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Inclusion of Vice Presidential Candidates in the United States Presidential elections before the 12th Amendment

I recently added "Vice Presidential" candidates in the infoboxes for the US Presidential Elections between 1788-1800. This was due to:

A: All candidates for either offices received the exact same electoral votes, with no distinction being made for either office, making them all legally equal contenders for the office.

B: In both 1796 and 1800 a VP candidate was viewed as a potential Presidential option by the electors (therefore the VPs didn't really play in de-facto submission to the "top of the (extremely vague and loosely defined) ticket", as was the case with Pickney in the former election being supported by Hamilton as a candidate to be president, and (less definitively) Aaron Burr's (potential) run at the Presidency.

C: Specifically in the case of 1800, the infobox does a poor job conveying why a contingent election was needed, showing a Jefferson and Burr tie in the infobox (reflecting the way the Electoral College truly worked at the time) would make it easily apparent why the contingent election was needed to viewers who only glance at the page.

D: Excluding the "Vice Presidential" candidates from the infobox attempts to mold these first four elections as working the exact same as modern ones, which is objectively not the case.

E: Some State pages (for example: the 1788 election in Virginia) shows the election with Vice Presidential contenders in line with my edits.

For these reasons I am reverting the past reversion by @Gelid Lagopus and seeking that further discussion on this topic take place here.

Thanks, Zed381 Zed3811 (talk) 04:21, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I reverted those un-discussed changes. The 1788, 1792, 1796 & 1800 US presidential election pages' infoboxes have been stable for quite some time. I disagree with adding candidates who got elected vice president. GoodDay (talk) 04:58, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
I disagree with the notions of maintaining the pages' "stability" as a reason to avoid much needed changes to the format. The first four elections, in their current state, are not only incredibly over simplified but do not reflect the way elections at that time worked due a the modern view of US Presidential Elections being imposed on them.
Thnaks, Zed381 Zed3811 (talk) 05:07, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
We disagree then, as I still believe candidates who got elected veep, shouldn't be in the infoboxes. GoodDay (talk) 05:50, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
No reasoning for keeping the article the way it was (in an objectively subpar state) had been given, just WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT Zed3811 (talk) 15:10, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
AGAIN, we shouldn't have candidates listed in the infobox, who were elected vice president, as presidential candidates. GoodDay (talk) 15:28, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
So why is Thomas Jefferson included in the 1796, this is completely arbitrary, there was legally no difference between the Presidential and Vice Presidential election, they were all competing in the same race. Zed3811 (talk) 16:37, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
Jefferson was the designated presidential candidate of his party. GoodDay (talk) 16:53, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
Yet the endorsement of the party had no actual effect on the way election worked, Adams "led the federalist ticket" yet there was a serious campaign to elect Pickney the "VP candidate" as President, the pre 12th amendment notions of "VP Candidate" were vague and loosely defined enough that it makes no sense to exclude candidates considered to be "running for the Vice Presidency" (a race that didn't legally exist). Zed3811 (talk) 18:42, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
I think the "Vice Presidential" candidates should be included in the infobox, even when the congressional nominating causes specifically designated Burr and Pinckney as the junior partners of the ticket. There was no separate vice-presidential election at the time, as separate presidential and vice-presidential balloting didn't begin until 1804. All votes were cast for the presidential election, with the runner-up in that presidential balloting becoming vice president. This system meant that any "Vice Presidential" candidate could potentially become president if they received enough electoral votes, and made it possible for the executive roles to be split between members from different tickets. This is why a contingency election was needed in 1800, as Jefferson and Burr tied in the presidential balloting (mainly due to the incompetence of the Democratic-Republicans) Wowzers122 (talk) 13:17, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
I think this proposal makes sense, but I'm afraid of making the infoboxes too confusing. I don't have a strong opinion on this either way, I think it all depends on how the infobox looks visually and whether it is too busy that should determine whether or not this change is implemented. BootsED (talk) 15:50, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
What are your thoughts on the info boxes that I created for including them, I agree they probably could be better and less confusing.
Perhaps by explaining the system a little more indepth at the top?
i.e. "132 members of the electoral college with 264 total votes
67 electoral votes needed to win" Zed3811 (talk) 16:36, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

