Talk:Talos No. 2

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This article has been mentioned by a media organization:

"Downtown Portland sculpture of Greek mythology torn down". KGW. July 9, 2015. Retrieved October 2, 2015.

Dates[edit]

If anyone has time to spare, I could use a little help with this article, which I hope to promote to Good status. I think the sculpture was completed between 1959 and 1968, but some sources give 1977 as the date. Some sources say the sculpture was first installed in 1968, others say it has been on the Transit Mall since 1977. I am confused as to which dates I should use for the sculpture's completion and installation. If someone has the time, interest, and patience to review this article and poke around some of the sources, I'd appreciate another pair of eyes. It is not a long article, and there are not too many sources to scan. The article should be close to meeting GA criteria once this issue is resolved. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:53, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Mmm. It's a problem.

Ref 1: Smithsonian - 1977 - Located SW 6th between Alder & Morrison, Portland, Oregon
Ref 2: Regional Arts and Cultural Council - 1959–1968 - SW 6th Ave. and SW Stark St., Transit Mall, between SW Oak St. and SW Stark St.
Ref 3: Maryhill Museum of Art - 1968 - "was placed on Portland’s downtown transit mall". / "Talos No. 2, 1968 Portland Transit Mall, Portland, OR (near SW Sixth Avenue and Stark Street)"
Ref 5: Fox 12 - 1977 - a famous statue on the corner of SW 6th Avenue and Stark Street in Portland ...that has overlooked the Transit Mall since 1977.
Ref 6 - KAPUT!
Ref 7: Oregonian - 1977 - "Hansen's 1977 piece, "Talos No. 2," at Southwest 6th Avenue and Stark Street."
Ref 8: KGW - 1977 - "was built by James Lee Hansen and erected at Southwest 6th Avenue and Stark Street in 1977. "
Ref 9: Regional Arts and Cultural Council - 1977 - "that has overlooked the Transit Mall since 1977."

Other info:

TriMet was formed in 1969, before which anarchy seemed to reign. That's problematic for a 1968 statue commission :(
Portland Transit Mall was opened in 1977

Questions:

Why does The Smithsonian put the location at Alder & Morrison, whereas all others point to Oak & Stark, or the corner of Stark. Simple error, or corroboration for the two locations theory?
Was there a transport facility at Alder & Morrison ever?

The Smithsonian page does not say "Alder & Morrison"; it says "SW 6th between Alder & Morrison", and that was correct at the time of the reference it cites (2005). In the late 2000s, the sculpture was moved to the block of 6th between Oak and Stark, but very close to the corner of Stark (see this 2009 Google Street View). See detailed comments by me below. SJ Morg (talk) 11:04, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Observations:

Ref 3 seems most authoritative: someone has researched the artist and written a long mongraph.

Conclusions

I was reaching for the conclusion that it was completed in '68 per Ref 3, installed in location A and moved to the current location in 1977 per ref 7.
But TriMet 1969 has shaken that somewhat

Other thoughts:

I think I'd handle this by discussion in the article, noting that some uncertainty surrounds the dating of the statue, with conflicting dates given for the origination/commission/installation. Notably, a monograph on the artist specifies a 1968 date, but sources including TriMet and The Smithsonian specify a 1977 date.
And I've emailed the TriMet Public Art managers [1] and RACC public art manager & archivist [2] asking if they can throw any light on the subject. --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:07, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I do not have the strong interest in public artwork that Another Believer does, but I do have a strong interest in Portland transit history, and have previously done some research for WP in that area. There are problems with most of the refs mentioned above. First, the Portland Transit Mall did not exist in 1968 (nor did its creator, TriMet); it was not completed until late 1977 and was formally dedicated in March 1978. The sculpture Talos No. 2 was originally located on the west side of 6th Avenue midway between Morrison and Alder streets, whereas it now stands on the east side of 6th just north of Stark Street (2 ½ blocks to the north). I have Oregonian articles from 1978 and 1985 (I can supply dates and page numbers) that clearly indicate that earlier location, and I also found at least one photo that I took myself, in 1982, clearly showing this sculpture in its earlier location (midway between Morrison and Alder, west side of 6th). The fact that so many of the sources above pair "1977" with the current location indicates inadequate research by their authors. Articles that merely stated that the sculpture has been "on the transit mall" since 1977 (without giving a location) are correct (if one does not count temporary storage during construction), as it was installed on the then-new mall in 1977, and it remains on the transit mall today – but in a different block.

