Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Orpheus in the Underworld/archive1
Orpheus in the Underworld (Orphée aux enfers, 1858) is a comic opera with music by Jacques Offenbach and words by Hector Crémieux and Ludovic Halévy. It was extensively revised and expanded in 1874 for a run that broke box-office records at the Théâtre de la Gaîté, Paris. In the opera, a lampoon of the legend of Orpheus and Eurydice, Orpheus is a rustic violin teacher who is glad to be rid of his wife when she is abducted by the god of the underworld. The reprehensible conduct of the gods of Olympus was widely seen as a veiled satire of the court and government of Napoleon III, Emperor of the French. Some critics expressed outrage at the librettists' disrespect for classic mythology and the composer's parody of Gluck's opera Orfeo ed Euridice; others praised the piece highly. It was Offenbach's first full-length opera and remains the one that is most often performed. Can-can cabaret acts still use its "Galop infernal", adopted later in the 19th century by the Moulin Rouge and Folies Bergère. (Full article...)
Just a suggested blurb ... thoughts and edits are welcome. - Dank (push to talk) 20:45, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
- This seems to me an excellent summary. If there is room I might perhaps rephrase the last sentence on the lines of "The best known number from the opera is the "Galop infernal", which since the 1890s has been used to accompany the can-can at cabarets such as the Moulin Rouge and Folies Bergère." Tim riley talk 07:21, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- I sadly missed peer review and FAC. Jacques Offenbach - as the lead makes perfectly clear - did not write Orpheus in the Underworld, but Orphée aux enfers, and that's was what was premiered and what the critics reviewed. It should show in the blurb, perhaps by a pipe link with translation. - I also wonder if "god of the underworld" should be linked to the one in Greek mythology. - Some - btw - think it's no opera at all, but an operetta. - Opéra bouffe, as our article says, is a French operetta, another term which the blurb could mention, instead odf comic opera, as more precise. The article should mention this genre, at least in addition, if not instead of comic opera, which sounds a bit misleading. - Is it really performed more often worldwide than Tales of Hoffman? Always learning. And if it's no opera, the sentence is moot anyway. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:17, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- I disagree with pretty much all of the previous contribution, and advise sticking to "comic opera". It is a mug's game trying to put a tag on comic light opera, and Offenbach called the 1858 version an "opéra bouffon" (sic) and the 1874 version an "opéra féerie". What it definitely was not and is not is an opérette - which many non-specialist readers will assume means the same as the English "operetta", which it doesn't. Stick to "comic opera" and you will be clear, correct and will avoid confusing our readers. As to the title, I should personally prefer to use the French version of the title, but WP:COMMONNAME is perfectly clear. I shouldn't object to including the French title in brackets if there's room, but it really isn't important. Tim riley talk 12:43, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- I think "Orpheus in the Underworld" is fine: it's the article title (COMMONNAME and all that). We are talking about the front page blurb, not the article, where the position is made clear. Ditto on "comic opera": the article clarifies the structure and unless we repeat the entire lead as the front page blurb, the distinction does not need to be made at every mention. - SchroCat (talk) 12:57, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Good to see so much discussion in a blurb review. Thoughts, Gerda? - Dank (push to talk) 13:07, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Consistently throughout the Opera project, we use the English translation of opera names when English speakers commonly use those names. Here is the advice at WP:OPERA: "The standard practice is to use English titles of operas for article names and in articles when it is common convention (e.g. The Marriage of Figaro. The Magic Flute, The Barber of Seville). This reflects the Wikipedia convention use English in titles when possible. These articles should mention the name in the original language, and a redirect from the original language title should be created. See WikiProject Opera/English names for a list of operas commonly known by English names".] As this indicates, we *do* mention the French name in the opening sentence of the article, and the English name list includes Orpheus in the Underworld. As for Gerda's other suggestions, they should be made on the Talk page of the Article, where they can be considered by everyone interested in the article, not in a TFA discussion; note that these these points were considered during drafting of the article or at Peer Review and FAC. BTW, the opera project most certainly considers operetta to be a kind of opera and, in any case, the expanded version of Orpheus is an "opéra féerie", not an Opéra bouffe, so comic opera is a good term to use in describing the piece in both of its versions. -- Ssilvers (talk) 13:45, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for your thoughts. Practical response: I had this on my watchlist, had one point, and added some others because I had not much