User talk:Setanta747/Archive2

Kayleigh

Going back to how we first met (!) Kayleigh is much better now. Just one more citation to find. Good work! --kingboyk 01:11, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I just spent the last.. two hours(?) trying to find the info regarding the 96% stat, without success. I found the same info on a blog site.. but it appears to be the exact same wording, and I wouldn't use it as a source. Researched a bit of the census info, and just added more to the article. Apparently no records earlier than 1997 for Scotland and 2001 for England and Wales (the Northern Ireland records are pretty crap too!) I don't actually doubt the statistic tbh... but I'd love to see a list of popular names in the UK for the years 1985 to 1990 or so. I would have thought that the 1991 Census would have included the info.. but I can't find it.

Being a rather more serious editor for Wikipedia is hard work! One of the reasons I started to get more involved in it was because I thought it was a great idea - but that I knew Wiki had a marred reputation regarding accuracy.. which I wanted to help improve. I've been writing a book, on and off, and the conflicts that arise from other editors (such as the event which introduced us for example) is a great help and learning experience - the experience will definately help me when I eventually get around to working on the book again.

Next thing to do is to expand on the intro - the song itself!

Is that a convoluted way of saying thanks kingboyk, you're the greatest guy I ever met? :P (smirk). --kingboyk 02:37, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Och you're all right you know! lol (If I say any more than that, I'd be worried about being seen as a bit of an arse-licker!) --Mal 02:40, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I forgot to ask, what's the book about? --kingboyk 09:12, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Socio-political overview on Northern Ireland(!). Actually I haven't yet decided on its scope. It might end up being huge, and I don't mind that I suppose. For a long time I thought I had perhaps bitten off more than I could chew.. but I've had words of encouragement from people, including from some surprising quarters. --Mal 09:54, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

And what quarters would they be? Or are you not at liberty to say? :) --kingboyk 09:58, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

lol nah.. just nationalist and republican friends. I was always kinda worried that my book would end up de facto biased... and they would basically suggest "you are what you are - don't apologise for it", you know? --Mal 10:02, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Touchy!

[1]

"minor edit: album was released country-wide and not limited to the island of Britain" :) lol. I take it it was issued in Northern Ireland too? :) --kingboyk 07:29, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

More an accuracy thing tbh. I think an encyclopedia should be accurate and avoid confusion.. you and I both know that "Britain" is sometimes used to refer to the whole country - but non-British people don't always understand. Hell - some of our own lot don't always understand either! lol --Mal 07:34, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

England is part of Britain which is part of the UK. The Isle of Man is in the British Isles but not Britain, nor is it in the UK. But the Queen is head of state. It's enough to do anybody's head in, agreed! --kingboyk 07:38, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

... and that's the simple way of explaining it!! lol --Mal 07:42, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

And I'm not sure even that's right. Is IOM in the UK but outside the EU and self governing? Well, anyway, let's leave it there! :P (PS Have a look at my contribs and see the cleaning up you've made me do! :( ) --kingboyk 07:44, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Well if you hadn't done it, I'm sure I'd have got around to it meself! Had to do a few things there, but I'm back to the list if you're still around. --Mal 09:22, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Well I'm not dead yet, if that's what you mean! --kingboyk 09:42, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Well I was - figuratevely speaking... IE crashed on me in big style again. Its been doing quite a lot in the last month, apparently at random, and I can't seem to find any trojans or crap. --Mal 10:02, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Stiff Little Fingers

Hi, I believe you left an expansion tag on the SLF page? What is it in particular you think needs expanding on, and I'll give it a go. Cheers Jcuk 01:29, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I can't remember exactly what I had in mind when I added the tag. Looking at it now though, I think it need an expansion of the introduction for definate (this can be a brief summary of the other subsections of the article, if I understand the Manual of Style correctly), an infobox as with other artists/groups, and a new subsection on what they're currently doing (both individually and as a group). I think the sections need re-ordering and maybe sub'ed themselves - the descriptions of the albums put under a subsection maybe. These are just suggestions of course! I'd have a look at some of the good articles like The Beatles maybe and try to keep roughly consistant with it. Hope my suggestions are of help anyway, and have fun editing it. :) --Mal 01:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Beatles Red Links

Hi Mal, well, I think the redlink listing was worth doing and is worth continuing. I've followed along behind you and delinked a lot of crud and fixed a few links by way of creating redirects, but so far we've found at least 4 serious ommissions, which I've listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject_The_Beatles#Missing_Articles. They are: A World Without Love, Mark Lewisohn, Liverpool College of Art, and Ken Townshend. --kingboyk 05:30, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad its been useful - that was my main hope and purpose. Sorry I left it mid-way - I've been getting on with a couple of other projects. I'll probably finish of the rest pretty soon though.. or make a start to the second half anyway. --Mal 09:40, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't mean to whinge - actually I do, big style! :P - but:

"Boys(song) (note the lack of space before the ("

That really is a case of "so fix it"! It probably took as much effort for you to type out the above than it would have to fix the link! --kingboyk 12:06, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't bother changing much, if anything, when I was listing the redlinks. When I wrote that, I was in a hurry.. the point of writing is was that I didn't know if there was any disambig prob. lol anyway... fixed now is it? --Mal 12:35, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Yep, fixed - kind of. The link goes blue when spelt correctly, but points to a dab page. The dab page points to an article about the album Please Please Me. I'll sort it out in a moment. --kingboyk 12:38, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Cheers Steve - I thought I'd noticed some problem in the popup, which is why I didn't just go to the article and put a space in. --Mal 12:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

It would have been better to at least fix the typo (for the sake of readers), even if it meant dropping me a note saying "oi, go fix this dab problem!" :) but never mind. I don't hold grudges for long, a couple of years and I'll have forgotten about it :P (kidding) --kingboyk 12:58, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject The Beatles/Red links, so you can start firing again now. --kingboyk 14:30, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Template:User United Kingdom

What's the story there mate? And if there's a disagreement about content, wouldn't it make sense for the complaining user to just create a new version containing the text they want? --kingboyk 09:10, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

