Another French draft horse breed... Unlike the last breed I had here, this breed had a precipitous population decline in the last half of the 20th century, and today is in danger of extinction. This is another collaboration between myself and User:Tsaag Valren, the wonderful French editor who took this article to featured status on the French WP, with additional help from numerous others. I look forward to your comments! (Oh, and this is a WikiCup article.) Dana boomer (talk) 00:47, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: Dana boomer. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
Comments by Sasata (talk) 20:07, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Support – Seems to meet the FA criteria. Sasata (talk) 20:40, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Quick comments/suggestions on prose & links from a 1st readthrough. I'll be back later with a literature check and perhaps a spotcheck of sources.
am wondering if the article should be in British English (per WP:TIES)?
I'm not sure how this article is a "topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation"? It's a French breed, and obviously France is closer to Britain than the US, but I don't think I've seen WP:TIES used in that manner before... Dana boomer (talk) 21:08, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
And here, what few exports went to English-speaking nations went to the US rather than the UK, so geography probably not really a factor for that reason also. --Montanabw
I'm not particularly fussed about it, but it seems odd to me to have an article about a European breed written in US English. For a recent example of WP:Ties used in this manner, see . Perhaps other reviewers will comment. Sasata (talk) 04:32, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
"Enthusiasts claim descent from the horses painted on the cave walls of Lascaux," European or French descent?
I'm not sure what you mean here? Dana boomer (talk) 21:08, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, misread the sentence. Sasata (talk) 04:32, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
"… as engineers began draining the French marshes and brought with them their draft horses, which were crossed on native horses." Confused – were they French engineers or from somewhere else? Also "crossed on" or "crossed with"?
Elsewhere - clarified. Either "on" or "with" would be correct, but I've standardized to "with". Dana boomer (talk) 11:59, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
"…with a breeders' association being created in 1923." noun+ing
"Bone" singular is correct technical language when referencing the quality of skeletal structure in horses. Weird, but correct. --Montanabw
"it matures late" what does maturity mean in this context? The absence of further physical growth, or sexual maturity?
Physical maturity - the time at which the skeletal structure has matured enough to stand up to the abuse of heavy labor. This occurs at different times in different breeds, with larger breeds (draft horses, especially) maturing later than smaller, lighter breeds. Dana boomer (talk) 21:08, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
Agree with Dana, and a note that horses in general reach sexual maturity far before they reach physical maturity. --Montanabw
Ok, could this explanation be fit in the text somehow; I'm worried there's not enough context for non-horsey types to understand what this means. Sasata (talk) 04:32, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
"many breeds which influenced it." which->that (check article throughout; "which" generally follows a comma)
"The breed standards accept all colors" or "The breed standard accepts all colors"?
link natural selection
"Mesolithic remains (20,000 to 5,000 BC) being found" noun+ing
link ecclesiastical, castrate
redlink Eugene Gayot? (there's an article on the French Wikipedia)
"Breeders chose horses with large joints, thick coats and a high croup, as well as having a preference for a black coat color." fix grammar (maybe change "as well as having a" to "and had a")
link stud farm on 1st occurrence
redlink French National Stud? (or link National Stud to Horse breeding?)
Redlinked. I really need to write that article... Dana boomer (talk) 21:08, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
You might want to consider trimming commas after occurrences of "By year," "In year," and "Between year and year," as they're not really necessary
I was always taught that they were necessary, and it's how I've always written. Is this a big deal? Dana boomer (talk) 11:59, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Nope. But consider "It is permissible to omit the comma after a brief introductory element if the omission does not result in confusion or hesitancy in reading." So, for example "In 1867, there were 50,000 pure and crossbred mares." could be changed to "In 1867 there were 50,000 pure and crossbred mares." without any loss of meaning or confusion to the reader. But this is largely stylistic so feel free to ignore. Sasata (talk) 04:32, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
"By the early 1990s, population numbers fell to the lowest in history." what were these numbers?
I haven't been able to find this. I've dropped a note to User:Tsaag Valren to see if the exact numbers are in any of her sources. Dana boomer (talk) 11:59, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
"There is a significant risk of inbreeding, leading to the Unité Nationale de Sélection et de Promotion de Race promoting a plan of managed breeding in 1998." noun+ing
link genetic diversity, morphologically
the word "approximately" is used in two consecutive sentences; consider changing one to "about" or "roughly"
"in order to allow the numbers of purebred stock to continue." perhaps "in order to maintain the numbers of purebred stock."