time. I am willing to go to the article talk for general points, but not before next week. I don't know when the guidelines mentioned were written. Some project opera guidelines were discussed and reworded yesterday. I did not suggest a move of the article, but believe that the sentence "Orpheus in the Underworld (1858) is a comic opera with music by Jacques Offenbach ..." is not wrong but misleading, making people who don't yet know the work think he wrote it in English, and it being a comic opera comparable to Il barbiere di Siviglia. I would prefer - in the way Kafka's works were consistently named in German even in the TFA blurb in 2013: "Orphée aux enfers (Orpheus in the Underworld) is a 1858 opéra bouffon (comic opera) with music by Jacques Offenbach ...". - TFA day is not around the corner, but we can already think about it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:12, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- It's not misleading if people have never heard of Orphée aux enfers. Many may not even bother to click on the link. "Orpheus in the Underworld" is understandable and more tempting to click on for the recognition factor. If you want to rewrite the MoS to ensure that the English language Wikipedia is populated by works in their original names, rather than by the most commonly known ones, then go start an RfA on the MoS: the TFA blurb is not the place to try and turn accepted practice and our own guidelines on their head. - SchroCat (talk) 15:20, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- So especially for you: "Orpheus in the Underworld (French original: Orphée aux enfers) is a 1858 comic opera (opéra bouffon) with music by Jacques Offenbach ...". How is this? 2019 Salzburg Festival: Orphée aux enfers.Grove same. Critalcal edition same. NYT review same. NYP review same. I notice that the New York reviews don't even bother providing a translation. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:46, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- It's not misleading if people have never heard of Orphée aux enfers. Many may not even bother to click on the link. "Orpheus in the Underworld" is understandable and more tempting to click on for the recognition factor. If you want to rewrite the MoS to ensure that the English language Wikipedia is populated by works in their original names, rather than by the most commonly known ones, then go start an RfA on the MoS: the TFA blurb is not the place to try and turn accepted practice and our own guidelines on their head. - SchroCat (talk) 15:20, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- In the same way, talking about Paris, I'd give Gluck's opera its French name (piped), as the composer wrote it in a later version for Paris: Orphée et Eurydice. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:15, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- And there are hundreds or thousands more that have it as "Orpheus in the Underworld" ([1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], as a very small selection). What's your point? - SchroCat (talk) 15:48, 7 June 2019 (UTC) (Examples added subsequently. - SchroCat (talk) 15:59, 7 June 2019 (UTC))
- My point is that opera is universal, and major houses tend to produce pieces in the original language under the original title, and perhaps our MoS might eventually follow. Just yesterday, I saw a Polish opera in Germany, in Polish of course, and with a Polish title. - I don't know why the comment is under Gluck, who composed in Italian, but wrote a French version for Paris. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:53, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- So what? As I've said above, if you want to rewrite the MoS to have polyglot nonsense, set up an RfC on the point, but what we have here follows the guidelines of the MoS. - SchroCat (talk) 15:59, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- As for Offenbach, it's not polyglot nonsense (whatever that is supposed to mean) but French culture. I assume Dank will find a way to include a bit of that, unless you want to leave it to the likely image, File:Orphée aux enfers poster 1874.jpg. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:43, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- So what? As I've said above, if you want to rewrite the MoS to have polyglot nonsense, set up an RfC on the point, but what we have here follows the guidelines of the MoS. - SchroCat (talk) 15:59, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- My point is that opera is universal, and major houses tend to produce pieces in the original language under the original title, and perhaps our MoS might eventually follow. Just yesterday, I saw a Polish opera in Germany, in Polish of course, and with a Polish title. - I don't know why the comment is under Gluck, who composed in Italian, but wrote a French version for Paris. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:53, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- And there are hundreds or thousands more that have it as "Orpheus in the Underworld" ([1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], as a very small selection). What's your point? - SchroCat (talk) 15:48, 7 June 2019 (UTC) (Examples added subsequently. - SchroCat (talk) 15:59, 7 June 2019 (UTC))