@BootsED, Aquillion, Muboshgu, Prcc27, HAL333, Slatersteven, and Bob K31416:, you input would be appreciated. GoodDay (talk) 15:36, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Well for the same reason as Wowzer I say they should not be, as they weren't in fact separate candidates, but rather candidates for the office of president. Slatersteven (talk) 15:40, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
This isn't entirely accurate, In 1796 for example there was a serious effort to install Pickney as president through the works of prominent figures such as Alexander Hamilton, since there wasn't really any true "campaigning" at the time, this pretty amounted to a presidential campaign. Zed3811 (talk) 16:33, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
I support the proposed changes. The “second vote” was a de facto vote for vice president, but was a de jure vote for president. However, we need a footnote to explain the nuances so that our readers understand that the procedure used to be that the runner-up was elected vice-president. Prcc27 (talk) 20:25, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
@Slatersteven: Could you please clarify your comment? Wowzers122 seems to support the changes, but your comment seems to be against the change, even though you said your view is in line with Wowzers122. Prcc27 (talk) 00:46, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
Yes I am against the change, but using the same reasons, that they were in fact, presidential candidates. Slatersteven (talk) 11:26, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
  • For the curious, this is what the proposal looks like (vs. this current version.) I can understand where it is coming from, but if we're talking about that specific layout, I feel that it makes the infobox too confusing; few readers are going to understand the full context of how early US elections worked and the infobox can't really explain it, so at a glance it makes it look like eg. Jefferson was running against Burr, which is... sort of true but mostly not, not in the sense that a modern reader would understand it. It's simply not possible for an infobox to contain every possible detail about every election for president in a system that has changed its rules over time. I'm not averse to an alternative layout that conveys this in a less confusing manner but I'm not sure what it would look like. (One thing I'd suggest is avoiding putting the VP's pictures there, so there's no at-a-glance confusion with how we structure modern elections.) --Aquillion (talk) 02:15, 27 October 2024 (UTC)
    I agree an new layout could be made that's less confusion, Id be interested in seeing how a version where your proposal is put in place would look. Zed3811 (talk) 02:21, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Interesting, that suddenly we have a new editor restoring or making such changes to the infoboxes, without discussing it. GoodDay (talk) 23:11, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

what does that have to do with anything. Zed3811 (talk) 23:38, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

A compromise. For 1796 & 1800 elections, put the veep election bit into a footnote, next to the candidate. That way, it won't take up much space in the infobox & still give the fate of the (pre-12th amendment) presidential candidate runner-up. GoodDay (talk) 16:21, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@GoodDay: Can you stop reverting the infobox to your preferred version? The "(elected Vice President)" bit under Jefferson in the 1796 article has been in the infobox for years and there has not been a consensus here to remove it. Wowzers122 (talk) 19:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@Wowzers122: I've opened an RFC, concerning the 1796 election page. GoodDay (talk) 20:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Nomination of Reactions to the 2019 Conservative Party leadership election for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Reactions to the 2019 Conservative Party leadership election is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Reactions to the 2019 Conservative Party leadership election until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Unknown Temptation (talk) 21:45, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Gun Control (Firearms Legislation) Victorian (Australia) State Elections 1999

Electorate of Geelong changed from Government to Opposition by only 16 votes. This change was pivotal to the numbers of seats for change or survival of government. The small margin of votes made a particular electoral demographic pivotal for win or lose. In political terms various pressure groups or 'lobbies' cancel each other's influence in broad political terms. In this election, a particular and measurable demographic had been imposed with strong cause to chance electoral allegiance, recreational shooters and firearm owners (the nasty 'Gun Lobby'). The Port Arthur multi murder atrocity had provided occasion for the Australian Government to impose new conditions which required State Legislation for implementation. These conditions were and are still controversial but although implemented about 1996 were beginning to bite by 1999. There were other government electoral losses around the State that could be written off to 'other issues or minor parties' but if half of those 16 votes in Geelong had voted different - the government would have survived. 8 or 9 voters were pivotal and measurable in demonstrating the displeasure of a large demographic. 101.182.7.227 (talk) 04:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Nomination of 2028 United States presidential election for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article 2028 United States presidential election is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2028 United States presidential election (3rd nomination) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Left guide (talk) 07:03, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Should we show successors in infobox of predecessor, before they take office.

