Talk:List of people with bipolar disorder/Archive 1

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This page was voted on for deletion at Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of people believed to have been affected by bipolar disorder. The consensus was to keep it. dbenbenn | talk 01:35, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This list is very accurate, most if not all are cited with credible sources. It is believable, as 1% of the population has bipolar disorder.

As for Jim Carrey, mentioned below, he has been very open about it, so he's official, and is on lithium these days. He's told his story in several interviews.

This list is preposterous. There's no way most of these people have/had bipolar disorder.

Can we split this list between people who are known to have bipolar, and people who are just theorized to have it? For example, I believe Margot Kidder has said she has it, while I doubt that Beethoven was diagnosed. -Branddobbe 08:29, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

I second the above comment. I would love to see this split. I think we need a list of people who have been confrimed as having this disorder and a separate speculative list of people who may have this disorder. I would hate to have someone decide what physcological disorder I suffered from after I died. p17265.125.163.221 10:44, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

1.Adolf Hitler? Really? Recently I read a quite new book written by a psychologist (not psychoanalyst) and there were no statements about mania. I think Hitler had several disorders (sadistic/antisocial/narcisstic/borderline) but I doubt he was suffering under bipolar disorder 2. The musician sting maybe suffers under bipolar disorder. 3. Are their facts or arguments on bjoerk? Rabauz 12:08, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Jim Carrey? Ben Stiller? Bipolar does not equate to eccentrics. The term bipolar seems to be used very loosely in this article, I suggest you review.

For a condition that affects 1% of a population this is a suspiciously comprehensive list of celebrities. Among others, I strongly doubt George Dubya (is this appropriate humour for an encylcopaedia?) Bush suffers from manic depression; would a man who has been President of the USA for 4 years be without press coverage of lapses of mental condition? A lot of celebrities will be reluctant to shake off spurious rumours relating to their mental health, because as is well known: there is no such thing as bad publicity. --AeneasMacNeill 03:27, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree with the above comments. Without attribution or evidence, this article is speculative nonsense. DocSigma 05:29, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In Spector's case, he admitted it in the Daily Telegraph interview.

There are numerous reliable sources available throughout the internet that reliably list famous people that have/are though to have had bipolar disorder. The same goes for a wealth of different highly-regarded books by leaders in the study of bipolar disorder (Touched with Fire, by K. Redfield Jamison being one ideal example). In none of these are listed numerous names that are featured in the Wikipedia article. This is innapropriate fun on one level, but dangerous disinformation on another. I can chuckle at the innapropriate-yet-good humored claim that a personality like George W. Bush suffers from manic-depression - it's an obvious fallacy to anyone but a complete beginner in the study of the disorder. But the claim that Hitler was believed to have Bipolar is something different - something not at all obvious to many and a statement that could very feasibly have a great, misleading, and intensely negative impact on people's conception of a disorder that already gets enough societal stigma. I think this touches something beyond a practical joke - it's probably a good example of the types of subtle misinformation that could make something like Wikipedia dangerous (I'm of course exaggerating to a rediculous extent on this example, but still - you can see the point I'm trying to make).

  • Right, but, see, there's nothing funny about bipolar disorder. At all. DocSigma 03:31, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Err... So when do we start deleting things? None of us can actually go through and disconfirm, but I bet there are only sources for about 3 people on this list.

Vote for Deletion

I added this to be voted on for deletion Nick Catalano 01:51, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ruthless edit

I have decided to be bold. I have change the introductory sentence to read:

This is a list of people who have been cited by a credible source as probably having bipolar disorder. Each entry is accompanied by the source.

I have moved the unsourced entries here. Which, currently, is all of them. In my opinion each should be added back into the article only when it can be accompanied by a reasonable citation.

This is a list of people who have been cited by a credible source probably having bipolar disorder. Each entry is accompanied by the source. I agree. Unfortunately many living individuals fear the stigma more than the illness. Michael Spensieri Here is the unsourced list:


A

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/features/story/0,,1407328,00.html

B

C

D

E

F

G

H

J

K

L

M

N

O

P

R

S

T

W

A creditable source.

On the main bipolar disorder page is a link to | a list of famous persons with mental disorders from the national alliance for the mentally ill. It contains about 20 names which I will transfer to this list in the next few minutes. LukeSurl 18:45, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

    • Interestingly enough I've also found the list which the creator of this page copyed and pasted LukeSurl 19:47, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)
      • Wait a minute. Many of the people on the NAMI list are not described as suffering from "bipolar disorder:" Abraham Lincoln, "incapacitating depressions;" Lionel Aldridge, "schizophrenia;" Eugene O'Neill, "clinical depression;" Leon Tolstoy, unspecified "mental illness;" Nijinksy, "schizophrenia;" Keats, unspecified, "mental illness"; Tennessee Williams, "clinical depression;" Hemingway, "suicidal depression;" Sylvia Plath, "clinical depression;" Michelangelo, unspecified "mental illness;" Vivien Leigh, unspecified "mental illness." The iridis site is a Wikipedia mirror, check the bottom of the page. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:01, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sources Schmources

Alright, so we found some websites that have similarly preposterous lists... We might even be able to find some print sources that say the same thing. But these claims are all still terribly speculative. Just because somebody else has written these lists before doesn't make them established facts. We certainly wouldn't see lists like this in a regular encyclopedia.

A correction

It has been written "The frequency of artistic geniuses in the list may also be a result of their being more famous than others suffering from bipolar disorder". Such a statement is logically flawed. Firstly, there are two critera to being on this list: (1) Be famous (2) be believed to be Bipolar. I hope you will agree that it is undeniable that there are a greater proportion of artistic geniuses on this list (meeting condition one and two) then there are in the general population of "famous people" (those meeting condition one). Hence this list shows a significant weighting towards artistic geniuses for some reason, but not because there are vastly more artistic geniuses then there are persons famous for other reasons (as is the logical conclusion to this statement). LukeSurl 17:57, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

...that's all good and well, but the list is still speculative bull-shit.

Bipolar world - copying from Wikipedia?

In my opinion Bipolar World is a list of currently doubtful validity. It might have copied from Wikipedia without attributing its source. If this is true we are basing at least part of this list on the "evidence" of a website with doubtful ethics.

Evidence:

  1. Bipolar World's entry on Leo Tolstoy (please scroll down) [1]
  2. Section in Wikipedia article on Leo Tolstoy [2]
  3. My request from the Wikipedia author to confirm non-copyvio status [3]
  4. His/her assertion of not having plagiarised but accusing Bipolar World of having plagiarised Wikipedia [4]

While Tolstoy is not on our list the point is if the list is produced without adequate care in parts we can check we do not know about the rest.

Conflict of Interest I supported deletion of this article and would still be happier if it was deleted. Refdoc 13:05, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

  • Scary stuff... I personally used a website as a reference for a "fact," was challenged on it, emailed the site and determined that indeed they had gotten it from a much older version of the Wikipedia article, from which it had been deleted as questionable and unsourced. (It was an assertion that Nicolas Chuquet had inconsistently used the words byllion, etc. in its short scale as well as its long scale meaning). As Wikipedia grows, the problem of "independent" sources that are from Wikipedia without obvious attribution is going to increase. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:23, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What now? Remove all entries supported by that list would be the least IMHO. Refdoc 15:20, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Since I don't plan to put much work into this article myself, my opinion shouldn't count for much.
I voted to delete the article unless every entry in it was sourced. LukeSurl promptly put most of them back giving NAMI or BPW as the sources for most entries; later he added the Kay Jamison Touched with Fire entries. (The only entry I personally added was Kay Jamison herself, because she said so and is highly qualified to make that diagnosis!). I consider even the "Touched with Fire" entries to be highly speculative, but they are from an identifiable and reputable source (and traceable, because her book is very detailed and well referenced). I personally consider both the BPW list to border on garbage, because in most cases they do not give their sources. BOth the NAMI and BPW lists seem to be casting a very, very wide net and are extremely vague as to whether there's specific evidence for bipolar disorder, as opposed to clinical depression or other conditions.
I'm not happy with the article, but my own view is that sourced is sourced, and readers can judge the quality of the source for themselves. I don't want to get into an edit war over quality of sources.
I think that a suitably NPOV caution about the unsourced nature of the BPW list would be in order.
I think the right thing to do is not to remove BPW and NAMI entries, but to painstakingly improve them one by one. In most cases, I'm sure that who ever wrote the BPW and NAMI entries lifted them from some source and didn't bother to attribute them, and that the best thing to do would be to gradually replace them with better sources and remove the bogus ones. I strongly feel that in almost every list, short comments improve the item, and the list should be annotated. ("Biographer XYZ uses the term 'bipolar'"), ("Comments in his autobiography about his 'highs and lows'"), etc.
In the case of entries supported by several sources, it would be reasonable to put the best one first and the others in parantheses, e.g. "TWF (also BPW, NAMI)"
But that's just me. I'm really neutral on this. I'm not going to remove a name on the basis of being badly sourced, but if removed I'm not going to put one back, either. Dpbsmith (talk) 15:52, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No, I think the stuff should go out and should come back only if sourced appropriately. Refdoc 16:07, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Unsourced or poorly evidenced additions

I think the consensus is that no unsourced additions should be made. I have therefore removed the addition of "Charles IV", until evidence for his presumed bipolar disorder is given. Refdoc 08:18, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

  • Agreed. Note that the article itself says: "Below is a list of people who have been cited by a source as probably having bipolar disorder." Dpbsmith (talk) 12:31, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

John Berryman TWF "...Berryman's alcoholism and depression interfered with his ability to give readings, to speak in public, and to work appropriately. In 1972, Berryman's depression led him to ... kill himself" (from Wiki article) This sentence is not sufficient evidence of suffuring from bipolar illness which would require at least one episode of manic illness apart from one or many depressive episodes. Refdoc 08:21, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • Presumably, if the TWF (Jamison's Touched with Fire) source is correct, Jamison must have thought there was evidence of bipolar disorder. When I get a chance I'll see what she says about it. I'm not saying that Touched With Fire is an impeccable reference, I'm just saying that Jamison is sufficiently expert that I don't think she would have speculated that a person was bipolar unless she were aware of some evidence for manic episodes. Dpbsmith (talk) 12:29, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Jane Pauley

I thought this was the most glaring omission. She came out with her story in dealing with BP fairly recently, and it has been all over the news in 2004. Likewise, Maurice Benard talked about his situation on Oprah. Mike H 06:32, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

Fine, and I believe you, but I've removed your current entry:
Jane Pauley has spoken on her talk show about her condition.
The reason is that the simple statement that she "has spoken on her talk show about her condition" is not citing a source. Unlike your entry for Maurice Benard, which has a very good source.
Please dig up some kind of print or web source for Jane Pauley's condition before you reinsert it. You've gotta do better than "it has been all over the news." It probably has, but where? Dpbsmith (talk) 15:15, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Well, for one, it's in her book Skywriting. As well as here, here, here, here (which reveals that yes, I am not a liar, and yes, she talked about it on her show), here, here...the list goes on and on. You really could have searched for this yourself, instead of doubting my credibility. Mike H 02:27, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)
I didn't doubt your credibility. In fact I said I believed you. What I said is that you didn't provide a reference. I think it's up to contributors to find that reference before adding a name. Or, to put a note on this Talk page saying "Jane Pauley has spoken on her talk show but I can't find a reference right now, anyone want to add her when they find a good reference?" You've found one and you've added the entry. Fine. I'm just saying don't jump the gun; don't add names until you have the references. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:02, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Howard Hughes?

