Talk:Pather Panchali

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Director[edit]

Am I missing something? The article says the director is unknown but the table on the right hand side names the director. Fkh82 22:09, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

By "unknown", the article means the director was previously not famous or well-known - AKeen 22:27, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
aha, makes sense, didnt see the hitherto ...Fkh82 03:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Plot?[edit]

Hasn't anybody seen the film so we can add a Plot/Summary section which tells what's it about? --euyyn 22:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh! Sorry! Done a while ago (but may be improved)! --Kuaichik 02:13, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Quality Improvement[edit]

I propose that, in order to improve the quality of the article:

1. the sentence "this indicates the extent of the first film's cultural impact" be replaced by a more elaborate explanation,
2. the "Critical Reception" section contain fewer quotes and more details, and
3. more detail be added concerning Ray's encounter with Pather Panchali and its influence on the film (instead of just "(h)e...cut away what he thought were unnecessary elements...").

Regarding "1," some questions that could possibly be considered: How many theaters featured it around the world? How much money did Ray earned from it? If he actually didn't earn much, how much less time did it take him to get the Government of West Bengal to fund his films before and after the making of Pather Panchali? How much longer (and/or how many more times) did he have to rely on government funds for making more films?

We could probably mention (if there is a source to support this claim, which I'm currently guessing there is) that it is still played on television in West Bengal along with some of his other films.

An explanation on "3": according to Satyajit Ray.org, Ray first read an abridged version of the original novel. This suggests that he may not have voluntarily "cut away...unnecessary elements"; he may have simply been unaware that these "elements" even existed. After all, it was the abridged version that D.K. Gupta (see Satyajit Ray.org) recommended as a book that "would make a very good film." --Kuaichik 02:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Indir sister-in-law?[edit]

The article says so in respect to Sarbajaya, but I saw the movie and her husband calls her mother and Durga calls her grandmother. Her age (and her ways), of course, doesn't indicate that she could be the sister of Harihar (the husband). Am I right or I missed something? Nazroon 05:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

You missed something. But please give me a little bit of time to figure out what exactly you missed :-D --Kuaichik 22:56, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Durga doesn't call Indir "grandmother" - she calls her pisi, i.e. paternal aunt. Also, I can't recall Harihar ever calling Indir "mother." --Kuaichik 14:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

https://kdp.amazon.com/self-publishing/dashboard The article on Pather Panchali (meaning Song of the Road) is a well written article but it misses the background story of the making of the film. The Government of West Bengal, then headed by a visionary Chief Minister Dr B C Roy, funded, and produced the film to bail a talented but struggling film director Satyajit Ray. Ray was abundant by his financiers and his project stalled for lack of funds, when he approached the Chief Minister through a contact he met at the Coffee House. Dr Roy assigned the project to trusted lieutenant and Director of Publicity Mr P S Mathur on whose opinion Dr Roy heavily relied upon. The film was not produced entirely at the efforts of Satyajit Ray, as the article seems to describe. Mr P S Mathur was the Executive on behalf of the Government in his official capacity. The awards listed are also not of Satyajit Ray, the Golden Lotus and Silver Lotus awards were then actually known as President’s Gold and Silver Medals. Gold Medal was for the best film nationally and Silver Medal for best regional film in Bengali. The Silver and Gold Lotus Awards is how they know as now. Mr P S Mathur who received the awards in his capacity as the Executive Producer also requested not place around his neck as the tradition was because he is a government servant but given in the box. President of India Dr Rajendra Prasad could not attend the award ceremony as he was unwell and instead Jawaharlal Nehru the Prime Minister did the honors. The article also misses the clever manoeuvrings at the Cannes Festival by Mr P S Mathur, who used the good offices of Prince Agha Khan to host the press meet after the show. Mr P S Mathur is my late father and I published this story in my book Pulsates of Calcutta - Evocatively Salil Mathur . the success of Pather Panchali followed because of it performance at the festival by winning the Golden Bear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saliltoday (talkcontribs) 08:45, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating[edit]

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 19:08, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Nishchindipur?[edit]

The first sentence of the second paragraph of the "Plot" section currently reads:

Pather Panchali is set in the Bengali village of Nishchindipur in the 1920s.

