Talk:Administrative geography of the United Kingdom

Map request

Maps already exist that could go on this page but the problem is deciding what layer of subdivision to use. As they are somewhat complicated and the sub-articles provide them anyway I would suggest none. MRSC 16:07, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps a conscious and motivated selection of maps - perhaps just one - to illustrate (ordered hierarchically?) which functions or layers are related to which administrative subdivisons. This would help the reader to get a quick overview. On the other hand, the Scotland and England artcicles seem somewhat confusing, to me at least. //Big Adamsky 16:13, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

The CIA factbook map that you just inserted shows no administrative borders at all. Just the international border. Big Adamsky 16:16, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

The structure is unfortunately so complex that to include maps would require pulling futher information out of the articles to explain them - effectively repeating the sub-articles. England alone has four levels of divisions and at one level (county) they are split into four types of unit which may (or may not) be then further divided by another two levels. That said, I have found at least one map that requires no further explanation. MRSC 16:18, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Venn [Euler] Diagram of the The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

Sam has made up a Venn [Euler] Diagram that can be found at http://qntm.org/uk, i am not sure of the licence, but it may be of intrest as a link to. SkippyUK 13:02, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

This Venn Diagram is that of the British Isles and not the United Kingdom, thus i propose it should be removed as to avoid confusion between both terms. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  22:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I beleve tt it covers both topics; and as such should be worthy of consideration SkippyUK (talk) 21:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Constituent country v. constituent part

According to Permanent Committee on Geographical Names for British Official Use, Ordnance Survej of Great Britain and International Organization for Standardization UK consisting 4 constituent parts: 2 countries (England and Scotland), 1 principality (Wales) and 1 province (Northern Ireland) [1], [2]. So, informations in this article are wrong. Aotearoa from Poland (talk) 17:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Officially, maybe so - but within the UK, the terms "nation" and "country" are very widely used. I've amended the article to mention this. Bazonka (talk) 20:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

So, in Wikipedia we should use the official one. Aotearoa from Poland (talk) 16:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The terms "nation" and "country" are so widely used that it would be unthinkable not to refer to them. I'm not entirely sure that "principality" and "province" are official anyway (the documents you referred to are not necessarily authoritative) Bazonka (talk) 11:26, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

But, there are no sources in this article, so this is rather OR. Paper [3] is very official, because this is official documet presented by UK athorities on Ninth United Nations Conference on the Standardization of Geographical Names (August 2007). So, if there are no official sources for terms "nation" and "country" they should be replaced by terminology from official documents (and informations about "very widely used" terms "nation" and "country" are allowed in annotations). Aotearoa from Poland (talk) 22:37, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

If you look at the talk page on Constituent country you will find numerous citations of UK Government web sites which use the phrase country. I repeat them here.

1. 10 Downing Street website "The United Kingdom is made up of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland."
2. 10 Downing Street website "Gordon Brown will travel to Wales today in his first visit to the country as Prime Minister."
3. The Wales Office (Government Department for Wales) "Wales is a small but clever country. ...The remainder of the country is predominantly rural in character."
4. Welsh Assembly Government Their strategic agenda is called "Wales: A Better Country".
5. Visit Wales (the Welsh Tourist Board) "For a small country we have a varied and dramatic landscape"
6. The Queen's Speech on the opening of the Welsh Assembly building "It is now up to you, by giving meaning to the ideals and aspirations of those you serve, by expressing the spirit of your rich and ancient culture, by shaping the very future of this country, to make this National Assembly a true symbol of Wales."
7. The 2001 UK Census (country of birth: England, Scotland, Wales, N.Ireland, ROIreland, elsewhere)
8. The Office of National Statistics ("In the context of the UK, each of the 4 main subdivisions (England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) is referred to as a country)".