An anon just added

"Howard Hughes" TWF

But I couldn't find him mentioned in Touched with Fire, not in the index anyway. If someone has a page reference, please provide it. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:59, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Tom Waits?

An anon just added Tom Waits with no citations. Does anyone have one? Dpbsmith (talk) 20:51, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

TWF page entries

Since we've had an case of someone adding a name and appending TWF, although the person does not seem to be mentioned in Touched With Fire, it seemed like I should probably check the others, which were all OK. I've added page references. I did this rather lazily; most are references to her Appendix B on pp. 267-9 which is simply a list of names. Some of them have much extensive descriptions within the text.

If you have a "missing" name

Let me repeat: if you know the name of someone who is not on the list whom you are anxious to add, and you're pretty sure there's a good source for that person's being bipolar, but you do not have a source to cite, then, please, by all means mention the name here. But do not the name to the article itself until someone can actually find that source and put it into the article along with the name. Dpbsmith (talk) 21:16, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Unsourced entry: Kristy McNichol

Recently added by an anon:

Kristy McNichol The former child star and teen idol left her show Empty Nest due to her battle with the depression. McNichol later returned to the show for a few episodes during the series' last season.

The Kristy McNichol article asserts asserts she was diagnosed with manic depression, but gives no source. The only source cited, Kristy McNichol at IMDb , says nothing about it.

Anyone with a good source reference, feel free to add the reference and reinsert. Dpbsmith (talk) 20:49, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Her E! True Hollywood Story went into detail on it. I'll see if I can find a written source. Mike H 01:17, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)
This is from VH1.com, which in turn took it from the All Movie Guide.
In 1988, McNichol returned to series television as an unmarried detective who returns home to live with her father and her recently divorced sister in the sitcom Empty Nest (1988-1995). Suffering from severe bouts of manic depression, McNichol left the show during the 1992-1993 season. Since then she has apparently retired from acting.
Here is the source. [5] I'm re-adding it with the link. Mike H 01:20, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

Unsourced entry: Jaco Pastorius

Jaco Pastorius - Electric bass legend. Bipolar affliction is well-documented in biographies, interviews, and liner notes.

As soon as someone can cite a specific biography, with ISBN number and page number if a book, or volume/number/page if a magazine, or a URL for a web interview, or the specific name of the recording and author of the liner notes, it can go into the article. Citing a source means citing a source, not just saying that a source exists. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:18, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Quick due-diligence check: this online biography by Pat Metheny FAILS to mention mental illness, manic depressive illness, or bipolar disorder. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:30, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Unsourced entry: Adam Ant

Adam Ant Has spoken openly on television about his condition.

Credible, but not sourced. Our article on Adam Ant says he suffers from bipolar disorder but gives no references. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:26, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Is this good enough? G-Man 01:15, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • Sure. I'll put it back myself with that reference. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:55, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Unsourced entries: Trent Reznor, Ozzy Osbourne

I've removed both of these unsourced entries. -- Karada 15:07, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Kurt Cobain

Removed pending provision of sources:

  • Kurt Cobain - Nirvana frontman. Many of his lyrics can be interpreted as symptoms of bipolar disorder. Cobain took his own life in 1994.

1) Suicide does not necessarily imply bipolar disorder. 2) The remark that many of his lyrics can be interpreted as symptoms of bipolar disorder is not sourced. Who says they can be interpreted this way? A mental health professional? A biographer? A newspaper reporter? Dpbsmith (talk) 16:02, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • He's got a song call Lithium that together with what is known of his life, well, he seems very familiar with the disorder...| lyrics. Not just the lyrics describe the illness, the music is even much more obviously bipolar. The final reference should be somewhere. --Pold 23:05, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Well, fine. Find a reasonably credible source you can quote who says so, and you can put him in the article together with the source citation. If it's that obvious, it shouldn't be all that difficult to find one. Speculation based on song lyrics, even plausible speculation, isn't good enough. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:14, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Her cousin, Beverly Cobain, a "registered nurse who already had 15 years of experience as a mental health professional by then [1994], rededicated her life to teaching and crusading for suicide prevention". She's written a book called When Nothing Matters Anymore: A Survival Guide for Depressed Teens ISBN 1575420368. She seems to talk about Kurt in the book, according to index that Amazon lets you see, and in the following site interview she talks about other factors such as the genetic component (two suicides in the family) and says: "Kurt was diagnosed at a young age with Attention Deficit Disorder [ADD], then later with bipolar disorder. " http://www.ahealthyme.com/topic/cobainqa The site is linked to by http://www.mentalhealth.com/dis/p20-md02.html

By the bio outline on her site, she is credible. http://www.livingmatters.com/about.html I put Cobain back with the reference. Family member plus mental health professional looks like the ideal reference.

--Pold 00:39, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

    • Good! Now that that's taken care of... I don't see why the note shouldn't mention that he wrote a song entitled "Lithium" (and that lithium carbonate, often called simply "lithium," is a common treatments for bipolar disorder). I think the book you cite is an excellent reference. The point is not so much where Beverly Cobain is qualified and credible, as that a) Wikipedia isn't saying Cobain was bipolar on its own authority, or on the basis of someone's interpretation of some song lyrics, and b) any reader is now in a position to judge the accuracy and credibility of the statement. "Kurt Cobain was bipolar" may still be debatable; with an ISBN number, "Beverly Cobain said Kurt Cobain was bipolar" is an easily verifiable fact. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Kit Gingrich

I've removed

Kit Gingrich, mother of Newt Gingrich [6]

pending a better source. The problem here is that the cited source, http://www.bipolarsurvivor.com/famous_print.html is a website which simply lists her and does not give any specific source. It gives as general sources http://www.themoodyones.com, http://www.pendulum.org/information/information_famous.html, and http://www.mixednuts.net/depression-famous.html. The first site gives me a timeout error. The second does not even appear to mention Gingrich, and neither does the third. Dpbsmith (talk) 15:34, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

plagiarism

Many of the descriptions given to the people listed are ripped word-for-word from the articles cited. See, for example, Marilyn Monroe and Gustav Mahler. Citing a source doesn't, AFAIK, give you the right to take material from it. --Misterwindupbird 00:58, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Quoting a few sentences is fair use. Nothing about IP law is perfectly clear, but that's about as clear as anything can be. See http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/fairuse-explain.html for a good article on fair use. It says that specific examples of things that courts have found to be fair use include:
    • quotations of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment
    • quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author's observations;
    • summary of an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report.
Also, IP law is all about money. If anyone takes you to court, they have to show how many dollars the alleged copyright infringement has cost them. If you photocopy a book and hand it to someone, they might not buy the book. But there's no way that quoting a couple of sentences is going to cause monetary damage.
Plagiarism is different, a matter of ethics rather than law. If you put something in quotation marks and give the source, you're not plagiarizing. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:10, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's fine, and I know all that, but the text in question is not presented as a quotation, which is what I take issue with. I wasn't refering to legal right, as you point out, but ethics. There's no question that putting quotation marks around all the copy-and-pasted sentences would be both legal and ethical, as it would make it clear it was quoted material, though it might be unencyclopedic. --Misterwindupbird 09:40, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Jimi Hendrix

Jimi Hendrix is listed w/o a source. While he did write a song about it, this is not evidence enough

Removed. --Misterwindupbird 03:14, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Rosemary Clooney

Removed an unsourced entry. As always, whomever added it may well remember seeing or hearing it in some credible place, but that's not good enough. Before adding a name, find a source for the assertion that the person is bipolar, and cite it. Dpbsmith (talk) 12:46, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Jimi Hendrix

(I was the one who added him in the first place)

Many of the names on the list are not guarantees, not everyone on that list is there because they said they had manic depression. But I feel someone who writes a song named "Manic Depression" where he says "Manic depression is catchin’ my soul", who was known by people close to him to suffer from some sort of mental illness is enough evidence to add him to a list called "people believed to have been..".

The name is not "List of people that have been affected by bipolar disorder". The name of the list specifies "believe". I feel that a quote saying "Manic depression is touching my soul" "Manic depression is a frustrating mess" would mean that the person was very likely to have manic depression.

This is why I will add Jimi Hendrix back to the list.

"Jimi Hendrix" "Bipolar Disorder" brings 577 results at the moment. I imagine that he is believed to have been affected by bipolar disorder, and since he says in his song that he has it, he probably believed this himself.

As presently written, reasons for and against are presented, and the reader is left in a position to make an informed judgement and to pursue further details.
Two things that could be improved. First, I think that it is OK to add people who have said they have manic depression if a source is provided. The problem here is that a song lyric is not a source. Song lyrics are not necessarily literal statement of what the songwriter and/or performer believe. Johnny Cash sang "Life ain't easy for a boy named Sue," but he wasn't named Sue (nor was Shel Silverstein, the songwriter). There's not even any way tell whether Cash (or Silverstein) had the sort of relation with his father implied by the song. Did Hendrix ever refer to manic depression in an interview, or something other than a song lyric?
Second, I still don't like the references, because they are basically dead ends. Bipolar Disorder Today simply says "Most of this list was obtained from the Internet." They don't even give the links. We can't find out why they think Hendrix was bipolar. Bipolar World just gives a couple of paragraphs about his musical career, and then states that he died after taking "vesperax" and choking on his vomitus. One might suspect a suicide attempt, but why would anyone conclude from that, that he was bipolar?
Wasn't there anything better among those 577 hits? Dpbsmith (talk) 12:16, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Jorn Barger

Removed:

Jorn Barger,(blogger)-to Paul Boudin in 'Wired' Magazine, 2005

because:

  • the Wired article says nothing about bipolar disorder, manic-depression, or even, explicitly, mental illness.
Barger has since said that the Boutin article was mostly "fiction."

Dpbsmith (talk) 19:21, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

This was merely one of a series of vandalism edits by an anon IP, nothing more. -- Curps 12:57, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Jim Carrey

Recently added to the list, again. Removed again because, again, no source was given. If "he's been very open about it," as someone noted above, then it shouldn't be hard to find a good, verifiable source citation, such as an interview in a verifiable mainstream news publication, in which he talks about it; then reinsert his name together with that citation.

By all means use this Talk page as a memo pad on which to suggest missing names, but don't put them into the encyclopedia article until they are properly sourced. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:02, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Gordon Sumner (Sting)

I removed this because no source was given. Please find a good source citation, then it can be reinserted together with the source. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:33, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Charles Mingus

Recently added:

Charles Mingus The jazz composer had a tendency in his career to go through intense periods of composition only to be followed by a periods of dormancy. Furthermore, his well documented irascibility, belligerence and aggression seem to be characteristic of the mania phase.

Unfortunately, speculation, even very plausible speculation, resting only on the authority of the person inserting the item, is not encyclopedic. This is a list of people accompanied by verifiable source citations associating them with bipolar disorder. This entry can be reinserted in the article as soon as someone finds a verifiable source citation—a book, newspaper article, or even a reasonably authoritative website—that says in so many words that Mingus was bipolar. The source must be given along with the name.

In this case, note that the reference must say specifically that MIngus was bipolar—not merely that he was irascible or belligerent, or even that he was mentally ill. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:25, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Peter Sellers

Entry consisted solely of the name:

Peter Sellers

Do not reinsert until it can be accompanied by a verifiable source citation.

This was reinserted in the following form:

Peter Sellers He was said by those who knew him to be completely unpredictable, often jumping alarmingly from pleasant to aggressive.

