Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anime and manga/Hentai

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Creation of the Wikiproject[edit]

The Wikiproject has officially started, currently I am trying to get all the categories and the banner set up and working, assessments and such will follow, but this is really complicated for me. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:16, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Jiburiru:_The_Devil_Angel[edit]

First link is 404. Here is the link to the archive. http://web.archive.org/web/20080803014128/www.bishojyogameaward.org/2008/ranking.asp Though this is helpful as well. [1] Though Neko magic had some interesting.. figure related postings. [2] [3] Not to many RS in english. Japanese coverage seems only real option. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:58, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Tagging[edit]

Mass reverting of our tags for the Yaoi genre, including Yaoi itself was carried out by Juhachi and Kaze-kun. While I place the tags as they fell under the recursive Hentai category, I did not place all files under our scope. This leads me to two issues, the Wikiproject is not under WP:ANIME's control, we are our own project. And while the matter falls under WP:PROJGUIDE#OWN. Works like Cut (manga) are under the Yaoi category but is Heavenly Body under our scope? Japanese yaoi is not American yaoi, the same way that English use of hentai is not the Japanese use of hentai. I see one of two things. A categorization redefining to end the problem for good, or we take anything labeled Yaoi and Yuri publications due to the complexity in discussing whether or not these romances contain explicit content. Ones containing explicit content are shrink wrapped in plastic, but may not contain the 18+ sticker if it is not overly graphic. Though to be fair even such sites as the Comic book bin define Yaoi as: "Yaoi manga is a subset of boys’ love manga (BL) and features explicit depictions of sex between male characters." as on their Punch Up! review. [[4] And while the wiki doesn't point to every single one, Blood Honey is explicit and Juhachi removed its tag. CBB's stance? Explicit, its on the cover.[5] ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:17, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

The reason I mass reverted it is based on the issues I brought up before on your talk page. Calling all yaoi or yuri works hentai is, quite honestly, offensive. It would be as if you mass-tagged all series featuring heterosexual love as hentai/adult/explicit. There are plenty of non-adult/non-hentai/non-explict yaoi and yuri series out there, so your mass-tagging of both of those genres was largely in error, so I merely corrected it. Forgot for a second that I work largely on articles under WP:ANIME. I merely un-tagged articles that weren't sexually explicit that you tagged as hentai. Yes, I admit there might have been some mistakes on me mass-reverting them, but there are many fewer yaoi/yuri works that are explicit that are on Wikipedia than not. If you want to retag any of those articles, show with reliable sources that they are explicit. You are right that yaoi means different things whether you're in Japan or America, so it doesn't necessarily mean its explicit if it's called yaoi. Is Blood Honey considered adult material in Japan? Or is this just another example of America overreacting and caving to homophobic groups wanting to label homosexual romance as "too mature for our innocent children"?-- 21:21, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
Hard to answer that question because 夜桜 左京 is relatively unknown. Her biggest work is probably Blood Honey. Though she does have a few other works, [6] The website has not had updates since around 2011, but Wikipedia is being dramatic here because the name in Japanese is Blood Honey. Not this ブラッド ハニー Buraddo Hanī matter. As she is circle level I doubt there is much I can find about what the 'Japanese' think, because the only real success was the American release to which it was shrink wrapped and labeled as explicit as I pointed out above. I'll deal with the tagging issue after this RFC thing is dropped. WP:COUNCIL/G for tagging aside, the reason want to be independent is not to remove your tags or split the project, its so I can keep things organized and keep explicit posting off WP:ANIME. Censored pictures or not, I don't want to shock any readers who click links like the ones above. I don't want to fight and I don't want to cause drama, the reasons to move this off WP:ANIME were numerous and with the matter between Lucia Black, Ryulong and me wouldn't help either. I don't want to destroy the talk page with rants and raving, but I feel strongly about this. We are related Wikiprojects and we cover that minority that WP:ANIME doesn't want to cover, or mention as it seems. We exist to counter the systematic bias and cover the controversial and dirty details of Anime and manga's true past that is linked to well... smut. Its part of many famous mangaka's careers, even Yotsuba's creator Kiyohiko Azuma started with hentai. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:46, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
Oh and additional note, I did find some people complaining there was no actual sex in the book. Confused American publishers... why label it yaoi? Brings up the matter of proper categorization 'is it yaoi?' or 'sexy yaoi'? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:47, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
You don't have to split Category:Yaoi up for whether it's explicit or not. Just tag explicit series with Category:Hentai anime and manga. Isn't that why it's there?-- 07:50, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
What about ecchi like Puni Puni Poemy? Or Green Green (anime)? Even if the American release is censored? I cannot devote much time to dealing with this tagging issue for now, I have a lot on my plate and I am sorry, but I have no intention of repeating what happened with Lucia Black over GITS. The entire coverage of the topics on Wikipedia is terrible and I do not want to argue over this while you are trying to force a merge. We need to be a full wikiproject and a taskforce cannot cover it for the reasons I listed at the RFC, on thing at a time please. I have not replaced the tags and I maybe I'll ask Koavf for his insights upon categories, he works in that area. No one should mess with categories as any trivial matter, because it is disruptive and has wide effects. Let's hold off for now. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:07, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
That's what Category:Ecchi anime and manga is for. And Green Green (anime) should be merged into Green Green (visual novel).-- 21:03, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
I do not disagree with that. Perhaps you could share your thoughts on the explicit material markers of manga and anime. 18+ or explicit warning and wrapped in plastic is the commonly held view by American law, while depictions of sex is part of the American definition for hentai, yaoi and yuri are reversals of their Japanese stance. Now Shotacon and Lolicon are reversed again. Overall, the English and Japanese communities cannot agree and do not identify as such. While I'd prefer to focus on the western scope of hentai and ecchi, but not even publishers are accurate and much if not all our categories are totally shot over this. "Etchi" not "Ecchi" was the original term afterall. As much as I disagree with the actions to crush and compel this project to be subservient even in the face of technological requirements for separation... I'd like to work as closely as possible fixing the massive sprawling and underserved articles that currently populate Wikipedia. I'd like for WP:ANIME people to consider us a form of taskforce, but the distinction is like Hong Kong/Mainland China, it is not a ROC/PRC split. The category issue as seen thus far is basically due to the lack of coverage and definition. I do not want to open a RFC about the scope and definition of the form before the basic genres reach GA or FA status, but the genre issue needs to be hammered out by experts or very well informed editors. I plan to get Hentai to FA first, but I'd like some input about how to resolve this genre issue. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:53, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
A series does not necessarily have to depict sex for it to be considered adult/mature or wrapped in plastic in America. It just has to have enough "objectionable content" to warrant such a treatment. However, what is considered objectionable is subjective, and Japan generally is very lax when it comes to content as long as full on sex or full nudity is not depicted. Yaoi and yuri can both be concepts in hentai, same as shotacon and lolicon, but by the same token, not all yaoi or yuri series feature hentai or ecchi content, and the same goes for shotacon and lolicon (even if a majority of them might). It's easier just to deal with the categorization on a case-by-case basis, instead of tagging all yaoi/yuri/shota/loli anime/manga articles under this project (though the last two might be more clear-cut).-- 01:27, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

