User talk:Seasalt

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Citing articles without ISBN numbers?[edit]

I saw your bot leave a note on a Royal Enfield isbn tag, and thought you might be able to help me with a citation query? User:Seasalt/Ducati Sources shows some primary sources (Ian Falloon magazine articles) used in Ducati Motor Holding, Ducati Quattrovalvole motorcycles and Ducati V-twin motorcycles. I cannot find any ISBN number in them. If these are even able to be used, what format would i properly cite them in? Just one example should suffice. --Seasalt 03:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't magazines use ISSNs? --Gwern (contribs) 06:16 18 November 2006 (GMT)
Gwern is correct ISSN XXXX-XXXX. You can either use {{tl:Cite journal}} or follow Wikipedia:Citing_sources (or, of course make it up as you go along). Rich Farmbrough, 10:18 18 November 2006 (GMT).

"References typically include: the name of the author, the title of the book or article, and the date of publication. Different professions, academic disciplines, and publishers have different conventions as to the order in which this information should be arranged, or whether additional information is required. Usually, the list is in alphabetical order by the author's surname. The name of the publisher and its city is optional. The ISBN of a book is optional. Journal articles should include volume number, issue number and page numbers, if available."

"Sometimes, different editions of the same book are published in the same year. This often happens after a copyright has expired, and different publishing companies publish different editions. In such cases, one must know the publisher to distinguish the different editions, or else the ISBN."

Wikipedia:Citing sources#Harvard referencing

Norton Commando[edit]

Hi - I hope this finds you well! Having appreciated your input before on motorcycle articles, can ask a favour for you check this article out for me, presently held on a personal stub page. Thank you! Rgds, - Ian 23:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I was checking it out when a speedy deletion notice came up. In the short time checking "phraseology" found only one phrase I would change: "Right from the beginning the Commando took part in racing events" to something like "From the very beginning of production the Norton Commando appeared in racing events." A string that long matching source text should be avoided (methinks). There are many ways to say the same thing. Comparing previous paras to sources gave rise to no crit. You seem to have the idea. Don't think I've ever seen a guide to reconstructing material, so its just my opinion. I'll read the rest when I see it up. (I've been dealing with crit for insufficient source quoting, which meant going over pages I'd done to cite sources more fully. Fair enough.)Seasalt 12:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you - I got a lot of good feedback, so put it into production - you can see it here, and I probably agree with your suggested changes. Sources, sources, sources - some people want more which gets you into CopyVio issues (there are only so many ways you can say the same thing); while others are happy with (almost) none. If you find a source, and its non-commercial, then simply - add it. I have never seen anyone criticised around here for too many sources - the wrong type, but never too many! Rgds, - Trident13 12:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Ted Mellors.[edit]

In respect to the European Championships for 1938 and 1939 the final standings where as follows;-


500cc Georg Meier (BMW)

350cc Ted Mellors (Velocette)

250cc Ewald Kluge (DKW)

Overall Champion Ewald Kluge.


500cc Dorini Serafini (Gilera)

350 cc Hermann Fleischmann (DKW)

250cc Ewald Kluge (DKW)

Overall Champion Ewald Kluge.

The rider gaining the most points in any class was the overall winner. (Guinnes Motorcycle Sport Fact Book by Ian Morrison page 151)

I will add more information about Henry George Tyrell Smith when I find anything. I thought that Jimmie Guthrie was more appropriate to have the Scotland flag. With riders nationalities it becomes more difficult post-war with more Australian and New Zealand riders. One pre-war rider to look-out for is the Australian A.E 'Digger' Simcock. (Agljones 12:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC))

I thought the older South African flag was more appropriate after finding it was used with the South African Formula 1 driver Jody Scheckter.(Agljones 10:14, 25 November 2006 (UTC))


Thanks for the note. I also updated Minsk, since that's in Belarus. The IMZ article states that they had a factory in Kharkov (Kharkiv, Ukraine), but doesn't say what happened to it in WWII. Michael Z. 2006-11-30 16:09 Z


Regarding references, there's some variation. See Wikipedia:Citing sources for all of the details. Some articles are fine with a couple of URLs in brackets or an external links section, others need a separate set of notes and references. When linking an article or page, I find it's intuitive for the reader if the linked text is the article's title. Michael Z. 2006-12-02 03:54 Z


