User talk:Indubitably/Archive 18
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Ehud
Hi Lara. I have left a comment at WP:AN/I in regards to Ehud Lesar. Please let me know what you think. Khoikhoi 08:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Barnstar
|
The Surreal Barnstar | |
| For creating the Bathrobe Cabal. It's very strange (in a good way). IronGargoyle (talk) 18:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC) |
- Thanks. It was actually Riana's idea. Dfrg.msc started putting stuff together and the_undertow did the original images and expanded the text. I just put it on a page and made it pretty. :) Lara❤Love 18:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
- You have this all mixed up. Riana had a cursory suggestion. Then Defrag and I both developed the concept through honest, deliberate and intense communication. The emails sent between us reveal out interpersonal relationship; the framework for such a concept. It was only through mutual understanding and complete dedication that we decided to create and invoke the bathrobe cabal. Then Lara pretty much took all the credit and continues to deny the origins of this ancient and important rite. So yeah, you can pretty much cut and paste this barnstar to my page. If I've done anything to make this website better it's really this. the_undertow talk 23:48, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
The best part...
There's a chance that I'll be in a show that will be closing on the 15th, and not only that, but my birthday is the 17. =) EVula // talk // ☯ // 19:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
- Good times. Hopefully those dates will work out. This is going to be awesome! Lara❤Love 04:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Question
Do you like my new username? I love to party! --Party (talk) 21:37, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
- Someone's cruising for a date...- Arcayne (cast a spell) 22:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
El_C
I am thinking that we should just let him work this out for himself. He isn't really listening to us, as it is clear that he not really listening to us, but using our comments to strengthen whatever complaint he is planning to submit. someone suggested that we just leave him be and ignore what is essentially a tantrum. I think he is usually a good admin and editor (though how he can have time to give appropriate care and attention to any of his "33,000" watchlisted pages attention is beyond me), but his accusations and commentary is just a lapse in good faith. We should just let him be and either deal with the conclusions of it, or allow him to work out for himself what he is doing wrong. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 22:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- I actually haven't been back since I last posted a message, and wasn't planning on going back. I removed it from my watchlist of manageable length. I was told when I was directed to the page that commenting would be futile, however, I wanted my disapproval of the situation (as far as it concerns me) stated for the record, which I've done. I don't care in the least what his feelings are on the matter as this point considering the ridiculous reply about 33,000 watched pages. As if everyone is supposed to watch every page they edit and if they don't it's their own fault they don't know they're being brought up at ArbCom. Negative. That's poor form, especially for an admin. I'm done with it. My comment wasn't because I'm worried about actions from ArbCom, I just wanted to point out how utterly stupid the claim is. Thanks for the note and advice, though. Lara❤Love 03:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well the claim, though absurd, would explain why he needs everything spoon-fed to him in the form of diffs; he simply doesn't have any time to actually absorb info. To be candid, if he watches that many pages, I'm surprised he has a life away fromt he keyboard. Even WarCrack addicts aren't that devoted.
- And yes, it was nice to chat with you as well. See? I didn't hiton you even once. ;) - Arcayne (cast a spell) 04:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
JSYK...
colourful award available if The King ever passes FAC....(Billy Joel was ever a better judge of what's important than some Vital/Core article list or other...) cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- That's awesome. It may be a cold day in Hell when we get Elvis there, but I'll certainly try. Too bad Billy didn't mention Tool or Maynard James Keenan. Damn. XD Lara❤Love 04:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Aaaww yoy never know...if'n you get about three working on it who are really committed it can work wonders..lion was a great one where loads of folks chipped in, and vampire is another monster (pun intended) at FAC currently. Ronald Reagan and Jerusalem are now FAs and you couldn't get more controversial than them (well, I guess you can but it was still difficult for the editors involved). I was musing on making more awards likethat where a song unloads a huge number of things in the collective consciousness...all ideas appreciated. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:26, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Ahaha, if you only knew. Elvis is extremely controversial. You wouldn't think it, but it is. I've created a flippin' WikiProject and progress is still halted. We're attempting to go through ArbCom, but they don't want to accept it as a new case. I was supposed to provide some evidence and a motion, whatever that is. I don't even know. I don't have the time or will to dig through months of diffs for that bullshit. There's a handful of editors against one and we can get no where. The article is probably going to stay the mess it is because most of us are fed up and moving on. My to-do list has filled up with some other projects, but maybe I'll go back to Elvis if progress ever resumes there. Lara❤Love 04:32, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Holy jeeezus, what a talk page. We had a few issues in vampire WRT Lilith in the Old Testament and exactly what her role was originally or whether that was made up later in medieval times, but we sorted it out in a few days - nothing like that though. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Yea, it's a pain. I think I'll focus on Tool-related stuff for now. Lara❤Love 05:30, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Opinion wanted on ANI
I would value your contribution at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Proposed community topic ban for User:Tkguy on Asian fetish. Cool Hand Luke 06:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Yeah
It's getting better. Phew. the_undertow talk 09:39, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
YO!
