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Architecture of the Cyclades

I have been looking into background material for an article with this title but have concluded that it would be far better to expand on individual buildings of architectural interest on each of the islands, perhaps including some of them in separate articles. We already have an article on Panagia Ekatontapiliani. There is no separate article on Lefkes, Paros but it is mentioned in Paros. Couldn't find much on its Agias Trias Cathedral, apart from images. We could go through all the islands looking for architectural highlights but I'm not sure whether it's worthwhile. Ultimately there could be a list of architectural features of the islands.--Ipigott (talk) 11:02, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

There are many travel guides which mention this and that building but we should stay away from these sources. Does anyone have access to a research book such as any of these? --Rosiestep (talk) 17:39, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Paris

I've spent hours the last few days getting this into shape. I really need some assistance in writing sections on Cuisine, Art, Fashion and Haut-coiture, music etc. Also the cityscape section needs an overhaul and the lead needs expanding and rewriting to adequately cover the whole article.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 17:26, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Making good progress, Rosie and I have finished the fashion section. Nvv or Rosie, can you add more on 20th century art like cubism etc, literature and older music from here, you'll have to scroll down or up to get the info. It has a lot of important info. I've already used it to help write part of the art. Cuisine and literature need the most work now.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 21:51, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

The metropolitan area is mentioned in the lead but there is little about it in the article. Perhaps something should be included under demographics?--Ipigott (talk) 10:15, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Cityscape I suppose would cover that. Don't worry about the lead for now, that's the last thing I intend to edit. Today I want to concentrate on getting the cityscape sorted out, so far I've reordered by arrondissement. new research is needed now to adequately summarise each one.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 10:23, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Excellent work guys, this is really starting to shape up. it's well worth it, check out the page views! In every 3 or 4 months or so it gets 1 million page views! Bit concerned about the length once I've covered all of the arrondissements it'll be over 170kb which is too big. Might have to whittle it down to 140kb range but it needs to be very long to do such a tremendous city justice.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 08:34, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Each of the 20 arrondissement sections need sourcing now and condensing as much as possible. Nvv and Rosie, can you help ensure that each section is sourced? Most of them just name landmarks so google books search find mention of it and source like that. Lead also needs expanding and improving..♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 20:37, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Success, we now have a GA on Paris. I'll wrap up my edits on it over the next few days. Thanks for your help, much appreciated!♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 15:03, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Ref making

I just found out about http://reftag.appspot.com/ today! Makes me think, I wasted my time writing the refs manually when this automatically does the job. .__. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 15:52, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I've been using it for a long time. Thought "everyone" knew about it. We should add a section on the RBN page with tools/gadgets etc.; I'll get that started. --Rosiestep (talk) 16:41, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Good idea!♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 08:33, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I started it so please add your special gadgets! --Rosiestep (talk) 16:22, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Art in Paris

I can't find "Lawrence and Gondrand". Which book is it? And btw, this book is a splendid source for this topic. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 07:15, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

It's a guidebook to Paris I have. I can't find it online.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 07:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Can you write it down as an offline source? Cheers, ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 10:19, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

New GA of the month

Now that Paris has passed any takers for Bangui? Might have to fill in the red links but it has been well-researched and would be good to get an African capital city to GA status. Doesn't need much work...♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 15:04, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

You're enthusiasm is overwhelming people!!!♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 20:02, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Carsaig Bay

An issue was raised at the DYK nom about the locale. After some research, I found there are 2 Carsaig Bay's. One is on the Isle of Mull near the Carsaig Arches and the article is about this one. The other bay of the same name is near Tayvallich, a town which has a neighborhood named Carsaig. I've tried to do some clarifying within the article but another set of eyes would be helpful. --Rosiestep (talk) 04:36, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Dieppe

I've made a request for a page move if anybody is interested is giving their perspective on what the best thing to do should be.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 17:12, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Diego García de Moguer & Geography of the British Indian Ocean Territory

I've resolved some of the dyk reviewer's issues, but others remain. (a) The hook sentence needs a RS. (b) The 3 sentences in the Diego article with a 'citation needed' tag were part of Ipigott's translation from the es wiki. Either we add RS for each of the 3 sentences, or we need to delete them. --Rosiestep (talk) 03:48, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I have tried a lot to find the references but failed. It may be better to delete the sentences. Similalry in Loas Vegas article there are many uncited paragraphs for which I am searching for references.--Nvvchar. 01:10, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

