Talk:Bartholomew the Apostle

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Saints (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Saints, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Saints and other individuals commemorated in Christian liturgical calendars on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Armenia (Rated C-class)
WikiProject icon Bartholomew the Apostle is within the scope of WikiProject Armenia, an attempt to improve and better organize information in articles related or pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page for further information.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Biography (Rated C-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 
WikiProject Oriental Orthodoxy (Rated C-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Oriental Orthodoxy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles on the Oriental Orthodox Church on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
 

redirect[edit]

Perhaps a one-way link from Bart Simpson to his apparent namesake. Ed Poor

Sure; I just thought it funny to point out that because Ellmist had made "Bartholomew" a redirect to "Bart Simpson", the link to "Bartholomew" on the page about the 12 apostles went directly there. This is probably not what he had in mind. :-)

I agree, as per the discussion regarding "Margaret". And let's be nice to Ellmist, because he's a hard worker and his heart is in the right place :-) --Ed Poor

Material needing work[edit]

The following was pasted into the article, with reference to why Bartholomew was flayed:

The reason being that St. Bartholomew and St. Thaddeus were preaching the new religion of Christianity in Armenia. Because of this the Armenian Church is called the Armenian "Apostolic" Church, since the two apostles were the first to bring the new faith to Armenia.

I'm not sure of its accuracy (no references given); I can't see how this explains why he was flayed rather than killed in some other manner; and the grammar of the first sentence is bad. If someone wants to clean this content up & get it back in there, fine. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:14, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)

St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre[edit]

I'm removing this link as it really has nothing to do with Bartholomew beyond the mere coincidence of his name. May as well put the Bart Simpson link back in. Jumbo 18:49, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)


It took place on is Feast Day, so it's not a MERE coincidence.

His feast day is on the 24th of august —Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.7.51.62 (talk) 17:27, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Barto?[edit]

For American English, we say "Bartholomew (learned); Bart, Barto (vernacular)". Bart is roughly equally so in the UK, I would think, including referring to a church or hospital as "St. Bart's". "Barto" I've never heard in my life, what is the basis for this? - Jmabel | Talk 06:35, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

3 days, no answer, removed "Barto". - Jmabel | Talk 18:51, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Albanopolis[edit]

Where is the city of Albanopolis today? Is it in Armenia, Turkey, or somewhere else? -- Clevelander 19:00, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Death and Martyrdom[edit]

I think there needs to be some specific explanation of how Bartholemew is alleged to have been killed and what the motivation was. There are several indirect references to his martyrdom and Armenian traditions, but it is never fully explained. I understand this may be partly because there is no concrete evidence for how or why it took place, but this does not preclude us from creating a section which outlines the best estimations of what happened. Personally, I read the article looking specifically to find this information and was left more confused than I started. Blankfrackis 19:04, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Can someone write what "tradition" claims? --Eddylyons (talk) 20:26, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Ok, done. 123.240.133.120 (talk) 18:40, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

His martyrdom is mentioned several times, yet no section on his martyrdom. This article is deficient. Someone please help.giggle 00:53, 16 December 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gregory.george.lewis (talkcontribs)

Name[edit]

Why is it that Ptolemy directly contradicts the meaning given here and has no reference to furrows or ploughmen? 199.91.34.33 (talk) 18:44, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

this site: http://www.ucatholic.com/saints/saint-bartholomew/ gives a different explanation and has it come from Bar Talmai (ref in II Sam 3:3) --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 14:45, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Miracles?[edit]

The miracle section seems completely anecdotal and is missing all of its sources; also, they do not apply to Saint Bartholomew himself but rather images of him. I'm not an expert on saints so there's not a lot I can do. Anybody up to fixing it a bit? -Lamarcus (talk) 00:20, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Baku[edit]

Is there a neutral reliable source for the claim that he was crucified in Baku. I'm afraid the calendar for the Baku church are neither neutral or reliable. As such, I removed the info per WP:Fringe. VartanM (talk) 18:01, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