OOOOOHHHHH SNAP! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 18:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Word'em up, yo! Good times. Lara❤Love 19:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- What happened to the formatting on the BRC page? The names on the left are all funky. GlassCobra 19:51, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Yea, IE is teh suck. Lara❤Love 21:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- Pardon me for intruding, but as a mac user,i do concur that IE does suck, and mightily so. So sayeth us all. (also, sometimes User pages get all wonky and squooshed together when I use Safari) - Arcayne (cast a spell) 21:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- I also don't mean to intrude; I think you are already aware of this, but Vandal proof is based of IE. In fact it logs you in IE.--Antonio Lopez (talk) 01:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- VP also crashes explorer.exe in Windows Vista. Since we are sort of going on tangents... the_undertow talk 01:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- must be EI7 --Antonio Lopez (talk) 13:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- VP also crashes explorer.exe in Windows Vista. Since we are sort of going on tangents... the_undertow talk 01:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- I also don't mean to intrude; I think you are already aware of this, but Vandal proof is based of IE. In fact it logs you in IE.--Antonio Lopez (talk) 01:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- Pardon me for intruding, but as a mac user,i do concur that IE does suck, and mightily so. So sayeth us all. (also, sometimes User pages get all wonky and squooshed together when I use Safari) - Arcayne (cast a spell) 21:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Just because Vandal Proof uses it doesn't mean I have to edit in it, or browse the web, or check my email, or download pr0n. No, I can use FireFox for all those things, so I do.... except the last one. I make pr0n, I don't download it. ;) Lara❤Love 03:49, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Jesus Christ!
I'm on fuckin' Fire! AAAGHAGAhhhh!!! Dfrg_msc 07:49, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Elvis Discography
Is there some reason why you deleted the entire Elvis discography template? I had put it into reasonable shape, and it looks like you were offended by the Christian singles (not an insignificant number of them) and hammered the template promptly. Now it's just an empty shell - nothing left. Good job, Lara. Is this your way of working with others? We contributors put a lot of thought and energy into our content, and it would be only reasonable if you could resist blasting other people's contributions without even an "excuse me" Hoserjoe (talk) 08:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- We've been over this. The addition of Christian singles was added by you without consensus once before. Those who commented did not agree with the addition, but you put it back anyway. That is an unacceptable way to work with others. It was a huge section that made the template overly long, it was also poorly linked and contained duplicates. Not only that, but why add Christian and not Blues and R&B? It's an unnecessary addition. I'm sure it's listed somewhere in an article. That's sufficient. And, as for the template being an empty shell, perhaps you should consider clicking the "show" link. Regards, Lara❤Love 13:34, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
RE: EFD
OK I'll calm down now..... // F9T 20:00, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
User:L.Wadsworth
Hi LaraLove, I see you have lifted the block on the above user. This - Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/L.Wadsworth - wasn't on his talk page, so there was no way for you to know but would you reconsider your decision in the light of this information? If not, thats fine too. Cheers, Mattinbgn\talk 03:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- I still don't see where he edited after he was warned, even with the IP. If he reverts again, by all means reblock. Otherwise, I don't think it's justified. Lara❤Love 03:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Ok. Thanks anyway. -- Mattinbgn\talk 03:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- While the last warnings were issued after he had breached WP:3RR, L. Wadsworth has previously been given three 3RR warnings,[1][2] The most recent of these,[3] was given only a few hours before he breached 3RR. While that warning may have been in relation to his edits at Australia, the simple fact is that he was aware of the existence of 3RR and the consequences of breaking it. Knowing the consequences he logged out, breached 3RR using an anonymous IP and then immediatly logged back in so he could post a misleading statement on another editor's talk page.[4] There appears to be clear intent in his actions. --AussieLegend (talk) 08:20, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Has there been a problem again? Has he even been online? Blocks are not punitive. If there is another occurrence or he reverts again, then reblock him. Not before. Lara❤Love 22:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Um, we had him blocked once for 24 hours and an administrator unblocked him after less than six. :/ That said, I was just pointing out that he had actually been warned about 3RR, 2 hours before deliberately breaching it. --AussieLegend (talk) 00:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
