June) and the others that the dispute had somehow evaporated. —SlamDiego_←T 01:12, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Happy Birthday!

Hungry? Here's a little snack for you on your birthday, from the Wikipedia Birthday Committee! Have a great day, Gracenotes/Archive 8!

-BigBrotherIsWatchingYou 08:51, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Happy Birthday - Cometstyles 13:20, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

My RFA

Hi Gracenotes, just a quick note to say thanks for participating in my policy examination session request for adminship. It was successful and I now have some shiny new buttons. If I can ever be of help, please let me know. Happy birthday and happy editing, mattbr 10:22, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

My RfA

Thank you for your support in my recent RfA. However, it was unsuccessful. I am in no way disheartened, and I will hopefully succeed in a month or two. If you have any further suggestions or comments, feel free to drop me a line on my talk page, and I will be happy to respond. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 02:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

French Wikipedian

Hello, i'm french . I have seen a beautiful things, and you are the author ... So, i would like to obtain the code ... There is the boîte déroulante (in french, sorry), on the special pages : Special:Search ! Can you give me the syntaxe (code) ? Thank you, answer me on fr:Discussion Utilisateur:Stef48

On fr french we used the same template, but, we want the code with the <div> and others ... Thanks, best regards 82.252.47.19 19:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

9th Circuit

Hi GN -- Just FYI, he's probably talking about this, not any ruling specific to him. Cheers, Mackan79 01:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, okay. Thanks! I'll clarify this. Gracenotes^T § 01:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

While we wait for other comments (polling or not is ok with me), should it mention Jimbo's statement?[2] Mackan79 20:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable. Feel free to add it. Gracenotes^T § 22:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The quote on your userpage

I read that article last week and really liked it. Then I went to Wikipedia and looked up swarm theory :) — thesublime514 • talk • 04:41, July 9, 2007 (UTC)

Neat! I especially liked that article. It reminded me of Gödel, Escher, Bach (one of my favorite books; it discusses philosophical issues related to holism vs. reductionism, summing up parts). 22:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)