--Snowded (talk) 01:14, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The vast bulk of the UK text on the Constituent country would be more appropriate on this page. --Barryob (Contribs) (Talk) 21:55, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

• (Support) I agree, it adds no value in its own right --Snowded (talk) 22:17, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
• (Oppose) I'm afraid I don't agree. The page constituent country is an explanation of the phrase, but this page is not the place to discuss semantics of that sort - this page should describe 'the subdivisions'. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 22:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

* (Support) I agree with the merge. Subdivisions of the United Kingdom should discuss the subdivisons not constituent country.WikipÉIRE\^(caint) 13:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record, this user has been inef blocked for multiple sock using, so striking his vote. --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

• Disagree - there is a need for both articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.55.138 (talk) 15:34, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Any reasons why you feel that way?WikipÉIRE\^(caint) 15:43, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi there. As I read it, the constituent country article is about any country in the world that is made up of constituent countries and not just the UK. Subdivisions of the UK is about all levels of subdivision (not just constituent county) within the UK alone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.55.138 (talk) 16:18, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

• Support for the merge. Keeping the sections separate has always stemmed unnecessary controversies. The content all deals with one issue - and as such, keeping them separate appears quite a random choice to make. 125.244.178.2 (talk) 12:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
• Merge the section: clearly a fork. The rump of constituent country should probably go to Wiktionary, but that is a different discussion. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 22:36, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
• Weak support for merge --fone4me 10:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
• Strong oppose This is the preferred government term, if the article is to exist it must include a UK section, so why merge? -MichiganCharms (talk) 16:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
  • If the merge goes ahead, there is no reason not to leave a (lengthy) summary behind at Constituent country#United Kingdom --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 17:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
• Support. I've no problem with this merger; one can easily pipe-link constituent country to this article. GoodDay (talk) 20:46, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• Support (strong) As both are used, we can't fully merge the articles. But the section on the UK in constituent country should simply point here. The reason I have given a 'strong' support is because the word 'constuent countries' can theoretically be used for a number of cases. This article mentions the UK - so this article should have the UK detail. This is a clear merge situation to avoid forking.--Matt Lewis (talk) 17:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: The only two opposes above seem to have misunderstood the section-only nature of the merge. Am I right there? I'll perform the merge if nobody else does. --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I would wait a couple of days and see if the mediated solution on Wales (pipelinking to this) sticks. If so then we can merge and change Wales and England to pipelink here. --Snowded (talk) 18:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

(e/c) My view is "Please go ahead and do it, so long as overall quality of the text of this article does not suffer as a result." I think the quality of writing and exposition in Constituent Country is not as high as it is here. (After reading Snowded's comments: May be a short wait would be advisable.)  DDStretch  (talk) 18:09, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't we do this first as a clear consensus (or as good as it gets) is here? If there turns out to be just one person against proceeding, I don't care how vocal he/she is. Sometimes not to act is just to carry on wasting people's time. I'll give Wales another read then I'll I expect to make a merge, and we'll see if people like it.--Matt Lewis (talk) 18:26, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Matt, just wait, please. Go to the Wales site, agree the mediation (there is one against but that will be handled). 24 hours time we can then merge Constituent Country (you need to find somewhere for the non UK bits by the way. Then we can make the changes to Wales and England. If you merge now you will have to change Wales and England before the mediation is finalised and that will just cause issues More haste, less speed. 24 hours will not make a difference really.

Hang on - we are only merging the section, right? (not the entire article). It will redirect - so what's the issue. I'm not in a hurry - but stalling can also lead to not getting anywhere sometimes. I'll read Wales - lets sort out the intro here first anyway. --(talk) 18:50, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

24 hours and you have my complete agreement (unless the Wales page erupts)--Snowded (talk) 18:51, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Merge performed

As the country issue at Wales is now successfully resolved, I've made the merge.

I found it impossible to completely remove information on the UK in the constituent country article. Basically, it is because the term is in use for the UK, and so needs to be covered to some degree on the main article, including on a semantic level (ie the word "constituent"). Plase bear in mind that a lot of articles link to constituent country (like Cardiff in its infobox).

I've cut it down to (what felt like) the minimum text though, and linked to here as the 'main article'.

