User talk:Mathsci/Archive 6

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Thanks for letting me know about him reporting me. I wonder what he claims I've done? Edward321 03:06, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


You're doing a really nice job on Marseille page... I was willing to do the translatios from french page, but didn't find the time... Cperroquin 15:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me??

Which references of mine are of dubious authority??? That is a VERY strong claim, please tell me which one you think are? And why you think so? And what authority you have to back that strong claim UP?? Because I will give you more info. to look at....And funny you say my references are dubious yet what have you brought?? Nothing but hostility! Isn't your specialty math BTW?? And I will delete what I want on my page! Why are you so offended that Constantine spreaded Chrisitianity...why is this bothering you?? BTW are you an admin?? No didn't think so, who are you to talk down on me? And like I said I will delte whatever I want on my page, so back off!!!(Scipio3000 15:15, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

So you call these dubious, why??? I suppose your math proffession gives you authority over proffessional historians and reputable publishers...I am going to write them a note and tell them they are being accused of being dubious and I will have them reply to you to refute this Wild claim!

M. Spilling(editor), "Battles of the Ancient World."(Barnes & Noble, Inc, 2007)*

C. Scarre, "The Penguin historical Atlas of Ancient Rome."(Penguin books, 1995)

H. Hearder, "Italy:A short history."(Cambridge University press, 1990)

A. Jotischky & C. Hull, "The Penguin Historical Guide of the MEdieval World."(Penguin books, 2005)

G.Parker(ed.), "The Compact history of the world."(Times books, 1995)

    • You call Cambridge University Press, Time Corp., Barnes & Noble, and Penguin book group...dubious??? WOW! Unbelievable, how low people can go to try to be right when history say's otherwise.

So which is dubious?? And what material have you brought to counter this and why so hostile that a Roman spread Christianity...when it is the truth? Constantine did spread Christianity! Do all Romans offend you so much? Just curious as to why you have become so hostile, it can't be because I mistakenly wrote in your archive page which I apologized for? That would go above and beyond the way you are talking down on me, so the only thing I can think of is the Constantine/Christianity issue, what else could it be?? I anxiously wait your answer, KIND sir.Scipio3000 15:36, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

The reason we are able to enjoy history today, is because previous generations felt it was imperative to pass down historical facts completely intact and with the fullest integrity regarding historical accuracies, names, dates and events. It is our duty to continue this trend for all future generations(Scipio3000 15:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

Please try to act more civilly. Also please try to avoid adding comments in strange places, no matter how tempting you find it.
Other people spread christianity long before Constantine, for example the early christians and one rather famous one in particular. During this time the Romans, and most notably Diocletian, were doing their level best institutionally to persecute christians; or do you disagree with that? Constantine the Great was great, but was not the greatest european of all time. (That was beyond a doubt J. Arthur Prufrock. Well, either him or Harry Potter. Or was it Peter Rabbit? I think he counts as european...)
Shouldn't that be the penguin historical "atlas" rather than "guide"? In one of the references you provided I read that the Sicilian normans were (a) of viking stock and (b) continued to write documents in latin, greek and arabic. Where I come from, a long long time ago we were raped and pillaged by the vikings; and yet even now they still come over to shop for perforated underwear at Marks and Spencer, if you can believe it! We also learnt ancient greek and latin at school and could watch marvelous TV programmes with John Julius Norwich as presenter. Have you read any of his books? --Mathsci 16:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I agree with you on one thing Harry Potter may well be the Greatest European Ever! I don't think Constantine was even that great either, but without him the spread of Christianity could be doubtful. With the logistics of the empire and the systems in place it spread like the plague(I hope that didn't sound rude, I am just trying to make a point on the speed). Where do you come from are you French? Just curious and thank you for taking a kinder tone with me, I am truly trying my best and I will be more than happy to consult with you on whatever you like, thank you again for the lighter message, I needed that, take car(Scipio3000 16:43, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