I have removed it, even though it is very plausible that Sellers was bipolar, because a) no verifiable source citation is given, and b) being mercurial does not necessarily mean being bipolar. This citation needs to quote a verifiable source, such as a biography or newspaper article, with enough information (e.g. date and page number) so that curious readers can locate that source for themselves. That source needs to say specifically that he suffered from bipolar disorder, not merely that he had unpredictable mood swings. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:08, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Phil Spector

The entry was:

Phil Spector in 2003 interview published in The Daily Telegraph

This can be reinserted as soon as a source citation is provided that is good enough to be verified by anyone curious enough to do so. Specifically,

  • a date and a page reference for the interview, OR
  • a good citation of a secondary source that says "in a 2003 interview in The Daily Telegraph...

Readers can't be expected to search the entire Daily Telegraph for the year 2003. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:02, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Ozzy Osbourne

No source given.

Our Ozzy Osbourne article mentions bipolar disorder; if someone wants to reinsert this the first thing to do is to check out the sources given in the Ozzy Osbourne article and see whether any of them mention bipolar disorder.

If one of them does, it can be used as a source citation here in this article.

If none of them do, then the statement in the Ozzy Osbourne article, "He divorced his first wife, Thelma, and developed bipolar disorder" should be edited to remove the phrase about bipolar disorder. Dpbsmith (talk) 15:00, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Bing Crosby

With regard to people whose Wikipedia article says they are bipolar, per the edit note on Bing Crosby: do not simply list the name here. Check the Wikipedia article. If it gives as source for the person's being bipolar, put that source here as well. If the article gives no source, remove the claim from the article.

In this case, all the Bing Crosby article said was "Many people believe that Crosby's extraordinary abilities were due to his having bipolar disorder." Such a claim should not be put in an article without indicating what people, specifically, believe this, and indicating where they said so.

This claim seems particularly questionable, by the way. It was made and removed from the article once before, and the editor who removed it notes a discussion on this message board. One commentator says:

I work with bi-polar people for a living and have for a number of years. Having been exposed to these people 40 hours a week, I can state with some authority that Bing never had bi polar disorder. His personality is entirely inconsistent with this malady. Bing never had spectacular highs, for instance. In his drinking and partying days, circa 1926-1932, he was unusually upbeat (for lack of a better word!), but this was fueled by booze, not a genetic disorder.
Now Gary Crosby is another matter. Not only was he an alcoholic like his mother, he did exhibit traits consistent with a bi-polar personality. Lindsay did as well, though less is known about his personality.
Bing was phlegmatic, calm and laid back for much of his adult life. Believe me, those with bi polar disorders do NOT behave in this manner.

(And, no, a posting in a discussion form is not a good enough source to justify inserting Gary Crosby). Dpbsmith (talk) 13:56, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

More unsourced entries

Please provide verifiable sources before reinserting.

Contributors: these may be people widely regarded as bipolar, particularly within the bipolar community. These may be people about whom you remember reading a biography or a press account saying they were bipolar. It may be helpful to list names here on the talk page as repaying research.

But they should not go in the article, until somone can cite a reliable source that says they are bipolar.

Billy Carnes

Billy Carnes (Bassist of the band Salvaged Souls) is believed to have have bipolar disorder for when he was 14 years old he was very verbal about his constant mood swings. "I go from really really happy to extremely low and depressed" Billy stated in an Interview early October 2005.

This will be fine and can go in as soon as a citation for that interview is added. (What newspaper or magazine? If newspaper, name of paper and year/month/day/page number. If magazine, name of magazine and volume/number/page number. If website, give URL). Dpbsmith (talk) 02:30, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Handel, Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Tolstoy

Recently added without accompanying source citations:

Remember, please, names must be accompanied by source citations at the time when they are added.

If someone is well known to have been bipolar, such a citation should not be hard to find, but it is up to the person who adds the name to do this work before adding it.

You do not need to prove that the person was bipolar, but you do need to prove that someone respected, such as a biographer, has made that suggestion explicitly (using the word bipolar, or manic-depressive, or cyclothymic).

Abraham Lincoln
No good
Abraham Lincoln was subject to extreme mood swings
No good
Abraham Lincoln: Biographer XYZ says in book Q, page so-and-so: "Lincoln's mood swings were extreme."
No good
Abraham Lincoln: Biographer XYZ says in book Q, page so-and-so: "Lincoln's mood swings were extreme and psychologist JKL has speculated that he suffered from what today would be called bipolar disorder."
Good enough, because a source has been cited, and the word "bipolar" is used.

Dpbsmith (talk) 13:45, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Abbie Hoffman

Removed; no source provided. Our article calls him bipolar, but none of the sources cited says so, so I'm going to remove this from the Abbie Hoffman article as well.

As always, this doesn't mean that I doubt the likelihood of his being bipolar, but as it says on every edit page "Content must not violate any copyright and must be verifiable."

  • Reinserted. I found a source. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:02, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Jesus

I removed:

  • Jesus, Suffered from grandiose religous delusions, had episodes of psychosis(belived he was being personally tempted by the devil), went through mood shifts (one minute its turn the other cheek, the next its lets flip over tables and crack whips in the temple), and experienced racing thoughts (wasn't able to follow his thoughts to logical conclusions, jumped from one idea to the next, and made a number of conflicting statements).

As it happens, I perceive this entry to be non-neutral, but that's not why I removed it. The problem is that it is unsourced.

As always, it is not the fact that needs to be verifiable, but the source. If someone can quote a good verifiable source... if, for example, there's some kooky but famous book that says in so many words that the historical Jesus of Nazareth was bipolar... there could be an entry for Jesus, quoting the book. (And, of course, if the book were widely regarded as nutty, it would be appropriate to quote a well-sourced opinion to that effect as well).

It is not sufficient to find a source that says that Jesus behaved in thus-and-such-a-way, and that this pattern of behavior, in the opinion of some Wikipedia editor, might be characteristic of bipolar disorder. It is necessary to find a source that directly connects Jesus with "bipolar disorder" or "manic-depression."

We need to be careful with every entry, but since Jesus of Nazareth is so widely revered, it is appropriate to be particularly careful about anything we say about him. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:21, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


First, I would like to apologize for making the original entry without placing it on the talk page beforehand. Although I do suspect Jesus was a manic depressive, I knew some people would react strongly to this statement. My primary motivation in posting it was to show the absudrdity of diagnosing people who lived in different eras and passed away without having recieved a diagnosis while living. This arguement should have been made on the talk page not the main article.

However I still think that if Meriwether Lewis, Napoleon,Robert Louis Stevenson,Hans Christian Andersen, and Ludwig Van Beethoven make the cut then there is more then enough evidence to include Jesus using the same evidentiary standards.

Here is an article that makes an explicit arguement that Jesus was bipolar. http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:JdRFFxaroQMJ:webzoom.freewebs.com/shequality/A%2520Psychodynamic%2520Study%2520of%2520Jesus.doc+%22Jesus+was+a+manic-depressive%22&hl=en

David Friedrich Straus wrote two nineteenth centruty boooks that indicated Jesus was unstable.

Oskar Holtzmann, War Jesu Ekstatiker? , 1903 (Was Jesus Ecstatic?)

Dr. George de Loosten published, Jesus Christ from the Standpoint of a Psychiatrist in 1905. The book explains Jesus’ apparent bizarre behavior on a number of occasions as being tainted by a bad heredity which made him a “degenerate” with a “fixed delusional system.

Dr. Binet-Sangle wrote the book La Folie de Jesus (The Dementia of Jesus) Which documents seven of Jesus' hallucinations

Dr. William Hirsh published a 1912 work titled: Religion and Civilization—Conclusions of a Psychiatrist. In this book he identifies Jesus as paranoid and suffering from ceaselessly mounting megolomania.

65.125.163.221 23:14, 30 December 2005 (UTC)p172

I am tempted to add Jesus in light of the above info, but would like to see more input from others first. However at some point I will probably just follow the old adage that he who is silent consents, and add it even without support unless someone comes up in opposition to it 65.125.163.221 14:30, 31 December 2005 (UTC)p172

Most of these could be used to justify placing Jesus on a list of "people who were believed by some psychiatrists to have been affected by mental illness." But this is a list of people believed to have been suffering, specifically, from bipolar disorder.
You could use the Raymond Lloyd reference to justify the addition of Jesus, but I think it's a bad idea.
I am opposed to adding Jesus' name, but I personally will not remove it if you accompany it by the print-reference-citation of the Raymond Lloyd paper, as well as this link, which still seems to be live, to the online text: http://webzoom.freewebs.com/shequality/A%20Psychodynamic%20Study%20of%20Jesus.doc
Keep the other references out, they don't speak to bipolar disorder.
But if, as you say, your real point is that the other historical names should be removed, then I think adding Jesus could be considered a bad-faith edit and an example of disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point. If what you want to do is remove Beethoven et al, then remove them, don't add further dubious entries. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:32, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

There is a problem here with changing standards in society. Of all the above sources about Jesus and bipolar disorder the Raymond Llyod article is the only one to make the explicit link between Jesus and bipolar disorder. However, the other sources predate the modern definition of the disorder, but identify Jesus as suffering from mental illness, and describe symptoms that are currently associated with being bipolar.

I understand Dpbsmith's point about "bad faith edits", however I have personal issues with trying to use intent as a mesurement of the apropriateness of certain edits. If I was sole editor of this article I would not inlcude Jesus in a list of famous people who were bipolar. However I would also exclude many of the names on the current list from my ideal version. I don't understand how applying the same evidentiary standard that is used in the current article can be considered bad faith. Under the current standard, I feel that Jesus of Nazareth's name is conspicously absent.

Anyway I think for the time being I am satisfied leaving this info on the talk page. Religion is an emotional subject, and a list which implies that the central figure of one of the world's largest religions is mentally ill is bound to upset. An article that listed Jesus as mentally ill would probably provoke an endless edit war. If I get the chance I will gather some resources this weekend and heavily edit this article to bring it to a higher standard. 65.125.163.221 10:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC) p172

Miloš Kopecký, Amber Kramer

I'm removing

When someone can find a source for them, they can be reinserted. See Wikipedia's verifiability policy. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:14, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Blackie Lawless

Snipped:

This article is a "list of people accompanied by verifiable source citations associating them with bipolar disorder."

At the moment, the entry has no source citation, and has the appearance of being 83.92.180.211's personal opinion. Also, it does not say that Lawless suffers from bipolar disorder, but only that he has a "curiously bipolar pattern of writing songs." This is an interesting observation and it might turn out to be insightful—Lawless might in fact be bipolar—but without a) a source citation, b) associating them with bipolar disorder—not just a pattern of extreme moods in songs—it's not appropriate for the list. Dpbsmith (talk) 21:31, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Unsourced entries

Removed, pending someone's providing verifiable source citations. Please do not reinsert unless you can provide such a citation. Note that the Daniel Johnston article says he is bipolar, but lacks a citation. The Wikipedia articles on the others do not mention bipolar disorder. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:16, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

John Adams

Removing:

John Adams Adams frequently fell to black despair, fits of depression that were triggered usually by the onset of some illness, public criticism, or lack of recognition of his achievements. See "The Complete Book of U.S. Presidents"

If "the Complete Book of U.S. Presidents" does not use the words "bipolar" or "manic-depressive" then it is not an adequate source. We cannot take a description such as "fell into black despair" and diagnose this ourselves as "bipolar disorder." Anyone who wishes to reinsert John Adams must find a source that actually puts the label "bipolar disorder" on these fits of depression. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:13, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Meriwether Lewis

Meriwether Lewis From Night Falls Fast by Kay Jamison: "And the same bold, restless temperament that Jefferson saw in the young Meriwether Lewis can lie uneasily just this side of a restive, deadly despair." See Murder or Suicide.