A lot of useful information has been moved over here. The new 'History' section may include some duplicated information and need some work. Looking through it seemed OK, but this is more something to work from than the finished article. --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:13, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Laws in Wales Acts

The Laws in Wales Acts are important to the history of Wales, but not particularly significant as far as the formation of the United Kingdom is concerned. By the time the Acts were passed, Wales was already controlled by England and the Acts just formally annexed Wales to put it under English law. That is totally different from the Treaty of Union which led to the Acts of Union in 1707 - in this case, two sovereign states agreed to merge to form a political union. If we are going to include the Laws in Wales Acts, what other events may we also have to include? The clear starting point for the United Kingdom was 1707 with the Treaty of Union - not the Laws in Wales Acts. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 18:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Its an interesting question. I think you can either take the Statute of Rhuddlan or the Laws in Wales Acts, Rhuddlan is probably the most significant for the history of the UK - how about that? --Snowded (talk) 19:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. Could I suggest that a possible way forward may be to include a reference to the Laws in Wales Acts in the third paragraph where it is discussing why England and Wales are sometimes treated as a single entity. I don't think it should be mentioned in the paragraph about the union of 1707. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 19:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Do we really need that paragraph about how the 4 countries united? It's not directly relevant to "Subdivisions of the United Kingdom", which describes the current state. At most, all that's needed is a reference to the History of the United Kingdom article. Bazonka (talk) 21:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think we do. It is important for readers to realise that the UK was not divided into 4 entities from the top down, as it were, but the other way about - what are now the subdivisions were the building blocks that created the union. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.55.138 (talk) 21:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, then all we need to say is something along the lines of "the UK was created from the merger of four countries - see History of the United Kingdom." Bazonka (talk) 22:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

On re-reading the article, I think you are right. The article does make clear that the UK is a political union of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - that is sufficient. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.55.138 (talk) 22:15, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Overall it wasn't a merger. Ireland and Wales were conqurered (the Northern Ireland aspect comes after the creation of the United Kingdom when all bar six counties of Ulster became Eire. Scotland choose to join, although the economic and other pressures make the use of the word choice difficult. You certainly can't say they merged - its a complex history and at least has to be signified. --Snowded (talk) 23:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

How about "amalgamation" then? Details of how these 4 countries were amalgamated should sit elsewhere. Perhaps include a short sentence on how part of one of those countries then became independent. Bazonka (talk) 06:38, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Well you might say something like "The development of the United Kingdom through a mixture of conquest form treaties of incorporation (needs a lawyer to get that phrase right) is the result of a complex history. During Roman times what is now England Wales and part of Scotland constituted the Roman province of X. The bulk of Scotland and Ireland comprised Y (something line a set of king and fiefdoms?). During the post Roman period up until the Norman Conquest successive invasions forced teh Romao-celts into what is now Wales and Cornwall (kernow). Cornwall was absorbed into Norman England (when?) and Wales conquered and incorporated through the Statute of Rhuddlan. Ireland moved in and out of English influence over the years but was finally incorporated in Z. Scotland remained an independent nation until Y when the Act of Union created a common parliament, but maintained differences in the legal and other systems. The early part of the 20th Century the Irish independence movement gained strength resulting in the creation or Eire. However six counties of Northern Ireland, albeit with their own Parliament were maintained with what was now know as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". It could be worded a lot better but that sort of makes the point? --Snowded (talk) 06:52, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

My point is that none of that is relevant. Keep it short, brief and to the point. This is not the UK History article.

"The United Kingdom was created from the amalgamation of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. The majority of Ireland subsequently became independent, leaving just six counties within the UK, now known as Northern Ireland. See History of the United Kingdom."

No other information is needed here. Bazonka (talk) 07:29, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

UK, now known as Northern Ireland. See History of the United Kingdom."

I think the history is relevant, even here. However lets see what other people think. Possibly something between the two would make sense--Snowded (talk) 12:41, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) in the absence of further comment I implemented the earlier suggest of Fishiehelper2 to use the third paragraph, leaving the introduction as it stands.

"Country within a country" wording proposal

Come look see here and vote. MickMacNee (talk) 02:10, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

How many?