Never mind I see your British...I was thinking maybe Northern France since you said Vikings, but we all know of William the conqueror and Hastings...But The English wrestled control back...btw I love English culture, full of mythology and chivalry. Plus British people are tough as nails and strong-willed and proud. Also without the English, Italy may never have been united. Do they still teach Latin and Greek in schools at England? They don't teach Ancient history or geography in America unfortuantely. Also the British have a deep respect for history in general and a passion for Ancient Rome which I admire...there is alot that can be learned from the past and I wish more Americans knew the history of Rome better as one day we may be heading in that direction, take care.(Scipio3000 16:47, 13 August 2007 (UTC))

Please do not make racist comments on my talk page. --Mathsci 21:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
To be more explicit: you are stereotyping according to presumed nationality. This seems obnoxious to me. --Mathsci 21:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
On a more positive note, nobody is out to get you, quite the contrary. If you're fluent in italian and english, you could perform a valuable service by helping to transfer some of the information on the italian WP pages onto the english WP. Many people would appreciate this. Think positive! --Mathsci 22:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


Hi -- I suspect you probably don't want to deal with anything relating to this, but I just have a quick question. I'm an undergraduate student studying mathematics. I'm wondering whether I should spend any time looking over his books (for mathematical content) or not. If not, should I bother looking over them for a little bit of "what math shouldn't look like"? Thanks, Nate --Npchandle 23:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

First look at the highly enjoyable and brilliant web site / blog of Terence Tao (a quickly chosen example). Then look very briefly at the books, articles and virtual journals on Smarandache's web site. Afterwards draw your own conclusions. Good luck and thanks for the question. --Mathsci 23:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your advice. I think I'll start following this blog. But for me the question remains: it's clear to me that Smarandache is not a clear writer of mathematics and so at least in that way I suppose his "work" is a valuable example of what not to do; but what isn't clear to me is whether his entire ouvre is a work of relevant (or at least coherent) mathematics and not a large piece of 'internet installation art' or a scam (Did he invent all his collaborators?). I don't want or expect you to dig into his stuff for me, but I don't want to spend a great deal of time trying to see through the smoke of his (intentionally?) poor English and symbolism. So if you do have any advice resulting from your previous investigation into that article, I would greatly appreciate hearing it. In other words, I've drawn the conclusion that it is more or less nonsense, but I'm not confident that I'm just failing to understand. Thanks for your time!  : ) Nate(Npchandle 18:10, 20 August 2007 (UTC))
In the words of the great Scottish nobel laureate Alexander Todd (a former colleague), "You're not wrong." :-) The PlanetMath article on Smarandache provides a different perspective, confirming much of what you write. --Mathsci 19:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

An interjection midstream

It's nice that you noticed my interjection and contacted me about it. The post that I queried in prime_number:talk has been standing there for a good while and has apparently been dismissed as nonsense or original research by other editors who care about the prime number page. The poster did not sign and cannot feel that he is getting a respectful hearing; I think there is some previous speculation about his(?) identity. I don't feel I have done wrong by hopefully coaxing him into a dialog. That, if he responds, is the only way to get better understanding. I believe I chose natural breaks in his long post, was polite, and used indentations to keep the talk as coherent as possible. I'm sorry if the effect was not as intended.Cuddlyable3 16:30, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Hello again. I commented not on the content but the manner of your edits, which you could have correctly reinserted yourself. WP is not a math forum like sci.math and slightly different rules apply. BTW the OP used an anonymous IP for one day to write what seems to be complete nonsense, now that I have read his post. What do you mean by "giving him a respectful hearing"? --Mathsci 20:00, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
If he likes to explain things he has said about Euclid's proof, products of primes and a "last prime" then I may learn something. I don't understand why you ask me to define "giving respectful hearing" which seems implied by WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. Cuddlyable3 19:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Because what he says is unsourced and WP is about verifiable sources. It's as simple as that. What you feel personally about it is completely irrelevant. You are just wasting other people's time by going on about this piece of mathematical nonsense. Kindly stop. Mathsci 19:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Cuddlyable3's edits to Talk:Prime number