- Has there been a problem again? Has he even been online? Blocks are not punitive. If there is another occurrence or he reverts again, then reblock him. Not before. Lara❤Love 22:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Okay, well. It was a 24 hour block and he's not edited in more than 24 hours. So I guess it worked out. Lara❤Love 01:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Huggle
Thanks for creating the account. *huggles* Huggle (talk) 10:47, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
i woke up
and my userpage is broken. im gonna nap. the_undertow talk 19:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Did you go to work today? Lara❤Love 19:37, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Ya. It was teh suck. My pupils are really big. I look liek a frog. the_undertow talk 00:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I fixed it. You were using a userbox that has been nominated for Miscellany for deletion and they forgot to put the <noinclude> tag[5] --Antonio Lopez (talk) 23:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. Replied on your talk. the_undertow talk 00:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
- it was nothing.--Antonio Lopez (talk) 00:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Ha ha!
This page is a laugh, and I love the gif with you, The undertow, and Dfrg.msc as well. :) Hilarious! Acalamari 19:47, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Head filled with venlafaxine hydrochloride = hurts
i think this may have just made it worse. the_undertow talk 04:06, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
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Re: edit summary
Reply to this edit summary: I think that was done in this and this edit. I'm not sure, but that was probably after it achieved FA...Just in case you were really wondering :-). While I'm here, if you ever need any help with something regarding the Tool Wikiproject let me know. I've never been a part of a wikiproject, so I do not know how they are generally organized. Take care, daveh4h 09:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Reporting vandalism
Hi, as far as I could see that user has no user or talk page. Being fairly new myself, I have almost no experience in using warning templates or such, and since he seems to have posted about 200 messages in two days, which look like they are very likely vandalism (many have "veggie" in title) I think someone might like to respond quicker than I can. Sorry I can't do more now. Wwheaton (talk) 18:19, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Lunch
sry but my boss through my cellular telephone in the deep fryer. the_undertow talk 19:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
- That's interesting. Are you at home, because you've called me from there before too, I think. Lara❤Love 19:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
- my brain said 'threw' but i typed 'through.' i dont think i want to play the venlafaxine hydrochloride plus clonazepam game anymore. i think tom cruise was right about everything. the_undertow talk 19:56, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
- Yea, meds suck. But ya know, I've just come to a profound realization about myself and my disorder. So my bad day, which got worse at 19:30 UTC, just got even worse like 10 minutes ago. Maybe it will pass after Konrad looks into my eyes and gives me my weekly Friday life/emotional analysis. Hopefully it passes. These things usually do. Lara❤Love 20:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
- my brain said 'threw' but i typed 'through.' i dont think i want to play the venlafaxine hydrochloride plus clonazepam game anymore. i think tom cruise was right about everything. the_undertow talk 19:56, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Can you have a quick talk with him, as you're his mentor? He's been adding some stuff to Ludwig van Beethoven and other articles that's basically a coatrack for trying to advocate homeopathy. Thanks! Adam Cuerden talk 18:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hey Adam. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he made a single edit to the article a week and a half ago. It was reverted and he appropriately went to the talk page where he came to a resolution with the article custodians. The last talk page message was on the 11th. It's been moot for more than a week. Am I seeing this edit history inaccurately? His additions were also informative and, although they mentioned Homeopathy, it didn't read like advocacy to me. I think the resolution for a separate article is a good one. Perhaps some people should calm down at the mere sight of the word "Homeopathy", and stop stalking Dana's contributions. Lara❤Love 19:09, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well, he did write an entire book claiming that because people used homeopathy in the past, it must be good. Adam Cuerden talk 21:04, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Did he really? Is that what the book is about? Really? He's written several books. He's the leading spokesman for Homeopathy in the United States. This is known. Obviously he holds a different position on the matter than you and some others here. However, this is an encyclopedia. We represent all views. So his position in his field doesn't mean that every edit he makes is against a policy. How about you work on your articles, stay off his Special:Contributions page and when he makes an edit to an article for which you are a custodian, actually read it before reverting it and consider rewriting rather than removing. Most of the additions I've seen him make to articles are informative. They're always backed by sources. Some, perhaps, could benefit from rewording, but they are instead always deleted. Consider, also, the fact that he remains cool in talk page discussions despite the fact that literally almost every edit he makes to the mainspace is reverted.