link Institut national de la recherche agronomique (and confirm capitalization)
link breeding stock, breed show
"227 mares were covered" avoid starting a sentence with a number
"A stud farm also exists in Sweden." where in Sweden (specific locales are given for others)
Also one in the US, which I've now added... I don't know where, specifically, the source doesn't say and I haven't been able to find the information elsewhere. I've dropped a note to User:Tsaag Valren to see if she has any sources that would cover this info. Dana boomer (talk) 11:59, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
For the Sweden, I know that it's the stallion Leonardo 11 who were exported (photo in the infobox) but I don't know where... See here : http://www.poitevin.org/ . And for the US, I really don't know --Tsaag Valren (talk) 23:03, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
"It is also used extensively" ->They are (previous sentence, to which "it" refers, uses plural "Members of the breed")
I checked the academic databases and didn't find any glaring omissions from the literature. A few comments after trawling through Google Books:
this source says that the horse can also be sorrel
Sorrel is basically the same color as chestnut, which is already noted in the article. (Sorrel is a regional dialect thing, mostly used in the American west, so not appropriate descriptor for the Poitevin)--Montanabw
Yes, what Montanabw said above. Also, this is a children's encyclopedia, which are notorious for getting even basic terminology wrong and/or simplifying things to the point of being incorrect, especially when it comes to rare non-US breeds. Dana boomer (talk) 11:58, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
is the entire leg well-feathered, or just the fetlocks?
Feathering (horse) is basically something that occurs only on the lower leg, but I added "lower" to clarify. Hope that worked --Montanabw
according to this source, in 1996 the Poitevin population fell to 28 approved stallions and 64 registered foals.
from the preceding source, might it be worthwhile to mention any of the following:
that the International Donkey Protection Program and Donkey Sanctuary of England support the Poitevin breeding and research program
that all purebreds are to be implanted with id chips
young horses have long hair that disappears by ages 2–4 with regular grooming, and ungroomed hair will form cadenettes?
I think that is the Poitou donkey you are noting from that source, which is very shaggy and gets "cadenettes" (aka "dreadlocks! LOL!). But horses don't get dreadlocks, and this breed doesn't have the hair coat characterictic of the Curly horse, either. --Montanabw
The majority of this source is referring to the Poitou donkey, including the last three points that you made. The population numbers are referring to the Poitevin, and I have added these, as well as the source that Tsaag Valren provided above, into the article. Dana boomer (talk) 11:58, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
This just proves I don't know my ass from a horse on the ground! Sasata (talk) 20:40, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments! I think all of the linking and basic copyediting stuff is done; I'm still working on the rest. I'm leaving comments above only if I have questions on anything... Dana boomer (talk) 21:08, 4 June 2013 (UTC)
I think I've addressed everything above, and left replies for any that I had questions/comments on. Dana boomer (talk) 11:59, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
I commented on a couple small things on behalf of WikiProject Equine, as Dana and I have collaborated in the past and I generally Support her efforts, even where I am probably a bit too involved to be considered a neutral reviewer. Montanabw(talk) 17:22, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
Source review - spotchecks not done
Suggest formatting citations in two columns
FN21: citation has two authors listed, References entry has three
FN23: suggest using at parameter rather than page
FN27: page formatting
Be consistent in whether you include publisher for journals
Thank you for the source review, Nikki. I think I have addressed all of your comments. Dana boomer (talk) 01:55, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Support from Jim I did the GA review for this, and I can't see any new issues. The minor referencing points identified by Nikkimaria should be easily fixed, so you have my support Jimfbleak -talk to me? 18:56, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Thank you very much, Jim! Your GA review definitely helped to improve the article to where it is today. Dana boomer (talk) 01:55, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Image check all OK (own work, OTRS, PD-age). Sources and authors provided.
Added a few US-tags (Commons images need source country and US copyright). OK. GermanJoe (talk) 07:17, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the image review, GermanJoe! Dana boomer (talk) 01:55, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Support: I reviewed my own contributions to this particular article and found they were quite minimal and mostly prior to the FA run, so as this is primarily Dana's and Tsaag's effort. I believe I am uninvolved enough in this article to add my name to those who support this FAC. Montanabw(talk) 22:49, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
The last sentence of the uses section is redundant because it repeats information in the previous section explaining why the breed numbers declined. Otherwise nicely done.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:59, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
You are quite correct. I have removed this sentence. Thanks for the comment! Dana boomer (talk) 18:15, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Support – I'm not an expert on French draft horse breeds, but I didn't notice any real issues while reading through the article. Overall, it's another solid article in this niche, and appears to be star-worthy. Giants2008 (Talk) 23:33, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
Support - content is clearly written and accessible (even for laymen), the article is well-organised. No obvious gaps in coverage or sourcing. Another fine article in that area well within FA-range. GermanJoe (talk) 08:09, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
Giants and GermanJoe, thank you very much for your support of the article. Dana boomer (talk) 13:49, 19 June 2013 (UTC)