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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:28, 24 April 2021 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of sculptures of Ludwig van Beethoven

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List of sculptures of Ludwig van Beethoven (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Aza24 (talk) 02:25, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It may seem like a niche list to work on, but it has a purpose, or at least had one. Beethoven's 250th anniversary was last year and I was trying to get this as the TFL (for 17 December) but only got as far as a DYK... Oh well. Anyways, Beethoven's central status in the history of Western classical music has made him the subject of a lot of monuments. And I mean a lot—so this is a dynamic list; regardless, I'm confident I have entries for the most important and well-known monuments. Another point of interest might be the 45 or so busts by Antoine Bourdelle; I opted to limit them in a separate list as to not overwhelm the main list with entries by them. The list should be fully sortable. Thanks in advanced to any who review. Aza24 (talk) 02:25, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Dynamic list template should go before the list, not at the top of the page
  • I think a more appropriate title would be List of sculptures of Ludwig van Beethoven. Like the Beethoven House has eight sculptures of him, but they aren't all individually monuments. "Monument" is not necessarily a synonym for "three-dimensional artwork of a person".
  • The "Type" category isn't that clear: all of these are sculptures, including the busts and statues, so there shouldn't necessarily just be a subset of them called sculptures. E.g. it seems to me the one at Plaza Lavalle looks like it would be a relief, and at Alter Zoll is a statue. I guess some of them aren't as categorizable but this needs some work.
  • "arist" typo
  • " supposably" is not a word
  • Three links of types are actually links to the specific artwork. This is not expected and should perhaps be linked in the location instead.
  • I don't mind the splitting of the Bourdelle works (which are likewise generic artworks and not monuments per se), but seven out of "at least 45" is very incomplete. Although generally it may be hard to say for sure "this list is complete" and that's permissible, this seems quite inadequate for an FL. Unless it's it's redefined to be specially "monuments" and not just any old sculptures, which would remove several in the main list too, this section should be more comprehensive.
  • I take pause at the Unexecuted monuments. For example the Friedrich von Amerling and Drake ones were just an alternate proposal to the one by Hähnel that was chosen. Surely many of the other monuments went through multiple design proposals too, so this also suggests a greater degree of incompleteness. They should be included at Beethoven Monument but I'm not so sure about here.

Reywas92Talk 03:35, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Reywas92 many thanks for your comments. I've addressed your minor ones (though I will note that supposably is a word—but certainly not the right one, in this case).
  • I will ponder over the unexecuted monuments suggestion, though most of these are important enough (e.g. they have some history behind them, perhaps I add some notes to each of them?) that I would advocate their inclusion.
  • Yes notes are nice
  • For the Bourdelle works I actually forgot that I only had 7 (they're hard to find, as there's not list of them anywhere I could find) so I will surely add plenty more when I have time.
  • As for the other two points (type & article name) you seem to be stumbling onto two problems I've pondered over myself, but struggled to find a satisfactory conclusion, so maybe we can help each other here:
  • For type, my goal here is primarily to be able to sort busts, reliefs and (probably) statues; as you say some are ambiguous, so I've opted for the equally ambiguous "sculpture", any advice here would be appreciated, but I'm really not sure if there is going to be a perfect way to go about this.
  • Maybe whatever can't fit into the other categories would be "other sculpture"?
  • The name used to be List of statuary of Ludwig von Beethoven but I moved it. I would disagree with your interpretation of the word "monument"—OED says it is a "A statue, building, or other structure erected to commemorate a famous or notable person or event." which seems to cover the content... I'm not opposed to changing it to "sculptures" should that be a more direct title, but I would aim for keeping the reliefs. Busts and Statues are surely sculptures; our relief article says it's a "sculptural technique" so I am left unsure. - Aza24 (talk) 04:56, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Right, statues with pedestals and plaques or other public commemoration would be a monument, but the regular sculptures and depictions don't quite fit that, like not every sculpture in a museum is a monument. Yes, reliefs are definitely sculptures to be included.
  • An additional comment would be that unknown artists don't need gray backgrounds. Reywas92Talk 19:28, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reywas92, sorry for my untimely update. I believe I've addressed all of your comments now; I pondered over adding notes, but decided such information would be better for the artist's articles, and it looks odd to have notes for the unexecuted, but not the executed. They're all included in the lead anyways. Aza24 (talk) 00:57, 11 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from ~ HAL333 21:46, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
====Comments====
  • Do enough of the works have names so that a separate column would make sense?
  • Beethoven's life span needs a source.
  • Since it is sortable, I would link everything in the "Type" column.
  • Note c needs a period.

