Talk:Franciscan

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O.S.F.[edit]

Why does O.S.F. redirect here? There is no information on O.S.F. in this article.65.37.105.108 (talk) 15:48, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Presumably because an Anglican-tradition group uses this abbreviation, given in the article in the form OSF. Esoglou (talk) 07:34, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Bread and wine, but how?[edit]

The article should explain in detail the relation between priesthood and franciscan friarship. (At least some) franciscans are not priests, meaning they could not trans-substantiate the altar offerings into real Christ, even if the recited the book of mass exactly. On the other hand, some other monks (and friars?) are officially mass-able, so they can be considered priests. 91.82.39.212 (talk) 22:10, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

It sounds like you are confused between the difference between someone that is lay vs. someone that is ordained. Just like in the secular world there are people that are lay and some that are ordained, the same thing exists within the Franciscan community. Anyone that has taken vows, whether they be 1st Order, 2nd Order or 3rd Order Religious is considered Religious vs. people who haven't are considered Secular. This doesn't just apply to the Franciscan community it applies to all religious communities. The Franciscan friar is a brother in a community first and foremost. Some of them have also become ordained, but are still brothers. They have been ordained to help the community in some way, usually so they can conduct the Mass and hear confession, either just in the local community or in a parish. They are not seen as above or any better then any other Franciscans. Just a different aspect to their vocation. Similar aspect are involved in most non-priest "centered" religious Orders.Marauder40 (talk) 12:29, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Article organization[edit]

This article contains too much historical detail not comprehensible to the average user. It needs more overall information about the Franciscans. Chelmian (talk) 20:58, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Not real sure what your problem is with the article. Historical detail is most of what concerns people about the Franciscans. What information are you interested in. I pretty much qualify as an expert on Franciscans.Marauder40 (talk) 12:41, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
I'm not a historian - I'm a linguist studying Bible commentaries, including that of the Franciscan Template:Nicholas of Lyra. So I was looking for information such as: how many Franciscan houses were there in Nicholas' time, how dispersed were they geographically, how many Franciscans typically lived in a house, what professions (e.g., teaching) did Franciscans normally take up, etc. Partially I was interested just to understand Nicholas' life better, and partially to understand his time constraints when he became a higher official in the Franciscan order. I had the same problem with the article Template:Franciscan order in modern times - I should not have said "too much historical detail" if that is in fact useful to other folks, but I was looking for more overview material in addition.Chelmian (talk) 12:28, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
It sounds like you are looking for to specialized of information that may have issues with weight in this article. This article needs to cover over 800 years of information. It sounds like you are looking for just a brief moment in that time, probably related to a specific research project. This article obviously needs to cover the founding and any of the major times in its history. What you are looking for would probably be best covered in Nicholas of Lyra's page itself and highlighted in this article. Feel free to research it, for that page with valid resources. I don't really see any suggestions for what is needed for this article.Marauder40 (talk) 12:53, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
I agree that this article can't cover the organization of the Franciscans at every moment in time. I would still like to have a better idea of what Fransciscans are all about (as opposed to other religious orders), but I'm not sure that belongs here. I've removed the tag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chelmian (talkcontribs) 08:04, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
The problem is that what you are looking for about what the Franciscans are all about is more a judgement call then things supported by RS. Even if you only include Catholic Franciscans in the picture, other then following the Rule and life of St. Francis it is hard to nail anything specific down. There are many 3rd Order Franciscan communities each with its own flavor and mission. Even within the 1st Order Franciscans you get a lot of diversity. It is easy to say what differentiates say a Franciscan from a Benedictine, since one tends to be separate from the world as opposed to be in the world, but it isn't always easy to say what the differences are in today's world vs other mendicant Orders and communities, other then just saying following the ideals and tenants of St. Francis. Yes I agree this article needs work, especially in the area of references, but I am not sure we could easily find good RS for what you are looking for that looks at the Order as a whole, not just certain branches of it.Marauder40 (talk) 13:58, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Joseph McCabe criticisms - lack of NPOV[edit]

I previously added criticism to this section from Joseph McCabe, drawing from his writings in "History's Greatest Liars". This was dismissed as being a fringe viewpoint. This I disagree with. I'd first note the lack of criticism of St. Francis and Franciscans, demonstrating a lack of NPOV (something commented on by others), and also a conflict of interest in Marauder40 deleting these comments, where he seems to act with a conflict of interest, being a devoted Catholic and member of a Secular Franciscan order, as noted in his bio. I do not see him as someone to act with impartiality in considering criticisms of Franciscans.

