Talk:New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell University

History expansion

This page has a comprehensive history of the ILR School that should be incorporated into this article. —Eustress ^talk 07:09, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Article name

I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with the recent change of the name of the article from Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations to ILR School. I reviewed the guidelines at WP:TITLE and I think either name could be argued for. In particular, it seems that the criteria "Common name" and "Conciseness" are generally weighted heavily. See below for my take on the two names vis a vis some of the criteria:

Criterion	Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations	ILR School	Cornell University ILR School
Common name	Fair	Good	Good
Conciseness	Poor	Very good	Good
Recognizability	Very good	Fair	Good
Naturalness	Good	Good	Good
Precision	Very good	Fair	Good
Consistency	Very good	Fair	Good

Edited to add "Cornell University ILR School" —Bill Price (nyb) 06:35, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

The main thing I dislike about the long form is its poor concision, and the main thing I dislike about the short form is that it's imprecise. Particularly bad is that it is inconsistent with Cornell University College of Agriculture and Life Sciences, Cornell University College of Architecture, Art, and Planning, Cornell University College of Arts and Sciences, Cornell University College of Engineering, Cornell University School of Hotel Administration, Cornell University College of Human Ecology, Cornell University Graduate School, Cornell Law School, Weill Cornell Medical College of Cornell University, Weill Cornell Graduate School of Medical Sciences, Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine, and New York State College of Forestry at Cornell, all of which include "Cornell" in their titles. Note that there is an exception in Johnson Graduate School of Management, though. I'm also not sure why eustress (talk · contribs) removed the sourced prose clarifying that "The ILR School" is not the legal name of the school, but is rather an ad-hoc branding strategy. —Bill Price (nyb) 01:16, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

As your analysis above illustrates, there are tradeoffs either way, but since http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/ doesn't mention the full name anywhere, I thought the change best. I really favor the more concise names now that third parties use Wikipedia naming conventions when piping text (e.g., Facebook community pages); however, for Wikipedia's purposes, perhaps it would be best to move to "Cornell University ILR School"? —Eustress ^talk 03:56, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

"Cornell University ILR School" addresses the issues of recognizability, precision, and consistency. It also appears to pass the "Common name" test, given that it is the wording used on some 3rd-party websites like this one as well as on the school's own Facebook page. All in all, I think it's a good compromise between brevity and precision. —Bill Price (nyb) 06:33, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Branding

Wikipedia must follow the facts, regardless of what a PR man wants. I had reservations when we first moved the article form New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell to Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations. The reason given was that the article title starting with Cornell would be easier for users to find. However, since then, the business school article has been renamed "Johnson Graduate School of Management" So, if it is permissible to have an article reflect the official name of a school (as well as its major benefactor) I would vote to move this back to "New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell" Racepacket (talk) 00:59, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree; note that, for example, Wikipedia prefers Bill Clinton over William Jefferson Clinton, despite the fact that the former is a nickname and the latter is the "official" legal name. See WP:TITLE. I think that "Cornell University ILR School" is probably the best compromise vis a vis the title selection criteria. —Bill Price (nyb) 01:09, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Bill presents a good example, and to his point, I have compromised and put the full, historical name in bold in the lead sentence (similar to how Bill Clinton's full name is presented first), then with ILR in parentheses to indicate it as the preferred abbreviation throughout the article and the name the school primarily goes by. Regarding the infobox, usually the more common name goes at top (see again, Bill Clinton). I put "ILR at Cornell University," but "ILR" or "ILR School" would also fit the "bill" (no pun intended). —Eustress ^talk 01:16, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

Cornell University ILR School → New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations — There is no agreement as to what name to use for this article, so me might as well go with the actual official name. See NYS Education Law § 5715. Racepacket (talk) 01:13, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

You haven't even made a concerted effort to reason about this here, and already you're going to WP:RM... this seems quite disruptive. —Eustress ^talk 01:19, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Eustress and I already discussed this issue and came to a compromise we were both happy with; your late entrance into the debate doesn't qualify as there being "no agreement". If your concern is about promotion, boosterism, or some other issue pertaining to point of view, all I can do is to point you again to WP:TITLE... my instinct was that a longer, more-precise title would be preferable, but the established conventions actually do promote the use of whatever name happens to be in common use. —Bill Price (nyb) 01:28, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Criterion	Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations	ILR School	Cornell University ILR School	New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations (per Racepacket)	New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations (per Notyourbroom)
Common name	Fair	Good	Good	Good	Poor
Conciseness	Poor	Very good	Good	Fair	Poor
Recognizability	Very good	Fair	Good	Very good	Fair
Naturalness	Good	Good	Good	Good	Fair
Precision	Very good	Fair	Good	Very good	Very good
Consistency	Very good	Fair	Good	Very good	? (Which articles is it consistent with?)

The name also recognizes the fact that the school is a unit of both Cornell University and the State University of New York at the same time. Racepacket (talk) 01:26, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

The association with the State University of New York is technically correct, but in common usage, does anyone really refer to it that way? It's housed on the campus of Cornell University and considered a part of that university, so I can't imagine how pushing the SUNY connection enhances its recognizability or naturalness. —Bill Price (nyb) 01:33, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Also relevant is Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(companies), which states that "The legal status suffix of a company...is not normally included in the article title". Noting in the article title that it is affiliated with the SUNY system strikes me as more an issue of legal status than of anything else. —Bill Price (nyb) 01:36, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

The name came before SUNY was created. I think it is more like the Johnson School - the school is named after a benefactor who provides millions per year in annual support as well as the cost of the buildings. I would no more work toward remove the name of the benefactor of the Industrial Labor Relations School than I would go out of my way to remove the name of the benefactor of the business school. The name of the school has remained the same since 1944, while the Johnson School was renamed most recently in 1984, and most of its graduates attended before it got its new name. So there is a stronger reason for the benefactor's name to be used in this article than in the Johnson article. Racepacket (talk) 03:09, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

The article history is instructive. It started as New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations on April 1, 2004. It was moved to Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations on July 21, 2006. It was moved to ILR School on December 12, 2010, and then to Cornell University ILR School on December 13. I don't think that there is any long-standing consensus for dropping the words "Industrial and Labor Relations" from the title. The ILR disamb page shows how many other meaning those letters have in the general public. Other similar schools spell out the name, for example, UIUC Institute of Labor and Industrial Relations. Other statutory college articles also spell out their subject matter, see New York State College of Ceramics and State University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry. Racepacket (talk) 01:55, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Undergraduate program

The article states that the school "remains the only institution of higher education with a four-year undergraduate program focused on work and employment." It appears that the University of Minnesota offers both an undergraduate major and minor in Human Resources. http://www.carlsonschool.umn.edu/cms/Page5883.aspx. (UM also offers a masters and PhD program.) Anyway, most other universities offer only master degrees in this area. E.g., http://hrlr.msu.edu/about/ and http://www.ilir.uiuc.edu/. It appears that many employers want someone with a masters degree as an entry into human resources/labor relations. It is not clear that people use their undergraduate degrees to enter this field and that a larger percentage of graduates go onto law school and then practice law in areas other than labor relations. Is the current wording of the article a bit misleading? Racepacket (talk) 14:14, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

• Protection Other improvements could be made to the article, but it appears you are still trying to make edits related to the naming of the school; therefore, protection is prudent here. Let's resolve the naming issue first. —Eustress ^talk 14:09, 18 December 2010 (UTC)