This quotation does not say Lewis was bipolar. The book is about suicide, not bipolar disorder, and "restive, deadly despair" is not necessarily bipolarity. Dpbsmith (talk) 02:17, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Ulrich Stahn

Removed this as unverifiable. Possible joke/hoax prank?

Dr. Ulrich Stahn is king of bipolar world-wide scenerie; the probably last living universal genious, ask a question, he solves everything, and living hero, master of science and spiritual, real angel, father and rief, the richest man in the world, saved many souls and livings. also see his homepage about hypomanie
(URL removed because it was triggering the spam filter... it was aitch why pee oh em a en eye eee dot aitch why dot funpic dot de)

Note that there is apparently no article on him in Wikipedia. Note too that the cited page is not his personal homepage—which would not qualify as an adequate reference anyway—and has no information on bipolar disorder, but contains the single line "Frohe Weihnachten und ein gesundes Neues Jahr!" (Merry Christmas and a happy New Year), followed by an auto-redirect to an ad. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:51, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Saul the King

Removed, pending provision of a source citation:

  • Saul the King His symptoms as described in the Books of Samuel (alternating bouts of deep melancholy followed by bursts of manic rage, paranoia and agression) are consistent with bipolar illness and may offer one of history's first recorded descriptions of the disorder.

As this stands, without sources, it gives the appearance of being the opinion of 68.62.148.44, and perhaps no original research. I am not very happy about doctors' attempts to diagnose illness without an opportunity to examine the patient, but certainly this item can be included—but only if it can be shown to be from a good, verifiable published source, such as a printed book. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:34, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Here is a good source. --Max 05:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Names appearing in UNSOURCED website lists

I'm sorry, but a website that simply contains a list of UNSOURCED names cannot itself be an adequate source. These are quite likely to be names of people who do have bipolar disorder, and some digging might turn them up, but as it stands these can't go in until better sources are found. Also, please see the reliable source guidelines. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:38, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

The follow item needs some kind of verifiable reference, meeting the reliable source guidelines. At the absolute minimum, the date of the interview might make it possible for someone else to find a source.

Now sourced.

Randi Wright

No source is cited. The linked article asserts she "is bi-polar" but also cites no source for this. Reinsert only if including a source citation to a published, reliable source. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:30, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Deletion

This entire article should be deleted. Is there an article such as List of people believed to be homosexual or List of people believed to be associated with Terrorist Groups. Kyros 08:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

  • First, It was nominated for deletion but consensus for deletion was not achieved. Nominate it again if you have wish, but I think the chances of people agreeing to delete a well-referenced article is very small. Second, there certainly is a List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people . Dpbsmith (talk) 13:11, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Recent unsourced entries

It's necessary to give the source, not to say vaguely that a source is believed to exist. These can be reinserted when a specific source is found and added. Saying Sting said something "in an interview," for example, won't do; there's no way for a reader to find that interview. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:10, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Debra Lafave - Former schoolteacher who was charged with several counts of having sexual contact with a minor in Hillsborough County, Florida and Marion County, Florida. LaFave attributed her indiscretions to bipolar disorder.
  • Sting called himself manic-depressive in an interview and published a song called "Lithium Sunset"
  • Screaming Lord Sutch was revealed as having bipolar disorder after his death.
  • Michael Slater Was very open on Enough Rope with Andrew Denton regarding his experiences with Bipolar II.
  • Devin Townsend Openly speaks about his disorder, especially about its involvement in his creative process.
  • Patrick Kennedy Rep. Patrick Kennedy, 38, spent time at a drug rehabilitation clinic before he went to Providence College in Rhode Island. He has openly discussed his personal mental health problems, including having been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. Early this year he spoke about having been in recovery "for depression, for alcoholism and substance abuse."

Margaret Trudeau

I added Margaret Trudeau to the list. See http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/05/05/trudeau-depression060505.html

Good. Thanks for providing the reference. The reference belongs in the article itself, next to Trudeau's name. I've put it there for you.
You can make a link to an external web page by typing it in single brackets. Thus, if you type this:
*[[Margaret Trudeau]][http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/05/05/trudeau-depression060505.html]

you get this:

Dpbsmith (talk) 00:25, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

VIvien Leigh

Removing until someone can find a better citation:

  • Vivien Leigh — She was severely bipolar, and for a major part of her life attributed it to her birth sign, Scorpio: (quoted:) 'My birth sign is Scorpio and they eat themselves up and burn themselves out. I swing between happiness and misery. I am part prude and part nonconformist. I say what I think and I don't pretend and I am prepared to accept the consequences of my actions'; [8] "I cannot let well enough alone. I get restless. I have to be doing different things. I am a very impatient person and headstrong." [9] Biography.com profile, mentions her bipolar disorder

Unfortunately the biography.com profile is a dead link. Self-descriptions such as "I swing between happiness and misery" may suggest bipolar disorder, but could also refer to ordinary mood swings. We need a source that uses that word (or "manic-depressive.") Dpbsmith (talk) 16:32, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Gustav Mahler

Removing pending better citation:

The source is a website, "McMan's Depression and Bipolar Web." It credits no author and cites no sources. It appears to be a personal essay by someone who bases the assertion that Mahler was bipolar on his perception of the emotions expressed in Mahler's music. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:36, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Jayson Blair

Removed because of lack of source citation. Dpbsmith (talk) 18:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Addition to BP List

Any listing of historical figures who suffered with bipolar disorder is supposition by necessity. There can be no offical diagnosis of someone who existed before BP was identified. However, there are people who have well-documented lives, who most definately exhibited BP features. One addition to the list is Abraham Lincoln, whom I have seen listed elsewhere.

Jeff Buckley

Removing

  • Jeff Buckley according to The biography Dream Brother written about him and his father Tim Buckley, the night before his drowning, he admitted to several loved ones that he suffered from bipolar disorder.

because a Google Books search did not find the word "bipolar" in the book: [10]

If reinserting, please cite the page number and quote the exact words used by the book. Dpbsmith (talk) 09:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

P. S. a9 search shows "No references to bipolar inside this book." Dpbsmith (talk) 10:02, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Cletus T. Judd

I'd like to see a better reference than a redlink to the name of an album. Actually, I'd like to see one that meets the guidelines for reliable sources, which doesn't say anything about music albums.

At the very least, I'd like to have it be perfectly clear on how he "references his diagnosis."

If it says this in the album notes, I'd like to see the recording company that produced the album, and its catalog number, the author of the liner notes, and an actual quotation instead of just the indirect statement that he "references his diagnosis."

References in the song lyrics would certainly not be acceptable, since there is never any way to be sure whether they're intended to be literal, nonfictional references to the singer's life or not. Johnny Cash was never incarcerated in Folsom Prison... Dpbsmith (talk) 09:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

David Musgrove

Removing

  • David Musgrove He tried to explain in to his mother, but she didn't care to listen.

until someone cares to supply a source. Dpbsmith (talk) 15:51, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Courtney Love: Page reference to Brite book, please

Recently added:

  • Courtney Love - frontwoman of rock band 'Hole'. Actress. Model. Widow of Kurt Cobain. Confessed to being bipolar in her biography written by Poppy Z. Brite, also in interviews and implied in songs. She herself linked it to her 'on-going troubled years' of childhood where she shifted from boarding schools across the globe, this 'plauging behaviour' of hers haunted her even in her fame.

The book in question is presumably Brite, Poppy Z. (1998). Courtney Love: The Real Story. Simon and Schuster: Touchstone Editions. ISBN 0684848007.. However, since the person adding the item did not give a page reference, and since an Amazon "search inside this book" search for "bipolar" and for "manic-depressive" did not yield any results, I'm moving this here until someone can give a page number and a quotation. Dpbsmith (talk) 15:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Jimi Hendrix

OK, I'm pulling this entry. It's not misleading as written, but it's been there too long without anyone adding any real sources.

  • Jimi Hendrix appears on many lists of famous people with bipolar disorder: Mental Health Today added him to their list, Bipolar World added him as well. This is probably due mostly to his song named "Manic Depression" which starts with "Manic depression is touching my soul" and ends with "Manic depression is a frustrating mess". His behavior later in life also suggested episodes of confusion and depression. It is possible that his behavior was only due to the drug abuse that brought his death, but if he didn't have Bipolar Disorder, the chances are that he at least believed he had it.

Unfortunately, the lists at Mental Health Today and Bipolar World are casual and don't cite sources. Mental Health Today simply lists his name with no explanation. Bipolar World gives a capsule biography which conspicuously fails to say in so many words that he was bipolar or manic-depressive.

Song titles and lyrics do not count. Johnny Cash was never in Folsom Prison, Eric Clapton never shot a sheriff, and the lyrics to "I Get a Kick Out of You" are not good evidence that Cole Porter a) used cocaine, or b) failed to get a kick from it.

What's needed is a source citation from something meeting the reliable source guidelines that says, in so many words, "Hendrix was bipolar" or "Hendrix was manic-depressive." Moody, wild, suicidal do not equal bipolar, and song lyrics are not factual biography. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

And ditto Sting: just because you have written a song with "lithium" in its title does not necessarily mean that you are a manic depressive. -- The Anome 13:55, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

The actual story behind the song was printed in the liner notes for the mid-90s CD re-release of whichever album it's off (Are You Experienced? I think). Jimi was looking tired and worn-out during a press conference. His manager at the time, Chas Chandler, made an off-the-cuff comment to the effect of "You look like a manic-depressive housewife." Jimi wrote the song based around that comment. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that he was bipolar, so it's only right that he be taken out. Any arguments from his behaviour are mere POV.

Removed Phil Spector

I removed the following:

  • Phil Spector Self-described as follows: "I would say I'm probably relatively insane, to an extent… I take medication for schizophrenia, but I wouldn't say I'm schizophrenic. But I have a bipolar personality, which is strange." [11]

This is a special case, because, although he considers himself to have a "bipolar personality", his doctors, who are treating him for schizophrenia, clearly don't: although some symptoms can overlap between the disorders, the two diagnoses, and their overall clinical syndromes, are mutually exclusive. -- The Anome 13:53, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

On balance I don't think this entry belongs. However, since the quotation makes the situation clear and is referenced, I didn't think there was much harm in leaving it in. That is, there is in fact a source citation that shows that Spector is a person believed to have been affected by bipolar disorder... by himself. Dpbsmith (talk) 14:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Removed Datta Shalini

... as no source was provided. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:21, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Yet more unsourced entries removed

See this diff: [12] -- note that I have not removed Baudelaire, just removed a duplication, and sorted him to the right place in the listing. -- The Anome 13:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Courtney Love

I've removed the following as unsourced:

  • Courtney Love ,Musician,Actress,Author. Best known as the singer/songwriter for Hole (band), and as the widow of singer/songwriter Kurt Cobain. Quoted saying "Ive been known to be a bit mad" "I have manic episodes" on a documentary.