I now look at whether Joseph McCabe's views can be considered as "Fringe" Joseph McCabe has an entry in Wikipedia, n.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_mccabe , and was himself a Franciscan Monk till the age of 19. He therefore draws on his own background in critiquing the Franciscans, and is a recognised scholar.

Of this particular comment, the origin is not Joseph McCabe alone, he draws from "The Middle Ages" by Professor James Westfall Thompson, where on page 674 he says "With wealth the old familiar evils that had corrupted the older orders corrupted the Franciscans and Dominicans too". He also draws upon the writings of Father Hoetzappel, a historian of the Franciscan order, not to mention his own pertinent background and experiences.

In this light, I consider the comment I introduced earlier as appropriate to Wikipedia, providing a range of views and importantly, criticism from a recognised scholar. In will engage in this talk page, but consider other processes within Wikipedia and seek the involvement of others within Wikipedia if need be. JohnAugust (talk) 23:55, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

First off you seem to have not read any of the polices regarding WP:AGF and the WP:COI policies that you seem to try to be invoking. Second you should read WP:RS. Just because someone writes a book doesn't mean it is a reliable source. Just a quick look around searching on the internet you will find many people, including atheists that have issues with the writings of McCabe. Just like today people won't allow people that leave Planned Parenthood be reliable sources on the inner workings of Planned Parenthood, that doesn't qualify someone that left the Franciscan Order be a qualified source on the entire Franciscan Order. Also just because someone has an entry on WP doesn't mean he isn't fringe. You can not use WP as a source for itself. If you have sources beside McCabe for criticism, feel free to bring them up. In addition to that, the entire entry that you were trying to add was specifically opinion and the opinion of one BIASED person. Also by policy criticism sections are to be avoided. There are already many criticisms about the Franciscan Order listed in the article. Following policy they are incorporated into the appropriate sections. Marauder40 (talk) 14:07, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Apart from the other things you have brought up, which I'll deal with - probably in the new year, my post above noted other sources - Professor James Westfall Thompson and Father Hoetzappel - which McCabe drew from in making his original assertions. I have brought up other references, something you've not acknowledged. Also, please give me a reference to the policy that there be no separate criticism section - I've seen it in several Wikipedia articles, and thought it was a convention.JohnAugust (talk) 23:15, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
Your post noted other sources, but apparently they are other sources for his book, not the statements you tried to add. The article is about facts and history about the Franciscan Order, it is not about one person's personal opinion of that order. Especially if that person is biased. As for the policies WP:CRITS, and I quote "Articles dedicated to negative criticism of a topic are discouraged because they tend to be a a point-of-view fork, which is generally prohibited by the neutral point-of-view policy. Likewise, sections within an article dedicated to negative criticisms are discouraged. Topical or thematic sections are superior to sections devoted to criticism. Best practice is to incorporate positive and negative material into the same section." Yes some articles have criticism sections because either the people that made them were lazy or because they are left around from before this was created. This article has all the criticism already within the body of article, like it should be. The only time criticism articles/sections are warranted is when the back and forth of the criticism becomes so large it swamps the article (i.e. Criticism of the Catholic Church, Criticism of Islam, Criticism of atheism, etc.)Marauder40 (talk) 13:54, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
Marauder40, apart from the other issues which I'll get to, I need some help - I used google and found many pages saying good things about Joseph McCabe, but could not find any criticism - be that from Atheists or Christians. Could you please point me in the direction of these criticisms you note, particularly ones from Atheists ?JohnAugust (talk) 01:20, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
Marauder40, I still do not have any criticisms of McCabe from any Atheist sources - all the Atheist commentary I can find points to his position as a respected authority in those circles, contrary to what you asserted. Could you please clarify your position ?JohnAugust (talk) 01:04, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Dissensions during the life of St. Francis[edit]

In the first paragraph in this section is found the following sentence:

"Elias of Cortona originated a movement for the increase of the worldly consideration of the order and the adaptation of its system to the plans of the hierarchy which conflicted with the original notions of the founder and helped to bring about the successive changes in the rule already described."

To me, this sentence is a bit long and somewhat unclear. Perhaps someone who knows the topic could work on it and clarify, and perhaps simplify, it.CorinneSD (talk) 23:16, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Teachings and Beliefs[edit]

This page does a great job at describing the history of the Franciscans, but I don't see anything on the subject of what it means to be a Franciscan. What are their beliefs? The only thing that is said is that they are a relgious group "who adhere to the teachings and spiritual disciplines of Saint Francis of Assisi". However, these teachings and disciplines are not mentioned (or, if I overlooked them, they don't have their own section). 128.221.224.58 (talk) 15:46, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Is the link I have inserted enough? Esoglou (talk) 15:59, 3 July 2014 (UTC)