More comments later. ~ HAL333 23:04, 16 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

    • Thanks for these so far HAL333, I've addressed the second and last; I would say no to the separate column thing (only 5–8 have articles) and they are linked in the type column, which is why not all the entries have links there. Aza24 (talk) 05:44, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure if this is needed, but should there be sources for the explanations of the paintings and painters in "See also"?
    • I've removed the portrait painters, they were probably a little excessive! I've replaced the other two descriptions with ones that use the short descriptions of the respective articles (as described in WP:SEEALSO), which I don't think need references. Aza24 (talk) 01:00, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is note d needed if you already mention it in the lede? (Up to you in the end)
  • What's the difference between 1970? and c. 1970

That's all. Nice work. ~ HAL333 15:27, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, HAL333, I've addressed the above. I'm sad to see how short lived your green signature was...! Aza24 (talk) 01:00, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, Saint Patrick's Day comes but once a year.🍀 ~ HAL333 21:45, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Ham II

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Sorry for the delay Ham II, I looked in a book about Beethoven sculpture and couldn't find anything about the pop culture appearances. I think I've addressed your other comments though, and added the appropriate works. Aza24 (talk) 07:03, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If reliable sources don't cover this, that's fair enough. I've never looked into Beethoven's reception history before (art history is my field), but I am struck by the popularity of plaster busts of the composer. I still count nine works on vanderkrogt.net that are missing here: at the Alte Oper, Frankfurt; the Grand Théâtre de Genève; the Conservatoire de Musique de Genève; Graz; the Staatsoper Hannover; the Frieze of Parnassus on the Albert Memorial, London; Nuremberg; the Latvian National Museum of Art; and Uffenheim. I've added the Walhalla bust. Ham II (talk) 06:42, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from User:SNUGGUMS

Just for the record, I moved this page to correspond with how the main page got renamed after being nominated for FL. Putting a placeholder comment here for now since I intend to assess the images among other things. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 19:05, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Now getting into the content:

I vastly underestimated how many images would be featured here (61 uploads and 9 external links, giving a grand total of 70). It's by far the most I've ever seen used in one Wikipedia article! While there's some work to do here, I believe you can get it up to par. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 01:22, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Following the image improvement and ref adjustments, I give my support for the nomination and media review passes. While I would also prefer not to use an image multiple times here, that's not enough to keep me from saying it's ready to become FL. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 12:46, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks! Aza24 (talk) 01:35, 26 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Gerda

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Impressive list! Only very minor things:

  • In the introduction, we have two Vienna in a row.
    • Sorted
  • I don't care about the little flags, especially since at Beethoven's (and some artists') time, these flags didn't yet exist.
    • My rationale is that the location column might be confusing otherwise when sorted. Usually when columns are sorted, one expects to see a clear group of items, but since these are sorted by country (and the specific location or city is put first) I was concerned that this might not be obvious enough without the flags. Maybe this makes sense? Otherwise, if you still disagree, I'm open to removing.
      Well, we are used to sorting by year having a date fist, and by surname, having a given name first. You could also explain the sort. For me, the little flags are both sometimes wrong in history, and always a little coloured distraction from the artwork, but that may be just me.
  • How about "Liszt and Brahms"?
    • Done
  • I wonder if we could have a link from the introduction to the monument in the table, instead to other articles, which could be reserved to the table entries. Just an idea. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:21, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've responded above Gerda Arendt, many thanks for your (as usual) helpful comments. Aza24 (talk) 07:10, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:24, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Support excellent list, as it is, and sure can get even better ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:00, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment

I made one little fix which it was easier to just do than to point out here, and am more than happy to support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:53, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Source review passed; promoted. --PresN 22:41, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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