But the name "Nishchindipur" is not mentioned in Pather Panchali (at least not in the film version!). In fact, as I recall, that was another village Apu and Sarbajaaya moved to in Aparajito after Harihar dies in Varanasi, right? --Kuaichik (talk) 03:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Nischindipur is once mentioned in the film,, almost towards the end when the family is packing for their journey to the new destination (so far as I remember, Harihar, while talking to the elderlies of the village, mentions the name). However, I am not 100% sure. So, for teh time being, the name can be removed. However, in the novel, it has been clearly mentioned as "Nischindipur".
In Aparajito, Sarabajaya and Apu moves to another village, yes.--Dwaipayan (talk) 05:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Ah, I just watched the film again (particularly the end). This time, I noticed Sarbajaya mentioning "Nischindipur," when her neighbor is helping her pack. The neighbor regrets that she could not prevent Durga's death, but Sarbajaya says it is not the neighbor's fault and something about other people Nischindipure being happier. --Kuaichik (talk) 06:27, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I also remembered the name being uttered somewhere towards the end of the film, but could not exactly remember who said it. Anyway, this is solved :)--Dwaipayan (talk) 06:53, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Kaash[edit]

Now here's something that's always irked me about practically every movie summary of Pather Panchali. All of them make this reference to the field of kaash flowers.

OK, that's nice. In a beautifully timeless scene, Apu and Durga are running through the lush Bengali landscape filled with kaash flowers and towards the train, a sign of the outside world, modernity, etc. But as an ignorant non-Bengali, I always have to wonder: just what is this kaash flower everybody talks about? And isn't that particular type of flower somehow important to the movie as a whole? (I could almost swear that I'd seen the answer to that last question somewhere on SatyajitRay.org :))

Obviously, not all of the readers of this article will know the answer to that! So, if the kaash flowers are important enough to be included, perhaps someone should clearly explain what they are and their significance. --Kuaichik (talk) 03:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

No idea whether the kaash flowers are important to the movie as a whole. Kaash flowers appear in the autumn, and usually heralds Durgapuja (see this).
No idea about its English and scientific name. Yes, almost every plot summary of the film mentions the flower. May be its just due to the visual impact of the train billowing black smokes in the white kaash field... Dunno :( --Dwaipayan (talk) 04:49, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Its a grass-family plant, here is the wikipage: Kans grass, but no photo of flower there. One photo can be found here. GDibyendu (talk) 06:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
This is a great find, GDibyendu. thanks a lot. Wikilinked kaash in the article. Indeed there are some images available in the internet.--Dwaipayan (talk) 06:32, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Poster[edit]

Would anyone mind if I replaced the dvd cover here with the title screen for the film? I can't find any image of the film poster online, so for historical interest I think the title card would be more appropriate. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

For the time being, that's fine. Please go ahead. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:21, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

A suggestion: GA...?[edit]

This article is still listed as a B-class article, in spite of the recent edits which seem to have really made the quality much better. Probably the motivation behind most of these edits is making it an FA, but should we try getting it nominated as a GA first? --Kuaichik (talk) 03:33, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

The article is being improved in considerable speed with a goal of, as you have said, FAC. The problem with GAC is in case it get stuck there, it may take a long time to get the result (pass or fail). FAC is not possible while the article is in GAC. My plan is, going for FAC straightaway, following the peer review (which, IMO, is often much more productive than GAC). If the article fails FAC, well, GAC can be tried :)--Dwaipayan (talk) 07:44, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Eh? What happened? :) --Kuaichik (talk) 04:50, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Move[edit]

Pather Panchali can be a disambiguation page, but it should not be a redirect. –thedemonhog talkedits 22:27, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

It is now a disambiguation page. Hope I moved it correctly. --Kuaichik (talk) 04:55, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

FA?[edit]

How far is this from an FA?--ppm (talk) 03:36, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Ragas[edit]

The article states Desh was linked to rain and Todi to evening, but I can't find either. The Raga Guide states that Desh is a raga associated with regional music and Todi has an association with rain. What exactly does the original source say? Hekerui (talk) 21:58, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Copy edit, December 2013[edit]