So my name was mentioned here Talk:Diego García de Moguer per my comment at the dyk nom. We have to be more cautious with translations from other language wikis, especially when there are big deal claims that are unsupported by refs. Agreed? Let's get those problem sentences removed; or I can do it after work tonight. --Rosiestep (talk) 14:54, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Mink industry in Denmark

I've done a fair amount of c/e but I can't seem to get the article in order to pass the dyk review. It needs someone else's attention. --Rosiestep (talk) 04:19, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

It seems that Orlady and co don't want to pass it...♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 06:43, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Nikimaria too. But why?--Nvvchar. 01:12, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Sticky folks we have. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 11:57, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Featured article suggestion

I think Kanak people has FA potential. I'm considering readdressing it and placing at peer review. I think it would be great to have an FA on Oceania. I know you guys generally don't place too many of your eggs in the GA and FA baskets much like I didn't previously and would rather make less stressful edits to new articles but I think it would be great for us to achieve our first FA as a group. Thoughts? Or shall we crack on with producing lots of the A-Z DYKs for the time being and get you both over the 1000 DYK milestone first? It's just having reached as many DYKs as I have, with a lot of them having rather petty problems, I'm finding myself more motivated to produce quality articles on topics which get millions of page views a year, or are culturally important and I find it more challenging to do so. ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 10:48, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I am in for the FA of Kanak people. Reaching 1000 mark by both Rosie and me would be nice since we are almost there. Paris was an experience and Marrakesh getting GA would give a nice feeling. Also let us not give up A-Z. --Nvvchar. 01:05, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

To have a featured article on a non-anglo centric topic like New Caledonia I think would send out a positive message to our readers that editors do care about that part of the world and it would look impressive. Let's get you and Rosie over the 1000 mark first though. Badajoz is already shaping up nicely and with a bit of work should reach GA quality. Information on the city has never been put fully into English in this way which is accessible to everybody, so again it is valuable work for a strategically important city between Spain and Portugal. Naturally our A-Z will continue once reach 1000, but I would like us to churn out less start-class DYKs and not rush them as we used to and try to get some of our past articles or important high traffic articles up to GA. Maybe a 25% GA work -75% DYK proportion or something. Nvv, please state the articles most dear to you on here and if it's some Indian temple or something of high value to you we'll try to get that up to GA next as a thankyou to all of the hard work you put in here. What about that lovely palace in Rajasthan, what was it now, City Palace, Jaipur I think? ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 12:03, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

  • Thanks for motivating me all through since 2009. Rosie has also encouraged and supported me all along and thanks to her as well. Yes, it could be 25:75 GA:DYK work. City Palace, Jaipur would be a good one. I will be adding a little more to Badajoz. Surprising that this place with lot of history and beauty is not known much to the outside world. There are still a few unreferenced paras there which probably could be deleted if we can't find references.--Nvvchar. 13:57, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Crime

Looking through the stalled DYKs I don't think it's a coincidence that at least 4 of them are crime-related. I think in future we should avoid crime-related articles for DYK. But the more I read the comments by finicky "personnel" like Orlady, I wonder if DYK is really worth the bother. Me personally, if reviewers seem to intentionally be picky and cause us problems I'd rather just say "enough is enough" and get on with something else. I don't mind making the extra effort to promote GAs for reviewers but putting in that amount of effort to try to improve "problems" like the Mink article just aint worth it and I'm not going to grovel like a dog on the whim of a DYK reviewer, it's degrading. Reviewers like Orlady and co for me ruin DYK for everybody when I know they're trying to improve the overall quality of it and are working in good faith and I actually agree with the majority of what they say. But a line has to be drawn between constructive criticism and recurrent and excessive badgering, stalling articles often unnecessarily. DYK isn't GA, and the excessive badgering over sources and content (as if the average DYK reader cares to that extent) concerns me. We don't owe them or DYK any favours, and the way they review our articles makes it look as if wikipedia is actually paying us to produce work here, and that a single DYK credit is more valuable than it actually is.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 19:44, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Totally agree. --Rosiestep (talk) 02:46, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Marrakesh now at GA!!

