Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 December 10

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December 10[edit]

Fraise and Framboise[edit]

The first three letters of these words are the same. Also the last three letters.

Is this just a coincidence, or is there some historical reason why these two words are so similar? Thanks, CBHA (talk) 00:20, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

A great question! Yes: I would not have suspected it myself, but the two words influenced each other. Etymologies from Petit Robert:
Fraise [Strawberry]
freise XIIe; altér. d'apr. la finale de °frambaise ( framboise), de °fraie du lat. pop. °fraga, plur. neutre de fragum, pris comme fém. sing.
Framboise [Raspberry]
frambaise XIIe; frq. °brambasia « mûre », avec changement d'initiale d'apr. fraise
¡ɐɔıʇǝoNoetica!T– 01:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
It slowly seeped into my head that there probably was a link there. Thank you. CBHA (talk) 02:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
As the etymologies show, the endings aren't as different as they seem. Based on what I know about the history of oi words, I'd guess frambouèze would have been the predominant European pronunciation as recently as 1800. In Canada, this pronunciation is still a common nonstandard variant. (talk) 07:41, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
The etymology of strawberry and raspberry are also interesting. Strawless (talk) 18:15, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Latin translation request[edit]

A friend of mine wants a Latin translation of the following phrase: "Preach the gospel at all times, and when necessary, use words". I've produced the following as a candidate translation: "Praedicate Evangelium omni tempore-- cum oporteat, verbis." Since she's looking to inscribe this in a fairly permanent medium, and I haven't done much Latin in the past few years, I'd appreciate suggestions-- or corrections. Since it's a Christian phrase, I've aimed for the style of the Vulgate Bible. Thanks for any help-- (talk) 01:52, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

For "at all times" you could just use "semper". "Omni tempore" doesn't mean "alawys" so much as "in every time period" (or "in all types of weather", heh). Adam Bishop (talk) 02:01, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
On looking up more passages I think you're right. I was basing my choice on Deut 11:1 is "custodi observationem eius ... omni tempore." (always keep His charges...) But John 6:34, Mark 14:7 "Semper enim pauperes habetis vobiscum" (You always have the poor with you), etc. Thanks. (talk) 04:35, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
See 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. The third entry in the first column is Latin: Biblia Sacra Vulgata:
"praedica verbum insta oportune inportune argue obsecra increpa in omni patientia et doctrina".
This passage lacks capitalization, punctuation, and macrons.
-- Wavelength (talk) 03:42, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
One minor bit of nitpicking: in the original suggestion, I think 'cum oporteat' should be 'cum oportet'. When cum is used in its temporal sense (rather than being causal, 'since') it takes the indicative, not the subjunctive. Maid Marion (talk) 09:52, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


This is something of a follow up to my last question about a deaf student in my EFL class. I'm interested in learning about methods of teaching lipreading, specifically in a foreign language context. Lipreading in English is hard enough as it is (a stated 30-40% accuracy rate), and it is made astronomically harder by limited vocabulary and a lack of familiarity with the grammatical possiblities of a language, although it can be eased when the content of speech is limited to known words. For the same reason, even though I am bilingual, I find it much harder to understand speech in a noisy environment than native speakers of my second language, because although I can usually be sure what a word is, it's often hard for me to be sure what a word isn't.