The question then becomes: Was it completed earlier (1968?) and kept somewhere else before 1977? The answer is yes, but so far I have very little detail, as this is based on a single source. An article in The Sunday Oregonian of Nov. 21, 1971, entitled "New art exhibitions scheduled", includes a photo of Talos No. 2, with caption "Talos No. 2 – Above is among bronzes in James Hansen's retrospective to open next week at Portland Art Museum. Vancouver, Wash. sculptor has done many commissions in region." It does not say when Talos No. 2 was completed, nor where it was residing currently, which leads me to infer that it was perhaps not on public display anywhere at the time, maybe just in a gallery (or even in storage) – but I really don't know. But that was 1971 – long before TriMet even began planning for a transit mall. Until I found that article, I had assumed TriMet had commissioned Hansen to create Talos No. 2 for the under-construction transit mall, but that's clearly wrong; it already existed. Going back to some of the specific citations: The long feature on Hansen by the Maryhill Museum of Art was definitely incorrect in stating that Talos No. 2 "was placed on Portland’s downtown transit mall in 1968," since the mall did not exist at that time. The Smithsonian page has 1977 and correctly gives the original location (which lasted about 30 years) but it cites a 2005 brochure, so it fails to note that the sculpture is now located in a different location (on the same street).

When was the sculpture relocated from its first locaton on the transit mall to its second/current? Almost certainly in 2009, but I don't have a ref for that, and probably won't take time to look for any. The mall was closed for a heavy rebuilding in January 2007, and several sculptures were placed into storage around that time and, when reinstalled shortly before the mall's reopening in May 2009, were placed in locations that different from their pre-2007 locations; another example of a sculpture affected by the mall's rebuilding is Kvinneakt. As to when the sculpture was completed, I doubt that 1959 is correct. The Maryhill article has a photo of Hansen with Talos (no. 1) in his studio, which it says was taken in 1959–60, and that sculpture was not installed in a public space until 1961. January 1965, when it was installed in Fresno (according to a 1/31/1965 Oregonian article and the Smithsonian database page for that sculpture; this highlights another error in the Maryhill article, which says the first Talos was installed in 1961, whereas I have found at least two sources saying 1965, one of which was published at that time, when it was fresh news). It seems unlikely that Talos No. 2 would have been completed at the same time as the original Talos, when no refs giving any detailed info. on Talos No. 2's status before 1968/77 have surfaced, but this needs more research. Is the Maryhill Museum article the only source of a "1968" date? If so, that date should be rejected entirely (and not even mentioned in the article as a possible year) unless and until another source for 1968 is found (and one that you are sure is not based on the Maryhill article). A very, very low-resolution scan of a photo in that Jan. 31, 1965, Oregonian article gives the impression that Talos (now in Fresno) and Talos No. 2 were very similar (nearly identical?) in appearance, and the Maryhill article caption with a date given as 1959–60 suggests Hansen's original Talos sculpture was completed by that time. The year "1959" would appear to relate to the creation of Hansen's first "Talos" sculpture which, later, inspired a series of similar or identical sculptures (there is also now a Talos No. 3). SJ Morg (talk) 11:04, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've been bold and removed 1968 based on your information here. Also, James Lee Hansen appears to be still alive; perhaps he or his relatives have information on the date of creation? http://www.jamesleehansen.com/home - Metalello ^talk 11:13, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

To answer one of your questions, Ref 2, which eminates from the current custodians of the statue, gives a 1959-1968 date. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:57, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

And I have a response from the Public Art Collections Registrar of RACC (current custodians), which says "The date that we have on our website (1959-1968) is based on the plaque on the base of the sculpture (see attached photo). Typically this means that the creation of the artwork took 9 years. The piece came into the City’s collection by way of Tri-Met who selected and installed that original transit mall artwork in 1977. This particular piece was installed on 6th Ave between Washington and Alder on November 18th, 1977. Tri-Met purchased the sculpture directly from the artist, but I have no record of where it was located before that. In 2009 the transit mall was redesigned and all of the existing artwork was re-sited and several new pieces were purchased/commissioned. That is when it moved to its current location on 6th between Oak and Stark." --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:00, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Unless it was moved less than two months after installation, "between Washington and Alder" is incorrect. Multiple 1978 articles (including one from January 9) give its location as between Morrison and Alder (with photos), and my own 1982 photo shows it there also (across the street from the Meier & Frank Building's west side and adjacent to the Selling Building's southeast corner). Regarding the sculpture's date, the above appears to support saying it was completed in 1968. – SJ Morg (talk) 12:35, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Tagishsimon, SJ Morg, and Metalello: This is all incredibly helpful information. Thank you for contributing to this discussion. Unfortunately, I still feel stuck. Does anyone feel confident proposing specific improvements to the article, based on information we know about the sculpture and transit history, but without violating Wikipedia's original research policy? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 03:47, 16 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]