- Well, he did write an entire book claiming that because people used homeopathy in the past, it must be good. Adam Cuerden talk 21:04, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Is it possible for you to provide some summarizing comment on the James Manby Gully discussion.[6] Also, the article on potassium dichromate is presently protected due to edit warring. Clearly, the study in the journal CHEST is notable, and yet, the same anti-homeopathic people delete reference to this study, asserting that it is not "notable" and then ignoring the evidence that it is notable.[7] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danaullman (talk • contribs) 13:14, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, Dana, I looked over the pages you linked. One of the reasons I was chosen to be your mentor is that I don't really know anything about Homeopathy and I'm not involved in anything remotely related to it. That said, I don't know enough to weigh in on discussions about what's relevant past asking for clarification about why some things are allowed and others not that don't fall into policy in my eyes. In these two instances above, consensus is against you. I have to put trust in the editors involved that they have a grasp on the topics and the policies that relate to their inclusion. While I see some POV pushing in few instances, I must ask that you stop throwing that claim out, as it's not helping advance your position in any of these discussions.
- While I understand your desire to bring Homeopathic information to articles, considering your position in the field, it is, in many cases, undue weight. It seems apparent to me that there is little, if any, evidence of Homeopathic treatments improving the health of the historical figures for whom you have edited the articles of. In reading over these articles in their entirety and considering what other information is included in them, considering there is no proof that Homeopathic treatments improved their health, to include details of said treatment is undue weight. And to write the information in such a way as to imply that it even may have improved their health is synthesis, as it's not supported by the references cited. For that reason, it can be considered inappropriate to include Homeopathic information in these articles, with the possible exception of a mere sourced mention of it. Lara❤Love 16:54, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
You got publicity!
...here in Britain! On a radio station in the Midlands here in the United Kingdom, your userpage was mentioned on a local radio station, described as "better than a MySpace one!"
What do you think of that?? --Solumeiras talk 19:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
- Holy shit! Hahaa... that's awesome! XD Thanks for telling me! Is there anyway I can get a clip of that? Lara❤Love 19:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Arbitration
Hi. Please be aware of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration#Ehud Lesar arbitration case. Thank you. Grandmaster (talk) 07:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
people are gonna talk
[8] ;)... Anyhoo, off to sleep. Later. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 06:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
S Club peer review
Hi there! Your name is listed as a "peer reviewer" under the arts category (if that's what it's called!) I've recently nominated the S Club article for a peer review, and I was wondering if you'd be so kind as to check it out and leave your comments? Ha, this reads like a template.. but I'm just trying to make it sound like I'm not a demanding guy!! Thank yoou - ǀ Mikay ǀ 12:09, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Revision history of Wikipedia:Request an account
Hi LaraLove,
If you don't mind please clear the page history of Wikipedia:Request an account once in a while. Instructions on how to do this can be found here.
Thanks!
The Helpful One (Talk) (Contribs) (Review) 13:09, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Done
- Please restore move protection (sysops only). Thanks The Helpful One (Talk) (Contribs) (Review) 18:39, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
what to do?
Hi Lara, I do not know if this is the right person/place but I've read the sockpuppet rules of wikipedia. Still it seems that the rules were broken inadverdently... so what do I do now? I still need to clear my name in this case against me. Thanks for your help.CompScientist (talk) 14:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Blocking of User:FA53764968566fgtu7757
I note that you have blocked FA53764968566fgtu7757 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log). This is one of the user accounts I have suspicions of being a sockpuppet of Fila3466757 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log). I have filed a sockpuppet report at Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Fila3466757. Your thoughts and comments would be most welcome. --Stewart (talk) 17:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- The name was posted at UAA. I don't know anything about their edits. Random string of letters and numbers. That's why I blocked. Lara❤Love 17:42, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Mentorship would be wonderfull
Thank you. I will gladly accept any help, as I am at my wit's end. Following guidelines, I tried to work through the user talk page and had my comment deleted without response. I reposted. Another deletion. Each time when pointing out the falsity of the claim that the filmology had to be deleted as not belonging on Wiki, and pointing out examples of their inclusion in other actor's articles, the coment was deleted. To my limited understanding, the next step is to seek help and advice from more experienced users. Doing that was considered a "rampage"? Is my acceptance of your offer also part of this "rampage"? And as for my calling this person a liar and a fool, that was in response to earlier and even more blatant edits by this individual in violation of Wiki policy and guideline... and before I knew more about your processes. I have since apologized for that rashness and have done my very best to be moderate in my responses to what I can only now view as a continued and deliberate attack. Mentorship? Please. And thank you. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 21:22, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- I've replied on your talk page and added you to my adoptee classroom. I also commented at ANI and I advise that you no longer comment on that thread or to or about Cumulus Cloud. Lara❤Love 21:50, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I'd love to corral you.