That's what I'd have thought tbh. The problem arises I think from two things: ownership of the name and categorisation. The Userbox is in the Locations/UK cat, so I'd have thought it was logical to keep the text as "lives in" and the cat as "Wikipedians in the UK". Another userbox for "user comes from" for those who have since relocated seems to be logical. I don't know though.. we seemed to reach consensus in discussion, and then some other person comes out of the woodwork and decides that our logic doesn't suit them.. instead of simply creating a new userbox! What do you think (other than that maybe too much time is wasted on bloody userboxes!! lol)? --Mal 09:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, the last bit rings most true. But, a forked template for the dissenter I'd have thought! --kingboyk 09:33, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Just had a thought. He could subst the version he likes. Then it wouldn't matter what changes get made to the master template. Note: You're at 2RR, so should only revert once more at most today. --kingboyk 09:48, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I know. I'm hoping someone else will revert the next time he does it. Feel free to come in on the discussion about it to help perhaps make sense of the problem or suggest a compromise. --Mal 09:51, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Nah you're alright. I got better ways to waste my time than over userboxes! --kingboyk 09:57, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

And yet here you are.. discussing it with me! ;) :P --Mal 10:02, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

If you check the history of the template, the text read This user comes from The United Kingdom or slight variants thereof from its inception on 22 Dec 2005 right up to 2 March, then someone changed it. People put these boxes on their page because of the text, not because of the categorisation it may bring with it. And once the text has been set in stone for months like that, you can't change it. So if you don't like the original text of the box, my answer would be: wouldn't it make sense for the complaining user to just create a new version containing the text they want? — SteveRwanda 10:16, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Run a straw poll on the talk page. Dissenters have to fork. Simple. Templates can change, if you don't want change just substitute rather than transclude. I'm saying no more. --kingboyk 10:21, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

No, a straw poll is not appropriate here, because frankly not enough people would be interested to vote, and most of the users who have this template on their page, who are directly affected by the outcome, probably wouldn't be aware of the vote anyway. See WIN#Wikipedia is not a democracy. Comes from has clear precendence here, so it's incumbent on those who want to use lives in do fork if they so desire. — SteveRwanda 10:27, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

How do you use the subst string in this case anyway? Do you just subst it, then save it, then edit the text that it brings in? Does that automatically add you to the categories included in the template too? --Mal 11:05, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Yep. And you can add and remove categories as you see fit of course. --kingboyk 11:08, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Snow Patrol

WP:NOT a link repository. Only the most important and relevant links should be included. Johnleemk | Talk 15:35, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, no problem then. You should just remove the fansite link, then. :) Johnleemk | Talk 16:49, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Hello

Fellow Wikipedian, I was browing through the recent changes page and found Orr (surname). I was very impressed and would like to Thank you for making such a good article all by yourself. Tutmosis 22:37, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Orr (surname)

Please transfer the listing of individual Orrs to Orr (disambiguation), a page specially created to list all such people. It would make sense to stick the article about the history of the name/clan to that. You can reply to this msg on my talk page. the.crazy.russian (T) (C) (E) 22:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Awesome. Here are the reasons:

1. McCarthy is a disambig itself (tag's on the bottom)
2. Nothing but people is named McCarthy.[2] Orr, on the other hand, is a city in MN, a US gov't agency and a fictional character, and potentially other things.
3. McCarthy article is very little about the origins of the name, unlike the Orr, which is very much.
4. Finally, consider: if 2 people are looking for, say, Orr, MN, and Bobby Orr, and both type in "Orr", you'd want them to go to one page automaticly that would list both, b/c "Orr" is a plausible search for both. Not people separate, non-people separate.

Makes sense? the.crazy.russian (T) (C) (E) 22:50, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Consider taking the "orrvilles" out altogether - nobody would search "Orr" when trying to find "Orrville" the.crazy.russian (T) (C) (E) 22:52, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, looking that the McCarthy page, it lists places[3] and people. Perhaps a different suggestion would be to rename the Orr (surname) to Orr after that article has been renamed (as was your proposal), and the article reworded afterwards to reflect this, and a disambig tag added. In that way, the Orr page would become very much like the McCarthy page. The McCarthy page does have a history, albeit a short one. I'd be willing to keep an eye out and make the appropriate changes when they need made. Your thoughts? --Mal 23:00, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

The towns named Orrville, as far as I understand, were named after people called Orr. In that sense they surely belong very much in the article I created? --Mal 23:02, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

One geo location, Population 42. :) I am not the boss of you and you don't need to seek my approval. I say history of the group in one place, specimens in the disambig, like the rest of WP. the.crazy.russian (T) (C) (E) 23:12, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Forget I said anything :) an admin removed all people named Orr from the disambig page. go figure. the.crazy.russian (T) (C) (E) 01:52, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

If after a couple of days there's no objections to the page moved proposed at Talk:Orr, I suggest you be bold and do it, then check the "what links here" and disambiguate any incoming links. If you need admin assistance to delete a redirect or perform the page move let me know. (Although, my most recent page move overwrote the redirect automatically - presumably a new Mediawiki feature but I don't know if it works for admins only. Or if I imagined it :)) --kingboyk 07:02, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Yup - I think tCR has withdrawn his proposal basically, and I think what the admin had done to the disambig page made more sense to me. I'll probably do that (Orr --> Orr (Catch-22)) in a couple of days if I don't see anything in objection. --Mal 12:51, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd go ahead and move it if I were you. Can't see how the manouvere could be controversial - the incumbent article is in bad shape and not what one would necessarily expect to find in the slot. Indeed, there's a good case for saying your Orr surname article should have the slot, but if you're happy for Orr to be a dab page go ahead. Don't forget to disambiguate the incoming links. --kingboyk 12:56, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Wayland Young

Re: your edit [4]: Indeed, Wayland Young is a British politician, and 2nd Baron Kennet. He is also the author of Eros Denied, so this does not call for a disambiguation. I have reverted. - Jmabel | Talk 04:54, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

From what I remember, I had done a quick Google and the results hadn't connected the two with the one person. My apologies for the inconvenience. --Mal 07:57, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

No big deal. For what it's worth, our article Wayland Young mentions his authorship of this book. The book, by the way, contains massive information about the history of pornography and erotica, spanning several millennia, not much of which we have articles about (except, notably, de Sade); almost everybody in Wikipedia who writes about pornography seems to want to write about the latest fetish model -- who probably already has a web site of her own, anyway, easily found on Google, and probably of more interest to those who would care about her than an encyclopedia article. Oh, well. I guess it's not surprising that it is an area where our articles tend toward the superficial. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:00, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Great Work

I think it has already been mentioned here, but just wanted to say great work on the Northern Ireland Portal and also the Northern Irish Wikipedians Noticeboard, keep it up! - TheKeith 17:44, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks mate. I'm going to change the featured article from Van Morrison soon though, because it was pointed out to me that both the featured bio and the featured article are both biographies. I'm going to go with the suggestion that someone gave me, and put the Giant's Causeway in instead of Van the Man. I might create a log page for articles that have been featured too, so that we can cycle through as many different articles as possible. Any article put in there though, would have to be up to scratch of course. Actually, I might do a featured articles candidates page, so we can kinda vote different ones in, and that might create a bit of a drive to improve the articles.