  • Filming, para 3: "One producer, after learning of Ray's plan, contacted the widow of the novel's author ...". Google books appears not to recognize the isbn 8172153678 given for Ray 2010, but the same information is given in English in Ray 1996 (pages 33-34). Shall we use this instead? Also, Ray 1996 names the producer in question as Mr Bhattacharya of Kalpana Movies. Is there any reason we just say "one producer" rather than naming him? --Stfg (talk) 16:34, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Ray 2010 is a Bengali book, and may be that is why not recognized by Googe Book? Not sure. I have access to the book, and hence used it extensively, as opposed to the Ray 1996 (English version of the same book) which I do not have complete access to. If you are able to see the same info in that page in Ray 1996, you can use that.
  • Yes, the Bengali version (Ray 2010) provides the same name (Mr Bhattacharya of Kalpana Movies). The reason I did not include the name in the text is I did not have the whole name of Bhattacharya (which is the last name).--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:25, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
  • I think it's OK to name him as Mr Bhattacharya in that case. I've changed to Ray 1996 because more people will be able to verify from the English version. I can see those pages in Google Books at the moment. --Stfg (talk) 15:38, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Release and reception para 4 Crowther: "even though he praised the deftly crafted, yet slow, emergence of a poetic theme of lament" is well beyond what the source says. Re-summarized as "even though he praised its gradually emerging poignancy and poetic quality". --Stfg (talk) 18:15, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Release and reception, end: is it feasible to update the availability of recordings? --Stfg (talk) 18:15, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Well, the data is current as of 2013. Removed that as of, as the time is same as the time mentioned in the preceding sentence.--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:25, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Themes para 2: "Cooper has analysed that the immersive experience of the film corresponds to this epiphany of wonder." Uncited and I can't find it in the reference. The book doesn't contain the word "immersive". Generally, I find this paragraph nearly impossible to understand, and I think the concept of "epiphany of wonder" needs to be explained a bit more. --Stfg (talk) 19:34, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
This page seems to explain it (the word "immersive" must have been added later over here). Couldn't understand it myself and they need to elaborate more on this in the article. Good job with all this, Ugog Nizdast (talk) 14:42, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, Ugog Nizdast. Reading that, I think I was probably wrong to use the plural ("epiphan[ies] of wonder") in one place. We speak of people "having an epiphany", but this seems rather different. Robinson's phrase is extremely poetic, but it seems to me a rather strange term for the camatkara defined there. Immersion is mentioned in that passage, by the way. Can anyone see how to unravel this, as we need something that can be understood by readers without looking at the source? --Stfg (talk) 16:08, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
This would be very challenging to unravel in the text. If we explain properly, that would take up a lot of space. However, one alternative could be explaining camatkara in an explanatory note. What say?--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:31, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
I think that's a very good idea. Would you be willing to prepare it, Dwaipayan? I would find it difficult. I'm confused by the phrase "epiphany of wonder" used for a state of immersion, because an epiphany is an event rather than a state. Sanskrit dictionaries on the internet seem to translate camatkara as astonishment, but that's different from what's being described in the link Ugog Nizdast provided above. As you can see, I don't quite get the intended meaning here. --Stfg (talk) 15:19, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Funny reference: Reference Cooper 2000 gives an ISBN that lead to the book where the cited statements can be found, but it also has a link to a short PDF, which doesn't, and which appears to be a different source altogether. --Stfg (talk) 19:34, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Removed the PDF link to the excerpt.--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:25, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
  • 'Legacy: The sentence about Apur Panchali is the only one that deals with work by anyone other than Ray, so sticking it anywhere in the middle of the section makes it seem out of place. That's why I shifted it to the start of the section. --Stfg (talk) 20:19, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Citations need a bit of sorting out. The article mostly uses {{sfn}} but the Explanatory notes use {{harv}}. The mixture of in-text and footnote citations in the Explanatory notes is particularly ugly. --Stfg (talk) 20:29, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Now, this is a problem I faced in some other articles as well. For unknown reasons, the sfn template does not work if used inside efn templates (the template that is used in this article for explanatory notes). That is why had to use harv template for citations within explanatory notes.--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:25, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Ah, I see. Unfortunately I'm no expert on reference techniques. Hey ho! --Stfg (talk) 15:38, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Comments[edit]

I am sorry that I missed the FA review. I will make a few comments here as time permits.