|
The Barnstar for Best Edit Summary | |
| You're awesome. Thanks for being my best friend. the_undertow talk 22:47, 19 January 2008 (UTC) |
- Hahaha! I love being your best friend! Thanks for being mine, too. :) i<3 Lara❤Love 02:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- You can see the very moment this kid turns gay. the_undertow talk 06:19, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- ROFL! Lara❤Love 06:21, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- I LOL'd!! Trevor "Tinkleheimer" Haworth 06:22, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'm thinking of using that as an avatar on a forum, but then people will think I am gay, or that I am the kid in the pic.Trevor "Tinkleheimer" Haworth 06:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- ROFL! Lara❤Love 06:21, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- You can see the very moment this kid turns gay. the_undertow talk 06:19, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Wait, what? There's a kid in the video? Lara❤Love 15:19, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Classroom
I'd just like to say that despite not being an adoptee or anything, your classroom's quite helpful. I've been on wikipedia for a few months now, but I've never read over the articles about AfD, NC, IA etc except for AgF - namely because I've never created an article or nominated one for deletion, just spend my time here reverting vandalism. But yeah, helpful. Apologies if my thoughts are disorganized or this doesn't read well. Th 2005 (talk) 23:16, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hey, thanks. I'm glad it's been helpful for you. That's great to know. Feel free to ask me any questions. I'm here to help. Lara❤Love 03:01, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Requesting comment again
This time for another page named So Far from the Bamboo Grove, a controversial book written by a Japanese American named Yoko Watkins for its portrayal of Koreans in the novel. A user named User:Amazonfire wants to add in this little factoid. [9] I ask for a source, and he gives me a Russian source. I ran it through a translator, which says the exact opposite of his claim. Yet he insists on adding it back in, accompanied by edit summaries that attack me and accuse me of being a vandal. [10]
I requested RfC quite a while ago, but it didn't bring any changes. Can you comment on the talk page please? Being Korean myself, I doubt that I'll be able to persuade him, if that's possible at all. Also, the controversy section may be too long and the "controversy" is an old one. Can you give a hand in condensing the section? Thanks. миражinred (speak, my child...) 06:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I also have questions about CheckUser. User:AmazonFire and multiple Japanese IPs have been making the same edits, which I think warrants a bit of background check. Can I use checkuser to check for an account and IPs? миражinred (speak, my child...) 06:45, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Report the user and the IPs to WP:SSP. I look over the rest today. Lara❤Love 13:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I would like it as a doppelganger, please. Thanks! Karen Carpenter (talk) 06:46, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Conspiracy or Joke?
I heard of the Bathrobe Cabal. I heard that the word "Cabal" means conspiracy but your cabals sounds funny. Because I don't want to accuse anyone. I'm just saying is it just funny or is it really a Cabal? But if it's a cabal
--Angel David (talk) 16:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think actual Cabals can publicly state that they are, in fact, a Cabal. That would kind of defeat the purpose. However, I suppose they could put up a front as to appear to be a joke, while actually being a Cabal. That would probably be acceptable. As far as how all that relates to the Illustrious BRC, bathrobes are note evil, and we're really more of an organization. ;) --TRANSMISSION ENDS--
- Now it's really clear. the_undertow talk 00:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- See that's the ticket. If we tell everyone we ARE a Cabal, then they will expect we are NOT a Cabal, which will play into our plans to be a REAL Cabal. Its like hiding in plain sight. They totally wouldn't expect it. Like re-re-reverse psychology! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 19:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- Now it's really clear. the_undertow talk 00:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)