Another thing I thought of doing was to create a template inviting people to get involved, which we can place on users' talk pages. I'm nicking the idea from the Beatles Project. I think we should start with anyone who's listed in the Northern Irish categories. Let me know your thoughts. --Mal 13:56, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Cough. Someone. Cough. --kingboyk 14:05, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

lol what are you getting at ya eejit? --Mal 14:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

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School uniforms

Sorry it's taken so long to reply. I thoroughly agree with you, and have added a note to the talk page. I appreciate that in your part of the world, religion is a sensitive issue. - Taxwoman 14:27, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

User page

Have you seen the newly added mess on my talk page? :) (rolls eyes). Looks like we've been working on similar sub-pages, I've had a look at your list, if you'd care to check out mine my new articles are User:Kingboyk/Articles and User:Kingboyk/Music. --kingboyk 14:40, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Well they say that great minds think alike (and fools seldom differ!) lol

Your latest message on your talk page by Xljesus? Oh boy! lol Still .. perhaps another editor who will shortly become a friend and ally. ;) I'll check out your list and see if there's anything I might be able to help with. In the mean time, I'll start catching up with my watchlist and then start adding more redlinks to the Beatles Proj. --Mal 05:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Aye but I've trimmed it somewhat since then, so if you only looked today you saw a mere half of it. He'd pasted in an entire wiki article to make some point or other, lol :) --kingboyk 08:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

lol yeah - that's actually what prompted the comment "oh boy!", cos I'd noticed you'd trimmed a whole article from your talk page! I can imagine your reaction to seeing that! --Mal 08:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

User:Fenian Swine

So far so good, almost finished my first year, woo hoo! All my computing labs are in South, my lectures are all in Central, got myself added thanks. To be honest The Geography isn't that bad, 1000 word essay about the Political and Religious Segregation in Belfast, sounds worse than it really is. - TheKeith 15:24, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Man, have you seen this person's userpage? User:Fenian Swine

I'm lodging a complaint. --Mal 12:32, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi, yes hmmm, lol, I really don't see much point, some people are always going to talk the freedom of their user page too far. It's best to just let them live in their little fantasy world, while the rest of us get on with writing the encyclopedia. If you get anywhere with the complaint give me a shout. - theKeith 17:35, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Hey mate, you did a bit of a hit and run on Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Offensive_user_page. I've been left to explain why the content is offensive, when I in fact wanted nothing to do it with in the first place! It might help if you as an Irishman popped back to explain why it is offensive and/or divisive. As Guy rightly anticipated, the opinion of a "vile Englander" (MY words, and I jest) doesn't seem to count for much :) --kingboyk 10:58, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

My apologies that you felt it necessary to get involved. I purposely left the usernames of the "two admins" out though, so as to preserve anonymity. Haven't read all of the discussion yet. --Mal 17:08, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

No worries! Sorry for ranting :P --kingboyk 17:21, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Beatles Project Heads Up

Hi. A heads up. We've had a post on the talk page from a newbie who really wants to help but doesn't know where to start. S/he will need some handholding. Add that to a previous enquiry about how to help, and the general lack of edits from people besides us 3, and it's clearly time to look at offering out some tasks and maybe dropping a newsletter out to people. The newbie's post also needs a reply - I'm too tired to answer the post at the moment, so if you happen to be online and can deal it with that would be great. If not, let's talk on the project page tommorow or when you're next free. --kingboyk 21:19, 19 March 2006 (UTC) (in autopilot mode).

Bungalow Bill

Hi. Would you please look at User_talk:Kingboyk#Bungalow_Bill and the external link provided? Are you familiar with "Bungalow Bill" as Brit slang for "dimwit"? It may just be that it's eluded me or is before my time, but given that I've never heard of it and that the source is an American site I wonder. --kingboyk 10:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard of that before, no. Maybe the guy is confusing it with Bungling Bill or something? I found this on a website:

Written by John, this song is about a young American college student named Richard A. Cooke III, who was the son of a lady named Nancy, who was at the retreat in India at the same time as The Beatles. Richard really did go on a tiger hunt with his mother, and he did shoot and kill a tiger, and this song mocks that event.[5]

Looking at the actual wiki entry, it seems I've found a citation for the etymology of the song. I'd take out the reference to "British slang" though. --Mal 10:31, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

No way Jose! That's probably where the reference came from in the first place. I'm wanting a quote from Lennon, or something from a book or a serious music magazine (Mojo, Q, Rolling Stone). I'll move this to my talk page, for threading. --kingboyk 10:52, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Yup - that's what I meant to say. Unless it can be found somewhere else, keep the fact tag on. But remove the "british slang" reference at least. --Mal 10:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Ulster Fry

Can I ask why you keep removing black and white pudding from the list of other common additions to the Ulster Fry? They are common additions to it and many places will serve it with it as an option. Ben W Bell 11:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

They are not common ingredients to an Ulster Fry. I believe you are confusing it with an Irish Breakfast, which does contain either or both. I changed the information in the article as a compromise. --Mal 11:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

But many cafes and the likes in Belfast and, in my experience, in and around County Down do serve the puddings as a part of an Ulster Fry. It is from my experiences very common as I often have to leave them at the side of my plate (as I like neither of them). In my experience it is much more common than wheaten bread (relatively common) or baked beans (I think I've only seen this once). Ben W Bell 12:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I have to say that in my 35 or so years of living in various places around Northern Ireland, I've never seen an Ulster Fry in a café that included white or black pudding. I'm not saying you've never seen it, but I've lived in both Down and Belfast for many years, and I order the Ulster Fry a lot as its THE best hangover cure known to man! I've seen it with beans too, though I wouldn't call that a traditional part of the dish. Wheaten bread is pretty common, and I'd include that because its a dish that's unique in that it has all that fried bread in it. --Mal 12:10, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Well we'll agree to disagree on this one. I still like mine with pancakes, don't like wheaten. Ben W Bell 12:41, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm going to go on a fact-finding mission in Belfast then! lol Seriously - I'll report back to you on it. I have to say though, that even if I find any café that offers the puddings as part of the Ulster Fry, I would still maintain that the resultant meal would be more of a blend of the Ulster Fry and the Irish Breakfast. My dad used to make it for us with all the fried breads AND pancakes! The Sunblest or Ormo pancakes. Anyway - you might be interested to know that I've created (only a start) two more food articles: Flies graveyard and Pastie. --Mal 13:46, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Pasty. And it's from Cornwall! You guys must have pinched the idea :P --kingboyk 14:31, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Its not the same thing, and if you come over here I'd be happy to buy you a pastie so you can judge it for yourself! --Mal 14:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Pasties!!!!!!!!!!!!! How I miss pasties. In England they have no idea what they are. Ben W Bell 14:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