How many of these articles which describe the geographic and political terminology with regard to the British Isles now exist?!? This is getting ridiculous! Feel free to merge this with one of the others. --Setanta747 (talk) 01:19, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Unambiguous Introduction

Better version: "The subdivisions of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (commonly known as the 'United Kingdom', or 'UK') is a term that is used to describe the political union of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. All of these (variously described as countries, constituent countries, and nations) have developed into the current structure of the United Kingdom over hundreds of years. Wales is also referred to as a principality, and Northern Ireland as a province. Calling Northern Ireland a both a country is disputed, particularly within the nationalist community.[citation needed]"

I've re-written to the above, because if this is going to be linked to in Wales (or anywhere else), it think it needs to be clear and unambiguous. --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

The current page has been reverted back to this preceding vcersion ('pending talk' - but why? And where is the proposed talk? Must we poll on everything?):

Preceding version: "The subdivisions of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (commonly known as the 'United Kingdom', or 'UK') are complex, multi-layered and non-uniform, varying between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. They have developed into the current structure over hundreds of years. The United Kingdom is a political union of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. These are commonly termed nations or countries, though Wales is also referred to as a principality and Northern Ireland as a province. Calling Northern Ireland a country is disputed, particularly within the nationalist community.[citation needed]"

I can't accept a merger, or Wales pointing here if it is an unprofessional article. The line "are complex, multi-layered and non-uniform, varying between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. " is weasel-worded waffle. Encyclopaedic language only, please. --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:45, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Matt please calm down. It clearly needs changing but your version (and the current one) both have problems. No one wants a poll or is suggesting one, but neither can we have an edit war. In respect of this Its not a political Union (well Scotland and England is) but Wales was annexed and Ireland is very complex. So the current version is wrong. The first sentence of your proposed change also reads badly. It does need changing and I liked my variant, but in the interest of compromise how about this

"The subdivisions of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (commonly known as the 'United Kingdom', or 'UK') are England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. All of these (variously described as countries, constituent countries, and nations) have developed into the current structure of the United Kingdom over the past 700 years. Wales is at times referred to as a principality, and Northern Ireland as a province. Calling Northern Ireland a country is disputed, particularly within the nationalist community.[citation needed]"

That's fine - can you put it in? By the way, given what I've been through lately, I'd appreciate it if you stop saying "calm down" to me! I have already said I'll read through everything first. I won't do anything rash, but I'm not letting a single editor 'stop play' either (if that is the case). --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Done, sorry about the "calm down" know how you feel! --Snowded (talk) 19:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I can see it's not been great (as per the last few months) but people need to know they can't stall things forever. I have been rushing the typing a bit - but only because I have to go out soon. I won't rush anything else. In fact, not to rush myself at all, it I'll leave it now and come back to it in a couple of hours (I've not been through Wales talk properly yet). I support the above parag if any merging or linking happens, anyhow. --Matt Lewis (talk) 19:06, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Just coming into this from a different perspective; I'm concerned we're writing original research here. "The subdivisions of the UK are England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland", um, are they? Who says? My point is that the UK is not subdivided on the basis of four parts, but rather, united on this basis. Also, a publication submitted by the UK to the United Nations Economic and Social Council states England (and Sco/Wls/NI) "should not be considered as a first-order administrative division". The traditional subdivisions of the UK have been the county and the ecclesiastical parish, whilst historically, the ward and constituency are also the UKs political and pan-uk subdivisions. --Jza84 |  Talk  22:10, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I take your point, and think a name-change might be on the cards: how about to "Countries of the United Kingdom", which could also include Northern Ireland if only to say its status is complex and not as acceptably a country as the others are? The biggest problem is knowing how to name the article, and I have no doubt that I will be taken to task for this suggestion.  DDStretch  (talk) 22:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, if we managed to secure a consensus, we could pipe the UK/Eng/Sco/Wls/NI articles' use of "country" (or whatever) to this page with a view to ending the entire edit war. --Jza84 |  Talk  22:24, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

See the mediation on Talk:Wales by Keeper76, which suggests doing just that. (I'm glad I added the table of RSs to this article now.)  DDStretch  (talk) 22:28, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I've not seen this article until today, but I've assumed that the term is used officially in places? If it isn't I'm not sure about the name either. But assuming the name is in use, how about (going back to my original suggestion) "The subdivisions of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (commonly known as the 'United Kingdom', or 'UK') is a term that is used to describe the political union of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales." And, for the better flow Snowded wanted, followed by "These 'subdivisions' (variously decsribed...".