RFC on WikiProject Hentai[edit]

NOTE, At WT:WikiProject Anime and manga, there is an RFC concerning the fate of WP:WikiProject Hentai -- 65.94.76.126 (talk) 07:25, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:08, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Project banner image[edit]

At the moment the project banner image is of the text 変態 (hentai), but I don't think this is the best choice. In Japanese it means "pervert", and isn't used to refer to adult anime and manga. The word for adult manga is 成人向け漫画 (seijin muke manga) and the word for adult anime is アダルトアニメ (adaruto anime). I can see why you've gone with the kanji rather than with a more, ahem, graphical representation of the genre, but I still think there must be a better choice. Perhaps File:Wikipe tan wearing a bikini by Kasuga39.svg? — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 08:47, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Oh that's a great idea! Thanks, I'll let this sit for a bit and switch it if its good, we are still so new that nothing should be set in stone. Thank you very much fort he idea. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:19, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I have a couple of alternatives you can choose from.

This was Mr. Stradivarius' suggestion There will be an "R-18" or "XXX" image on the sign. I'll edit the sign later

  • That's 2 images that I can find to be suitable, but if there's anything else please do say so. --(B)~(ー.ー)~(Z) (talk) 04:11, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
Exploitable sign... Would be a perfect addition to the front, no? WP:HENTAI Needs your help! Tinker with it some more, I like these ideas! ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:20, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
I am now working on the sign. But I'm gonna need a moment as I can be busy in life. In the meanwhile, Spread the Word hehe. --(B)~(ー.ー)~(Z) (talk) 13:43, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
You should ask Kasuga93 about making a new -tan figure, since there were objections before about using Wikipe-tan for other uses -- 65.94.76.126 (talk) 06:03, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
Yep, it's probably not a good idea to make any Wikipe-tan images that are any more explicit than the bikini one, given that some images of her in gothic lolita style were previously deleted by Jimbo. See the last bullet point of Wikipedia:Pornography#Jimbo Wales on obscenity for the details. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 09:21, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