They don't, do they? lol Yet they love them. Once bitten, forever smitten! ;) --Mal 14:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

No. They think they are pastys and are those cornish things, not our rounds battered and deep fried. I keep bringing ones back from Northern Ireland when I visit and freezing them for later use. Wonderful invention, I miss them more than an Ulster Fry (for which I can now get ingredients over here). Now if only we can have steakettes. Ben W Bell 14:38, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Lovely. Lar: 1 beer. Mal: 1 pastie. Any more offers? :) Actually, ya know, I've never been to your fair isle so I may well take you up on the offer one day (by which time you will have moved to America, lol). --kingboyk 14:53, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Heh! Well an invite to the Good Ole US of A then.

... and a batch of frozen pasties on their way to Ben! --Mal 14:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Frivolity aside, I think pastie should have a dab template on it, because the English one is often spelt that way too. {{Otheruses4}} should do the trick. Oh and a {{Reqphoto}} on the talk page if you don't have a picture. --kingboyk 15:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah - I actually edited the redirect page for Pasty to create the article. I assume the dab should go on the Pastie article because Pasty would be the more common query? Another thing about it is that some people (mis?)spell pastie as pasty, though the most frequent usage, by far, of the word I've seen in NI is the article name's version. I'm not sure there is an 'official' spelling for the word tbh! In the meantime, I'll add those tags, cheers. --Mal 15:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

If people looking for the NI pastie might type in Pasty you can put a dab on that page too. If the NI version is never spelt "Pasty" and you think it's an unlikely typo, then don't. It's entirely a judgement call. Do what you think best for navigation. --kingboyk 15:43, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Olympics

Hi Mal, have you seen this?

Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 March 20#Category:Great Britain at the Olympics to Category:United Kingdom at the Olympics

Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 09:38, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up Stu. I've added my vote and I think I'll add anote to the NI Notice board too. --Mal 17:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Looking at that debate, I see usage of the term Islands of the North Atlantic as though it's official, attached to some other holier than thou comments. What do you think of said term? Political correctness gone mad, I think. It's such a clinical term, and it's not even close to being correct, since there are many other islands in the North Atlantic which aren't in this particular grouping. It also presupposes that the "British" in British Isles has political meaning which, the way I see it, it doesn't - I see it as meaning the group of islands of which fr:Grande Bretagne (vs fr:Bretagne) is the largest. (Apropos of nothing, feel free to ignore :)) --kingboyk 18:42, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes I think its a case of over-sensitivity too. And it is wildly inaccurate. I noticed one edit to an article (I forget what article) that had been changed from British Isles to this IONA thing, which I'd never previously been aware of, and a subsequent edit changing it back. The irony is that the term British is derived from the oldest known reference to the people of these islands as a collective - a time before the vile Anglo-Saxons (tongue firmly in cheek here btw!) came to be here. So, not only is it inaccurate - its also historical revisionism.

NTL is my service provider, and they had a major problem yesterday which affected users nationwide apparently. Oddly, I think it only affected web browsing. They seem to have it sorted anyway. So I've got about two days worth of my watchlist to catch up on!! --Mal 07:19, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

IP Blocking

Just discovered the following policy proposal and debate, which may well interest you - Wikipedia:Blocking policy proposal. --kingboyk 13:57, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Cheers mate. I added my vote. --Mal 17:02, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I actually haven't voted yet. The main proposal seems great, but there's so many 'ifs' and 'buts' I didn't know where to start! :) --kingboyk 17:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Well I was slightly torn between the first two proposals. I was going to plump for the first one because I thought it might be a good enough start. Then I got to thinking that anyone who really, genuinely wanted to contribute (to) an article, wouldn't mind going through a couple of minor hoops. I read something about the whole of Malta (ASDL) being blocked.. but I think there should be a log kept of possible exceptions etc... or the procedure should be coded to account for masked IPs or something. --Mal 17:24, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I went for the second in the end also. I don't like those things where u have to type in a code, but the first proposal wouldn't prevent a vandal from creating account after account, right? --kingboyk 18:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

They annoy me sometimes because they are often too mangled to read, but I don't mind them too much. I wasn't even aware that it had a name.. capt..something?.. until I noticed it here. Still - that's one of the reasons we're editors, yeah - to learn new things! :) --Mal 13:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

British Isles

Hey Mal, You seem to be very good at bringing a level head to these things: "The British Isles is a geographical and ecological term for the archipelago of islands off the northwest coast of Europe, including Great Britain (containing England, Scotland, Wales), and Ireland (containing Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland), the Isle of Man, and several thousand smaller adjacent islands.". OK, good enough start (although I think the contents of the parentheses could go from the introduction, as it's about islands not countries). The problem, though, is that the article has an NPOV tag on it. It's really quite shameful if we can't get a neutral article to document the islands we live in! I understand that the term itself might not be neutral to some, but the article should be neutral and TBH I don't see too much wrong with it. Perhaps you'd take a look, you seem to be better at these things than me.

"One area of controversy..." and some incoherent ramblings should not be in the overview. The overview should be what is the British Isles and where are they. Controversy (representing both angles) should be in a section. I think with that and a few tweaks it could easily be made neutral but I'm a bit nervous of POV warriors biting me on the arse. What say you? --kingboyk 13:12, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you. I'm trying to write an article to replace Northern Ireland that excludes a LOT of the references to the Troubles for similar reasons. If people want to know about the Troubles, there are plenty of articles about them (in fact I'm going to surround The Troubles here in squares to see if it turns blue). There is plenty more to say about NI than rambling on and on about that crap tbh. In my experience, most people here whether they be nationalist or unionist, don't particularly care too much about the 'controversy'. Its the usual vocal, but very much minority people that usually find offence, and its a fairly recent phenomenon. The problem with me doing something about it is that I would be seen to be biased, being from Northern Ireland etc. To be perfectly honest, while I do try to be fair, balanced and all-inclusive on this kind of thing, I do have a political opinion.. though I don't consider the ancient name of the British Isles to be political in any way. I might have a crack at it though, and see what reaction my edits get.