Recently @Wellington Bay: has brought forward the argument that we should show the successors in the infoboxes of their predecessors, before they take office. A few years ago, we had an RFC on this (which I'm trying to find), which concluded we not show them. So, should this method be revisited? GoodDay (talk) 17:27, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

No. The election could be overturned, the winning candidate could die, or civil war could break out and the entire government could fall, before the winner can take office. Jc3s5h (talk) 17:31, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
What about non-elected positions? GoodDay (talk) 17:32, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Here's the RFC-in-question. Perhaps @Mandruss: should be notified. GoodDay (talk) 17:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. Yes, the issue has been well settled by RfC, and there are no new arguments that I can see. That should be the end of this discussion. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:57, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
Except that there are. The prior discussion considered only American politics, while not taking on board any consideration of the fact that political systems work differently in different places.
For instance, while the American system has a turnover time of a couple of months between election day and the actual inauguration or installation of the new holder of a political position, the transition in a Westminster system is completed in a matter of hours or days, depending on the country and the role. And the whole thing hinged on the turning on or off of the "incumbent" flag in the outgoing officeholder's infobox — in the American system, an outgoing officeholder is always still an incumbent holder of their office until the later date. But in a Westminster system, an outgoing MP or MLA is not still an incumbent MP or MLA for any temporary period after the election, so the "incumbent" flag is not applicable to the non-returning MP or MLA for even one further minute, and thus no consideration needs to be given to avoiding its turn-off at all.
A defeated or retiring member of the House of Commons of Canada or the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, for example, is not still an "incumbent" MP or MLA for any length of time after the election — their term in fact ceases with the issuance of the writ that started the election they retired or were defeated in, so the seat is vacant for the duration of the election campaign, and the newly elected MP or MLA is legally the new incumbent as soon as they've been declared elected, even if they haven't officially completed all of the formalities of the process yet. But, for example, people who don't understand how this works frequently make incorrect changes to the dates — I'm just now noticing that an American editor with no understanding of Canadian politics systematically went through all of the MLAs who were newly elected in the 2024 New Brunswick general election a few weeks ago changing their start dates from the correct "October 21" to the incorrect "November 2" on the basis of a source that was about the swearing-in of the premier and cabinet. But the "inauguration" of the new executive council isn't the same thing as the basic installation of the membership of the legislature — Luke Randall didn't become a member of the cabinet until he was sworn in as a member of the cabinet on November 2, but he did become a member of the legislature as of October 21. But since an editor who doesn't understand how Westminster politics works went and changed the start date of his and all of his other newly elected colleagues' service in the legislature to November 2 (also including changing "predecessor=" to "succeeding=" so that they wouldn't be flagged as incumbents at all), I now have to go through over a dozen articles to correct them (not least because it's now past November 2 yet they still aren't actually displaying the incumbent flag due to the predecessor→succeeding flip), which is a far, far bigger burden of followup work than I should have to undertake.
The reasons given in the discussion also largely don't wash.
  1. The person could possibly decline their election, or die, or otherwise not actually take the office for some other reason? Sure, that's possible, but it's rare, and it's much more likely to not happen than it is to happen — and in the event that it does happen, that's a change easily dealt with when we get there, not a difficult enough thing to fix that a complete ban on ever placing the presumed successor's name in their predecessor's infobox would be a logical solution to that profoundly rare problem. If one member-elect dies or disclaims their seat without taking the office, while 99 members-elect become full members without incident, then you've created excess work for the 99 non-exceptions just because of the possibility of the one exception, when the one exception could easily have been dealt with in other, much simpler ways that didn't unnecessarily complicate things for the 99 non-exceptions.
  2. It's a burden to have to go through the articles removing the "(elect)" flag after the replacements have officially assumed the office? Not nearly as much of a burden as going through the same articles having to add the successors' names at a later date in the first place, and not nearly as much of a burden as having to go through a couple dozen articles flipping succeeding back to predecessor because the start date was changed incorrectly by an editor who didn't know what they were doing. That's a much, much worse burden. This is a situation where I do get to play the "my problem is bigger than your problem" card — the fustercluck I now have to fix in New Brunswick because somebody did outright wrong things is a far bigger and far worse imposition on my time than removing "(elect)" from a few infoboxes later on has ever been on anybody else's.
Different countries' political systems work different ways, so this can't be a one-size-fits-all situation. Each country needs to have its own standards, based on its own circumstances and determined by editors with the most expertise in how their own country's political system works and what their own country's resulting needs are. It's fine for the US, where there's a two-month transition period and the outgoing rep is still the incumbent in the meantime — but it doesn't work in a country where the transition period is measured in hours or days and the outgoing MP isn't still an "incumbent" in the meantime. Bearcat (talk) 12:04, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
Also worth noting the last sentence at Template:Infobox officeholder#Usage. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:27, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

