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== User:COFS ==
== User:COFS ==
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This is an impossible format. Advise taking it to [[WP:RFAR|RfAr]] (and/or [[WP:RFC/U|RFC]]). Topic ban while these efforts are undertaken, so long as they are, speedily. [[User:El C|El_C]] 21:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
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(Continued below per Jehochman's suggestion: [[WP:CSN#Response to Durova's request|here]]) [[User:Lsi john|Lsi john]] 17:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
(Continued below per Jehochman's suggestion: [[WP:CSN#Response to Durova's request|here]]) [[User:Lsi john|Lsi john]] 17:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.''<!-- from Template:discussion bottom --></div>



== User:Bus stop ==
== User:Bus stop ==

Revision as of 21:21, 26 June 2007

Template loop detected: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Community sanction/Header



User:COFS


User:Bus stop

The user has been the primary figure in a months-long edit war at List of notable people who converted to Christianity and other articles mentioning Bob Dylan's conversion to Christianity. He has been blocked three times for edits relating to Bob Dylan's conversion. [13] [14] [15] He contends that Bob Dylan never converted to Christianity, despite the existence of multiple reliable sources reporting the contrary. He refuses to accept broad consensus [16] concerning the inclusion criteria for the list, and insists that only persons who are presently Christians, and whose conversion conforms with his own strict criteria may be listed. He has made it clear through his words and actions that he will never accept any compromise measures on these matters.

Locking the article multiple times and discussing the dispute has not yielded any resolution, since the user will revert the consensus-supported edits made after the article is unlocked. [17] [18] [19] [20] The user's participation in the discussion has largely consisted of repeating the same argument that he has already posted many times to the discussion page. [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27] [28] [29] [30] [31] [32] [33] [34] He has accused those who disagree with his views of being antisemites and members of a "hate group." [35] [36] [37] [38] Two MedCab mediations have been attempted, with the latest mediator ending the mediation as irresolvable through that means. The user refuses to accept formal mediation. The latest attempt at reaching compromise, in which the user chose to take no part, resulted in 9 votes for including all converts (former and current) in the list, and 4 editors who have so far explicitly or implicitly agreed not to contest the majority-supported option.