I restored the edits you reverted from Talk:Prime number and moved them past the end of the comment they had been inserted in the middle of. In my judgment, anytime someone makes a good-faith contribution to a talk page but does so in an improper manner, it should be corrected in such a way as to reflect how it should have been done, with minimal alteration to the content. Fair enough? --Mwalimu59 19:00, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I left a polite message on Cuddlyable3's talk page explaining why interspersing remarks in somebody else's edit was not a very good idea, in case you hadn't noticed. I expected Cuddlyable3 to reinsert her/his comments correctly herself/himself. --Mathsci 19:36, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for moving my questions, I don't mind at all. Cuddlyable3 13:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

When you reverted AbcXyx's changes to Prime number, did you intend to revert only the trivial rearrangement of the interwiki links? There were six edits, many much more major, and you only reverted the last of them. —David Eppstein 21:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Myth of Marseille Foundation

Nice rewrite... Even if mixing legend and history is questionable. Just 2 points, I put 2 different source because there was a variation between the 2 version. You kept the main story... I'm going to remove the other source... Also, you said : this was the Old Port of Marseille. Well at that it wasn't... I'm not sure how to say that... Cperroquin 07:39, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I changed prince to chief, which goes better with tribe and is standard usage in english language history books. I removed the reference to the Vieux-Port. It was a "spoiler" and interrupts the readers digest story-telling. As for mixing legend and history, this applies also to the Mary Magdalen legend, which I think needs to be mentioned, even if it's hard believe that she came from the Holy Land in a boat without rudder or sail. Like the legend of Protis and Gyptis, it is quite poetic and revealing. (This cannot be said of Francois Premier's shipwrecked rhinceros or Louis XIV blasting a hole in the city walls of Marseille!) However I think creating too many new sections risks making the article mushroom and become disproportionately long. There is still a lot from the french WP article that it would be nice to have here ... Cheers,Mathsci 08:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)


I "blanked" nothing. I made a good faith attempt to refactor the section to focus on the actual issues and to allow for a hopefully constructive and fruitful discussion. Your restoration of all the irrelevant WP:SOAP and WP:CIV violations does nothing for the article, the discussion nor Wikipedia. You have objected and reverted my refactoring, so the material says...but I wanted to clarify my intent as well as my actions. The discussion there is non-productive, IMHO. Dreadstar 05:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification. I agree with you that most of the material in this section has little or nothing to do with the editing of the main article. The section, however, does provide other WP editors with data for assessing how carefully sourced and verifiable some possible future edits to the main page might be. Best, Mathsci 06:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I see...well, I may have missed the important data for assessing the sourcing and verification of material, it may have been lost in all the mayhem...that's why I was trying to refactor. The material I removed from the section was just about to be copied (in it's entirety) to the last archive I created for the talk page, but since it's been restored, it's unnecessary. Talk page archeologists would have been able to dig it out had they found the need or had the desire to do so...but I'm certain the entire section will be totally archived eventually...possibly very soon. Dreadstar 06:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Please do not transfer comments that I left on your talk page to mine. Thanks in advance,Mathsci 06:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
No problem. And when you reply to any of my posts that I've made on your talk page, please put your repsonse on your own talk page, not on mine - that way I can have a full discussion to read instead of half-a-one. I'll watchlist your page if I'm expecting a response. Dreadstar 22:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a fixed convention. Putting talk comments on an OP's page means that the OP is alerted automatically by a banner. I usually just stick to one page like you, but adapt to other editors if need be. BTW this afternoon wasn't the best time to refactor as it turned out (look at WP:AN/I). Cheers,Mathsci 22:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
The block by Jimbo was the reason I felt comfortable archiving the discussion. If its contents are needed as evidence, there are the diffs and the section itself in archive number 16. Is that what you mean, or is there something else on ANI about it? I think talk pages need to be managed so far as uncivil and racist remarks go, if readers or newbie editor see that kind of's bad, and can possibly scare some people away. Dreadstar 22:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
No. The block took place several hours after you attempted to refactor the page; why are you saying otherwise? This morning I was advised by User:Theresa knott, following a WP email exchange, to conduct a discourse with fourdee. Somewhat reluctantly I worked out a way of doing it. In order for it not to be blanked and for it to be public, I did it in the section where I had posted my initial warning to him. That is what you interrupted. Archive 16 had already been made (by you?). Bonne nuit, Mathsci 22:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
No. You are confused. I said the archiving, which was done 51 minutes after the block. I wasn't talking about the previous refactoring. You're obviously in a different time zone than I am, so "this afternoon" is when I did the archiving not the refactoring. And yes, I added the material to archive 16 that I created days ago. I had no idea I was interrupting your gameplan...had I known, I wouldn't have touched a thing. I was trying to move the discussion forward and get rid of the uncivil remarks. Dreadstar 23:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm in the USA, Eastern time, so our timeframess are just a bit different. When you said "afternoon" I thought you meant my afternoon time, not yours. Sorry for the confusion. I think we got off on the wrong foot? I think we're in agreement on most things...and in total agreement on others...with a minor misunderstanding in-between....;) Dreadstar 23:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm only talking about the refactoring, not the archiving. I'm sorry if there has been any misunderstanding. There was no game plan. Fourdee's remarks were not uncivil. That is exactly the point. Fourdee was not insulting the particular person he was talking to. He was making outrageous and indefensible general statements. That is quite a different story and is presumably the reason he has received a ban. --Mathsci 23:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