"Countries of the United Kingdom" won't be accepted by everyone, that much is for sure! I personally believe Northern Ireland is clearly a created country, and the others are countries too: but if some people insist they aren't, I'm not sure I could justifying forcing a name change on them. However, it could stop hours of future (and futile) debate if Wikipedia itself recognised that these are indeed 'countries' (which it is intitled to do per the 'common name' policy/guideline). Maybe a specialist on NI could give an opinion on it. --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:37, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I've tweaked the intro to reflect the above concerns.

I'm supporting the poll in Wales for a piped link to here from its introduction - as it has started, and seems like the product of a lot of work. I'll also carry on my support (and preperation) for merging the duplicated material in constituent country to here (which seems to have reached consensus now). It seems wisest to follow consensus. Maybe at a later date we could all consider a name change for this article. I don't think that many have come across this page until now!--Matt Lewis (talk) 00:48, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Map of UK - colour and labels

Would anyone complain if I get photoshop out make Wales red and England white, as they tradionally are? The neutrals are grey, so nothing would clash. I'll also label each UK country (but no other, to avoid confusion). I'll give the image a new name so people can still use the old one. Some people are colour blind, so Wikipedia shouldn't so often only label things via a colour-key, anyway. --Matt Lewis (talk) 01:57, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Do it. It would probably be politically safer to change NI to a neutral colour, not green or orange. Bazonka (talk) 07:14, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm the creator of the image. I gave each country specific colours due to one of two reasons cultural tradition and/or patron saints flag

England Red = cultural tradition (e.g. english football colours) and the flag of St. George (red on White)

• England play first in white. The accepted national colour is white (though red can be used).

Wales Yellow = cultural tradition (e.g. welsh football colours) and flag of St. David (Yellow on Black)

• Wales play first in red. The accepted national colour is red (though green can been used).

Scotland Blue = cultural tradition (e.g. scottish football colours) and the flag of St. Andrew (White on Blue)

• Agreed.

N. Ireland Green = cultural tradition (e.g. irish football colours)

• Green is allied to The Republic of Ireland, orange to Britain, and white to England, so those (or colours too close to them) can all be problematic. --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:28, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I feel that they represent the traditional and cultural colours of each nation rather well. Though I must say I haven't thought about putting names on each country. It might work. Any images that might give a good representation of what you were thinking about? -- Phoenix (talk) 08:19, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

OK but you are wrong. Wales in football and rugby play in red and England in white (they have an alternate red strip. Red has always been the traditional colour of Wales, White that of England so can we please change it. I also agree that it is very important to avoid either GREEN or ORANGE for Northern Ireland. Thanks. --Snowded (talk) 08:37, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Snowded.

Yellow for Wales seems a bit strange. Their football team wears red (Is yellow the away strip? Don't think I've ever seen it). Red is on the flag of Wales - yellow isn't (how often do you see St David's flag - rarely if ever). I really don't associate yellow with Wales (except for daffodils, and that's a bit tenuous). So surely red is a more appropriate colour.

And if red is to represent Wales, then it can't be used for England. White seems much better to me - it's the home football strip colour, and it's the main colour on the flag.

Green is an Irish colour, but it only represents one of the communities of NI. (It's the colour of their football strip for historic reasons.) Although I can see arguments for using it, I feel that a non-sectarian colour would be better - perhaps your yellow could be used here? Although this isn't "Irish", it's less likely to offend.

I agree that Scotland should be blue. Bazonka (talk) 08:45, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

If there's any element of conflict here, we could just use four pure colours (i.e. Red, Yellow, Blue, Green). Although I won't lose any sleep over the consensus that will be made whatever it may be. Just a suggestion. :) --Jza84 |  Talk  16:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

OK then. Scotland = blue (it's on the flag); England = red (it's on the flag); Wales = green (it's on the flag); NI = yellow (it's not green or orange). Bazonka (talk) 17:09, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

As it is easy to change once started, they can always be changed in turn. I could try:

Scotland = blue, England = white, Wales = red, Northern Ireland = pure bright yellow (ie between orange and green, and not leaning either way).