As much as I love Wikipe-tan I have to sadly agree per above, seeing wikipe-tan is a mascot she can not be used in anything obscene. There have been a-lot of editors in the past that have tried to delete wikipe-tan from wikipedia because of this. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:42, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

So is that, use some form of the images here or avoid her altogether? I'd still like the bikini one as part of the welcome page, maybe with a tako on the other side. But I am not great at graphic design or placement. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:43, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
I'll be done with Wikipe-tan's signboard pose tomorrow. Please hold your desires until then, tee hee. --(B)~(ー.ー)~(Z) (talk) 20:58, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Alright. I'm going to be trying to grab some additional academic works for the resource board later, I've been a bit busy, but I think it is fair to say that with all the material publications, I've got some insight in what works to bring up as RSes. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 23:53, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Article quality/importance table[edit]

I've gotten the article quality and importance table working, hurray. This table is more then just mere inspection, by clicking on any subsection you can see the the articles and how they stack up, Hentai's current score is 1511, but many 0 score articles exist and those need to be improved a lot. The score is quite a bit arbitrary, but for now we have a good basis for figuring out which ones need to be improved and which ones can hold off for a bit longer. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:51, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

All articles have been assessed. While the list is short due to the earlier tagging issue, the uncreated list of articles climbs into the thousands. Though we now have direction for this Wikiproject and I will hopefully get the watchlist functions working soon. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:50, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Article watchlist[edit]

I have not gotten the watchlist working for the project yet, I hope to do in the coming days. A major concern has been the tag issue. With Shotacon and Lolicon being removed from our list despite being major sub-genres of hentai. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:51, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Project name[edit]

Just noticed that while this group's title is "WikiProject Hentai" its scope includes ecchi as well. Considering the different meanings of the two words, wouldn't it be more appropriate to change the title to "WikiProject Hentai and ecchi"? Despite "Many ecchi works [being] described as hentai by English users", I don't think an encyclopedic group should do that as well. Xfansd (talk) 05:15, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