Maybe someone should start an article on 'politically correct' renaming of objects, geography and names concerning the ******* Isles! --Mal 13:41, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

We could just replace it with a redirect to Islands of the North Atlantic :) --kingboyk 13:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah - and deny the existance of the British Isles! --Mal 13:47, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I've had a dabble at it, mainly just shifting stuff around so that incoherent ramblings aren't in the intro, and that the article stays on focus as discussing this archipelogo. If you want to edit more finely please step in, that's if POV warriors haven't torn my efforts (and me) to shreds by then :) --kingboyk 15:28, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi/Loose ends

Hi Mal. How are you? A few loose ends for you: Please don't forget to finish off the Beatles redlinks list. There's no rush of course, so even if it's at the bottom of your todo list that's OK. I think the scheme we had where the two of us worked together, me following behind with my usual critical eye was quite good, don't you? :) I fixed The KLF article regarding digital samplers per your advice. The KLF used an Akai, and it those which were both cheap and new at the time. Finally, your message on the admins board. It seems that nobody wants to do anything about it. I don't know what else is open to you, if you wish to take it further, besides the dispute resolution process and specifically WP:RFC. Hope that helps. --kingboyk 16:12, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Cool - I'll have another look at The KLF then. The message on the Admin board.. about 'Fenian Swine'? I just posted another reply on it, and I'm thinking of adding it to the news or announcements sections of the UK Wikis', NI Wikis' and Irish Wikis' noticeboards. I might ask a few opinions too. I usually don't canvas for help in votes, but it seems that everyone else does (I notice the same faces appearing on consensus for certain issues).

I'm going to start (soon-ish) compiling a list of the Northern Ireland categories to list for move (on the AfD page?) to "Northern Irish". Virtually every country category I see lists as "English", "Candian" etc .. in that format. I wouldn't mind your support on that if you feel my logic is correct.

As for the Beatles - yeah I plan to get back with the project soon. I've been tied up with Real Life™ and when I have been here, I got side-tracked with the Miss United Kingdom and Miss Northern Ireland articles.. which is strange, cos I'm not particularly into beauty pageants! Just finishing off for now though, and I'll probably be back on later. Cheers for the update. --Mal 18:36, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Devin79 and PIRA page

This shit head is at it again. Do you want to give me a hand reverting his changes? Also I think we should try to get him banned as he has no respect for hoesty or the truth. Jdorney 12:30, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Hey JD. I'm not sure banning him would be the answer.. yet. I think we should appeal to administration to issue a stern warning first. I'm not sure about the procedure though, but I'd be happy to propose something. Perhaps, given my personal political viewpoint, any action might be better coming from you - you can show that you have no political vendetta or 'sectarian' bias against the guy. Let me know what you think. PS. If you do appeal for a ban on him though, I will support it. --Mal 12:36, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I had a quick look at the PIRA article, and it seems you may have fixed all the POV edits. Can you clarify this? Also, do you think it would be prudent to include an announcement on both the Northern Irish Wikipedians' notice board and the Irish Wikipedians' notice board? --Mal 12:47, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I reverted his changes, th problem is, as you know, that I can only revert it so many times before being blocked myself. I don't feel there's a sectarian issue here, as the version that we are promoting could not be construed as sectarain or biased. His on the other hand... Even though I'm not from the unionist community I thought that his references to the UDR as a "protestant militia" and the RUC as the "protestant dominated police force" were highly offensive as the implication was that it was therefore ok to kill them. i don't know how the disciplinary system works here, but User:Jtdrl seems to have some knowledge of it. I suggest we do something about it if he keeps this up. Jdorney 12:36, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there's no sectarian issue (although obviously the person we're talking about here has what could be described as a sectarian vendetta regarding the article). But I was suggesting that it might be seen that myself, being nominally unionist, making a proposal that he be banned, could be seen as having sectarian motivation. However, if I notice he's been adding POV edits to the article again, I will nominate him on the administrators' notice board or some such, and I'll let you know once I've done so. Likewise, if you decide to nominate him, let me know. --Mal 22:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Sarcasm

Have a look at this highly amusing failure to grasp British sarcasm WP:ANI#the_vandalstrator_.2F_adminivandal_User:Postdlf. Alas I might yet get an earbashing for feeding the trolls but I didn't think he'd take it seriously. I mean, look at my link to the BJAODN page! :) --kingboyk 18:27, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Just one question: What is a "brutha noe"? --Mal 20:46, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

How should I know? I'm a whiteboy from a deadend farming village! :) --kingboyk 21:09, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

lol As Ash from the Nostromo said: "You have my sympathies." --Mal 21:47, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Re: Ulster

You might want to add your comments that you left on my talk page to the Talk:Ulster (disambiguation) page. It has been reverted again. Jonto 01:06, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

I reverted it. Seems to me that the use of the term "Ulster" to describe Northern Ireland is a fact... and used not only by Northern Irish people.. and not only therefore by unionists, Protestants and/or Loyalists. I'll add this and my other comment to the talk page if its reverted again.

By the way - there's a CfD proposal on the WP:CFD page regarding a category for Northern Irish people. This might have implications for all the other categories that deal with Northern Irish people, places and things. I put an announcement in the Wikipedia:Northern Irish Wikipedians' notice board about it. --Mal 01:11, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Yep, "Ulster", like "Ireland", really is a pretty ambiguous term. It can have 2 main modern definitions - either the 6 or 9 depending on context. Therefore, the usage of the term to describe NI is definitely fact as you say. IMO Ulster is more of a cultural region with no strictly defined borders (just as the other Provinces of Ireland were throughout history). Looking through some of the past talk pages I note that there has been some discussion on this before:

Talk:Ireland/Archive01#The_meaning_of_.22Ulster.22

Talk:Ireland/Archive02#Definition_of_Ulster

Talk:Ireland/Archive02#.22Provinces.22

Talk:Northern_Ireland/Archive01#Province

Unfortunately, it seems that the debate seems to have mainly involved a majority from the Republic of Ireland and the non-neutral PoV, that the only valid or "correct" form of the term "Ulster" involves 9 counties, and seems to have propagated that PoV throughout many wikipedia pages.

Perhaps some extra notes are required on the Ulster page to sort his out, though I don't disagree with the focus on that article remaining on 9 counties - if someone wants to refer to the 6 counties then they can link to Northern Ireland. Perhaps information (such as a diagram) on Ulster's changing boundaries as marked on maps throughout history is required, information on Ulster as a cultural region and some info about the Ulster-Scot people from Ulster Scots article, and where they settled, and perhaps a mention of the areas (a diagram?) in Ulster where Ulster Scots Dialect is also spoken is needed (this would mainly refer to NI and some parts of Donegal).