- Thank you for your thoughts. Practical response: I had this on my watchlist, had one point, and added some others because I had not much time. I am willing to go to the article talk for general points, but not before next week. I don't know when the guidelines mentioned were written. Some project opera guidelines were discussed and reworded yesterday. I did not suggest a move of the article, but believe that the sentence "Orpheus in the Underworld (1858) is a comic opera with music by Jacques Offenbach ..." is not wrong but misleading, making people who don't yet know the work think he wrote it in English, and it being a comic opera comparable to Il barbiere di Siviglia. I would prefer - in the way Kafka's works were consistently named in German even in the TFA blurb in 2013: "Orphée aux enfers (Orpheus in the Underworld) is a 1858 opéra bouffon (comic opera) with music by Jacques Offenbach ...". - TFA day is not around the corner, but we can already think about it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:12, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Consistently throughout the Opera project, we use the English translation of opera names when English speakers commonly use those names. Here is the advice at WP:OPERA: "The standard practice is to use English titles of operas for article names and in articles when it is common convention (e.g. The Marriage of Figaro. The Magic Flute, The Barber of Seville). This reflects the Wikipedia convention use English in titles when possible. These articles should mention the name in the original language, and a redirect from the original language title should be created. See WikiProject Opera/English names for a list of operas commonly known by English names".] As this indicates, we *do* mention the French name in the opening sentence of the article, and the English name list includes Orpheus in the Underworld. As for Gerda's other suggestions, they should be made on the Talk page of the Article, where they can be considered by everyone interested in the article, not in a TFA discussion; note that these these points were considered during drafting of the article or at Peer Review and FAC. BTW, the opera project most certainly considers operetta to be a kind of opera and, in any case, the expanded version of Orpheus is an "opéra féerie", not an Opéra bouffe, so comic opera is a good term to use in describing the piece in both of its versions. -- Ssilvers (talk) 13:45, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Good to see so much discussion in a blurb review. Thoughts, Gerda? - Dank (push to talk) 13:07, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- I think "Orpheus in the Underworld" is fine: it's the article title (COMMONNAME and all that). We are talking about the front page blurb, not the article, where the position is made clear. Ditto on "comic opera": the article clarifies the structure and unless we repeat the entire lead as the front page blurb, the distinction does not need to be made at every mention. - SchroCat (talk) 12:57, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- I disagree with pretty much all of the previous contribution, and advise sticking to "comic opera". It is a mug's game trying to put a tag on comic light opera, and Offenbach called the 1858 version an "opéra bouffon" (sic) and the 1874 version an "opéra féerie". What it definitely was not and is not is an opérette - which many non-specialist readers will assume means the same as the English "operetta", which it doesn't. Stick to "comic opera" and you will be clear, correct and will avoid confusing our readers. As to the title, I should personally prefer to use the French version of the title, but WP:COMMONNAME is perfectly clear. I shouldn't object to including the French title in brackets if there's room, but it really isn't important. Tim riley talk 12:43, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
One tweak: "first adopted", near the end of the blurb, should be "adopted later in the 19th century". -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:00, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Could do without the comma in "It was Offenbach's first full-length opera, and remains the one that is most often performed." Jmar67 (talk) 20:03, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
Thanks everyone. Tim, your change would take us up to 1059 characters ... 1025 is the max. (But we can do it if people agree to cut something.) Ssilvers and Jmar: sure, I've got no objection. Gerda: there doesn't seem to be support for your requests so far, but I typically watch these blurb reviews for a week, so hang in there. SchroCat, do you have any requests? - Dank (push to talk) 22:51, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
- Everyone: any objections to adding (Orphée aux enfers, 1858) after the English name? - Dank (push to talk) 13:30, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
- I can only echo Tim's comment above: "I shouldn't object to including the French title in brackets if there's room, but it really isn't important." If we don't mind cluttering the blurb a little, and if it will bring peace to your talk page, then I'll demur. - SchroCat (talk) 14:21, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks. 1024 characters now, cutting it close! Anything else, anyone? - Dank (push to talk) 11:33, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
- I can only echo Tim's comment above: "I shouldn't object to including the French title in brackets if there's room, but it really isn't important." If we don't mind cluttering the blurb a little, and if it will bring peace to your talk page, then I'll demur. - SchroCat (talk) 14:21, 8 June 2019 (UTC)