Yes, I was the one that added the Armstrong CCM reference. I'm drawing a blank on information. I know they used a Rotax-engined/Armstrong chassis in the 250cc road racing Grand Prix class in the 1980s and that there was some connection to CCM. That's all I can find.Orsoni 11:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I've given up finding any information on Armstrong as I'm currently working in Saudi Arabia and have no research facilities other than the internet! I hope you can come up with a short article. Orsoni 15:46, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I just bought a copy fo The Illustrated Directory of Motorcycles and see there are two pages about Armstrong. You can view the book contents at by using the Search inside this book link just below the cover illustration you can look for Armstrong. Try this link. Cheers ww2censor 18:09, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Found this thread and thought you may like to have a look at the stub I've started Armstrong-CCM Motorcycles (I am trying to sort out all the British motorcycle manufacturer redlinks) Tony (talk) 19:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Being accused of vandalism[edit]

Well, you could take it as a personal attack, or lack of WP:AGF. Or, if you can manage it, leave it alone. As an uninvolved party assuming good faith, it is clear to me from that talk page that your intentions were honorable, and that the IP has overreacted a bit, and not quite managed to calm down. Bottom line, the article is fixed, no-one is likely to think the worse of you (apart from the anon, possibly, which you can't do much about), forget it and move on. Rich Farmbrough, 14:00 8 December 2006 (GMT).

Use of the word vandalism by the anonymous IP user was perhaps over the top in commenting on your edit to Cossack motorcycle. As Rich Farmbrough suggests, you should let it go. I have found that some anonymous IP users, either out of inexperience or ignorance, sometimes get very angry over small things that really don't matter too much and can easily be edited or discussed by reasonable people. You have done a lot of good work recently so just keep up the good work. Cheers ww2censor 14:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I thought only POV was approp. Detachment is not without difficulty. Seasalt 14:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Detachment is not without difficulty How true. ww2censor 14:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
I meant a personal attack on you. But I agree with your second statement, both in the context of writing articles and the social stuff that goes on on talk pages. Rich Farmbrough, 10:04 9 December 2006 (GMT).

Advertising on Leslie Graham?[edit]

A new user added this to the end of the Leslie Graham article.

<br><br><b> A new biography, 'Les Graham: A Life In Racing', written with the cooperation of the Graham family (December 2006) is available from</b>

I am not sure if it is appropriate or not, and the reasoning. What do you think? Seasalt 08:30, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Merry Christmas! A blanatant advert - placing it in bold was just silly. Rgds, - Trident13 10:38, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, it's advertising. Perhaps if you merely state that an official biography was written it could pass muster. But posting a link to the site and bolding it is just too far.. rgds Izaakb 15:51, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

An obscure motorcycle[edit]

A Wikipedia:WikiProject Motorcycling member put a Ducati Apollo image up on that article citing fair use. There were only ever two of these bikes made, both now in private collections, and unavailable for public viewing. No-one knew they still existed till one was shown briefly at the Ducati Desmosedici release. There's no free image of it, that I or he can find, but I assume that because no-one can absolutely guarantee that there will never be a free image, that all such images are doomed to deletion. Is that the case? Seasalt 07:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone tried contacting the owners of the two existing models for free-licensed pictures? If they say no, then there's no reasonable method of getting a free-licensed replacement, and the current fair-use image can be used. --Carnildo 00:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I found last night that there is only one still existing. The gold one in the image is lost, fate unknown. The surviving black and silver prototype was on display at Ducati's factory museum in Bologna, courtesy of its owner, Hiroaki Iwashita, from 2002 to 2003. It's sole public appearance in recent decades was the 2002 Goodwood Festival of Speed, while on loan to Ducati. "The only surviving Apollo was lent to the Ducati Museum between 2002 and 2003." top right picture caption, at;jsessionid=RPLU1TW0KENVUCRNCB2SFEYKFUIHUIV3 I have sent an email to the only Hiroaki Iwashita I could find, and await a response. (The owner is reclusive, so may not be him) I have also sent an email to Ducati. They are the copyright holders of the original gold bike promo image. Seasalt 01:34, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I have tried to get access to the remaining Apollo bike(S). I am unaware that the gold version has disappeared. I have requested from the Ducati Heritage group on several occasions for access to photograph the bike, but have been told repeatedly it was unavailable. In April of 2004, I was informed by Ducati that Iwashita "does not permit public access to the bike anymore due to a dispute regarding the handling of the bike by the shipper that returned it to him in Japan." For all reasonable intents and purposes, the bike no longer exists. Izaakb 14:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Matchless G80[edit]