Thanks to all who helped me with this, especially Nvv for his effort during the GAC. Back to back GAs on Paris and Marrakesh we should be proud!! ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 06:23, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

New DYK guidelines

For a long time now I've noticed that some of our longer articles encounter more problems at the nom as there's more there to pick on. As you know by now I'm a highly efficient person who likes things to run as smoothly as possible. So I'm proposing a reform of our approach which will also be compatible with the suggestions I'm making to work more on GAs and expanding old articles and concentrate on quality. I propose that we keep DYKs as simple and minimum/efficient as possible and keep our expansion/GA work separate from DYK. I propose setting a limit on how long our articles can be. Here are the guidelines I've drawn up which I think will improve our situation:


  • a] We produce almost entirely new articles, no faffing about with char or x5 expansion, that has been the cause of much pettiness in the past. Occasionally may we expand and nominate an article if it is a short stub (under 1 kb) or a redirect, but the 5kb limit (as given below) will still apply.
  • b] New articles are to be no longer than 5 kb in total, at the very most 5 kb of prose but aim for 3- 5kb including sources and images
  • c] However notable the topic, keep it short and sweet, don't worry about making it comprehensive. Highlight the main points, enough to be over the 1500 char of readable prose and 3 kb threshold and enough to basically cover the topic without going into detail. Biographies should be around Adèle Dumilâtre sort of length.
  • d] We avoid subjects which are likely to be controversial like Crime/race/politics etc
  • e] On average we spend no more than 20-30 minutes each researching and editing each DYK article.
  • f] If a nomination is still stalled for over two weeks after initial complaint and despite efforts to solve it people are still complaining, we scrap it and move on.
  • g] If this is your first night at DYK, you have to DYK.

This way we can maximize the numbers of DYKs we produce and try to raise the quality without them being longer. Things will be kept short and sweet, avoiding some of the bloating and copyediting issues we often have over expansions, and Nvv especially will find the workload much less with an imposed limit upon length. And it'll have the added benefit of should something be wrong with the DYK there will be less content to have to sort out and address so technically we should encounter less problems. Once you pass the 1000 mark I propose a 50-50 ratio, 50% on DYK, 25% on stubbing/loose expansion/improvement work, 25% on working on a GA. I propose that we have an article of the week or two going in which we expand beyond a stub to B class and if we feel confident then propose it for DYK, if not, then don't, and then the GA thing for the month. The problem I think is getting you motivated to expand important articles and not DYK them. I think we need to get out of the mindset of thinking that everything revolves around DYK. There is far more to editing wikipedia than DYK. So if we can keep it as new article=DYK Expanded article =GA or High page motivator we'd have something to aim for with both. What do you think? If both Nvv and Rosie can state "support" our new rules will be put into effect immediately the moment you've both agreed. ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 18:31, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Failure to abide by the rules strictly will result in deportation to Franz Josef Land :-]♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 21:56, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Fully Support. In fact, we should try to avoid translations of wiki articles (German, French, Spanish etc) as it is invariably difficult to find references for the text; one of our recent problems in dyk. Crime and politics should be taboo at any stage. After 1000 DYK, the present over emphasis on DYK will go away.. On exceptional articles of interest the prose could be much longer which could be decided by mutual consent--Nvvchar. 12:45, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
The problem now is that the mean-spirited bunch of "well credentialled" DYK reviewers like Orlady and Gatoclass think that this is new proposal is an effort to reduce article quality and to churn out more DYKs than ever before which it isn't at all. I think we all know I've long wanted to greatly reduce my DYK output and focus on promoting articles to GA but I still want us to continue our work toward with basic expansions on a diversity of articles. So much experience with DYK has told me that the articles which had the most time and effort put into them tend to take ages going through, and the basic new articles especially on narrower topics tend to go through with less trouble. If we face a backlash from this proposal with people being excessively picky, or demanding that we expand articles more, it isn't worth the trouble in my opinion. But after what we've done, I think both Rosie and Nvv deserve to be awarded the 1000 DYK credit, so we'll plod on in the meantime. All I know is that we're far too talented to be treated poorly as editors. ♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 17:23, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Music in Paris

Some of the refs in the Reference section aren't accounted for in the Bibliography. If you can get that sorted out, we could suggest an ALT1 of: that Bal-musette (musette accordion player pictured) became a popular form of Parisian music in the late 19th century? --Rosiestep (talk) 13:47, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Resignation from DYK