Jonto 02:34, 2 April 2006 (UTC) PS - added my comments to the CfD.

Yup - my own view on the subject is that Ulster most definately refers to the nine counties. But, throughout history, Ulster has been variously roughly half of Ireland and, at its smallest extent, only basically the counties of Antrim, Down and part of Louth.

The interesting thing is that the modern provincial boundaries were set up by a British monarch. I agree that a diagram might be useful for people who have limited understanding. Everyone here is used to the terminologies, and we know exactly what we mean when we refer to various regional descriptions in any given context. We even understand the POV someone subtley or not-so-subtley (consciously or unconsciously) might bring across in conversation. We accept it and deal with it by ignoring it, or confronting it depending on the circumstance and tone of voice. But there is no tone of voice in text-only environments. Another thing this can lead to is having to explain practical facts that you are used to, to people that have nil or limited understanding of. Sometimes this isn't easy, even for people with a great command of language.

How this relates to the nominclature for Ulster is that, while it should certainly be noted that the 'official' term describes nine counties, it doesn't necessarily follow that it is in error to describe the six counties as "Ulster". Many people do it, as I've said. I actually don't, though I'm proud of being an Ulsterman, and will happily tell people that.

Personally, I think the three other counties should be merged into Connaught and Leinster as the case may be! --Mal 22:55, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Image Tagging Image:Jim Rodgers.jpg

This media may be deleted.

Thanks for uploading Image:Jim Rodgers.jpg. I notice the 'image' page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this media yourself then there needs to be an argument why we have the right to use the media on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the media yourself then it needs to be specified where it was found, i.e., in most cases link to the website where it was taken from, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the media also doesn't have a copyright tag then one should be added. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the {{GFDL-self}} tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media qualifies as fair use, consider reading fair use, and then use a tag such as {{Non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other media, consider checking that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Image legality questions page. Thank you. CLW 14:51, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your concern.

1. This image was deleted before.
2. The source is Wiki.
3. I already asked about the image at the Image legality questions page, and they were, frankly, crap.
4. As a result, I had a look at the policy.
5. Policy states that GFDL extends to all Wiki groups.
6. I have therefore removed the incorrect tag from the image page.
7. Feel free to do the same research I had to do.

--Mal 18:49, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

When details are requested of which wiki website this image was taken from, answering "a WIKI website" is silliness. Further, removing the no source tag is then vandalism. Please supply details of which website the image was taken from so that the free documentation licence can be verified. Thank you. CLW 18:16, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry - your previous message, and question on the relevant article seemed equally silly. It felt like you were accusing me of lying. Do you not trust your fellow editors acting in good faith? The image is from a Wiki sister site, as I implied. I retrieved the image from my hard drive (a folder I keep on my desktop especially for Wikipedia), and I've forgotten the URL of the particular Wiki site I got the original from. The information may well be in the history of the page from when it was deleted before (I don't know how it works but, as an admin, perhaps you can retrieve that info).

I supplied the details before, and I supplied what details I could remember when I re-created the image. Therefore it was not vandalism when I removed the tag, as I had researched its licencing status and the Wiki policy concerning it.

As I said - feel free to browse Wiki sites to find it. Try the NI politics one or the Wiki Commons one I suppose. After that, you can remove the tag you added. If you've not done so within the next 48 hours or so, I will remove the tag myself (assuming you have re-added it of course). --Mal 19:01, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Mal mate, what exactly is a "wiki sister site"? What's a wiki site? There's millions of "wiki sites"! I think what you're getting at is that it's a previously deleted image retrieved from a Wikipedia mirror, right?, but that's not really what you said :-) More importantly, where did it come from in the first place? Is it a publicity shot? OK, here we go, the old deleted text -

Jim Rodgers of the Ulster Unionist Party.

Source: http://nigov.tmtm.com/wiki/Jim_Rodgers

--kingboyk 00:10, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Alright I see what you were getting at now Mal but only in restrospect :-) Tis hopefully fixed. --kingboyk 00:13, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

RANT Yup - when the image was first deleted, the proposer suggested I fix it. I told him that I had pointed out that the website it came from was a Wiki site (as I had added the source when I created the image here). I had assumed that if it was on another Wiki site, then it could be used here.. but I wasn't sure of which copyright tag to put on it - I'm not a bloody solicitor! lol Anyway, I thought it had been sorted and forgot all about it.. thinking an editor that deals with copyrights of images might just be able to deal with it. Then I found the image had gone. So, of course, I re-added it.. from my hard drive. Of course, I'd forgotten completely the website I'd taken it from. I'd had a look at the source webpage a while ago, and noted that the bottom of the page said: "Content is available under GNU Free Documentation License 1.2."

You might think "Well duh - you should've selected the GFDL option while uploading"... and I considered it. But, because I'm not familiar with copyright law, I thought I'd leave it to someone else to sort... so I left the tag off. Unfortunately, two editors just ended up pointing out to me that I'd left the copyright info blank (duuhhh .. you don't say!?), and tagged it for deletion.

I remember researching policy on Wiki, and finding a project page which listed at least a couple of dozen editors who had listed themselves as being available for questions, and who monitored the copyright status of uploaded pics. It strikes me that if they say they're interested in it, then they should do their (voluntary) jobs perhaps. I left a note and got no reply.

And I'll tell you what's more.. I'm not that interested in copyright policy and I'm not that interested in Jim bloody Rodgers either! I left the info there so that people more knowledgeable than me could sort it. /ENDRANT

Thanks for fixing it up for me - that other guy wouldn't listen. --Mal 01:06, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Blimey O'Riley! On my talk page:

You've provided the wiki source for this image and tagged is as GFDL. However, at http://nigov.tmtm.com/wiki/Image:Jim_Rodgers.jpg there are no source or licencing details. Just because someone has uploaded it to this Wiki (without properly sourcing or licensing it) doesn't make it legitimately licensed under GNU Free Documentation - I'm therefore removing these details from the Wikipedia image page. Regards, CLW 08:42, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

The whole basis of the GFDL is that it allows reuse of work. Sure, the uploader at the other wiki might have got it wrong but we don't assume that! The image comes from a GFDL wiki, it's a very tame portrait of a politician, who the hell is gonna sue over it?! --kingboyk 13:51, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I've contacted the original uploader of the image, who has provided details of the original source, which I'll now add to the image page. The copyright status of the original is unconfirmed, and he adds that it might not therefore be usable on Wikipedia. As it hasn't specifically been licensed as GFDL at the other wiki, we can't licence it as GFDL here, so I'll contact Belfast City Council and ask them to confirm the copyright status of the image. I'll add their response to the image page so that we have evidence to back up whatever copyright tag we eventually apply to this one. CLW 08:53, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Gosh, well, can't argue with that, good work! :-) --kingboyk 16:27, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