LOL! I think we cross-posted apologies...;) See mine right above yours...I thought "Bonne nuit" meant "good night" and you were off to bed! I said "uncivil" because that's what I think his outrageous and indefensible general statements were, even if they weren't directed at any particular person..they were directed at much larger and more serious concerns. I think that's pretty uncivil, and while there may be a better word for it, I'm sure that's part of the reason he was banned..those terrible comments... I'm not sorry to see him gone. Dreadstar 23:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
It's 1:36 in the morning here. I find it confusing myself because, this side of the pond, I see two different sets of times on WP. It does mean I'm allowed my elevenses twice;-) Best, Mathsci 23:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Heh! Actually, I think this means you can get your elevenses four times..your twice-times and on my twice-times...I get the same double-time as you, it's 8:07pm might...<shhh>...gain a few careful with those elevenses...I'm on Atkins myself...;) Dreadstar 00:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

new policy

any thoughts about this? Slrubenstein   |  Talk 22:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Sami people

I removed a Turk, a Chechen and a Georgian. Then I removed the Sami woman so that there are no incomplete rows in the gallery. MoritzB 14:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I made a comment about the Turk to the talk page. Do you agree?
MoritzB 15:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
There seem to be very few Southern Europeans: Sicilians, Corsicans, Sardinians, Spaniards, Greeks, etc. I'm in favour of diversity. And what about Björk? --Mathsci 16:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm with you on the diversity. --Kevin Murray 19:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
And what about Sir Tom Jones? What's the difference between him and Bjork? I do not understand. I agree with you absolutely on diversity. If there is anything at all, I would like a patchwork of different (anonymous) people illustrating the rich texture of european people, of all types. The Sami woman is the only person that comes close to this - I would of course prefer her to be surrounded by reindeer (like the image I linked to on MoritzB's page). What I have in mind is the sort of thing you can see in National Geographic which celebrates european life in all its forms. (Of course I think the original premise for this WP article is absurd and quite offensive.) --20:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
This page is not about European lifestyles. The propriety of the title is under discussion. The more appropriate title of this topic should be European ethnic groups or something along those lines. This may end up just being a disambiguation location directing to more specific topics. --Kevin Murray 20:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with this as well. At least two distinct topics seem to be mixed up here and the result is a nonsensical and self-contradictory article. I've already supported the suggestion that it be split and become a redirect to two (or more) new or already existing articles. Might this not be more straightforward to carry through now that two of the more radical contributors are no longer editing WP? --Mathsci 20:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, please also join the discussion on the disambiguation at White people. What I'd like to do is reach a consensus on making these both disambiguation sign posts, and then figure out where the meat of the information should reside. My interst generaly lies in the evolution and migration of populations. --Kevin Murray 21:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with you about White People: a disambiguation page seems to be the only solution for a page which should never have been created in the first place. If somebody suggests reduction to a disambiguation page, I'll willingly add my vote. But this seems to be a deeply problematic page, which I'd rather not touch. On the other hand European people seems a much more easily solvable problem. I think Alun and Slrubenstein seem to have a very good grasp of what needs to be done. I am quite happy to lend support there. --Mathsci 21:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