This is no longer a content dispute, but a case of disruptive editing. It is clear that no progress can be made on this article as long as the user is allowed to edit it, since he will not respect consensus, or accept any compromise offer. Nick Graves 02:41, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It most certianly is a content dispute. There certianly is no consensus in the article. Me, Bus stop, and Cleo123 have simply been outnumbered by the numerous Christian evangelists in the article, so they declared consensus. His blocks were 3RR violations, which seem to have stopped. Stop trying to tilt the scale of the dispute in your favor by calling others disruptive and asking for a block. It looks like the arbcom case isn't going to pass; there really are only two ways we can solve this dispute at this point. We can resort to dirty tricks like this one, trying to block editors as being disruptive for having a different POV as yours and taking out your enemies one at a time like many throughout history have done, or we can do the right thing, and hope arbcom reconsiders our case. Otherwise, I don't know if this dispute will end. But please, be fair.--SefringleTalk 03:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Are these the types of edits you're talking about, Nick Graves? Example of Bus stop's edit to article and talk page message. If so you may want to gather more diffs to prove your point. If not, you should probably find some diffs to back up the assertions you've made. Anynobody 03:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In response to Sefringle: Your implication that there is some sort of evangelical Christian conspiracy to include Bob Dylan in the list does not stand up to scrutiny. There's little incentive for a Christian evangelist to crow over Dylan's conversion, as his current religious status is ambiguous. No editor involved in the discussion is a Christian evangelist, from what I can tell. There are at least two irreligious editors (myself included) and one of Jewish heritage (a former mediator) who support including ex-converts in the list. User T. Anthony, a Catholic, does not believe ex-converts should be listed, but agrees that the current consensus ought bo be respected for now. Bus stop decided to take no part in the latest attempt to find a compromise. Cleo chose not to continue in the last stage of the compromise effort. Your own preference in the last stage of the polling was to include ex-converts, though in a separate section of the article. Nick Graves 03:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say it was a conspiracy. Almost all of you are Christians however, not that that matters, but you have outnumbered us to declare consensus. Please read my comments more carefully in the futute. My vote was not consensus; it was simply taking the best of the two options. Now can you please respond to the rest of my comment? And can we please try to keep our comments shorter and more to the point in the future; it is kind of discouraging to read.--SefringleTalk 04:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Christian evangelists? Yikes. I'll have to expand this comment in the future, but I take a bit of offense to that labeling, as it is a misrepresentation of me, and as far as I can see, almost all other editors involved. For example, the only clearly Christian fellows are myself and John Carter, as well as T.Anthony, who opposes inclusion, but accepts the validity of the voting results. JJay, Drumpler, Ttiotsw, zadignose, Moralis, Gustav von Humpelschmumpel, and Tendancer are, as far as I know, all non-Christians, and they all more or less support the inclusion of these individuals. That being said, I don't see a Christian majority in any case, so I don't see why you're trying to paint that picture. Concerning Bus stop's edits, this is not a "dirty trick"- I'm sorry, but this user has been continuously disruptive, and this discussion is going nowhere but in circles with his involvement. He is extremely uncooperative and unrealistic, and decides that only his opinion of a matter is to be taken seriously, even deciding that his interpretation of reliable sources is more weighty than the sources themselves. I'm pressed for time, so I may just add to this later. Hopefully, supportive diffs will be extremely easy to find. Have a nice night, anyway.--C.Logan 04:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently you didn't read my last comment asking for shorter responses, but Oh well; I'll start. Obviously this discussion is going nowhere, which is why dirty tricks are being resorted to. My point is simple. There is no consensus.--SefringleTalk 04:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Your point is simply off the mark. I am not an "evangelist," nor a Christian, and I resent your lable, but not as much as I resent the never ending accusations of anti-semitism from Bus Stop. The question of Bob Dylan aside, I would move to ban Bus Stop even if he was in perfect agreement with me on every point, because he is the perfect example of a disruptive editor. He will never discuss, nor agree to abide by anyone else's judgment, and he can not participate in mediated discussion. Consensus, meanwhile, has been established, by agreement among many from both sides of the issue. Consensus doesn't mean unaninimity. You are one of the few who reject the established consensus. zadignose 05:01, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I do not reject the consensus. I have simply been outvoted, and I still stand where I do. I'm sorry if I offended you with the Christian evangalist label, but my point is there was no consensus to begin with. Wikipedia is not a democracy after all; it strives to build consensus. If it were a democracy, then yes, I'd simply be out of luck, and this discussion would be over. But it is not. Though I must admit talk page edit warring is disruptive.--SefringleTalk 05:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly my voting suggestions sounded too much like democracy. However it seemed clear a concensus was just not going to happen. We had been through two informal mediation and a month of debate. I felt like we needed a way to get people really working on some way to end the stalemate. Maybe this was a mistake and I should have been more patient. I am skeptical of that, but I'm open to the possibility. Also it's true I found the resolution disappointing because it is essentially the exact opposite of "compromise." Still I'll tolerate it because I said I would and because consensus or agreement or whatever you want to call it can change. Anyway I'm interested in what you think we should have done instead because perhaps there's something I'm not seeing. What do you think could've resulted in a true consensus? And what do you do when people are too stubborn or secure to come to any compromise?--T. Anthony 10:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said, I wouldn't call this a 'dirty trick'. Many individuals involved find this course of action reasonable and expected. You disagree, of course, and I understand. Cleo, I'm sure, would as well. However, you should not discount the other editors who find Bus stop's behavior extremely disruptive and grating. This individual is the one repeatedly removing my comments right now without proper details and reasoning, as well as T. Anthony's comment. And pardon the long response, but I kept it rather short- I think that what needs to be covered should be covered, and we shouldn't encourage others to constrict their comments to the point where they would be neglectful of important points. I will try to keep it trim in the future, however.--C.Logan 04:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't care much where you move my comments. Although I think people should get my permission before removing/deleting my comments. In the one case Bus stop could've removed the part where I quoted the post he withdrew about as easily as deleting it all.--T. Anthony 09:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The issue isn't so much whether Bob Dylan converted to Christianity or not. Sources use the word convert, so we use the word convert -- in relation to 1979. The list was titled List of notable converts to Christianity until a few days ago. But Bob Dylan is not a convert. He is not a Christian. He is a Jew. (He was born a Jew to two Jewish parents.) He has had nothing to do with Christianity in 27 years. He has been involved religiously with Orthodox Jews. Yet they want to list him with wording next to his name that he has left Christianity. He has no place on the list. People (living people) who are not Christians should be excluded from the list. That is what the old title clearly implied. And those are the parameters that the List of notable converts to Judaism adheres to. These are its parameters, found at the beginning of that article:

"This page is a list of Jews. This list of Jews should be restricted to individuals identified as Jews by reliable sources, in accordance with Wikipedia's verifiability and no original research policies. Any items not conforming to these policies may be removed immediately."