The existence of the Russian-period church, proven through old images of it, would seem to be proof of the existence of this local belief. The question is, is it notable enough to be included unless we start mentioning other, similar, local claims? For example, for his association with Armenia, the St. Bartholomew monastery near Bashkale contained alleged relics and the nearby church of Soradir contained what was claimed to be his gridle. However, as as been pointed out on the talk page, the article doesn't contain a clear explanation of how or where or under what circumstances Bartholemew died. Meowy 14:38, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
There's no proof that St. Bartholomew was killed in Baku. It is just a belief of orthodox Christians in Baku, and was presented not as a fact, but the point of view of the Russian orthodox church in Baku. The reference was made to their website. I don't really see a reason why this fact cannot be mentioned here. If there are other places where a similar local tradition exists, they can be mentioned too.--Grandmaster 19:40, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
My problem is not with the legend, but the source. If you can find a reliable source to confirm it, you are more than welcome to re add the info. VartanM (talk) 23:42, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
The source is the website of Baku Eparchy of the Russian orthodox church. The views expressed there belong to that organization. Why is it unreliable to support the statement about the views of orthodox Christians in Baku? Grandmaster 04:37, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Grandmaster about this. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 08:55, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

caption[edit]

Can anyone read this? [1]

It goes like 'Nomme Praxitees ??imarc' Finxi Agrat'

SyP (talk) 14:11, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was undecided after 14 days Anthony Appleyard (talk) 11:24, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Bartholomew the ApostleBartholomew — The apostles here are all the sole or primary meaning of "Saint Name", the first is also the primary meaning of Bartholomew. See a defeated move request for Saint Andrew for a recent discussion. The remaining apostles are not the primary meaning of "Saint Name".

PatGallacher (talk) 18:19, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

  • Oppose "Bartholomew" - if everything is sainted, this should be as well. 70.29.210.242 (talk) 06:18, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Treating Bartholomew differently is fully in accordance with current Wikipedia naming conventions for saints, see WP:NCWC. "Saints go by their most common English name, minus the 'Saint', unless they are only recognisable by its inclusion. For example, Paul of Tarsus, Ulrich of Augsburg but Saint Patrick."

I think these articles have been moved to their current titles because of someone grinding an obscure theological axe, against describing anyone as a saint, but this has not been clearly explained. PatGallacher (talk) 12:39, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

It would be much better if it were just "Apostle X" ... since they are known that way, and you don't have to figure out what their "titles" were (ie. "the Evangelist"), and you don't have to figure out which "Saint X" is which. 70.29.210.242 (talk) 15:08, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

"Apostle X" is not a particularly common way of referring to these people, "Saint X" is more common. Actually, with Bartholomew, Matthew and Matthias there is no possibility of confusion with other saints, since there are no other saints with these names on Wikipedia. Jude the Apostle is already the primary meaning of "Saint Jude", it is well established on Wikipedia that somebody can be the primary meaning of a given name or title, you do not necessarily need to disambiguate. PatGallacher (talk) 16:54, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