Needs photos! Jeff dean 16:13, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Can only find a poor example of a Matchless 350 (G3L) in , and have none myself to upload. If you can find one, feel free to insert it. Seasalt 01:51, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I am going to the Las Vegas auction next week. I see there are several G80 variants for sale there. I will try and grab some photos for you.
Matchless at LV
Jeff dean 02:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Brackets around bio dates[edit]

Is that policy or preference? I am curious, not offended. Had just run peerreviewer script on it to correct such things. Seasalt 11:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

  • No problem at all. I don't know if there's anything specifically addressing whether bio dates should be incorporated into or separated from the main text, but the examples in the "Dates of birth and death" section of the Manual of Style follow the second format (the dates are separated from the text by parentheses) [1]. I hope that helps. Cheers, Black Falcon 20:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


I'm one of those purists who think the characters should be the way the product/company/person/whatever uses them everday. There is a redirect from Ohlins (without the umlauts) over the "O", so someone searching for it should find it. I have no desire to visit Australia due to your country's exceptionally large spider population (and I mean "large" as in the physical size of the spider). Sorry, but I can't do Huntsman spiders running across the kitchen floor. Though looking at the article, it says they're in New Zealand too. Guess I better take that off my list of places I want to visit. D'oh! ♫ Bitch and Complain Sooner ♫ 00:16, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I put a version without umlauts in the article to help with searching. That should work once the database gets updated. I know if I just type "ohlins" in the search box and hit "Go", it will jump straight to the article. How it will work after the search database gets updated is yet to be seen. ♫ Bitch and Complain Sooner ♫ 00:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

music-festival 'bot-restubbings[edit]

The purpose is to reduce the size of the Category:festival stubs; there's a discussion at WP:WSS/P. Note that this article was already categorised as a music festival, I only changed the stub type. Thanks for checking this one; perhaps I should have pre-screened for music-festivals-that-weren't-some-other-type-of-festival-too more thoroughly. If you see any others that are more something else than music festivals, please feel free to revert to the original tag. Alai 00:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Two "sibling" categories is fine; only in cases where the number is very large, or is a huge proportion of the total, would I worry about that sort of thing. Alai 01:24, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Cannonball Coleman[edit]

Cannonball Coleman competed at the 1930 Isle of Man TT Races and was no 15 in the Junior TT riding a Rudge and no 44 in the Senior TT riding a Royal Enfield. He retired on lap 1 of the Junior TT after crashing at the 33rd Milestone and retired on lap 3 of the Senior TT Race. (Isle of Man Weekly Times dated 7th June 1930)

R.W.Coleman suffered a broken jaw after crashing during practice for the 1949 Isle of Man TT near Guthrie's Memorial. (Isle of Man Weekly Times dated 11th June 1949) (Agljones 12:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC))

Val Page[edit]

Hi Seasalt, i'm the main author of the german Edward Turner articel. I would also like to write one about Val Page, but could not find any suitable information. Can you (or someone from the motorcycle project) help? -- Stahlkocher 12:52, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Just wrote Val Page article - it was really hard to research considering his legacy - can you expand at all? Thruxton (talk) 21:48, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

user jobstbrandt[edit]

i think it may just be an english language problem, i am not sure. i seriously doubt he is bothering to read the policy pages and i am offering to help him write a separate article -- and he keeps focusing on my opinion of his writing and my agreement of it. ((patience tester)).. the stuff he posted was interesting, but most of it wasn't appropriate inside the desmo article and certainly not if uncited -- he was posting stuff on how beehive-spring harmonics causes float (!) and not citing it. that's very interesting stuff and certainly some very-well-funded automotive house has done the research to support it, but i'm not the one to dig for it... urgh Izaakb 22:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I posted Jobstbrandt for RfC based on his behavior in various articles. Please review my report and post comments if you are inclined. Izaakb 17:11, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Motorcycle identification[edit]

Hi, I was Just uploading my family archive to Flickr, when Istumbled accros this photograph:


I was woundering if you could identify the model, or if you know who may be able to?

Then I woundered if the pic would be of any interest in the Royal Enfield article?

The photo is of my father and I believe was taken some time in the 1940's.

Thanks in advance.