They are proper parameters because they are elemental parameters. They are restrictive parameters. They are parameters that prevent point of view pushing. The editors at that article have been arguing that the parameters are "all those notable people who ever converted to Christianity." That is just a contrivance. Just as it is just a contrivance to change the name of the article a few days ago. There are 200 other people on that list for whom the name change is irrelevant, because they are all Christians, or were Christian at time of death. The name change is all about Bob Dylan. They will argue it is also about two other names of non Christians. But this list shouldn't be use to "showcase" anyone who ever had an interest in Christianity. It should be a compilation of those Christians who found Christian identity by way of conversion, as opposed to the only other way -- by way of birth.Bus stop 04:31, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If I may, I would like to re-present my evidence from the ArbCom case where it was recommended we take this to other channels:
I was initially made aware of the dispute when a request for help was listed at WP:EAR[39] The issue largely revolves around an editor named Bus stop on the List of notable converts to Christianity article. Bus stop continually reverts editor contributions without discussion because of one individual: Bob Dylan.[40][41][42] As can be seen in the diffs, the user continually makes accusations of anti-semitism. It should be noted that Bus stop has had opportunities to participate in votes to determine consensus, but has opted not to do so.[43] If one checks the diffs, reliable sources abound of Dylan's former Christian status. However, instead of actually discussing, Bus stop repeats pretty much everything he's said in the past and makes little to no effort at communication.[44][45][46] However, a compromise was reached by all other editors where the article would be renamed to make clear that this is a list of people who converted to Christianity and that if their status changed, it would be noted in the footnotes.[47] No one, to my knowledge, has ever tried to portray Dylan as a Christian, but has desired to state that he was a Christian convert and believe the article should reflect that. Likewise, this user has demonstrated behaviour unbecoming of an editor to both mediators[48][49] and an admin[50]. Drumpler 07:34, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It should be noted that Bus Stop has now received his fourth block related to this issue, this time for a three revert violation (actually about seven reverts) on the TALK PAGE, where he has repeatedly removed other editor's comments. How much of this kind of behavior must be tolerated? zadignose 07:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've protected the article several times due to edit disputes. Regardless of the content disputes at the article, in my opinion at least there is some very disruptive editing patterns at the article and talkpage (given the recent silliness over deleted comments) as well as quite a bit of incivility at the talk page (and this has spilled over onto various involved editors' talkpages too). I don't care one way or another about the core content issue here, but the disruptive behavior needs to stop before this page is unprotected for editing.--Isotope23 13:40, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I believe that it might interest the individuals involved here that according to this page, Bus stop has had at best a total of 397 edits to mainspace content that was not directly involved in one of the two controversies over which he has expended over 1000 of his total 3000 edits to date on, those two controversies being over Michael Richards and Bob Dylan. While it is perhaps possible that he could in time become a good and productive editor, it is also possible that involvement in such disputes may be one of this editor's primary interests in wikipedia. He has in fact recently said on his talk page that wikipedia is ulimately based, from beginning to end, on what he calls "idealism", which from the context in which it was used seems to me to be, as he uses the term, a synonym for "opinion" or "point of view". If this is the case, and he was indicating that it is his belief that wikipedia is supposed to be made to conform to an individual point of view, then I believe that there may be sufficient cause to say that his goals in editing wikipedia are perhaps at least potentially in conflict with wikipedia's own goals of providing objective, neutral, verifiable information, and that it may be possible that the conflict in these two goals may not be reconcilable. John Carter 13:56, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Much of this I already posted on the arbcom page)
The List of notable converts to Christianity is at least the second time I have witnessed Bus Stop committing disruptive behavior. The first time was on the Michael Richards page, where he likewise continuously made edits over the objections of other editors. His m.o. back then was always saying "use talk page" as a reason to revert other people's edits, then ignore everyone else's discussion on the talk page even if e.g. it was 5 vs 1 against him--in short, it seems like "use talk page" was just being used as a shield/weapon to revert other users' contributions back to his changes, which often are the very definition of original research. We had content conflicts back then, and he continuously falsely accused me as a sockpuppet (of User:Wahkeenah, feel free to checkuser) including in edit summaries as a reason to revert my edits: [51], and WP:STALKed me to another page I frequently edit to revert my changes (in the process reverting a spam link) again using "use talk page" as a false reason: [52].