Does anyone feel they could never accept that? I think the bright white for Enlgand will work against the light blue sea - if it doesn't we can always try again, or I can deepen the grey. --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:16, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) You could try it out, posting the map here (may be even with a few others so long as it does not make too much work for you). Then we can have an actual look at the possibilities and see what it is or they are like. Just a thought. (Let's hope no one gets too sensitive over the idea that yellow may be associated with the Pope.)  DDStretch  (talk) 18:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

OK - I'll do that (probably late tonight).

I'll make a start anyway (and do a few), and ongoing suggestions are welcome: especially for NI. Mauve, black - dark grey? Remember I am labelling too. If yellow is likely to be offensive then we can't use it imo, though I'll do a version. --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I only mentioned yellow as perhaps being associated with the papacy because of the colours used on the papal flag (yellow and white, though it used to be red and gold) and someone I knew who was a catholic was adamant that yellow was a papal colour. Somehow, I suspect that reasons could be found for objecting to any colour, though, as I said, I think one would have to be very sensitive to object to yellow as far as I know (neither being a catholic nor having any direct day to day experience of the extent to which religious differences have affected Northern Ireland.  DDStretch  (talk) 18:35, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm certain no-one will be offended by yellow for NI. My suggestion above (with red for England and green for Wales) would avoid any problems with white being too pale, but otherwise I'm happy with Matt's suggestion. Bazonka (talk) 18:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Yellow is OK, but Green is not a national colour for Wales, its RED and WHITE for England. If you don;t what White for England then find another colour, don't take Wale's, or use the Irish colour as an alternative --Snowded (talk) 19:55, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Bit of a can of worms now! I suggest we put the whole national colours things to rest and use those suggested at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Maps#Vote_on_standard_colors_and_gallery_of_exemplars (and example of which is here - and yes I did draw that!) --Jza84 |  Talk  20:08, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

It's got orange though - colours will always cross, like at Wales (which needs addressing too).

I'm not sure its such an 'open can', and I did ask for continued suggestions(!) I'll create a few examples and see how they go down, anyway. There's nothing like a visual choice.--Matt Lewis (talk) 20:20, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

So is it only Snowded and myself that think that Wales should be yellow and England should be red? -- Phoenix (talk) 23:01, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

It is only YOU. I have said clearly that Wales should be red and England white --Snowded (talk) 23:59, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Have the 4 in any color yas want. GoodDay (talk) 23:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I think I need to see some examples before I can make any well-founded choice: It's a practical applied psychological problem within the area of visual perception, and modified by various matters which are almost totally cognitive in nature, and I know enough about doing that within psychology to not be able to come to any strong a priori decisions about it. (I need to use techspeak every now and then to keep my "hand in".)  DDStretch  (talk) 23:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

By the way, what about color-blind editors? Err, that's another topic. GoodDay (talk) 23:17, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I did mention that GD - they are going to be labelled... in fact, they are done! Now how do you put images in tables?

Images in tables? I don't know how. GoodDay (talk) 20:17, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Map choices

Eight possibilities originally came up in the end (the last two - which I personally don't see as possibilities - have since been added). I couldn't see others that worked, myself. Mauve etc all looked too close to the two blues (or too close to green or orange). I think one country has to be very dark, unless yellow is used.

The arrows are a bit 'freehand' (but they can be done properly later - all these can be 'saved-over' easily) - this is about the colours and text placement. These are the same size as currently used, but can be made smaller/larger. I'm running a high resolution, and they look quite big, so I don't think they can really be made bigger as the thumbnail.

I think I favour the first - one of the first four anyway. Maybe number 7. --Matt Lewis (talk) 02:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I like 7 but they are all fine by me - great job Matt and thanks --Snowded (talk) 03:15, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Nice. I'd go for 3 or 7. Bazonka (talk) 08:13, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