See related discussion, concerning parlimentary opposition leaders, taking place. GoodDay (talk) 18:24, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@Bearcat: please bring your arguments 'here'. GoodDay (talk) 02:05, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't take orders from you, dear. Bearcat (talk) 02:09, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
You're better than that. GoodDay (talk) 02:13, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
So are you. Bearcat (talk) 02:15, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
You want the last word (or insult)? go ahead. GoodDay (talk) 02:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
Since I said nothing wrong in the first place that anybody would need to be "better" than, the first insult here was thrown by you, and I never have any responsibility to ever let any insult thrown at me go unresponded to. And since "you want the last word?" is always a passive-aggressive way of trying to shut the other person up so that your word stands as the "last word", and never a genuinely productive contribution to any discussion, that's also not a thing I have a responsibility to take. Bearcat (talk) 12:05, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

We may be having an RFC take place concerning Canadian officeholders in general & opposition leaders in particular. I'll notify all previous RFC participants of the new RFC, when/where it opens. GoodDay (talk) 16:03, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

  • My sense is generally no. My premise is that it creates confusion if the incumbent is still holding the office but the page suggests someone else is the current office holder. That said, some countries have different election systems - that once the election is called, the individual ceases to hold office. That said, in situations where the individual holds office from the certification of the election, we should be certain when the election is certified, rather than the moment the media "calls" a race. --Enos733 (talk) 17:02, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
  • I think WP:CBALL rules apply. If we are reasonably confident (based on WP:RS) that the successor will be the successor, we should show them as the successor, even if they have not yet taken office. (Someone/thing can be the known successor before succeeding.) If there is realistic uncertainty about who the successor is, we don't show it. That would be in keeping with standard Wikipedia approaches. We shouldn't be applying specific US election practices everywhere, nor do we need complex WP:LOCALCONSENSUSes to arise. Enos733's argument that we should wait until the election is certified, rather than the moment the media "calls" a race contradicts Wikipedia policy on WP:RS and WP:PRIMARY because Wikipedia very explicitly favours the media (secondary sources) over certification (primary source). TLDR: we have Wikipedia rules for how to handle future events that we can already use. Bondegezou (talk) 20:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
To clarify. This isn't a dispute over who a successor is. Merely whether or not it's necessary to show them in their predecessor's infobox, before they take office. GoodDay (talk) 20:24, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
If we know who they are, we should show them. They are the successor whether or not they have yet taken office. Bondegezou (talk) 11:34, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
To me, and to the previous RFC, the infobox ought to be correct for readers - an incumbent should be seen as the incumbent, not of having a successor (especially if there are still months of their term). - Enos733 (talk) 22:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
The infobox should be correct for readers: it is correct that one person can be the incumbent while another person is the known successor. Bondegezou (talk) 13:52, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
But they're not the successor, yet. GoodDay (talk) 17:33, 7 November 2024 (UTC)
In the American system, sure. In lots of other systems, the incumbent has already left office, and the successor is already the new incumbent, the moment the successor's identity is known at all. Bearcat (talk) 18:48, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

If anybody wants to re-open the entire topic, for whatever reason? It's up to them. As for me? I'm merely carrying out (as best as I can) the aforementioned RFC's consensus. GoodDay (talk) 17:52, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

US Presidential election pages, intros

See this discussion, concerning bolding in intros of US presidential election pages. GoodDay (talk) 13:31, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

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