Hi, thanks for the contributions to the gallery of Europeans. This has been a contentious evolution, where the concensus has developed to avoid: (1) B&W photos, (2) minimize major celebrities, (3) try to demonstrate a broad range of ethnicities, avoiding people of mixed heritage, and (4) to try to keep a careful balance of young and mature - me and women. A radical departure from our consensus will bring about more bickering and some people to push for elimination of the gallery. Can we slow down on the additions and try to move back toward the balance? Thanks! --Kevin Murray 19:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

But I see very clearly Gordon Brown. Could you explain to me why he is not a major celebrity? Please could you explain this to me. Also I am unclear whether there is a clear division into nationality, however that is defined. If you don't allow B&W pictures, would it not be better to have no gallery at all? --Mathsci 19:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't like Gordon Brown being there nor do I like the prohibition against B&W photos, but I'm trying to protect a consensus of compromise from unravelling. I don't see your point of rather having no gallery to a color only gallery. --Kevin Murray 20:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Number Theorists

I see you're trying to add many 20th century number theorists to the Number Theory article. It does indeed seem to require this, and it is indeed hard to know when to stop. I figure there must be a better way to organize this or something. The entire page is quite lacking. If you have any ideas, I'd be glad to hear them. RobHar 03:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I was shocked, appalled and horrified that Atle Selberg wasn't in the list but Erdos was (he does appear above, but his greatest work is not mentioned). The article is not great, in fact it's terribly written. The Riemann zeta function or Dirichlet's theorem on primes in an arithmetic progression are not mentioned. Why are arithmetic progressions only mentioned in combinatorial number theory and is this really a subject: surely additive number theory is more accurate. As far as 20th century number theory goes, I think that splitting it up into the disciplines that evolved in the 20C is advisable. There's also all of motives, Beilinson, Voevodsky, Bloch, ... And I keep wanting to add Ribet, Rubin, Mazur, Michael Harris; but NOT Lang. There's also Arakelov theory. And of course our friends in additive number theory, Tao, Gowers, Green, ... So I think the first exercise is to make subject divisions for the modern era of number theory (perhaps using Weil's dates) and proceed from there. I favour using part of the AMS classification for mathematical reviews (mathscinet) rather than what's on WP, if this page is anything to go by. Then each section can link to other articles and try to survey 20C and beyond (eg new breakthroughs like the Sato-Tate conjecture). However, I'm not that interested in editing this kind of page. Here are the AMS subject breakdowns in Number theory which I think are relevant.
Diophantine equations 
Discontinuous groups and automorphic forms 
Algebraic number theory
Arithmetic algebraic geometry 
Geometry of numbers
Transcendental number theory
Analytic number theory
Additive number theory
Computational number theory and cryptography
But I would add motives and multiple zeta functions, Langlands program, links with representation theory, etc. in the appropriate places. Sorry not to be of more help. Perhaps User:R.e.b. might help you ... he knows a lot more about this than me. --Mathsci 03:48, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Having worked out who you are (I couldn't quite work out your thesis supervisor), you seem to be in an ideal position to rewrite the article yourself and it could be quite fun. (I left out Sarnak and Katz ... sorry, but they were in very good company.) Provided you are not allergic to some bits of number theory, that is. Cheers, Mathsci 04:14, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I could probably help provide some content to this page, however I'm not well versed in the history of number theory, and definitely not from a non-western point of view. I'm also not that interested in editing this type of article. What I would like to do with this page is add some structure to it to facilitate and encourage other people to provide useful and relevant content. Breaking up the various sections further based on subject is definitely a good idea. I will probably at least revamp the section on the 20th century (perhaps as a model for the other sections). —Preceding unsigned comment added by RobHar (talkcontribs) 17:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