Myredroom 17:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

1938 single port J model 500cc is my best guess. There was also a "twin port" J2 model, with two exhaust ports splitting from the single exhaust valve, giving a twin pipe exhaust. Mainly sidecar machine. The J model was also sold after ww2, but with telescopic forks. Your picture has the pre-war girder forks. Good for 75mph with stock low gearing. I am going on the straight back rear stand, as i cannot be entirely certain from engine appearance alone that it is not a 350 variant. Seasalt 10:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

R Les Graham[edit]

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Hello, this is a message from an automated bot. A tag has been placed on R Les Graham, by Orsoni (talk · contribs), another Wikipedia user, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. The tag claims that it should be speedily deleted because R Les Graham fits the criteria for speedy deletion for the following reason:

redundant page

To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait before possibly deleting R Les Graham, please affix the template {{hangon}} to the page, and put a note on its talk page. If the article has already been deleted, see the advice and instructions at WP:WMD. Please note that this bot is only informing you of the nomination for speedy deletion; it did not nominate R Les Graham itself. Feel free to leave a message on the bot operator's talk page if you have any questions about this or any problems with this bot. --Android Mouse Bot 2 21:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Meguro Z97[edit]

I'm interested in the history of Meguro, a major Japanese motorcycle manufacturer from 1937 until the early 1960's. Meguro's first model was a 500cc ohv single, said to be copied from a Motosacoche, and I am interested to find out which Motosacoche model was the basis. Meguro sold thousands of Z97's to the Japanese armed forces so I it was unlikely to have been a sporting model. As you have recently worked on Wikipedia's Motosacoche article, do you happen to know how I could find out?

I have found only two good photo's of a Z97. They are on the website of Wayland Mayo, who was a US Air Force photographer in the Korean War. When Mayo was stationed on Okinawa he acquired several motorcycles including a Z97 in civilian trim:

Mayo stripped his Z97 for racing:

Both images are near the bottom of their respective webpages. Mayo tells me that he inadvertently reversed one photo before uploading it to his website. Between them the two photo's show both sides of the same bike.

I've requested a translation of Wikipedia's two Japanese articles on Meguro:

It seems that after 1950 Meguro switched from copying Motosacoche to building a range of four-strokes, largely to their own design but with a cylinder head and barrel apparently influenced by AJS. From about 1960 the company built a copy of the 500cc A7, reportedly with BSA's permission. By then Meguro was in financial trouble and Kawasaki started to support the company. Kawasaki absorbed Meguro in about 1963. Meguro's A7 copy grew into the Kawasaki W1, W2, W3 and Commander, which are very rare here in Britain but I am told it are better known in Australia.

There is a list of Meguro models and dates on a Japanese website. I don't understand Japanese, but the dates, cubic capacities and photo's are clear enough:

I would be grateful if you or anyone you know were able help me with the history of Meguro, and particularly its Z97 model. Thank you. Motacilla (talk) 00:30, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The "1937 Meguro Z97, which utilized a 500cc rocker-valve motor that may have been based on the Motosacoche Jubilée Sport's 498cc OHV engine made in Switzerland. The Meguro Z97 was the first Japanese motorcycle that was built entirely in-house, from-the-ground-up." "In 1939, the Meguro Z97 was adopted as the official motorcycle of the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department, and was used until the start of WWII. In 1941 the Tokyo Meguro Works was converted into a munitions factory, and all motorcycle production was halted." See

Meguro & Motosacoche[edit]

Thank you for your message on 5th August. I would have replied sooner but I've just spent a month riding a Norton 4,300 miles around central Europe!

Your link to Kevin Hulsey's website saying Meguro based the Z97 engine on the 1931 Motosacoche 498cc Jubilée is helpful. I've compared timing side photo's of the MAG and Z97 engines. The parallel rocker tubes, rocker valve oil feed and timing cover layout all look similar. The locations of the oil pumps are different: maybe because Meguro chose a different type of oil pump. In my Meguro photo the rocker cover is lost in shade so I can't compare it with the MAG. The Z97 has twin exhausts, but the Jubilée picture is a profile so I can't see if the MAG engine had twin pipes. These are just the external similarities: I haven't yet found internal specifications for either the Z97 or the MAG.

I'll try e-mailing Kevin Hulsey and asking whence he got his information on the Meguro. If I find out any more I'll let you know! Motacilla (talk) 23:27, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I didn't need to e-mail Kevin Hulsey: I've now joined a German online forum about historic motorcycles and found the answer already there on a thread about MAG and Meguro! The Z97 engine is an exact copy of a MAG 497cc 1C9H11 engine, which entered production in 1931. The oil pump positions and the rocker covers are identical, and the MAG original does have twin exhaust ports. The picture that I was looking at before must have been of a slightly different MAG 497cc single. Motacilla (talk) 23:24, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Motorcycling in Wikipedia Signpost[edit]

The April 12 Wikipedia Signpost is going to feature the Motorcycling project. Would you like to add your answers to any or all of the questions over on the interview page? -- Brianhe (talk) 15:17, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Cossack motorcycle[edit]

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An article that you have been involved in editing, Cossack motorcycle, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cossack motorcycle. Thank you.

Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. Dbratland (talk) 02:46, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

You are now a Reviewer[edit]

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Hello. Your account has been granted the "reviewer" userright, allowing you to review other users' edits on certain flagged pages. Pending changes, also known as flagged protection, is currently undergoing a two-month trial scheduled to end 15 August 2010.

Reviewers can review edits made by users who are not autoconfirmed to articles placed under pending changes. Pending changes is applied to only a small number of articles, similarly to how semi-protection is applied but in a more controlled way for the trial. The list of articles with pending changes awaiting review is located at Special:OldReviewedPages.

When reviewing, edits should be accepted if they are not obvious vandalism or BLP violations, and not clearly problematic in light of the reason given for protection (see Wikipedia:Reviewing process). More detailed documentation and guidelines can be found here.

If you do not want this userright, you may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. Courcelles (talk) 18:32, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

'WikiProject: BMW Motorcycle' Proposal[edit]

Dear Seasalt,

Having seen your edits with regards to BMW motorcycles, I would like to make you aware that I am currently proposing this new WikiProject would have the primary aim of creating and developing a page for each model (both old and new) of BMW motorcycle produced in the company's history. This would enable a highly valuable resource to be for both enthusiasts and restorers such as myself to be created, where extensive information about specifications, development, modifications and the history behind could be found. Not only this, but it would encourage motorcycle enthusiasts, who would not normally have used Wikipedia, to both use its resources and to contribute to the project's pages, becoming part of the motorcycle fraternity which would be the driving force behind this community. Once this task has been completed of English Wikipedia, I, with help of other editors and members of the project, would like to then translate the pages into other languages (particularly German, in order to make the resources available in Germany, where many BMW enthusiasts and restorers are concentrated), and so contribute to the wider Wikipedia group. The WikiProject, would also contribute large numbers of pictures to Wikimedia, as part of its galleries.

In order to promote the group and encourage the growth of the articles in our scope, the WikiProject is not only being promoted to present editors who are currently active editing articles on BMW itself and motorcycles in general, but also notify groups such as the Vintage Motor Cycle Club and the BMW Club in the U.K., which would encourage members (20,000+) to contribute some of the extensive knowledge of the topic which is demonstrated by members of these clubs. Members of the WikiProject who are active in clubs outside of the U.K., would also be encouraged to promote the Project to their respective society, making the WikiProject multinational. Current, more experienced editors, would then help the 'new boys' to use Wikipedia and share their knowledge, which has often been built up during the course of a lifetime of passion for BMW motorcycles. This would enable us, together, to produce a resource which will help generations long into the future and help preserve and catalogue BMW's legacy in the motorcycle industry.

Currently, there are no such WikiProjects which would be dedicated solely to the BMW motorcycles (not even BMW itself) and the development of pages on each individual model, in opposed to the current situation where some models are briefly referred on a BMW related page. This WikiProject would allow this community of people who are highly knowledgeable about this specific topic to develop articles in extreme depth, something not possible with larger groups, which could then be published on the world wide web, available gratis, as with all Wikipedia articles, to the public.

If successful, the idea could serve as a blueprint and be replicated for other motorcycle manufacturers.

Please visit the project proposal page, in order to see more details of the project and to join. Please can any questions or replies to this be posted either on the discussion section of the proposal page, or I can be contacted directly on my talk page.

Many thanks and any help from fellow enthusiasts on this project would be greatly appreciated.

DAFMM (talk) 15:35, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Notice of move request[edit]

It has been proposed that Daimler 2.5 & 4.5 litre, to which you have contributed, be moved to "Daimler V8 engine". Your input into the discussion would be welcome. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 20:37, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Merge discussion for Ducati 800SS [edit]

Information.svg An article that you have been involved in editing, Ducati 800SS , has been proposed for a merge with another article. If you are interested in the merge discussion, please participate by going here, and adding your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 02:42, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Peace symbols[edit]

Thanks for your comment. What is the source for this photo? Pelarmian (talk) 14:46, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Initially I only had the rough version from a repository of digitised newspapers etc from Australia and having cleaned up the OCR for that article, copied it over to "Nimbin Hook Ups" - a discussion page for residents of Nimbin village. I was quite lucky in that one of the viewers had an original of the same photograph and they posted it, though the "peace symbols" are visible in both. Seasalt (talk) 08:34, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Many thanks for the link. Pelarmian (talk) 09:01, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open![edit]

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