CLW - thanks for your work. I'm sure you can understand my frustrations, and that my rant above was not specifically directed at you (or at least was borne out of said frustration anyway!). Cheers. --Mal 21:13, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Category:Northern Irish people

Mal, I want to say two things. Firstly, your user page is fantastic. Secondly, why did you create the cat. Northern Irish people, since there is one named Category:Northern Ireland people (which is used for same purpose)? I suggest you redirecting the category you've created to the other I'm referring. Best, Mxcatania 18:03, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Feel free to copy any ideas or code from my page if you find it useful. :)

I think I probably created the cat as a natural process. This is one of the reasons I have nominated all the cats for renaming - as an Northern Irish person, it is natural for me to create cats which are of the format "Northern Irish Fooers". Please see the CFD page: WP:CFD#Northern Irish categories (block rename proposal). --Mal 19:05, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi, just in response to your comment on my talk page. There is no automatic process of renaming subcats if the parent cat is renamed. What I was trying to highlight was the possibility that if we begin "voting" on the subcats before a decision is reached on renamingCategory:Northern Ireland people to Category:Northern Irish people it is possible to have the votes go two different ways - thus creating inconsistency. If we wait until a decision is reached on the parent cat, then this is a substantial argument for renaming the subcats consistently when this is subsequently proposed. Alternatively, it seems to me as there were a good few days left before a decision was made on the parent cat proposal, then it would have been reasonable for you to have amended the proposal on the parent cat to include the subcats too (although as the original proposal was for a different rename, then perhaps this might have been a little inappropriate). The issue seems moot now as it looks like both will go through with the form "Northern Irish ...". Hope that clarifies my point. It isn't an objection to the rename! Valiantis 14:53, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Causing more trouble Mal? I think a long-term block is in order! :P --kingboyk 16:58, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Hah! lol

Valiantis. I do understand (now) what you mean. As you say though, there seems to be much support for the proposal to rename the cat in the format "Fooish Fooers", on both proposals. But I understand what you meant, and I will bear your advice in mind for the future. Cheers. --Mal 21:16, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

John Marshall Watson

Why John Marshall Watson and not John Watson (Or a dab'd version thereof)? --kingboyk 18:29, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Dunno mate - I don't think I created that page. I'm happy enough with the title though.. I know you don't necessarily go by Google hits yourself, but a few websites do mention him as JMW. I looked at the disambig page for John Watson though, and it needs tweaking - cheers for pointing it out. What do you think of my improvements so far? And have you seen the Giant's Causeway page too? --Mal 18:53, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

What's he usually known as? More to the point, what name did he race under? (I don't particularly care btw :), so leave it where it is if you like!) --kingboyk 00:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Uhmmm .. I dunno tbh. If people type "John Watson" into the search box, they'll come up with a page which links to the guy. I'm still unclear as to what the best way about these disambig pages are. I mean .. should this former F1 driver get the slot (with an 'otheruses' tag)? If so, then why? --Mal 01:13, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

No, I don't think so. It's too common a name to give it to one person, unless they were mega famous. --kingboyk 01:16, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Your vote on beer and breweries categories

I read your vote as a support vote with use of United Kingdom for the British category, so heading it up with "oppose" seems misleading. If you have the time, could you please consider going back and clarifying it? The way it is now, your vote could end up leading to nothing being changed when you seem to be supporting all but one small detail, and your reservation is already taken into account in other comments. Thank you. Osomec 23:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

OK - I'll edit my comment to make it more clear.. once I find it again! --Mal 01:09, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Vote on pregnant woman incident

There is curently a vote taking place on 2006 Dublin riots talk page on whether info on the pregnant woman incident should be removed. Just thought it would interest you as the comment was most recently edited by you. --Beta 11:06, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Irish-Scots

Mal, can you review my last edition from the Irish-Scots wikipage (not the index) for content, as there are people (such as Demiurge)trying to gut almost all of my edits for no good, sourced reasons, and I suspect censorship may be afoot.

Thanks!!

Brandubh Blathmac 09:19, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

• Robert (and all your sockpuppets) - please quit obsessing about User:Demiurge and try working *with* other editors for a change - Ali-oops^✍ 09:21, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

You've had a vandal-visit mate! His account has been disruptive since day one (I think it's a kid) so I've given him a hearty block (some admins would have blocked indefinitely). --kingboyk 03:43, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Yup - that's the second time he's vandalised my user page. I think it all started because I left him a warning message for vandalism to a couple of articles. Cheers for being vigilant and for reverting. Mucho appreciateo... appreciatio.. apprecia... thanks! --Mal 12:43, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

If I remember rightly he was the wag who put "become gay" (struck out) on your todo list? --kingboyk 18:05, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

That's him. --Mal 18:47, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Truce

OK, I give up. I will no longer pig-headedly try to insist on "Northern Ireland" as an adjective. Listen, you are an excellent editor, and I respect you, and since I tend to edit on Northern Irish topics fairly regularly, I think that it would help if we had friendly communications.

As a token of my goodwill, I have started a new cat:

• Category:Northern Irish women

I was just about to go and populate it when I noticed that we have these duplicate cats:

• Category:Northern Irish people
• Category:Northern Ireland people

I thought that that was all cut-and-dried and over? Oh, I see that it is over 9 days old at CFD - must be a backlog. I've changed my Keep vote to an Alt Rename.

I must stick my hands up and say that I cocked-up by naming the new cat Category:Members of the United Kingdom Parliament from Northern Ireland constituencies. If it survives this CFD vote it must be renamed to:

• Category:Members of the United Kingdom Parliament from Northern Irish constituencies

Would you be willing to vote Keep and Rename for this useful new category? It seems a shame to destroy it upon birth when it is pretty much comprehensive already.

Sorry for being an arse. I'm afraid it is my natural state of being, only relieved by sudden, bright flashes of being a normal human being. --Mais oui! 09:53, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Mais Oui. I think conflict is natural when it comes to Irish/Northern Irish politics, religion and history. We may differ and argue in the future, but I see from this message that no malice is intended by you. I hope we agree more often than not of course. My main goal, as is yours I'm sure, is the improvement of articles relating to Northern Ireland, Ireland as a whole, and the UK. I've seen many of your edits, and I get the impression that you try hard to be very non-POV. I do too, though I can't promise that I'll always get it right!