  • There is another source for the run time:BBFC says 110+ for the original, 115 and 120 for videos. Maybe that can help explain some of the discrepancies. BollyJeff | talk 15:01, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Incorporated BBFC source in the explanatory note.--Dwaipayan (talk) 21:44, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
  • The first sentence of the second para of Influences section (The realist narrative style...) could be better placed at the beginning of the first para, since it appears to summarize that one. I also do not see why the entire last sent of second para needs to be in parans.
  • Translocated the sentence to the beginning of the first paragraph. Indeed it fits much better there. The entire last sentence of second para in parenthesis:I am not sure either why this is in parenthesis. I cannot remember how it got the parenthesis. I think it may be as well without. I did not change it though.
  • Boral is mentioned almost back-to-back and with no link. Try Garia, which mentions the film.
  • Boral, the village, has probably become a satellite part of Garia now. Ok, will do so.
  • Done.
  • One section says the widow agreed and another says the widow declined permission. Which is it, and if she declined how did they go forward?
  • Tried to make more clear.
  • "It has also been cited as a major influence on The Beatles, specifically George Harrison". Not so sure about that. The book says that Shankar was an influence, but not necessarily the film itself, which only gets one minor mention. Would need another source to back this up. BollyJeff | talk 15:01, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I removed "major" from the sentence. Yes, to make that a major influence, it needs more citations. How about just "an influence"? D you think one source is sufficient?
Actually, you didn't miss anything, the FAR was closed due to lack of interested reviewers and was advised to open it some other time when the backlog was cleared. About your widow comment, the first statement refers to Ray himself getting permission from her while the other one refers to her refusing a rival producer who had plans to make his own film with some other director. -Ugog Nizdast (talk) 17:22, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
I see. Then it could say that she declined because she already had a verbal agreement with Ray, or whatever the truth was.
  • Accolades -
    • Source for OCIC award?
Still looking for this.
OCIC seems to be an award that has been discontinued in Cannes for many years. I am having trouble finding good source for this. Lyden, John (2009). The Routledge Companion to Religion and Film. Taylor & Francis. pp. 61–62. ISBN 978-0-415-44853-6.  is perhaps the best source I found. Manorama Online mentions this. What about incorporating these two?--Dwaipayan (talk) 02:40, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
That would be better than nothing, yes. BollyJeff | talk 12:21, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Added the two sources.--Dwaipayan (talk) 01:16, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Run on last sentence in first para - mixed usage of , and ;
  • I think the usage of comma and semi-colon is correct here. The semi-colons divide the awards by years, while within each year the individual awards are separated by commas.
Got it.
    • Misplacement of "New York in 1959" and the source.
  • Corrected.
  • First para of Release and reception has five of the same source in a row. Try to reduce or find something else to throw in between. Same in Script section.
  • Well, same source for consecutive sentences is not a problem. What can be done is not providing citation superscripts for every sentence. The citation may be given at the end of, say, three sentences, or, at the end of the last sentence that uses that citation. Do you think that should be done?
Probably. There is this: Wikipedia:CITEKILL#Needless_repetition_of_citations.
Decreased citation overkill in those two sections.--Dwaipayan (talk) 01:16, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
  • In places where the only ref is by Ray himself, it would be wise to find a backup source, so as to avoid the primary source argument.
  • I think unless the fact supported is extra-ordinary or controversial or contrary to common sense, ref by Ray is sufficient.
  • In places where there are two refs together, the one with the lower number should appear first.
  • Right. I may have missed some such instances. If you pick any such error, can you please mention the specific instance/ correct it in the text?
Done.
  • Put categories in alpha order.
  • source 57 violates p. vs pp. Check them all.
  • Corrected. This was a mistake. I hope p and pp usages are ok now.--Dwaipayan (talk) 21:44, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

That's it. Let me know when it comes up for review again. BollyJeff | talk 19:06, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Could you also remove the red links? It kills me to see those in an FA level article. BollyJeff | talk 12:23, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Red links converted to blue links. Hope I have not missed any redlinks. Thanks.--Dwaipayan (talk) 02:04, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Something else: The infobox lists four distributors that are not mentioned elsewhere in the article (so no sources), including Sony from 1995 (presumably for DVD?). Then the 'Release and reception' section lists two different distributors for DVD. So where is Sony, and how do all those other distributors fit in to the puzzle? BollyJeff | talk 02:33, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Damn, this is tough. I have added an explanatory note to elucidate as much as possible. Excellent catch, bye the way.--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:37, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Good job, but now there is a citation error in the notes section. It happened during this edit, but I cannot figure out what is wrong. BollyJeff | talk 12:47, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Tar shehnai vs shehnai[edit]

Note that the instrument referred to in the soundtrack section is the tar shehnai, as stated in the source. It's a stringed instrument, and different from the shehnai, which is a double reed wind instrument. Both are mentioned in Indian musical instruments. --Stfg (talk) 23:59, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

There's now an article on it (with the correct spelling, which I've adjusted above). --Stfg (talk) 18:46, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Awesome, thank you. BollyJeff | talk 20:02, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Apu Trilogy[edit]

We're inconsistent in the capitalisation and italicisation of the Apu trilogy. Which is correct:

  1. The Apu Trilogy
  2. the Apu Trilogy
  3. the Apu trilogy
  4. the Apu Trilogy
  5. the Apu trilogy?

The article The Apu Trilogy uses style 1, but I'm not sure what's really best. --Stfg (talk) 11:43, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

I support the last one. It's the most simple-looking one. Besides Apu trilogy isn't really an official title, just a handy way to describe three films together (that were never made with the intention of making a trilogy). The article should accordingly be moved to Apu trilogy.—indopug (talk) 12:30, 23 April 2014 (UTC)