I'm sorry to say guys that I no longer want to be associated with the thankless joke that is DYK. That not one single long-standing DYK contributor could defend us (quite the opposite in fact, they've ganged up together and supported the excessive badgering of reviewers) and people only seem intent on identifying our flaws as a group rather than what we've really accomplished in terms of knowledge I think illustrates how a lot of people really view us, that we favour quantity over quality. Above all, it shouldn't really matter what people think, but as you know I've long wanted to ditch DYK and either expand articles together independently of it or focus on GA and FA which for me is more rewarding; recently my work on Paris and Badajoz I've really enjoyed. I said this a long time ago and it is only your shared passion for creating new content and expansions which has kept me going; as you know the brief front page showing (usually while I'm asleep) and the 1500 or so page views has never been a motivator. I hope that you'll continue at least until you pass the 1000 DYK mark which you both deserve, but I also hope then that you'll both increasingly see that DYK isn't everything and that other work we could do together on wikipedia can be far more rewarding. I'm happy to continue working with you but I really hope we can progress as a group and set ourselves new exciting challenges and move away from DYK. I think our true talents are wasted on rushing articles to meet DYK deadlines. We can continue with our A-Z beyond that but we don't necessarily have to make it DYK centred. As we progress I hope to come up with new innovative challenges to keep us interested and above all motivated.

Naturally I'm going to remain involved with this group, but I'm counting myself out from the DYK process until you reach 1000 DYK and we can decide where to go from there. I'm happy to help you with articles and not be credited in the meantime, please do though continue to update the A-Z list, that should continue as I say even if not DYKed. I may have a GA project or two in the meantime, but Bangui and Badajoz are the goals right now.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 09:38, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

(possibly involved) I must have missed something and am very sorry to see this. No, DYK is not "everything" but a means to show an article to a few more people, not only Main page readers. Of course there's nothing wrong with higher goals ;) I enjoy music in Paris and elsewhere, and I see it on the nom page! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:04, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Gerda.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 10:12, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

It seems that Gato Class is launching a "crackdown" on RBN content which according to him a lot of people are deeply concerned about. I'll leave it up to you Rosie and Nvv to decide if continuing to grovel to that bunch is worth the hassle. It would be great for you both to have 1000 DYK credits, but I fear that a further 60 DYKs for you may face more hardship than ever before.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 11:48, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Just my opinion: I daresay this project has contributed the most hooks to DYK and those reviewers should instead be thankful towards us for taking the time and effort to come up with these articles. While not perfect so to speak, at least we bothered. I don't like it when reviewers try to pick out every nitty gritty error in the article repeatedly, as if wanting the nom to be failed. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 14:22, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
Yes, they ignore the value of how many half-decent articles we've produced and only focus on the flaws. Frankly I don't want to be involved in such a toxic environment. Again I can't reiterate though that DYK really doesn't matter, we can still produce articles without DYK. and be free of its pettiness. The content itself should be the real motivator, not the DYK credit.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 15:52, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Well it is sour grapes when any project/subject-field produces a large number of DYK. Such spam must be stopped at all cost so that those who can't produce as many DYKs don't look so bad. Does that sum it up? Agathoclea (talk) 17:30, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Pretty much yeah, I get a strong feeling of resentment towards our organization and bulk of conributions from a few people which outweighs any real concerns with the quality of our work. Orlady herself said that she didn't want to help editors with such high DYK counts. Sums up the editorial mentality though doesn't it, does it really matter the quantity what we've produced? No editor is more important than content.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 17:51, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Burundi and Franz Josef

I was prepared to edit these this evening, very hot here but I'll try. Last day for Burundi but I think it wouldn't be well-advised to nominate either of them at present. I think it would probably be best for you to only pick articles according to the suggested new guidelines. At present you'll definitely get complaints on both.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 17:59, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Geography of Franz Josef Land