Although it offers self-describing quotes, this entry does not offer a source for them, so we can't include this here. -- The Anome 14:12, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Marilyn Monroe

The cited source is "McMan's Depression and Bipolar Web." The article has no identifiable author, and is excessively vague about citing sources of its own. It seems to be based on an AMC television bio. It is not at all clear whether the program really says in so many words that she had bipolar disorder, or who, exactly, said so. Phrases such as "Only Marilyn’s bipolar could explain the incredible and unpredictable ups and downs that governed her final days and resulted in her tragic ending" put me on my guard. It does say that "The AMC documentary very clearly let viewers know that Marilyn suffered from bipolar disorder, with testimony from her personal physician and with reference to her institutionalized mother," but, again, it does not name either her physician or her mother or give their words. If Monroe's physician were named and quoted as saying "She had bipolar disorder" that of course would be fine. (But if she had a physician who had diagnosed bipolar disorder why wasn't her physician treating her for it?)

If it's widely acknowledged that Monroe was bipolar, there ought to be a better source somewhere. Dpbsmith (talk) 21:20, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Robert Munsch best selling children's author, storyteller

(UTC)Robert Munsch has spoken openly about his bipolar disorder in several articles. The article sourced here is The Boy Inside the Man see [13]--Story.lady 13:16, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Trent Reznor

Removed from the list, yet again. Singing songs which might plausibly be interpreted to be about bipolar disorder is not the same as having it. As Dpbsmith said above, song titles and lyrics do not count; Johnny Cash was never in Folsom Prison, Eric Clapton never shot a sheriff. -- The Anome 09:40, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Shalini Datta

I've removed the following entry:

"Shalini Datta, the famous Indian dancer stated in an interview that she had bipolar disorder The Telegraph 24th May 1989"

There is no article for a person of that name, and Google searches for '"Shalini Datta" dancer' and '"Shalini Datta" bipolar' find no relevant links other than mirrors of this list. -- The Anome 08:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Kristy McNichol

I've removed the following entry:

Kristy McNichol, actress. The former child star and teen idol left the show Empty Nest due to her battle with the depression. McNichol later returned to the show for a few episodes during the series' last season. [14]

Although the cited article describes her as having experienced manic depression, there is no evidence that she has ever spoken about this herself, and thus she cannot be included in this list. -- The Anome 07:53, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Phil Ochs

Removed from the list:

Phil Ochs, folk/topical singer from the 60's and early 70's. Towards the end of career he began to show erratic behaviour and had an alter ego, John Butler Train. The disorder ended with him hanging himself in 1976.

This needs a verifiable cite before it can be restored to the article. In addition, the detail about an "alter ego" is peculiar, and appears to have no bearing on whether or not Ochs was bipolar. -- Karada 11:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Brad Jordan

Removed from the list:

  • Brad Jordan, rapper (in the 2nd verse of "Born Killer" he says that he suffers from Manic Depression) [15]

As stated several subheadings above, song lyrics, even when written in the first person, are not necessarily autobiographical. -- Karada 11:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Chopin

Removed from the list:

  • Fredric Chopin, composer. Diaries and letters to friends describe intense depressive episodes characterized by psychotic features, alternating with spurts of unparalleled creativity.

Fascinating if true, but without a citation to a published version of the diaries, we can't put it in this list: cite, please? -- Karada 12:14, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Bill Lichtenstein

I removed Bill Lichtenstein from this list: although a cite is given, it's unclear as to whether the notability criteria are otherwise satisfied; is there any other evidence for notability other than this one mention in an article? -- The Anome 19:03, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Robbie Williams

Robbie Williams needs to be removed from this list. The very documentary that's mentioned stated that he had NEVER been diagnosed as BiPolar, just as having depression. He then went on to say that any "manic" signs people may see in him are just a stage persona.I have no idea how to remove it, so if somebody could that would be good —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.43.3 (talk) 21:34, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Gabe Race

  • Hi These Ae Some Legit Reasons Why I Think Gabe Race Should Be In List Of People Affected By Bipolar Disorder.
According To My Reasearch Gabe Race Is One of The Most Affected By This Horribal Disorder And He takes It Very Well In An Interview With Health Line Gabe Quoted "Not Having Much Problems With This Disorder"And Says "God Gives You A Glitch,He Can't Fix It So Just Live With It"This Guy Seem Pretty Alright With Bipolar From What You heard There I Mean Its Pretty Reasonable That He Learned To LIve With It Pretty Legit This Is Why I Think He Should Be On.--Monkey_dude117 3:24 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Monkey_Dude, sorry, but that's not enough to merit inclusion on this page. -- The Anome 14:10, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Gilgamesh

Removed from the list:


At the moment, this entry appears to fail the Google test, and I can't verify the source. Can someone provide a cite for this that can actually be looked up, either on the Internet or in a library, so we can validate it? -- The Anome 18:08, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Britney Spears

TMZ states that she is currently taking medication for BiPolar Disorder, but this does not mean that she has it, many people just think it is the paparazzi that are causing this. If she says that she has it, it is not proof as there is no way to test her for it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.165.43.217 (talk) 10:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The only source for this is TMZ, which isn't enough since the website tmz is not a doctor as far as I know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.178.223.233 (talk) 19:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

  • A verifiable source is a verifiable source. The requirement is that the reader know where the information came from; that the source is a good, publicly available reference that a reader can check, to see the exact words the source uses and the context in which it uses them; and that the source be identified well enough for the reader to judge its reliability. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:54, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Notice in every section

It's is simply not needed. All additions can be easily removed. No need to restate Wikipedia's policy that many times. I have the page watchlisted, so I'll keep an eye on future additions. hmwithτ 20:42, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Considering the amount of crap these lists get it definitely is needed. Many other of these lists also have a warning. Perhaps the same shorter warning could be used here. "Note: Please cite sources when adding entries to this list, unsourced entries will be removed". Garion96 (talk) 20:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
That's much better. Thanks for your helpful compromise. hmwithτ 04:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Kurt Cobain

He used to have a small section on this page what happened? Come to think of it what happened to the c section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SLTS91 (talk • contribs) 01:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Craig Owens

Craig Owens (musician) was added to this list without a cite to reliable sources. Since he is a living person, WP:BLP applies. What appears to be his blog has an entry attesting to this, but it's a primary source. We should at least have a reliable secondary source for confirmation before we can add this person. -- The Anome (talk) 01:39, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

David Strickland

  • David Strickland was also listed here without any information from reliable sources. I've removed the entry until the necessary information has been supplied. -- The Anome (talk) 17:08, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Edward Renehan

I've removed the following, since there's no article on this person:

  • Edward Renehan, author and musician, outed himself as bipolar/manic depressive in January 2008.[1]

If this person meets the WP:BIO notability criteria, can someone please create the article, and then re-add the entry? -- The Anome (talk) 22:05, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

George Cantor

Would he be a good entry? Any published diagnosis? ----Tellerman

I'd consider Cantor to be a dead ringer for having had bipolar disorder: his obsession with the unknowable, increasing religiosity, and eventual death in an asylum, all form a consistent picture. A bit of web browsing suggests that I'm not the only person to have had this idea. However, I can't find any published source that agrees with me on this, so he has to stay out. -- The Anome 13:44, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Update: Cantor's now fully cited, so he's in. -- The Anome 15:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Re what The Anome wrote: The "unknowable" ??? Admittedly, infinity is a mysterious and arcane concept, but a HUGE amount (no pun intended) is in fact known about it. So it is far from "unknowable".Daqu (talk) 05:03, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Usefulness of this list

This list in itself is of questionable use. While it seems that some users may wish to know about famous people that have this disorder, it ends up being just another list without any real merit. I was also under the impression that lists in Wikipedia were looked down upon. Could someone possibly enlighten me as to this situation? MDAmp 14:25, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

As Wikipedia speaks to a huge quantity of people, why does it include such a silly and biaised list. Most people with Bipolar Disorder experience protracted illness that in all-invasive and not as amenable to medication or therapy as most people who might read this list would like to think. Jane Pauley and Dr. Jamison love to talk about their experience with this illness, but does that speak to a wider public of Bipolar patients who can no longer work, and lead lives very different than the ones before they were diagnosed. A list like this that does not include a disclaimer about self-diagnosis and the contemporary celebrities listed, or links to pages that explain what happens to the "common" man with the disease, simply should not be in an encyclopedia of unbiased fact. Lancebergstrom 02:51, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

What does happen to the "common" man with bipolar disorder, then? -- Karada 20:56, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I found this list very helpful. As a "common man" with ultradian bipolar disorder, I was able to see similarities between my own experiences and the biographies of some of these high-profile celebrities and historical figures. It gave me some clarity on my situation. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedic resource of knowledge, why would lists such as this not be useful? 98.193.158.96 (talk) 22:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Say, isn't this article kind of mean spirited and libelous?24.21.101.33 (talk) 09:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

No. I have Bipolar and it's comforting to find out that people whom I admire have shared my painful experiences (remember, loneliness is a symptom of depressive periods in BP). The article only includes living people who have chosen to publicly state their afflictions, and as far as the deceased, having BP is more important toward academic pursuit in understanding the disorder than it is "embarrassing" or whatever it is you think that people with it may feel. Leopold Stotch (talk) 18:39, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not wikipedia's place to say what knowledge is "useful." Simple as that. Jjmckool (talk) 17:21, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I strongly agree with whoever started this section, questioning whether this list is useful as regards persons who lived a long time ago. Most important, I think there is very little way to confirm that the list contains accurate information where persons of the distant past are concerned.

Someone said that it's not Wikipedia's place to determine whether information is useful. Maybe so, but it is obviously Wikipedia's place to determine whether information is accurate (or can be verified to be accurate) -- and if information cannot be verified to be accurate, I claim that it is not useful.

Well, the fact that some psychological professional wrote in some publication that they believe that famous person X of the distant past was bipolar is of astonishingly little value, information-wise. There may be a few cases where we have enough reliable information about that person's behavior to make a well-informed diagnosis. But in the vast majority of cases involving someone who lived before the concept of manic-depressive or bipolar even existed -- I believe that it is almost impossible, even for a certified professional psychologist or psychiatrist, to reach back into the past and make an reliable diagnosis.Daqu (talk) 05:19, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Sinatra

Removed from the article:

  • Frank Sinatra, American singer and actor. He was telling in an interview in the 1950s: "Being an 18-karat manic-depressive, and having lived a life of violent emotional contradictions, I have an over-acute capacity for sadness as well as emotion." (Anthony Summers, Robbyn Swan, Sinatra: The Life, 2005, ISBN 0385609248 ; p. 218.)