My first preference would be for 7, followed closely by 3, then 1.  DDStretch  (talk) 08:32, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how you missed #9 after all that is what a few of us have been talking about! -- Phoenix (talk) 10:21, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I haven't missed it, I have rejected it because it does not use national colours. As far as I can see you remain the only one interested in it. --Snowded (talk) 10:37, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I suppose I could have included examples of England as red, given the labelling itelf is a new addition, and NI has changed. I didn't think to do it as it is essentially the current colouring - and it is so problematic. It almost reverse the traditional colours of Enlgand (white) and Wales (red). I could have also tried: England red, Wales blue, Scotland yellow, and NI white! But I wouldn't vote for it. Wales has to be red.--Matt Lewis (talk) 14:17, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Note 1 & 3, and 2 & 4 were identical so I have removed the images that were repeats. -- Phoenix (talk) 10:34, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, they are not identical, though if you have a monitor whose brightness is turned down, they may appear identical. Additionally, I indicated a preference for 3, and did this in the knowledge that it was not identical to one of the others, and so I think they should be kept in. So, I've reinstated them.  DDStretch  (talk) 11:02, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The second dark colour is a purple. --Matt Lewis (talk) 14:39, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

1	2
3	4
5	6
7	8
9	10

Poll on best map

If you have a second or furher choices, please leave them in order in brackets.

7 (3) --Matt Lewis (talk) 14:39, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

7 (3) (third: 1)  DDStretch  (talk) 15:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

7 (3) - looks like we have a clear winner Bazonka (talk) 16:16, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Go with 7 --Snowded (talk) 17:58, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

3/1 (9 7); Any of the 3 would be ok, But do they have to have the text included? That is not an objection b.t.w. I think it looks good, but does anyone foresee it causing any problems? -- Phoenix (talk) 19:25, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I think for this particular article the text is needed. I don't mind uploading versions without the text if they would be useful somewhere else - esp for consistency. (I could use the sames names without "labelled" in). This is looking like consensus but as there are a lot of '3's I'll leave it a bit longer, to make absolutely sure about the yellow! --Matt Lewis (talk) 19:36, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I've put number 7 in. I'll improve the arrows slightly at a later date (the England one extends just a fraction too near to Wales!) --Matt Lewis (talk) 15:40, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Merge proposal: discussion is at Countries of the United Kingdom

At Talk:Countries of the United_Kingdom#Merger proposal.

Lead section

OK, I made a change to the lead but this was reverted as "too bold" (see the comparison here). My objections:

• "Subdivisions of the United Kingdom is a term used to describe ENG/SCO/WLS/NI" - no it isn't. Completely unsourced.
• It puts a list into the lead, against WP:MOS, WP:LIST and WP:LEAD
• It tells me hardly anything about the subdivisions of the UK.
• Its forks material about devolution and parliamentary arrangements, not how the UK is subdivided.

I suggest a restoration. --Jza84 |  Talk  10:20, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

You are right - it's doing a job that the title doesn't identify: but we need somewhere with this particular material. How about the merge? I think your list-to-prose edit (a MOS I personally always found too rigid) was kept in, but the other stuff reverted. I thought myself some of it was awkward - but it's really to do with the title of the article: it is simply too ambiguous, and is not a common name. I don't want the spend any more time on this one fitting square pegs into round holes myself: I'd rather see it merged with Countries of the United Kingdom. --Matt Lewis (talk) 10:37, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm thinking that this article needs to go down the route of the British Isles and Second city of the United Kingdom articles. I.e. merely present the facts as they are, and in cases of citation conflict, be written within the spirit and letter of making for a purely neutral description of the issue in hand, allowing for zero poetic licence.

My particular gripe is with the first bulleted point above, and how I've expressed (in an above conversation) that ENG/SCO/WLS/NI "should not be considered as first level administrative divisions"; the UK is united on a basis of four "parts", not subdivided into them. --Jza84 |  Talk  23:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

The current wording is poor, but the change which I reverted was not neutral and simply ran the risk of reopening old (well regrettably recent) debates. Best to merge I think. --Snowded (talk) 23:14, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Can you explain how it wasn't neutral? That would have aided in making tweaks rather than a revert with the summary of "too bold". --Jza84 |  Talk  23:18, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

For a start there were a lot of changes, the main issue which would be bound to cause conflict was emphasising "parts" with "country" as a casual afterthought. We all put a lot of effort to get to something that can keep all but the extreme POV pushers happy and that syntax is "country which is a part" and variants. --Snowded (talk) 23:37, 20 July 2008 (UTC)