I'd be interested to know more. Could you give me a url for what you're talking about?? A.J.Chesswas 20:16, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Um, well there's this and this, for example. Mathsci 22:24, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
haha! of course... :) A.J.Chesswas 23:48, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

von Neumann

Thanks for reverting your reversion. It seems like a never-ending battle to keep the "V"s in order on the von Neumann-related articles. Von Neumann should always be capitalized when it starts a sentence or an article title. You wouldn't call it of Mice and Men. Robert K S 03:07, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately this is not always the case. I looked on mathscinet for articles with titles starting with von Neumann with a small v. In the scientific literature there seems to be no set convention, even in the best journals. As you will note from this list the two Fields medallists in von Neumann algebras, Alain Connes and Vaughan Jones, do not capitalize in their addresses to the ICM. Neither do Mikhael Gromov, Donald Ornstein, Kurt Friedrichs, George Mackey, Jacques Dixmier, Huzihiro Araki or Israel Halperin (a student of von Neumann). The tendency in the subject of von Neumann algebras seems to be not to capitalize the v in von Neumann; that has always been my impression.
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Mathsci 16:53, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately the WP:MoS seems to take no firm stance on this issue yet. However, the capitalization article makes it plain that in German the von would be capitalized at the start of a sentence and this discussion in the WikiProject Mathematics archive largely agrees. Wikipedia can't speak for the style parameters employed by various other journals, but when in doubt we should look to the conventions in the source languages for guidance, and on this point the source language convention seems clear. Cheers, Robert K S 17:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
But von Neumann was Hungarian not German. WPs manual of style only provides guidelines. Do you have any information at all on what happens in hungarian? Mathsci 17:22, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Careful! "Johann von Neumann" was the Germanization Neumann Janos started to employ when he began his education in Germany. Robert K S 17:26, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I believe he added "von" later. Incidentally does WP provide any guidelines as to whether we should also consider von Neumann algebras defined on non-separable Hilbert spaces? The current article seems to sidestep this issue completely. Do you have strong views on this burning topic too? --Mathsci 17:31, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Watch the cheek, lad. :-) Robert K S 17:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
But it is you that are making comments on a mathematical WP article apparently completely outside your expertise. Why? --Mathsci 17:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
My attempt at levity apparently notwithstanding, you seem to be serious, so my response is twofold. First, your above remark is intolerant and out of line. Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Articles benefit from the contributions of experts, but no editor is barred from making useful contributions on the basis of what his diploma says, which school he matriculated from, what profession he earns his living from, any more than he would be barred from making contributions on the basis of the color of his skin, his religious creed, or his social or financial standing. To say otherwise is elitist and counter to the mission of the encyclopedia which requires broad input on every article. I do hope you concur wholeheartedly. My second response is that I do consider myself something of an expert on the subject of this individual, having studied and collected materials relating to his life and work. Robert K S 17:51, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

If I may interject, in mathematics, the article in von Neumann's name is always lowercase. Of course, he made multiple important contributions to other fields of human knowledge (not to mention politics). I wouldn't at all be surprised if, for example, in reporting on his testimony in US Congress, The NY Times used a different variant. Likewise, various publishers have the own "house style" for everything, including the name spellings and the placement of diacritical marks. Paul Halmos very vividly relates his disgust and outrage at Encyclopaedia Britannica's handling of his article on – you've guessed it – John von Neumann (he was so upset with the house editor's "improvements" that he demanded, successfully, that his authorship of the piece not be revealed). Still, there is a clear established convention in how to spell his name (somewhat belabored in the bibliographical references above). And as far as personal nouns are concerned, the tradition should always take precedence to the "rules", no matter how carefully constructed.

Concerning the "broad input" remark above, it is always appreciated, but certainly not required, and cannot entirely replace expert knowledge. And there is absolutely no need to escalate minor disagreements into charges of racism or religious intolerance. Cheers, Arcfrk 18:41, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