The focus is on the American definition of Hentai, because there is no genre designation in Japan. Hentai is equated to perverted sexual acts in Japan, but had broad use as any erotic depictions in the west. In Japan, etchi/ecchi indicates 'normal sex', Futari Ecchi is quite literal in its definition as Ecchi, but is considered hentai internationally, though it is not familiar to Americans, it has a French version which has been commented on and reviewed as part of the whole 'genre' by sexologists for its sexual concepts and instructional depictions. The project is intent on focusing on sexually explicit works, the definition in the West and Japan do not agree at all. So to summarize, etchi/ecchi and hentai are very different portrayals of explicit sexual content in Japan whereas any explicit sexual content is liable to be tagged as hentai in the west. The term's use is still evolving, but the issue covers other terms as well, including yaoi and yuri, and this issue is only compounded by publishers pushing new definitions for lack of a better or more descriptive Japanese term, lumping sexual preference regardless of explicit material as such. Even retailers push this problem further. My backing for 18+ works being covered is sorta up in the air because silly American publishers push innuendo and content to 18+ without one single sex scene. It makes it really frustrating to figure out coverage because the terms are apples and oranges. I want to compare and cover like things, but I'm considering just covering all works which have 18+ tags. And if we do that then even brief sex scenes or content can push it to that limit. The Ghost in the Shell manga was originally 18+ because of the sex scenes and nudity and content. Despite not being classified as hentai or etchi on either side. So the problem goes to the root of the cultural identification of these terms. Its not an easy issue and either way, it will be a contested issue. The problem is not the title, its the definition, as updating the definition to include 'ecchi' would be equally wrong because what defines as ecchi in America is not even classified as ecchi in Japan. I rather take the broad American definition and avoid being doubly wrong on either side of the fence. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:07, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
You say you're using the western definitions, but then say "ecchi and hentai are very different portrayals of explicit sexual content". According to the hentai article, the Oxford Dictionary defines hentai as "sexually explicit images and plots" and ecchi is considered "milder than hentai", with the ecchi article saying "[ecchi is] used in Western culture to divide between pornography (hentai) and playful usage of sexualized imagery. Works considered as ecchi do not show any sexual intercourse or primary sexual characteristics." It seems to me that this clearly shows they are separate terms by western definitions; only hentai series are explicit, while those that are not but are sexually-oriented can be considered ecchi. I'll also add that these are the definitions that I always see used. Simply put, an ecchi series is not the same as a hentai series. This project's page opens with making the distinction "to create, expand, improve, and standardize hentai and ecchi-related articles", why do that unless they are two different things? If they are two different things, why would you name the project after just one of them? I'm not suggesting that the project not cover both, I agree that it should, but just change the title to use the terms of the two different subjects that it covers, instead of just one of them.
I really don't see how you would even consider including every series "rated 18+", unless it mostly focuses on sex. As you said things are rated 18+ for a lot of different reasons, such as violence and excessive "bad" language, if it only includes brief sex content than it in no way is hentai or ecchi. A sci-fi series having a single sex scene does not make it hentai or ecchi by any definition, therefore it is not in the scope of a group focusing on those subjects. Xfansd (talk) 01:44, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
Your first point above is the American definition of hentai, the Japanese definition includes sex in ecchi, but excludes BDSM, tentacles and so on. Because of the ambiguous nature of the terms I just umbrella-ed it. Whether or not Futari Ecchi is hentai or ecchi is irrelevant because it is under our scope either way. While I don't like it to be confusing, this Wikiproject is not an American-only project and I'm not going to restrict things because some American publishers have pushed different definitions on consumers. Ecchi works contain sex. Would you be happy if I move it to just plain 'ero' works as that gets more media coverage? Though H (literally pronounced etchi/ecchi) is also used frequently bringing us back to hentai and ecchi. The 18+ comment I made was supposed to be more of an example of labeling and terminology issue then a blanket 'we cover it' matter. The reason being that yaoi and yuri by definition are explicit except outside of Japan and their is no requirement of any sex to be labeled under it. Renaming the project could cause some major issues as well at this point, namely redoing everything from the ground up. I guess I could reword the scope page to be more clear... any suggestions? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 03:56, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
While I'm not saying you necessarily have to change the name of the project to include the word ecchi, it might deter some future complications. Namely, there are various ecchi series out there, like Sora no Otoshimono, To Love Ru, Sekirei, etc. which anyone versed in anime/manga would quickly see as ecchi, but wouldn't call it hentai. Having this project's banner on those articles because they have ecchi content works fine, but if someone doesn't take the time to come to this page and read that the scope of this project includes ecchi works, then the talk page banner may be removed on the grounds that "this series isn't hentai".-- 06:04, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
You seem to be contradicting yourself. In your first comment you said "The focus is on the American definition of Hentai", now you are rebutting my comment by saying I only referred to the American definition. Regardless, I quoted the Oxford Dictionary definition, which is British, so what I said was not only "the American definition" but the general Western use. The hentai and ecchi articles also use the term "Western" to describe the defs that I said, and never single out America. This is not an "American-only project", but it is on the English-speaking Wiki and as such we should use the Western definitions. Simply re-writing the scope will not fix the issue, aside from the piece "many ecchi works are described as hentai by English users" which as I explained is not the case. Although all that is off-topic because as you said whichever def is used is irrelevant, it is really only the title I'm concerned about. By only having hentai in the title it suggests/implies that it is the larger format/genre/term and deems that all ecchi series part of this project are hentai, while they may be interchangeable in Japan most English-speaking users don't use the terms that way. I think it is the "umbrella-ing" under hentai and its subsequent implication that is wrong. As far as "ero" goes, I don't think I can really comment. Aside from knowing it is used in Japan, I have no experience with the term. So I still think "WikiProject Hentai and ecchi" is better, but the ero suggestion got me thinking, is "WikiProject: Erotic anime and manga" too radical a change? While there can be disagreements on what definition of hentai and ecchi to use, I don't think anyone can argue that either is not erotic and this would cover all the same stuff, it would just eliminate the "umbrella-ing". (I had a lot more written as first, but Juhachi caused an "edit conflict" with mine and I think he explained most of what I think better. :p) Xfansd (talk) 06:33, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Juhachi's assessment as well. The obvious thing would be to redo the custom banner to include ecchi in the list, I used the default template and it automatically uses the singular hentai link. If we go change it to 'ero' works, I still see problems. I really intended this to be a taskforce of ANIME at the beginning, but we would lose our categorization, importance system, and the article watch system and complicate navigation and focus. Also, the talk page banner which allows these to be noted will also have to be removed further complicating two of the key points above. The content and works we cover are also not suitable for underage viewers, I like keeping them separated as much as possible. I want this to be considered a task force, but remain independent. WP:ANIME is going through a lot of conflict right now, the issues have scattered my attention enough that I haven't been able to work on aspects of these topics. If we include ecchi works in our title, a lot of works like Love Hina and Negima will get included despite not making the mark, To Love-ru pushes it further yes, but I see no resolution because of the definition differences held by editors. So what do you two want to do? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:42, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, a long time ago WP:VG used to be called WikiProject Computer and video games, but the computer was eventually dropped, even though there might be a clear distinction between computer games and video games. However, everyone could agree that a computer game is, in the end, just another form of video game, so it was dropped from the title. Ecchi is different enough (for English readers) from hentai that I think a clear distinction should be shown. If a new user sees "WikiProject Hentai", he/she is likely to think that this project just deals with adult/sexually-explicit works that you'd expect to be labeled hentai. But if it's called "WikiProject Hentai and ecchi", then the user would be likely to assume the project deals with anything sexual in nature that has to do with anime/manga, from "softcore" ecchi all the way to "hardcore" hentai. So I would agree with Xfansd that a title change would be beneficial.-- 20:34, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
Then I guess we would have to include all ecchi works of all types. Hmm.. anyone know what it would entail to move everything over? I don't want to move it around monthly, but I do see your point. And if we are going to commit to this move, we need to redefine the scope on some level. I'm not the best at wording such things out. Any suggestions? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:10, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
Unfortunately I don't think I can be of help with the actual act of changing things, I have absolutely no experience with what entails setting up a WikiProject or the pros and cons of being a taskforce. However, the content covered being "not suitable for underage viewers" is not something you should be concerned about at all. That is totally a personal moral opinion, and obviously everyone has a different belief on what is suitable for what age. As far as re-writing the scope, it is not great, but I think it gets the point across. Just remove the "Why include ecchi? Hentai is not a genre in Japan, many ecchi works are described as hentai by English users." piece, I don't think you should have to try and justify including ecchi. If you want you can briefly explain hentai, ecchi and eroge so people can understand the scope without reading their articles. Or provide brief quotes of their definitions from their articles, but that might bring back the "different def" discussion which we might want to refrain from. Or are you talking about where to draw the line on what "level of ecchi" a series has to be to be included? I personally would only deem a work an ecchi one if it has frequent ecchi scenes, like the scope already says it doesn't cover "works with incidental or minor depictions of nudity or sexuality, such as Dragon Ball". I don't think there are any urgent problems with the project page, it is still new so other editors will probably come along and spot some minor things to fix as they have a fresh view on it. Xfansd (talk) 19:23, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
It wouldn't be very hard to move everything over. First move the project page to Wikipedia:WikiProject Hentai and ecchi and other project pages like Wikipedia:WikiProject Hentai/Article grading, then move {{WikiProject Hentai}} to {{WikiProject Hentai and ecchi}}; you don't have to worry about updating the template links, since a moved template will still operate under the previous name. Finally, take all the project categories to WP:CFDS and follow the directions.-- 20:36, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Break[edit]