The Northern Irish people category... I think I created it without even thinking to be honest. It is natural for me to think of myself as "Northern Irish", and so things I create or edit obviously are worded in a specific way. I know I've created a couple of other categories using the adj "Northern Irish" since I announced the CfD, as I've looked at my contribs list recently. Again - a natural thing.

If the parliamentary constituency cat is nominated for change, I'd certainly support it. I think its probably best to be bold though, and move it and then nominate the original cat for deletion instead though maybe. I dunno - I'm still getting to grips with the whole Wiki thang! --Mal 12:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Good.

Regarding the NI MP cat: we have a more pressing problem. Unless we vote to "Oppose merge" it, over at the current CFD debate, then there will be no "renaming" going on, because it will have been deleted! I think that this is a shame, because it adds much to the ability of readers to access articles about Northern Irish politics. If you would like to have a category for NI MPs then please Oppose the Merge nomination over at CFD. The "naming issue" and "should it exist at all issue" are getting hopelessly mixed up over there: the current debate is about "should they exist at all" (we can easily deal with the less-pressing "naming" issue... if they survive):

• Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Category:British_MPs

I wonder if you would consider reviewing the CFD debate, and contributing your thoughts?

Ta, --Mais oui! 17:00, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Done. I don't see the point in destroying the perfectly good work you (and others?) have done on these cats. --Mal 22:10, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

UK userbox vote

Hi there Setanta747, thanks for your message.

I decided to change my vote in the poll because I wanted to see a location userbox - that is, a "lives in" userbox, with "wikipedians in the UK" category. When I realised that one had been created, I thought that there was no point changing the other userbox as well. If we change the userbox as per my vote, we will have one box saying "This user lives in the UK" with the category "Wikipedians in the UK" and another usrbox saying "This user comes from the UK" with the category "British WIkipedians". Best of both worlds, I reckon.... ConDem^Talk 12:16, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah but the thing is, the vote is about whether the already existing userbox should remain a location box or be changed to a nationality/ethnicity box. There are now at least two other userboxes to describe British people and people who are currently located in the UK. The one we are debating was originally created to designate location, which is why I chose it for inclusion in my userpage. The wording had been changed and a few of us had changed it back to reflect the category it belonged to. Another couple of user boxes had already existed to denote British nationality, and this new one has also been created now within the last week or so. So the point of changing the text of the userbox being debated and voted on, was actually so that the best of both worlds existed! lol --Mal 13:13, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I see that the userbox's original intention was to be a location box, and understand why you would want it to be one once again, but since there already is a box of that exact description, what's the point of changing this one? Seems to me that if people want a location box, they can just change to the new one... ConDem^Talk 02:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

And it seems to me that if people want a nationality box they could have just changed to the one that was created for that reason.

The userbox name is United Kingdom. This is in keeping with the other four userboxes England, NI, Scotland and Wales - note that they are not "English", "Northern Irish", "Scottish" or "Welsh". The category created for this location userbox was "Wikipedians in the UK". In common parlance, the term "comes from" is often taken as meaning "lives in". It is an ambiguous term though, which can also mean "originated in". The purpose of changing the text originally was to clear up this ambiguity.. by changing the text to read "lives in". The userbox is used by people who are not necessarily British (for example, relocated US citizens), but who live and work in the UK.

There have been userboxes for to denote British ethnicity/nationality since before this debate began - I use one of them myself. Changing the category of this userbox simply adds to the growing list of userboxes that denote British nationality, and it also makes the userbox completely wrong for non-British people living in the UK.

Finally, here is a list of the UK and regional userboxes, found in the Location category page:

These userboxes, taken from the page Wikipedia:Userboxes/Location/United Kingdom:

Code	Result
{{user United Kingdom}}	This user comes from The United Kingdom.
{{user England}}	This user lives in England.
{{user Great Britain}}	This user lives in Great Britain.
{{user NI}}	This user lives in Northern Ireland.
{{user Scotland}}	This user lives in Scotland.
{{user Wales}}	This user lives in Wales.

Can you spot the difference..? ;)

Should the vote go in favour of changing the category, maximum disruption will be caused: Users who are not British will either find themselves mis-categorised, or will have to drop the use of this userbox and find one that is more suitable - one that denotes that they are not British, but live in the UK... the userbox will have to be removed from the Locations category page etc etc.

--Mal 11:47, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Alright, you've convinced me! I'll change my vote. I see what you mean about the location userboxes. By the way, your talk page is on my watchlist. ConDem^Talk 13:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

OK thanks mate. Sorry to make you chop and change like that, but I felt I had to convince you as to the argument from my perspective. I'm not sure it very well explained on the voting page. Thanks for listening (and I thank you even had you not changed your mind about it). --Mal 17:09, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I do not in any way want to seem rude here, but can I just quickly remind you that I understnad one of the terms of the poll is that users shall not try and persuade people to reconsider their vote. I am not saying you are doing anything wrong (infact the voter came to you), but we want this poll to show that the users themselves want the template to be. Thanks! Ian13/talk 17:18, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Well Ian, to be honest, another location userbox has recently been created, which is why ConDem had changed his mind. The creation of that userbox could very well have an affect on peoples' voting (possibly a reason why it had been created?). In the end, I'm not sure that people understand the concepts as laid out in the vote page, and I don't think they're likely to look at the talk page.

With most voting on Wikipedia, comments after peoples' votes have been cast, are allowed.. and this has convinced people of the logic of whatever argument.. enough for them to reconsider the logic of their initial vote (or, in this case, ConDem's change of mind - due to the creation of basically a duplicate userbox which serves the exact same purpose as the one we're voting on).

The upshot is that I think you have to bear in mind this recent change, which had affected one user's vote, and may affect others too. That is what prompted me to ask ConDem why he had changed his vote. I hadn't previously been aware of the new userbox. --Mal 17:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but all the relevent arguments should be laid out on the poll page for people to make their own judged decision. On this page you have shown the inconsistancies with the England, Wales etc. and yet people of another argument have not been able to show the France, Germany... inconsistancies. At the end of the day - this could give one side an unfair advantage. Ian13/talk 19:12, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Even besides that - I am working on the general rules which people from both sides agreed to. As far as I am aware, no-one from option 1, 2 or 4 has contacted opposing voters in such a way. Ian13/talk 19:14, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

You are quite welcome to add further arrising notes to the reasoning on ay of the proposals (obviously creating a seperate template at this stage could be seen as a violation of WP:POINT, and me failing in moderation with WP:BEANS, but I hope I am able to engage in open discussion with all parties. Thanks, and please take my comments in good faith, I am only aiming of a fair vote... Ian13/talk 19:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)