Char, would you please remove the historical Timeline from Geography of Franz Josef Land? Perhaps it should be moved to Franz Josef Land, but as Franz Josef Land already has a History section, I'm not sure whether adding the Timeline is appropriate. Or maybe start History of Franz Josef Land with it? --Rosiestep (talk) 05:17, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I've moved Wildlife and Preservation sections out of Geography of Franz Josef Land and into Franz Josef Land. I also re-arranged and c/e the article, mostly removing historical bits, tightening the focus on geography. --Rosiestep (talk) 05:18, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Who was it who converted the island headers into ; so you can't edit them? Can you replace them with ==== level 4 header?Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 12:31, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I think it's better now. --Rosiestep (talk) 14:46, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Gracias. It's frightfully hot here again to edit much today, just imagine if I lived in the middle east. But we don't have air conditioning in the UK like the US and don't own a single fan in my house...Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 17:16, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

I couldn't produce clear full scale maps of File:Map of Franz Josef Land-en.svg because it is svg, I wanted crops of the island groups for the sections, I'll see if Aymatth2 has any luck. Can we copy the inline coordinates like in Llantwit Major for all of the islands and features mentioned? I removed the written coordinates, but they can be re-retrieved in the page history or the articles we have on them.Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 10:43, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Priyanka Chopra

Passed FAC!Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 08:38, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Now the project should be retitled "Rostibnari". Doesn't sound that nice though :P ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 09:04, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
I actually think Rostibnari is an improvement, Rosie and Nvv what do you think? I think we should probably keep it as it is.. Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 10:17, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
Status quo.--Nvvchar. 00:48, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
Ditto. --Rosiestep (talk) 03:37, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Backlash

As I envisaged, a backlash has commenced, starting with the London 1960s article. I'd recommend withdrawing the crime articles too, sorry, Bonkers, but I can't see them being promoted. I'll let you decide how long you're willing to put up with such hostility. If I was you I'd probably scrap most of the existing noms because of the inevitable and I'd go slowly on the next 50 or 60 and ensure that the articles are definitely 100% sound before nomming. What Tony misunderstood about the suggested changes above was that he doesn't seem to be aware that most of our problematic articles are those which have a lot of text which needs copyediting and better focus and "shorter and sweeter" actually means higher quality and easier to read, like the Grenada Museum article. Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 07:40, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

About the crime ones, I'm alright, but Rosie and Nvv have put in sweat in those too, perhaps consult they two also... ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 10:43, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Hey Bonkers - I agree that withdrawing the Crime in Foo noms is the way to go. --Rosiestep (talk) 04:05, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Withdrawn both.Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 07:03, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Please withdraw both articles.--Nvvchar. 16:18, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Balloons

Good choice. my leaving DYK is cause for a celebration!Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 11:25, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

To new beginnings, amigo. --Rosiestep (talk) 04:01, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Heard Island and McDonald Islands

Check this out on Google Earth. It's one of the coolest place I've ever looked at. Try climbing up to the peak.Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 18:11, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Holiday

As I suspect that morale may be down at the moment for obvious reasons and some DYK people seem to now have some sort of vendetta against us, not to mention that summer is in full bloom, I'm proposing a holiday away from this project for 2 weeks until August 2. I think we all need a breather from DYK. I think nominating articles at present is asking for trouble unless they're really of very good quality. I'd suggest getting on with some solo editing stuff, creating some new articles and going back to your roots, e.g Nvv work on some of his Hindu temples and themes, Rosie on your meaty stub building on places like Asturias etc. and the same for me, and remember why we began editing in the first place. I think it'll be healthy for us. If either of you want some assistance in an article and vice versa let's only contact each other on talk pages and take a holiday from this right now, I can feel the glaring eyes on this by people who think our sole purpose is as a sewer as I write this... We don't owe anybody anything, and editing is supposed to be fun... Geography of Franz Josef Land and Burj Qatar appear to look reasonable, up to you Nvv if you want to nom them, there's nothing grossly wrong with them (to the naked eye). Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 06:39, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Big LOL at the photo!!Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 15:52, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Mount Elbert

How close would you say this is to GA?--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 15:36, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Pont Vella

Guys, if you don't want to take a 2 week break you may as well restore the page and go back to normal. I thought it was good advice, but if you really feel like continuing with DYK right now go for it!Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 16:13, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Dr B., I thought you had taken an outstation holiday break. Is the Mount Elbert article good for GA. I have recast the book references. --Nvvchar. 16:20, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Not even close to be honest.Tibetan Prayer ᧾ 16:36, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Did you know/Good Article RfC

Members may be interested in this RfC, which could affect the work of the project.--Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 00:48, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

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