  • We should move this article towards 'Saint Bartholomew' instead. Some of these guys (St. Patrick, St. Peter, St George, etc) are simply famous under "Saint X". IMHO we should follow common use and common sense. Furthermore we could and should merge Bartholomew (name) into Bartholomew (disambiguation). Flamarande (talk) 14:16, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
I am genuinely unsure by what you meant by the second sentence in the last contribution. You could be proposing a change in the naming conventions for saints, if so it should be raised there. I don't necessarily disagree with the last sentence, but that's a separate issue. PatGallacher (talk) 15:54, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm not clear on what is the proposal and what it would accomplish. If it is to change Bartholomew the Apostle to Bartholomew, I oppose. The Twelve Apostles are unique in the New Testament. There are hundreds of people revered as saints by one group or another. There were only Twelve Apostles (at any one time). "Apostle" is far more distinctive than any other title I can imagine, and certainly more unique than "Saint." Thanks. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 21:12, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
But this proposal only applies to those Apostles who are already the sole or primary meaning of "Saint Name". Is "Apostle Peter" or "Peter the Apostle" really more comprehensible than "Saint Peter"? PatGallacher (talk) 21:48, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Outside of those Churches that canonize or otherwise highly revere saints, yes: "Apostle Peter" or "Peter the Apostle" really more comprehensible than "Saint Peter". However, you picked the one case among the apostles where Saint can likely be justified even on the basis of colloquiums such as "Saint Peter at the Pearly Gates." Except possibly for Peter, I submit that the answer to your question concerning the other apostles is a clear yes. If one searches for "Saints," there is a huge list. If one searches for "Apostles," there is a short list. Bartholomew is one the lesser known among The Twelve. But what is his "claim to fame," his most important distinction? Was it his sainthood by Catholics or his selection by Jesus as an Apostle? Most Protestants and many others couldn't care less about canonization and don't recognize it as being valid. Apostleship, especially of the original Twelve, is recognized and highly honored by virtually all adherents of the Christian faith. If I understand your proposal, you suggest dropping "the Apostle" off of Bartholomew. Is that correct? I don't understand why. Perhaps I miss your point. Please clarify for me "this proposal only applies to those Apostles who are already the sole or primary meaning of 'Saint Name'". Thanks. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 23:03, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

This confirms my suspicions, that somebody is pushing a peculiar minority POV here. "Most Protestants and many others couldn't care less about canonization and don't recognize it as being valid." This is simply not the case. In Scotland, a Protestant country, people talk about St. Andrew's Cross, St. Andrew's Day and St. Andrew's House, it would come as a surprise to very many people that there is anything illegitimate about these terms. In England, people celebrate St. George's Day, in Glasgow we have St. George's Cross (with an underground station of that name) and St. Andrew's Square. In the Shankill Road in Belfast, a stronglhold of militant Protestantism if ever there was such a place, you have St. Matthew's Church. Who are these churches who do not canonise or otherwise highly revere saints? PatGallacher (talk) 23:48, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with User:PatGallacher (who forgot to sign his post above). Saint Bartholomew's sainthood doesn't matter (it's a red herring). What matters is the subjects common name in the English language. This article should use the most common name of the subject, which the average reader will use and recognize: it is Saint Bartholomew, and not Bartholomew the Apostle. Flamarande (talk) 23:44, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

a reference should probably be made to Saint Bartholomew, the patron saint of sailors (esp. in Portugal)[edit]

If the conclusion is that Portuguese sailors are not referring to the apostle then that distinction could be made clear.Peter (talk) 12:37, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Heading[edit]

So is Jonson's comedy really notable enough for mention in the header?

And is the Coptic feast date important enough to be in the header? Neither the Eastern nor Western feast dates are given in the header.

Rwflammang (talk) 16:58, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I would say no on Jonson, and it should be put in the body of the text. And the leads for most saints' articles include feasts days of the person, so I'll just add the RC and Orthodox feast days. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 23:00, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Reversion[edit]

I undid Filll's edit because it re-introduced honourifics and made the lead messy and less professional-looking. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 23:00, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Spelling[edit]

Nathanael or Nathaniel? Even if both are attested and used by different authors, there ought to be some sort of note about that. As it is, the article switches between spellings with no notice or explanation. --Khajidha (talk) 20:23, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

His Arm[edit]

In the relics section, it states "Some of Bartholomew's skull was transferred to the Frankfurt Cathedral, while an arm is venerated in Canterbury Cathedral today." Is there any evidence for his arm being currently held in Canterbury Cathedral? It is said it was taken there 1,000 years ago, but is there any evidence it's still there? Mesdale (talk) 08:07, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Attribution of Images[edit]

Does anyone know who is the painter of the image of Bartholomew that currently sits alongside the "Miracles" section, and is unattributed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.167.254.132 (talk) 14:20, 13 May 2015 (UTC)