I participated on the List of notable converts to Christianity after noticing he got blocked twice for 3RR violations on Bob Dylan. [53]. His disruptive behavior seems to have gotten worse, especially now as User:Cleo123 (another disruptive editor whose m.o. is accusing others of "libel" in a very disrespectful tone) whom he befriended from the Michael Richards days) was often prodding and encouraging him, including advising him to refuse moderation and twice attacking mediators ad hominem. His m.o. now seems to have changed from "use talk page" to "anti-semitic" as his reason for discrediting all other's input whom he disagrees with.
In my opinion, Bus Stop is a disruptive editor who fits all criteria in WP:DE to a tee. I do believe he edits in "good faith"--in the sense that he probably doesn't consider himself disruptive and thinks he is making positive contributions to articles--however over the past 6 months his behavior has not changed: he continues to be unable to listen to and work with others, he continues to ignore sources (unless they support his opinions) and insist on committing original research, he does not care about how WP works and treats all articles as a blog for him to voice his own opinions (alarmingly even rhetoric-ed rules should be ignored and it's opinions that matters [54], and when others disagree with his opinions then basically he'll stay there to disrupt--for months if necessary, come hell or high water. I had been thinking that with time, his conduct would become more civil and less original research/soapboxing as there had been occasions where he made positivie contributions on other pages; however consider the rarity of those occasions and the sheer disruption he caused on the Michael Richards and especially List of notable converts to Christianity: we're talking months and hours/day at least half a dozen editors having to address his edits and personal attacks [55] [56], till eventually even more editors and mediators had to be pulled in...I have to say I think this user may just be irredeemable--he will never believe in WP policies, he'll never believe that WP is for replicating what verifiable sources say and not for him to treat as his blog of his views on the world, and he's better off not editing wikipedia. He just needs his own blog.
In summary, he has (and remember these are just a few sample, I can literally spend hours pulling up examples of his violations)
  • violated WP:NPA and WP:DE by disrupting the Michael Richards page for ~2 months, often using "use talk page" [57] or falsely accusing other of being sockpuppets [58] as false reason for revert
  • violated WP:STALK by stalking me to revert my edits (a removal of a spam link) again using "use talk page" [59]
  • violated WP:3RR and got blocked twice for 3RR violation on Bob Dylan [60]
  • violated WP:DE and blocked twice for edit warring and disruption on [List of Converts to Christianity]
  • violated WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA by personally attacking other users [61] [62]
  • violated WP:NOR stated he believe WP should be about opinions (specifically, his own opinions) and rules should not be followed [63]
  • openly stated he does not believe in WP:AGF [64] because everyone against him must be a dedicated small group of Christians intending to knock down Judaism (it's alarming User:Sefringle choose to employ the same tactic...last time I checked I for instance am an atheist, not that it should even matter)
  • refused a proposal for mediation (see his Talk page)
  • when the Mediation Cabal finally had to be invited, and two different mediators decided his obsession with one point had no merit (each time after another week of discussion to build a rough consensus), he personally attacked the mediators [65] [66] and accused them of bias and then ignored the rough consensus to continue disruption
This is not a content dispute, but a systematic pattern of WP policy violations by a single disruptive editor over a span of ~8 months. Yes on occasion he can contribute positively; but personally I find Bus Stop's sheer volume of disruption, personal attacks, complete flaunting of WP rules (primarily WP:NOR and WP:V as this user uses wikipedia like a WP:SOAPBOX to post long rants of his opinions without sources) outrageous. This user should be banned from editing all Judaism-related topics if not wikipedia altogether, as he has indicated no willingness to adapt to wiki rules or build consensus with others unless other's views agree with his own. Tendancer 16:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's a pretty good summary. zadignose 00:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Pretty long, if I don't say so myself. If someone could provide a short summary of that comment, it would be helpful.--SefringleTalk 01:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Short summary: Bus Stop is highly disruptive, and has violated virtually every policy and guideline on Wiki. zadignose 02:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The accusations check out: per WP:DE I've blocked Bus stop indefintely for persistent disruption and multiple long-term policy violations. DurovaCharge! 04:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And for the record, I've offered to unblock if Bus stop pledges to enter WP:ADOPT and avoid the article for three months. DurovaCharge! 19:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]