Anyway, since lipreading isn't as widespread as it used to be in the US and UK, it's hard to find resources online, and I've only been able to find a book from 1919 pdf'd, though obviously it's on teaching methods of lipreading in general. If anyone has any knowledge or knows of a resource that may have information on foreign language studies for deaf students, I would really appreciate it. Thanks! (talk) 02:05, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I was going to reply to your last post, but I decided not to, as there were so many other replies. Anyway, I taught English at a number of places in Japan, notably a few kindergartens, elementary schools, and also at a centre for handicapped children, of which I was the vice-chairman. Many of the kids I taught were hearing-impaired, but I found that they all could lip-read without any specific training. Many of them were outstanding students, in that they could answer questions far faster than others who had no hearing difficulties, but some weren't as good. In fact, they just represented a cross-section of the population in general. They needed no special attention, as they made do with the faculties they had. However, I had to study JSL for my own homeroom at a kindergarten, because I had a a student who was hearing-impaired. I am shocked to hear that your school did not tell you about your student or even let you have access to the files on students, as I was the one who had to write them in my school (as all homeroom teachers do). Are you sure you are a homeroom teacher? You question points to a fascinating subject, but it is just not necessary. If you do, however, find anything, I would be grateful if you let me know, as I am, too, interested.--KageTora (talk) 20:08, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to posit a reason for the parental behaviour you observe. My total experience with Japan consists of one one-week long business trip, but we were coached on behaviour and attitude, and I read more after the trip to wonder if this contributes to your situation...
To some degree, Japan is "obsessed" (probably poor choice of word, but I can't think of a better one) with Purity. Purity in race means that third-generation Korean immigrants are still considered foreigners; many "table manner" issues arise/arose in the interest of cleanliness, a form of purity; etc. Is it possible that the parents of your special children see this hearing problem as a defect, which in some sense makes them impure -- something to be avoided at all costs?
(I realize this is a reference desk, and I haven't searched for my several-year-old sources to back up my statements. Further, it is not my intention to offend, but my remarks could easily be taken as offensive by some.) --DaHorsesMouth (talk) 23:38, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
You got coached on Japanese culture on that high a level for a week-long business trip? Wow. Anyway, while purity may be partially the reason, my bet is on the Uchi-soto dychotomy. TomorrowTime (talk) 07:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Edit: I read the Uchi-soto article, and it is in pretty bad shape, and doesn't convey at all what I wanted to say with the above comment. Basically, in Japan you are always considered part of this or that group, and it can be essential for the well-being of a person to be acceptable to the general public, i.e. part of the "right" groups. Maybe the parents of the girl simply don't want to have her be seen as part of the disabled group. TomorrowTime (talk) 09:22, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

KageTora: Thanks for the comment. It's encouraging to hear that that you have had success with hearing-impaired students in the past; Sara may be motivated if she hears that. It's quite possible that the reason she hasn't quite got the lipreading thing yet is because of a lack of effort from her previous teachers. The guy didn't even bother to tell me about her, so I doubt he had spent much time talking to her. My school has a system where there are two homeroom teachers assigned to every class, whether Japanese or foreign. It's a little bit silly, and while there is no sharing of homeroom time or doubling up in classes, one teacher usually forces all of the paperwork on the other anyway. Since I am the new guy at my school, the other teacher may have been trusted with all the students private information, and she never bothered to cut me in. I'll ask her about that. Doesn't really affect this situation though, because Sara isn't one of my homeroom students.

Googling I found this paper by an educator named Claire Ozel who I think works in Turkey and had a similar experience with a hearing-impaired student and I found interesting. I'm attempting to contact her for any information but nothing yet.

DaHorsesMouth: Thanks for your comment. Yes, it's possible that her parents feel her deafness is a defect, but I think they make up for it by making clear their intention to allow her a normal education. I don't know if they know what is best for her, and I don't think I do either, but I have to trust them that much I guess. I thought a bit about it now, and since Sara is 14 I think she has the right to find her own identity, and I don't think her parents will have much to do with what she choses anymore. Or maybe I just hope that.

While I think that there is always the risk of offending someone by generalizing, we're not attempting to judge anyone by preconception, but instead we are looking at a sample and seeing how it fits into existing stereotypes, which can be useful in understanding and predicting future behaviour and reasoning, IMO. Another way to describe this "purity" is summed up in one of my least favourite Japanese proverbs "The nail that sticks out gets hammered down" (出る杭は打たれる). At the same time, there is also a word: "10 people 10 colors" (十人十色) that promotes the opposite. I often hear the former used to explain why things are the way they are, and the latter as a kind of inspirational quote that kids like to write in high school yearbooks. I believe that things like "national character" are, even when generalize, always on a gradient, and that they do change. If I am to choose one or the other, then I'd say that Japan does feel a lot more like the first proverb than other places I've been in for any length of time, but I'm reluctant to admit that. But when I'm faced with cases like the failure of the family and the school to admit the condition of an autistic spectrum girl in one of my classes (I mentioned her above), I feel I must. I can't really say much more than that. As for the "uchi-soto" thing; I've never felt that a useful label to explain social dynamics in Japan. I feel it is too complex and I don't think people could subconsciously conform to a mindset like that. I think if you describe it as a residual xenophobia or some kind of introversion, it make more sense. (talk) 12:00, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

How to say this word "Lidgbird"?[edit]

As the title, how to say this word "Lidgbird"? "Lidgbird" is a family name.--百楽兎 (talk) 02:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

There's a Mount Lidgbird on Lord Howe Island, named after Henry Lidgbird Ball, and it's pronounced "LIJ-bird" (or "LIDGE-bird", if you prefer), so I imagine that's the normal pronunciation. -- JackofOz (talk) 02:57, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
DG before a consonant is also seen in the alternative spelling "judgment" for "judgement"... AnonMoos (talk) 03:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Thank you all.--百楽兎 (talk) 08:32, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Looking for a useful audio-guide on accents/dialects from Great Britain and Ireland[edit]

Title says it all; I've learned to distinguish and localize certain types of American English, but remain clueless on the differences among people from the British Isles. I only found youtube clips by self-professed accent-imitators covering the entire Anglosphere, but some of their American accents sounded pretty phony even to my ears, and I don't trust the authenticity of their other imitations.