This is cited, and looks pretty much like a self-declaration of bipolar disorder, but it also could just be a figure of speech; is there any other evidence for Sinatra having been bipolar? -- The Anome (talk) 22:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

More on this: http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/news/scorsese-to-direct-frank-sinatra-biopic-1003972860.story states "His personal life was just as eventful. He suffered from depression and a bipolar disorder[...]"; but this is not sourced to anywhere else. -- The Anome (talk) 23:00, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Pronouncements by non-experts are always dubious. If Sinatra said he was diagnosed as manic-depressive, that would carry more weight. Binksternet (talk) 15:00, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Touched with Fire

Considering this article's bold new name I believe we should dispense with the Touched with fire entries, as these diagnoses were often made by the author, not by contemporaries. LukeSurl t c 18:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

All TWF and references to TWF have been removed. The source itself is suspect, and some of the assertions patently absurd, not to mention just plain wrong. Also, in keeping with the spirit of the page (which I personally nominated for deletion, BTW), the assertions made by the author are original research, violating WP:OR and themselves not derived from credible sources.
Finally, the inclusion of a link to the a purchase site for the book smacks of self-promotion, and violates WP:NPOV. --DashaKat 02:15, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I've restored the TWF entries.
  • Jamison is one of the world's leading experts on bipolar disorder, so if we are going to use anyone's retroactive diagnoses, we might as well use hers. In effect, we are using Jamison as an authority for those entries, and explicitly saying so by citing "TWF" as a source. Feel free to mentally add the words "According to Professor Jamison..." before each entry, if that makes it easier. Jamison makes clear and cogent cases for her diagnoses, which are in many cases obvious even to the non-expert: are you really suggesting that Byron was not bipolar?
  • Having "personally nominated" an article for AfD does not give you any special authority over that article, particularly when the AfD decision was "keep". Whittling away at the content of an article until it's gone may seem like an attractive alternative to a successful AfD, but is generally frowned upon.
In addition:
  • TWF is not "original research" in the sense of Wikipedia's original research policy.
  • The NPOV policy is about the Neutral Point of View, not conflict of interest or self-promotion
  • In any case, Professor Jamison did not make those entries herself, so this cannot be "self-promotion"
  • I can't see any link to a "book purchase site", other than the normal Wikipedia ISBN page that is linked from any ISBN citation -- citing an ISBN is good citation practice, not commercial promotion.
-- Karada 11:45, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm removing once again all the TWF entries. The long-dead people that the author 'diagnoses' may have had mood swings, they may have had depression, but there can never be any certainty that they were bipolar. Editors trying to add these people to Category:People with bipolar disorder have been turned back by expert editors at each of the target articles, so the only place they appear to have bipolar disorder is here on this page, not over at their own articles. I'm taking that consensus and applying it here, as well as some common sense, to remove from the list all sufferers who could not have been diagnosed by a modern clinician. What we need for those entries is a List of people who may have had bipolar disease... Binksternet (talk) 15:41, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Or List of people who may have been affected by bipolar disorder. Or List of people who Kay Redfield Jamison has assessed as bipolar... Binksternet (talk) 21:03, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Bipolar I or II? Or what about cyclothymia, for that matter?

Shouldn't there be a differentiation between the various points on the bipolar spectrum? The difference between bipolar I and the other subtypes is very substantial (i.e. psychosis). --209.89.155.96 (talk) 12:25, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Most people who publicly state that they have bipolar disorder don't make that information public. Cyclothymia, although a mood disorder on the bipolar spectrum [16], is not, as far as I know, officially a subtype of clinical bipolar disorder. -- The Anome (talk) 12:53, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Whether cyclothymia is "officially" a chronic bipolar disorder depends on who is making the distinction. Nonetheless, it is absurd to categorize all forms of bipolar disorder together in a list like this. They aren't the same condition at all. --209.89.155.96 (talk) 15:35, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
Actually they're pretty similar compared to, say, diabetes. Leopold Stotch (talk) 07:14, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
That's "officially" in the sense of either the DSM-IV-TR or ICD-10, which, as far as I know, are the nearest things we have to "official", "authoritative", (whatever that means) standards in this area. -- The Anome (talk) 18:06, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Virginia Woolf

Virginia Woolf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.254.24.56 (talk) 20:37, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Virginia Woolf was also diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder. Why isn't she in the list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.254.24.56 (talk) 20:35, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Here's a psychology site to add the citation. I don't see why she's not on here either. http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/161/5/809 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.186.41.44 (talk) 12:34, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Ben Stiller

Ben Stiller stated in GQ ([17]): "I have not been an easygoing guy. I think it's called bipolar manic depression. I've got a rich history of that in my family." It should be said in the introduction on whether or not professional diagnosis is a requirement for inclusion. I think it absolutely should be. –Scarce ✉ 18:05, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Self-diagnosis should not stand. We have been including statements such as "I was diagnosed as bipolar" but not "I think I am bipolar". Binksternet (talk) 18:17, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

William Styron

William Styron, Darkness Visible

Njabulo1441 (talk) 20:53, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

As far as I can see from a Google book search, Styron's book is about unipolar depression, and explicitly not bipolar disorder. See page 38, around the words "manic type -- the one with euphoric highs -- which would have most probably presented itself earlier in my life" and also this search: http://books.google.com/books?q=The+depression+that+engulfed+me+was+not+of+the+manic+type
See here for a longer quote of the same passage, reading ""The depression that engulfed me was not of the manic type - the one accompanied by euphoric highs - which would have most probably presented itself earlier in my life. I was 60 when the illness struck for the first time, in the `unipolar' form, which leads straight down.-- The Anome (talk) 11:28, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Kurt Vonnegut

I think this is a mistake. The Vonnegut with likely bipolar disorder is Kurt's son Mark, as explained in the Wikipedia article about him. The footnoted reference page does not load but when I looked it up on the Wayback machine I found early and late versions of the linked page that both had lists of people with "Depression or Bipolar Disorder." Kurt's depression is a bit more widely known. Thus, I doubt there ever was an original source for Kurt Vonnegut's inclusion in this list. It must have simply been a misinterpretation. Can anyone think of a reason why we shouldn't remove his name? Should we replace it with Mark? Ph7five (talk) 20:37, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Stephen Fry

British Comedian and actor. He himself has said so in public. Stephen Fry —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.200.240.203 (talk) 17:27, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 24.155.244.97, 10 June 2010

{{editsemiprotected}}

Hemingway, Ernest - foremost American writer of the 20th Century.

24.155.244.97 (talk) 05:46, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

 Not done source please. CTJF83 pride 06:31, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Hemingway now added, with two sources: a book, and an academic paper. More are available, if needed. -- The Anome (talk) 18:21, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
I think we have to be very careful about this. In fact Hemingway was never diagnosed as bi-polar during his lifetime. His mental illness may have been caused by a number of mitigating factors such as a rare genetic disorder and an inordinate number of head injuries. In my view the sources\ simply suggest the possiblity of the condition without confirming. Additionally, his alcoholism was an another factor, and in my view, in retrospect a person can only guess but wouldn't know for certain whether or not the diagnosis is accurate. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:44, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Abraham Lincoln

  • Hi, I will be glad if someone would be able to help me.

I'm doing a work to the university, psychology, about Abraham Lincoln and his bipolar disorder, I don't talk English too well, I just have to know what is the source for you to know he had the bipolar disorder. thanks!! tamar

  • See Lincoln's Melancholy: How Depression Challenged a President and Fueled His Greatness, by Joshua Wolf Shenk (2005) ISBN 978-0-618-77344-2, ISBN 0-618-77344-4 (cloth & paper). His diagnosis is major depression rather than bipolar disorder. --Halcatalyst 22:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Lincoln was a depressive, not Bipolar. --DashaKat 02:17, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Really? I've read and heard that he was bipolar, and he was often described as having a dark "melancholia," which was the contemporary term for what was later called manic-depression and is now called bipolar disorder. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peterwigginout (talk • contribs) 23:33, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Frank Sinatra

Billboard, in an article about a forthcoming biopic, states that the late Frank Sinatra was bipolar: see http://www.billboard.com/news/scorsese-to-direct-frank-sinatra-biopic-1003972860.story#/news/scorsese-to-direct-frank-sinatra-biopic-1003972860.story

Throughout his life, Sinatra had mood swings and bouts of depression. He acknowledged this, telling an interviewer in the 1950s: "Being an 18-karat manic-depressive, and having lived a life of violent emotional contradictions, I have an over-acute capacity for sadness as well as elation. (Summers, Anthony; Swan, Robbyn (2005). Sinatra: The Life. New York: Alfred A. Knopf. p. 218. ISBN 0-375-41400-2.) In her memoirs My Father's Daughter, his daughter Tina wrote about the "eighteen-karat" remark: "As flippant as Dad could be about his mental state, I believe that a Zoloft a day might have kept his demons away. But that kind of medicine was decades off."(Sinatra, Tina; Coplon, Jeff (2000). My Father's Daughter: A Memoir. New York: Simon & Schuster. p. 47. ISBN 0-684-87076-2.)

Kitty Kelley also refers to him as having manic phases in her book His Way: The Unauthorized Biography of Frank Sinatra: "In his manic phase, Frank seemed like the greatest Italian host since Lorenzo de Medici. He spent money lavishly, wining and dining his friends with unstinting generosity, flying them around the world in his private plane..." (Kelley, Kitty (1986). His Way: Unauthorised Biography of Frank Sinatra. New York: Bantam Press. ISBN 9780593011324., page 337 according to a Google Book search, although the text does not appear in the displayed snippet)

I wonder if this is sufficient to justify a listing in this article? -- The Anome (talk) 08:50, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

David Walliams

David Walliams has publicly stated himself to both suffer from major depression and be a manic depressive ... http://www.mirror.co.uk/celebs/news/2009/09/27/walliams-brand-is-trisexual-115875-21703119/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/4743574/Comic-Walliams-speaks-of-depression-battle.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Princecamp (talk • contribs) 16:38, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Helpertoall, 8 May 2011

Remove Patrick Stump from the list. Source refers to his bandmate Pete Wentz. There is no evidence to suggest Patrick Stump has bipolar disorder. Helpertoall (talk) 17:16, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Done agreed. Elizium23 (talk) 19:18, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Edgar Allan Poe

Just wanted to let people know... within the Poe scholarly community, Poe having any kind of mental illness is considered ridiculous. Depression, bipolar disorder, drug addiction, serious alcoholism and even suicidal tendencies have systematically been ruled out in the past 100 years. This page only perpetuates ridiculous rumors that are no longer respected. I'd remove Poe's name myself but it is sourced. --Midnightdreary (talk) 10:44, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Although Poe's works certainly seem to me to be compatible with his having bipolar disorder, I'm no expert on Poe, and we can only go by the opinions of cited sources. Can you provide any citable references to reliable resources that state that he did not have bipolar disorder? If so, we might be able to modify or remove the entry. -- The Anome (talk) 13:37, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Should I have to have sources that say he did not have bipolar disorder? Does every biography have to say whether or not someone had or did not have bipolar disorder? My suggestion would be to add the word "speculative" or "speculated" next to Poe's entry. In fact, it seems like many of the names listed here rely on a single source - one which is made clear in the article is not very reliable. As a side note, I'd suggest that his work seeming compatible probably only shows a limited understanding of the full breadth of his works. No offense is meant but, frankly, few people know Poe for the majority of his work but instead only for a small portion. --Midnightdreary (talk) 21:06, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
There's already a general disclaimer at the top of the list which might address your concerns above, saying:
Many of the older cases are speculations, based on their biographies rather than an actual medical diagnosis, and in many cases are not widely accepted by historians, biographers, or physicians.
You said above that "within the Poe scholarly community, Poe having any kind of mental illness is considered ridiculous". Since these are scholarly opinions, presumably they have been published, so it's not unreasonable to ask for a cite. There's no need for these cites to specifically say he didn't have bipolar disorder; just to support your assertion above. -- The Anome (talk) 23:12, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
I guess my point is that it's not often that a scholar writes about something that does not exist. Poe probably didn't have an ingrown toenail, for example, but I'd be hard-pressed to find a source that says so. Regarding, the disclaimer at the top of the page, it seems the majority of this article is based on the one source which already is disclaimed as coming from a less than reliable source. Anyway, I will try to find a source (though I'm already knee-deep in other projects now). When I do, does that source mean I should remove the name, or does that mean I should add a footnote but leave the speculative unreliable sourced reference to Poe in? --Midnightdreary (talk) 03:04, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I've just found a second source that asserts that Poe was bipolar: see [18], so that makes two published sources. If you can find a cite that a significant number of published sources dispute or dismiss this idea, please add that to the reference on the page, and mark it as disputed. -- The Anome (talk) 05:43, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Update: I've found two more sources that are not simple recyclings of Jamison: see [19] from Edgar Allan Poe: Rhetoric and Style by Brett Zimmerman, published by McGill-Queen's Press - MQUP, 2005, (quote, from p.177: "...when the former was in one of his black moods - evidence supporting (in part) the theory that Poe was manic-depressive (see also Ostrom 404, 437)" and the Collected Works of Edgar Allan Poe by Thomas Ollive Mabbott, Eleanor D Kewer, Maureen C Mabbott, Page 561, Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1969, says "Poe certainly had manic and depressive periods". -- The Anome (talk) 06:00, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Update 2: Here's one more, via Google Books: Life and Letters and the London Mercury: An International Monthly of Living, Published by Brendin Pub. Co., 1929 (v.2 1929 Jan-Jun, p.171): "Poe, like Nietzsche, was a manic-depressive; and his existence followed a comparable course." (p.172, a fragment of which is visible in the Google Books snippet view, refers to manic-depression again, and appears from context also to be about Poe, but I can't confirm this because I don't have direct access to the source.) This is particularly interesting, since it can't possibly be derivative of Jamison's research on Poe. -- The Anome (talk) 06:46, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
You've found mostly old sources and newer sources that perpetuate the rumors without doing research of their own. As a Poe scholar myself, I'll note that the problem with Poe "research" is that most writers start with an agenda - to make Poe look like a tragic character. Most of their evidence dates back to his first biographer in 1850, Rufus Wilmot Griswold. It's more complicated than you can imagine. --Midnightdreary (talk) 12:32, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I can recommend this, if you like: the number one, most-trusted source of Poe scholarly work is the Edgar Allan Poe Society. I recommend doing a Google search through their domain and trying to find "bipolar" or "bipolarism". Obviously, the truth is that we can never be sure about this, partly due to the lack of psychologists in Poe's day, and because of the ridiculously overwhelming abundance of autobiographical literary criticism that exists today - all based on a relative handful of Poe works. Thanks for discussing this, by the way. --Midnightdreary (talk) 12:52, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
The term "Bipolar disorder" was coined in 1957, and became widely used only recently. there are plenty of search resuls for depression and mania on [www.eapoe.org]. Some of the results for mania come from the phrase "mania potu" i.e. delirium tremens, but in some cases, it clearly means mania, like in this letter. Excerpt :