If User:Robert K S has problems with the fact that senior mathematicians are editing the page on von Neumann algebras, I suggest he addresses those problems in private. He might also devote a little time to understanding what a type II1 factor might be. --Mathsci 19:31, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
If you believe I have displayed rudeness to you, Mathsci, as you indicate on my talk page, I sincerely apologize. My interest in conformity of presentation across the whole of the encyclopedia is foremost irrespective of my interest in or knowledge of the mathematics involved, which, it need hardly be pointed out, is irrelevant to the language issue of whether the v in von Neumann should be capitalized at the beginnings of sentences. If, as it seems, you advocate an insularization of topics on Wikipedia to those most fluent in them, I approach article creation from the direction of generalization and accessibility. As to the evidence of usage of the lowercase "v" in journal article titles provided above, it does show lack of standardization on this issue, at least in the realm of mathematical publications which may use the term "von Neumann" in a way that has become far divorced from the man, his name, and the usage conventions associated with the German language. But the list above scarcely presents itself as any sort of conclusion. For every instance above, instances of the opposite usage are easily citable (in, for example, Heims, or Aspray—Macrae took to calling him by the familiar "Johnny" and so conveniently sidestepped the issue altogether). Cheers, Robert K S 21:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
You made this comment: "Watch the cheek, lad. :-)" which I found a bit odd. I compiled a comprehensive list from one of the two main sources, Mathematical Reviews of the American Mathematical Society (the other is Zentralblatt MATH), of all the lower case uses of von Neumann in titles of mathematical articles since 1940. I also pointed out that the two major ICM addresses from Fields medallists in the subject used this form. That was not an accident. Another mathematician has intervened to confirm what I said. I think you might have some misconceptions of how the mathematical research community functions; possibly this is why you dismissed mathscinet. This is not a biographical article on von Neumann. Some relevant historical details have in fact been omitted in the text: Jacques Dixmier in a published letter asked von Neumann's permission to introduce the terminology "algèbres de von Neumann" instead of rings of operators; von Neumann's positive reply is also documented (in a volume of selected correspondence published fairly recently by the AMS). Those actively interested in von Neumann algebras are not unacquainted with details of von Neumann's life; some of these have been handed down orally by older researchers in the subject who knew von Neumann from the Institute of Advanced Studies. Of course the saddest and most widely known story is about his gradual loss of language, with only his native hungarian remaining in the end. But of course, if you read further into the article, you'll see that von Neumann is not just important in the subject as a historical figure. His papers today are as alive as they were when he first wrote them and some of the directions suggested there are only now becoming better understood. Like his colleague Hermann Weyl, he is one of the inspirational figures of twentieth century mathematics. Mathsci 23:44, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Marseille Gallery

I see that you included a copy of the image "Marseille VP Hotel de Ville JD 11082007.jpg" in the en:Marseille gallery. Of course I like to see my images put to use, but was there a particular reason to upload a quality-reduced duplicate of that? I would like to know if there is something wrong with the original, I usually try very hard to upload high-quality images. Cheers, JDrewes 23:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello. Sometimes an image on the french or german wikipedia will not appear when it is referenced in an english article. This happened with some french images and with your image of the Hotel de Ville (which I was very happy to find!). In this case I then simply uploaded the image onto the english WP. If you know a way to avoid this, that would be extremely useful. I think if the images are on wikimedia commons, the problem might not occur. I was not aware that the quality had been altered because I made no modification during the transfer. If this occurred accidentally (i.e. a larger scale image was available which I didn't notice), please upgrade the image.
By the way, I have a german colleague in Marseille who said that he would be happy to take you out on his yacht to take pictures of Marseille from the sea. If you're interested, please reply here and I will email you his contact details. Regards, Mathsci 08:11, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
That sounds great! I'd be most willing to go sailing (please pass on my details, as found on

My images are all uploaded to wikimedia commons (the one you copied as well), just because it says "Bild:...." instead of "Image:....." doesn't mean it isn't. AFAIK, Image: and Bild: are freely interchangeable. Judging from the resolution of the copy you made, I believe you uploaded the image-page preview instead of the original image. I will replace the gallery entry with the original one, it should work out just fine. Maybe you added it too soon after I uploaded it - it can take a while for thumbnails to show (the system needs to create them first). I would suggest that you request the deletion of the duplicate, there is no reason for a shrunk copy to exist in commons when the original is already there as well. Cheers, JDrewes 11:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Re: Aix-en-Provence