Alternatively, if there is not one source covering all, I'd be equally grateful for links to people (characters in film or on TV, politicians, etc) speaking a certain dialect in a typical and unadultered fashion. I want to learn to identify them as specifically as reasonably possible (i.e. beyond "Scottish" or "Irish", which I can usually already recognize). Thank you very much. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:43, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The first three external links at Dialect appear to be relevant to what you are seeking.
-- Wavelength (talk) 08:15, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Try this site: [1]

--TammyMoet (talk) 09:48, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The soap operas offer a good starting point. Eastenders has some reasonably accurate cockney voices, Emmerdale has some of the more local Yorkshire accents, Brookside used to do Liverpudlian accents and Coronation Street is just rubbish. For Geordie look up Byker Grove. For famous people with distinctive regional voices (England)I would say Lily Savage, Harry Redknapp, Fred Dibnah (or Peter Kay), Jimmy Nail (or Ant and Dec), Liam Gallagher, Russel Howard (think he's Bristol accent?) and then the guy from Auf Wiedersehn Pet that sounds Brummie. (talk) 15:41, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Russell Howard has a slight Bristol accent - but he does sometimes put on a stronger one for comedic effect. Jethro has a Cornish accent. DuncanHill (talk) 15:49, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
The guy from Auf Wiedersehen Pet who sounds Brummie is actually Timothy Spall, and he learnt the accent for the part. I agree he does sound authentic, but if you'd like to hear a Brummie accent, you need to hear Adrian Chiles (who is reasonably well-spoken but it still comes out from time to time), Frank Skinner (who is actually Black Country), or Carl Chinn (who gets called a "professional Brummie" from time to time...) hope this helps!--TammyMoet (talk) 18:41, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Michael Parkinson does a fair job of a typical Yorkshire accent. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:17, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
If you want to hear a proper Liverpool accent, you'd be wanting to watch Boys from the Black Stuff by Alan Bleasdale. You'd be getting a decent representation there. Brookside is no longer on telly anymore.--KageTora (talk) 19:45, 10 December 2008 (UTC)--KageTora (talk) 19:45, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone for the pointers. I will eventually copy and re-organize this thread into userspace, for more in-depth exploration during the holiday season, so please keep adding! ---Sluzzelin talk 18:53, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

There are the Wallace and Gromit claymations where Wallace is voiced as a Northerner by Peter Sallis who also appears in Last of the Summer Wine set in Yorkshire. The accents are different according to the articles and the area is diverse anyway. Any shorts by Aardman Animations provide a range of British accents. Example, Creature Comforts with Victor the Geordie mouse and others. Then there's the Beatles for Liverpool of course. From Oasis (Manchester) Noel Gallagher speaks on YouTubeYouTube - Noel Gallagher on Russell Brand Radio Show.avi. Malcolm McLaren is London, while Johnny Rotten is housing estate North London, circa 1970s, and if you catch The Bill you'll find the housing estate accent has changed to a subtle mix (W'appen?). Don't forget Ali G for British wigger. Julia Rossi (talk) 22:14, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
Whatever Happened to the Likely Lads? for James Bolam's Geordie. DuncanHill (talk) 22:39, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
The Archers (radio) for English Midlands. It's bound to still play somewhere. If you can't find in on BBC reruns, try BFBS. (talk) 01:10, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks again! ---Sluzzelin talk 08:31, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Filipino question[edit]

What does the following 'filipino' question mean-"I lan ang dila ng ta o" .Please reply fast some one —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Apparently it's on the net as "Ilan ang dila ng tao?" meaning How many languages do you speak? How many
lanugages oops languages does the person speak? or something like that. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:29, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


I am looking to find the whole alphabet list using, alpha bravo charlie delta echo foxtrot where would i find that —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:15, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

NATO phonetic alphabet. Algebraist 23:17, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Quick follow up - do we have the one which starts "a for 'orses, b for mutton, c for miles..." DuncanHill (talk) 23:22, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Found it at Cockney alphabet. DuncanHill (talk) 23:25, 10 December 2008 (UTC)