[Text: Edgar Allan Poe to James Russell Lowell - July 2, 1844.]

New-York, July 2. 44.

My Dear Mr Lowell,

I can feel for the "constitutional indolence" of which you complain --for it is one of my own besetting sins. I am excessively slothful, and wonderfully industrious--by fits. There are epochs when any kind of mental exercise is torture, and when nothing yields me pleasure but solitary communion with the "mountains & the woods"-- the "altars" of Byron. I have thus rambled and dreamed away whole months, and awake, at last, to a sort of mania for composition. Then I scribble all day, and read all night, so long as the disease endures. This is also the temperament of P. P. Cooke, of V the author of "Florence Vane", "Young Rosalie Lee", & some other sweet poems-- and I should not be surprised if it were your own. Cooke writes and thinks as you--and I have been told that you resemble him personally.

While this is (my) original research in this case, this kind of first hand account leaves little doubts regarding a bipolar disorder diagnosis. I assume that the opinion of published sources is based on this kind of testimony.--139.165.32.56 (talk) 11:25, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Now that is unequivocally a self-description of the symptoms of bipolar disorder. Since we have five apparently independent reliable sources that say Poe was bipolar, in addition to the first-person evidence above (which we can leave to the reader to interpret) I think we can now firmly put Poe in this list. If other authorities say Poe was not bipolar, I think we need actual cites from them explicitly saying things like "Poe was not bipolar".
Incidentally, this [20], from another one of Poe's letters, is an excellent description of the experience of the depressive phase. -- The Anome (talk) 11:54, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
I see nothing in that letter that can be described "unequivocally" as bipolar disorder. People need to understand that Poe scholarship is highly controversial and comes in two types: true scholarship (the rare kind) and mass-market scholarship (the kind that perpetuates all the stuff that makes Poe "cool", like he was crazy, or manic-depressive). As a true Poe scholar myself, I am personally hurt, dismayed, and disappointed to continuously see these sorts of things perpetuated. Again, I should point out that a true Poe scholar does not usually write a biography with the lines, "by the way, Poe was not bipolar", just as they don't write, "by the way, Poe was not a woman" or "Poe was not from California". Find any of those lines in a biography of people who are known not to be bipolar, not to be women, and not to be from California, and I'd be impressed that the author wasted ink. Ah well... I can only object so much as I can tell it falls on deaf ears. --Midnightdreary (talk) 14:07, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
Believe me, that's a self-description of bipolar disorder: clinical depression with mental anguish and retarded prouctivity, (hypo)mania with increased intellectual productivity, cyclicity, insomnia in the up-phase. Although both mania and depression can have other causes, the cyclicity, changes in productivity, and insomnia clinch the identification as bipolar disorder. It's as clear as if Poe had listed the symptoms of diabetes (excessive urination, thirst, sweet-tasting urine, blurred vision, weight loss, lethargy) or tuberculosis (cough, bloody mucus, fatigue, night sweats, weight loss, fever). Moreover, it was written 40 80 years prior to the invention of the clinical concept of manic-depression by Emil Kraepelin in the 1880's 1919, so it's unlikely that Poe is adopting this self-description as some kind of affectation of glamorous romantic madness.
Jamison provides numerous other quotes from Poe's personal writings that appear to confirm this characterization: see Touched With Fire for detailed references.
Now we combine this with multiple references from published reliable sources characterizing Poe as bipolar, including the opinion of one of the world's leading experts on bipolar disorder, and we definitely have enough evidence to put Poe on this list.
I don't see how any of this makes Poe "cool"; bipolar disorder is an unpleasant chronic condition that's not much fun for anyone involved. If, as you say, this is a commonly-repeated mistaken slur on Poe retailed by mass-market scholarship, I would expect that it would be easy to find a citable debunking of this by reputable Poe scholars setting the record straight. For instance, if (to use your example) popular mass-market scholarship wrongly asserted that Poe was a woman, I would be very surprised not to be able to find a paper in a scholarly journal with words to the effect that Poe was not--as commonly supposed--a woman, with copious references to back up that assertion. -- The Anome (talk) 20:04, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
The letter to Lowell was describing his method of writing (ever heard of writer's block?), not his daily life. The "cool" assessment relates to the Rufus Wilmot Griswold article (Even so, Griswold's attempts only drew attention to Poe's work; readers were thrilled at the idea of reading the works of an "evil" man. - Regardless of the specific mental illness, the idea is that someone who wrote scary stories must have some kind of tragedy in his own life to make his works that much more authentic; the claim has been made for 150+ years). Truth be told, I have done little work to find sources to dispute this; bipolarism, schizophrenia, depression, drug addiction, suicidal tendencies... you can find sources that back up any of these assertions. Or, you can write a biography that just gives the facts, and none of them are included. I recently had a visitor ask, "Why doesn't this video mention Poe's drug addiction?" And my answer was, "Why would it? He wasn't addicted to drugs." Anyway, keep on fighting this and you'll notice that I have not made any attempt to remove Poe from this list. --Midnightdreary (talk) 21:17, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate that. I'd also appreciate any sources you could provide to support your position: the aim in this list is to reflect the opinions of reliable sources, rather than to push any given point of view. -- The Anome (talk) 21:27, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
No problem. For right now, everything related to Poe in the article perfectly follows Wiki-policy so I'm backing off. If I find anything, I'll come back. Thanks for the collaboration! --Midnightdreary (talk) 23:42, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
I am astonished at the megalomania of people who think they can make an affirmative diagnosis of bipolar disorder from a 145-word paragraph of a letter. I suppose anyone whose work habits alternate between intense focus and periods of lethargy is automatically bipolar, right? By the way, I made my affirmative diagnosis of megalomania from your brief posts to this section of this talk page. But don't worry, I'm a Ph.D.Daqu (talk) 07:53, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Edgar Allan Poe was not bipolar. Every single credible source ever written about him or by him does not say anything or suggests anything that pertains to bipolar disorder. Not one fact suggests that he was bipolar. A expert from a random letter is not a credible or factual source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.28.185 (talk) 07:01, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit request, Edgar Allan Poe is not bipolar, the sources are not credible sources

The sources are vague speculations coming from sources that are not credible. Putting him on this page fuels the stupid image that pop culture has created that he was this crazy out of control person with a bunch of mental illnesses, etc. He was actually very well disciplined and calculated. His erratic behavior in his life was due to the death of his wife, drinking, and his many stressfull finiancial troubles.

We should take a vote or something because as someone who reads a lot of Edgar Allan Poe, this really bothers me as a lot of people I would think would see this page if they are researching bipolar disorder.

We generally don't do votes on Wikipedia. I have looked at the sources, and they appear quite credible. However, they all are based on reading his works and not by qualified doctors. If you wish to draw additional editors here, you can make an RfC. I will make a change to the article, but will not remove Poe's name right now. Quinxorin (talk) 07:19, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Russell Brand

British comedian has said in his autobiography that he has bipolar disorder. See http://www.thecnj.com/review/2007/122007/books122007_02.html?headline=Won_over_by_an_idiot_who%E2%80%99s_interesting — Preceding unsigned comment added by Miightyhawk (talk • contribs) 15:30, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from KevinNalty, 17 September 2011

Hi it's Kevin Nalty, one of YouTube's most viewed comedians (source: youtube.com/nalts) and author of "Beyond Viral." (source www.beyondviral.com). I'm "coming out" as I've been recently diagnosed with bipolar and want to help normalize it for others... Would you please add me? I'm not as "famous" as some, but more than others (quarter billion views is more than many TV shows get). Potential copy: "Kevin Nalty is one of the most-viewed online-video comedians and an author. Source: http://willvideoforfood.com/about-nalts/ (I just added that I've got bipolar in the "about" section of this page). My wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Nalty Thanks. It's hard to accept and go public with this, but I know it's good. If you want to e-mail me to confirm: kevinnalty@gmail.com

KevinNalty (talk) 21:44, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

 Not done Unfortunately unless you can provide suitable, secondary source, independent and reliable references for this assertion, then it will not be suitable for inclusion. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. If you need any further clarification, don't hesitate to contact me. Jay Σεβαστόςdiscuss 22:45, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Steve Jobs

This is not maybe black and white case but deserves mentioning I think http://www.bnet.com/blog/smb/im-a-little-bipolarand-it-helps-my-business/516 http://blogs.psychcentral.com/bipolar-advantage/2011/08/is-steve-jobs-bipolar/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.213.52.170 (talk) 02:50, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The first source is not reliable for claims about Steve Jobs, and the second does not give any concrete information, admitting "My evidence is flimsy" and asking Does anyone have any strong evidence for or against the notion that Steve is bipolar?. Elizium23 (talk) 03:51, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Manic depression not possessive

I noticed that in at least one instance the condition is discussed in the possessive:

[DMX] has spoken openly about his manic depression.

While many with the condition do associate manic depression as am aspect of themselves, it is not appropriate -especially for those without the diagnosis- to discuss it this way. Furthermore, this kind of relationship is personal and we cannot speak on DMX's behalf on how he relates with his diagnosis.