I don't know what browser you are using. But your spacing solution does not work for major browsers including IE and Firefox. You added blank lines and makes the page look not good in my browser (remember that more spaces are as problematic as less spaces). If your solution does not work for my browsers (including IE and Firefox), and my solution does not work for your browser (what?), then whose solution is better? If you still insist on your solution, then do as you please. I am not interested in debating with you. Regarding the link to V'Hello, it's OK for you to change the description to English, but that link is an article, not a website. It's better to be a reference, not an external link. The proper external link for V'Hello is Again, if you don't like this idea, do as you please. --Neo-Jay 19:36, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I use firefox usually. The links for using bicycles in Aix are to the council pages, which presents the information clearly. You have given a site which is the equivalent of the site for buying a TGV ticket over the web, except it's not so well constructed. To find that the bicycles are run by V'Hello, I physically examined the stand opposite the Cours Gambetta post office. Could you have obtained this information yourself, without being in situ? If you wish to contribute to this article and are knowledgeable about Aix and the region, why not add the missing section on gastronomy? Are you in fact familiar with Aix? Mathsci 20:03, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I tested with another browser and your modification simply didn't work, so I went back to my solution. I'll try with another OS / different browser / different computer. If you are fluent in french, you could actually take part in the wikipedia project to transfer information from the french WP onto the english one. --Mathsci 20:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Regarding the link of , in my browsers, it is automatically redirected to , a table of contents for all the principal works of St. Jerome. The link I updated, , is from the same website and is the exact letter 123. I don't know why the link is not dead in your three browsers. And this should be a footnote, not just an external link. --Neo-Jay 20:54, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
OK, I see. Now I have no dispute with you on the spacing issue. Wish you find the good solution.--Neo-Jay 21:27, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
It looks good in my IE and Firefox if I ignore the blank lines above the section Economy. But, again, if you like, you can leave those blank lines there. I am fine with them.--Neo-Jay 21:59, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Great! Thank you. --Neo-Jay 22:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

careless editing

If you would know more about European ethnic groups, you were aware of some mistakes and incompleteness of the article. Chuvash people, as is stated, are not a people belonging to the Caucasian peoples: they live on the Volga river and are definitively European. There is a common perception of Europe's borders to the east: Ural mountains, Ural river down to the Caspian Sea and the Caucasus mountain range. Peoples to the north of this huge mountainous divide live therefore in Europe, peoples south of it actually in Asia. But there is a dispute about if still one should count some of these peoples European, as for their Christian religious and social tradition and their historical links to the Byzantine Empire. That you also delete the adding of the Sorbian people shows that you also do not know anything about the Slav group of peoples. The article was generally very interesting, but certain information, I counted important, was missing. Therefore I thought it would be appropriate to enhance this article. I think professional pure mathematicians like you should stay away from topics they know nothing about...

But you have simply copied and pasted the contents of the article peoples of the Caucasus, along with all its errors. The previous wikilink was much better. You have not contributed any special expertise: you've just made the article unreadable. --Mathsci 15:34, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
well, my contributions are redone. To inform you: I am not nationalistic. Now the text contains following errors: the Chuvash people still lives at the Volga and not in the Caucasus area; there is no Gaugaz people, they have to be spelled Gagauz. It is up to the great editors of this great project to produce great articles. I learned my lesson, thanks. Assary 05:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, they have been reverted, but not by me. Ask User:Dbachmann why certain peoples were removed (it might be unclear whether they can in fact be considered as European ethnic groups on the basis of language rather than geography). You can make whatever corrections you see fit. As you rightly say there is a typo in the wikilink to Gagauz which should be corrected; and the Chuvash should be moved up into Turkic peoples. Why not make these two well-observed changes with a short explanation in the summary? Why not try editing another WP article, like the one on the Chuvash, which has far more typos in it? A single purpose account always raises suspicions that an editor is trying to make a point. --Mathsci 08:11, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Europe discussion

I've moved our discussion to my Talk page. Hope this is OK with you. Mariya - x - Mariya Oktyabrskaya 16:20, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Fairy nuff :) --Mathsci 17:33, 15 October 2007 (UTC)