Okay, so I won't concern myself with the age matter. I'm sorry, but I have been distracted by Lucia's little deletion campaign which is pulling me away from other things. Dark Shell and Él (visual novel) were PRODed by Knowledgekid87 and I've had to spend some time improving them. The Japanese language is beyond me still, so I can't communicate or grab RSes easily in it, doesn't help that I have to use archives to grab staff credits and such. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 14:35, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Cleanup listing[edit]

Thanks to Svick for adding us to the Cleanup listing project. I've gone through and found archive links for the dead links for the project. Hopefully, we will reduce these issues by 20% next month. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:04, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

A good amount of work has been done. Thanks to the editors for assisting. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 21:09, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

In the News[edit]

In the signpost Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2013-05-27/In_the_media, there is an article which links to Kotaku, run by Gawker which is worth the read.[7] Titled "Wikipedia Writers Sure Know Their Hentai" it features the differences between the Chinese and English language coverage of Wikipedia. They seem to miss a few facts that the Chinese Wikipedia coverage integrates the split off English articles like Eroguro. In any event... its a bit of a shock to me since the last 100 edits or so were mine and essentially created the page as you see it now. [8] Though the lengthy section History of hentai was my major work that got pushed into another article out of length. That's sort of embarrassing, but at least it wasn't scholarly, right? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 13:59, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Whether or not all manga and anime lolicon is cartoon pornography[edit]

Comments are needed on this matter: Talk:Lolicon#All manga and anime lolicon is cartoon pornography? Flyer22 (talk) 18:09, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Categories for hentai[edit]

I've listed step mothers sin as being an example of incest in film. I would also like to list Private Psycho Lesson as being psychology in fiction. I'm sure plenty of other hentai would count as categories they are not listed as. CensoredScribe (talk) 23:17, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal[edit]

Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live![edit]

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