Recommend changing to:

has spoken openly about his diagnosis of bipolar disorder [manic depression]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Skarts (talk • contribs)

I think it's an entirely reasonable thing to describe a pervasive mental disorder as an aspect of yourself. However, as a description of him from the outside, I somewhat reluctantly agree with you on this. -- The Anome (talk) 10:54, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
I by no means suggest that conditions as manic depression/bipolar disorder should be discouraged from one's own identity - I am a very big advocate of the "*being* not *having* bipolar" sentiment - and I am happy that you agree. However, this should extend to individual's perspectives on the condition, and should not be discussed that way as the fact. Furthermore, the sentiment of "being" bipolar is controversial, even within the community. Skarts (talk) 02:15, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
I'd appreciate it if this issue were addressed. I don't think it's a big deal. If Wikipedia is going to close certain topics for editing by the public, then the editors must be proactive is responding. Manic depression is *not* possessive, the diagnosis is. Skarts (talk) 21:36, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Category "People with bipolar disorder"

In addition to this list article of people with bipolar disorder, there is also a category of "People with bipolar disorder". Surely there should be some way of automatically ensuring the two are synchronised??? AlexAndrews (talk) 23:28, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Can't be both... major depressive disorder OR bipolar disorder

A quick perusal of this list and the "people affected by major depression" list revealed that many people are listed on both. It is not possible to be diagnosed with both major depressive disorder AND bipolar disorder. If there are manic episodes, it's bipolar; if not, it's major depression. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.206.29.227 (talk) 10:01, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

No. People can go from manic euphoria/ manic episodes to manic depression. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Qyack (talk • contribs) 06:41, 6 December 2009 (UTC) Actually here is the real scoop. Initially I was hospitalized for depression. At that time I was, as the term implies, Majorly depressed and had vivid strange ideas of reality and I had suicidal ideation. I was in fact Diagnosed with Major Depressive Disorder with Psychotic Features. It wasn't until a couple of years later that I started cycling with ideation of grandeur, racing thoughts (where ideas were popping up instantaneously and frequently in my head), (believe me I have some great ideas if only I take the time to write them all down) when in a manic episode. I have seemingly endless energy sleepless nights usually fixated on solving a particular problem otherwise known as a Manic episode (derived from the words mania ) . Hence, the term Bipolar implies the person resides within in two (bi), and opposite states (polar), as in Depressed or Euphoric. These were followed by a major depressive crashes. I was later hospitalized again and re diagnosed as Bi-Polar. The problem with being Bipolar is this: If you are only being evaluated while being in the Depressive state of Bipolar Disorder, the symptoms are identical to Major Depressive Disorder. Depression, at least in my case occupies the majority of my life. The True Manic or as they are now even differentiating, Hypo Manic Episodic behavior and Manic Episodic behavior, vary in length, frequency and intensity. They are in fact unpredictable. It is highly probable, as in my case, that these people were initially diagnosed with Major Depressive Disorder and it was later realized the diagnosis needed revision when a Manic Episode manifested itself.

omegatron@cox.net

P.S. The Internet is full of recent research (including Harvard University) of a significant correlation between Bipolar Disorder and Creative Genius. I have been monetarily rewarded by the Government, for the product of one of my Manic Episodes. (They actually paid me almost $1000 for my idea, If interested I can provide proof as I am looking for a job that will exploit my talents, but that's another story). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.251.132.40 (talk) 00:25, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah. It's not so much that the Venn diagram has no overlap. It's that, by definition, all bipolar people—bipolar I or bipolar II—have (or have had or will have) major depressive disorder, but not all depressives are bipolar. We should look into collapsing the list to avoid redundancies. On the other hand, that will require some research, as I'm pretty sure some of the people on this page had no manic episodes to be bipolar. JCaesar (talk) 02:19, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Sources for recent edits

I have removed an entry for Baudelaire which was sourced to the following "senior honors project" thesis paper: [21]. I do not believe that a senior thesis is the reliable scholarly source we are looking for in building this article. More questions, this can be taken up at the reliable sources noticeboard if you are interested in a broader determination. Elizium23 (talk) 19:17, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Some thoughts on the other "sources" cited. Baudelaire and Tennyson were summarily removed due to failing WP:RS. Undergrad thesis papers are not scholarly sources. J.M.W. Turner is cited to a self-published book, see WP:SELFPUB, fails WP:RS. Hermann Hesse is cited to a book on literary criticism written by a critic, not a doctor or health care professional, not WP:RS for statements about Hesse's mental health. Thomas Edison, sourced to a WP:SELFPUB work by a "former trial attorney"; fails WP:RS handily. Walter Benjamin: cited to a compendium of his essays by a modern editor. Assertion says he "suffered from depression and bouts of energy" which is not a diagnosis of bipolar disorder by a health care professional. Fails WP:RS and WP:V. Elizium23 (talk) 14:23, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit request from 203.173.235.219, 27 September 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Sir Winston Churchill - British Statesman, wartime politician and Nobel prize recipiant. Referred to his illness as his "Black Dog". 203.173.235.219 (talk) 23:24, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

You need to give a reference to make a request.  Chzz  ►  04:01, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

 Not done

209.51.241.250 (talk) 19:15, 21 January 2013 (UTC) There are many authoritative citations:

A First-Rate Madness: Uncovering the Links Between Leadership and Mental Illness by Nassir Ghaemi

Bipolar Disorder (Churchill's in Clinical Practice) by Anthony Hale and Marios Adamou

Black Dog, Kafka's Mice, and Other Phenomena of the Human Mind by Anthony Storr

Churchill by Paul Johnson

Churchill: A Study In Greatness by Geoffrey Best

http://www.bipolar-lives.com/winston-churchill-and-manic-depression.html

This list needs to be split in two

This list needs to be split in two, possibly sections in the same page: (a) people who are known to have declared a diagnosis of bipolar (Stephen Fry, Zeta-Jones, etc.) and (b) Speculative and/or professional back-diagnoses based on the analysis (not here, not WP:OR) of circumstantial evidence.

You can't bring back-diagnosis to the proof standard of "Catherine Zeta-Jones shows her long-form bipolar certificate". You also can't just erase Vincent van Gogh -- there are too many culturally significant individuals who have had afflictions of cultural consequence and enough meaning for professionals like dr. Jamison to be able to pattern-match. Each list has a distinct meaning and importance; forcing (a) into (b) and (b) into (a) just erodes the whole process. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dnavarro (talk • contribs) 17:04, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Doctors and not writers make diagnosis

This list needs serious pruning and there needs to be a bright line between speculation (eliminate) and actual diagnosis. Authors aren't at liberty to suddenly lay the mantle of medical issues on folks and have those stick. Even those that work in the field are not at liberty to make a diagnosis without attending the subject. Revisionist speculation written by authors is not good enough.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 03:42, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

List of people with major depressive disorder is similar. JakeDowell (talk) 04:45, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Even doctor's are not always particularly with diagnosing mental health issues. Many doctors diagnose very early in the treatment process for the sake or making an insurance claim (no diagnosis, no payment for service). It can takes months to refine a proper mental health diagnosis. In my practice I often give a preliminary diagnosis such as Major Depression, Adjustment Disorder or Bipolar in the first session, and refine it to something more accurate and specific later on as treatment continues. So much of diagnosis in mental health is based on the self report of the patient and patients with mental illness are not always particularly good with offering specific details or being completely honest. I agree with the above. Many patients that come to me and tell be they have bipolar have been poorly diagnosed in the past. This list is essentially useless. Jeff Vollmer LCPC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:D:7500:163:C5C:FCC2:780C:137 (talk) 04:06, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I feel like Adolf Hitler's bipolarity isn't well documented enough to be kept here

It isn't even mentioned on his page — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.203.169.47 (talk) 06:27, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Remove Adolf Hitler

Can we please remove Adolf Hitler from the list? He was such a deluded psychopath, how can anyone claim they know definitively if he had this underlying condition? It reflects poorly on the reality of bipolar disorder, because a lot of people already falsely think the illness equates psychotic insanity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.87.73 (talk) 18:17, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

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Page semiprotected

I have semiprotected this page for a ten-day period, given the consistent addition of poorly sourced content from IP editors over the last few days. Neutralitytalk 13:55, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 July 2016


1.  Done Add periods after "filmmaker" and "writer." The use of periods after bullet points is inconsistent throughout (e.g., "Cássia Kis, Brazilian actress" and "Metta World Peace, formerly known as Ron Artest, American basketball player") Sherman Alexie, Native American poet, writer, and filmmaker[1] Hans Christian Andersen, Danish writer[2]

2.  Done Inconsistent grammar and syntax with semicolon usage for Frank Bruno: Frank Bruno, British boxer; was hospitalized for a short period and as of 2005 is on lithium.[10][11][12]

3.  Done Kay Redfield Jamison is listed twice: once under J and once under R.

Her last name is Jamison, not Redfield. See [[22]] Drdaviss (talk) 12:15, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

4.  Done Period inside quotation marks for Gone With the Wind: Vivien Leigh, actress, most famous for her role as Scarlett O'Hara in David O. Selznick's movie "Gone With The Wind".[68]

5.  Done Headline capitalization for United States, delete extra space before "though." Abraham Lincoln, 16th president of the united states , though a diagnosis of bipolar disorder did not exist during Lincoln's time .[71]

6.  Done Vague pronoun reference for "they" in "suggesting that they." Jessica Marais, South African-Australian actress. She has stated that she has suffered bipolar episodes since she was 12 years old, suggesting that they have been caused by the death of her father from a heart attack.[78][79]

7.  Done Inconsistent use of semicolon, should be comma: Burgess Meredith, actor; with cyclothymia.[80]

8.  Done Lowercase "a" in "astrophysicist" for capitalization consistency. Dimitri Mihalas, Astrophysicist.[81]

9.  Done Comma inside quotation marks after "disorder." If this page is using British punctuation (that is, punctuation marks outside quotation marks, the rule is applied inconsistently throughout) Florence Nightingale, nurse and health campaigner. BPW "Florence heard voices and experienced a number of severe depressive episodes in her teens and early 20s - symptoms consistent with the onset of bipolar disorder", Dr. Kathy Wisner, a professor of psychiatry at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center.[90]

10.  Done Inconsistent punctuation convention with usage of "Name, role, description." Sometimes comma, sometimes semicolon, sometimes period, sometimes colon. Kim Novak, actress: During an interview with Robert Osborne for TCM in 2012 she stated that she wasn't diagnosed until late in her life.[91] Sinéad O'Connor, musician. She discussed her diagnosis in a Guardian interview in 2010.[92]

11.  Done Inconsistent usage of Oxford comma. Some lines use it in a series or list, and some do not. Richard Rossi, filmmaker, musician, and maverick minister, revealed for the first time in a live interview on the Lynn Cullen show on 5 June 2008 the link between his artistic productivity and his depression to bipolar disorder, stating that "my father was bi-polar one, and I'm bi-polar two." He spoke of the relationship between creativity and the illness. Tina Malone, British television actress, writer, director and producer (Brookside, Shameless). Diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder and bipolar disorder in 1998.[75][76]

12.  Done Inconsistent use of slashes and commas in lists. David Walliams, actor/comedian/author/charity fundraiser.[162]


Rkspurrier (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

WP:V

Since October 31, over 40K of prose and references have been added to this article by IPs as well as @Serwerr:. I would like to ask the other editors here if they have vetted these edits, such as following references and verifying they are truly reliable and that they say what we expect them to. The volume of edits has been so high that I cannot keep up, and I am hoping that someone else has. Elizium23 (talk) 00:45, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

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  1. ^ http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/46403.html History News Network article, 14 January 2008
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