User:COFS


User:Bus stop

The user has been the primary figure in a months-long edit war at List of notable people who converted to Christianity and other articles mentioning Bob Dylan's conversion to Christianity. He has been blocked three times for edits relating to Bob Dylan's conversion. [79] [80] [81] He contends that Bob Dylan never converted to Christianity, despite the existence of multiple reliable sources reporting the contrary. He refuses to accept broad consensus [82] concerning the inclusion criteria for the list, and insists that only persons who are presently Christians, and whose conversion conforms with his own strict criteria may be listed. He has made it clear through his words and actions that he will never accept any compromise measures on these matters.

Locking the article multiple times and discussing the dispute has not yielded any resolution, since the user will revert the consensus-supported edits made after the article is unlocked. [83] [84] [85] [86] The user's participation in the discussion has largely consisted of repeating the same argument that he has already posted many times to the discussion page. [87] [88] [89] [90] [91] [92] [93] [94] [95] [96] [97] [98] [99] [100] He has accused those who disagree with his views of being antisemites and members of a "hate group." [101] [102] [103] [104] Two MedCab mediations have been attempted, with the latest mediator ending the mediation as irresolvable through that means. The user refuses to accept formal mediation. The latest attempt at reaching compromise, in which the user chose to take no part, resulted in 9 votes for including all converts (former and current) in the list, and 4 editors who have so far explicitly or implicitly agreed not to contest the majority-supported option.

This is no longer a content dispute, but a case of disruptive editing. It is clear that no progress can be made on this article as long as the user is allowed to edit it, since he will not respect consensus, or accept any compromise offer. Nick Graves 02:41, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It most certianly is a content dispute. There certianly is no consensus in the article. Me, Bus stop, and Cleo123 have simply been outnumbered by the numerous Christian evangelists in the article, so they declared consensus. His blocks were 3RR violations, which seem to have stopped. Stop trying to tilt the scale of the dispute in your favor by calling others disruptive and asking for a block. It looks like the arbcom case isn't going to pass; there really are only two ways we can solve this dispute at this point. We can resort to dirty tricks like this one, trying to block editors as being disruptive for having a different POV as yours and taking out your enemies one at a time like many throughout history have done, or we can do the right thing, and hope arbcom reconsiders our case. Otherwise, I don't know if this dispute will end. But please, be fair.--SefringleTalk 03:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Are these the types of edits you're talking about, Nick Graves? Example of Bus stop's edit to article and talk page message. If so you may want to gather more diffs to prove your point. If not, you should probably find some diffs to back up the assertions you've made. Anynobody 03:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In response to Sefringle: Your implication that there is some sort of evangelical Christian conspiracy to include Bob Dylan in the list does not stand up to scrutiny. There's little incentive for a Christian evangelist to crow over Dylan's conversion, as his current religious status is ambiguous. No editor involved in the discussion is a Christian evangelist, from what I can tell. There are at least two irreligious editors (myself included) and one of Jewish heritage (a former mediator) who support including ex-converts in the list. User T. Anthony, a Catholic, does not believe ex-converts should be listed, but agrees that the current consensus ought bo be respected for now. Bus stop decided to take no part in the latest attempt to find a compromise. Cleo chose not to continue in the last stage of the compromise effort. Your own preference in the last stage of the polling was to include ex-converts, though in a separate section of the article. Nick Graves 03:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say it was a conspiracy. Almost all of you are Christians however, not that that matters, but you have outnumbered us to declare consensus. Please read my comments more carefully in the futute. My vote was not consensus; it was simply taking the best of the two options. Now can you please respond to the rest of my comment? And can we please try to keep our comments shorter and more to the point in the future; it is kind of discouraging to read.--SefringleTalk 04:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Christian evangelists? Yikes. I'll have to expand this comment in the future, but I take a bit of offense to that labeling, as it is a misrepresentation of me, and as far as I can see, almost all other editors involved. For example, the only clearly Christian fellows are myself and John Carter, as well as T.Anthony, who opposes inclusion, but accepts the validity of the voting results. JJay, Drumpler, Ttiotsw, zadignose, Moralis, Gustav von Humpelschmumpel, and Tendancer are, as far as I know, all non-Christians, and they all more or less support the inclusion of these individuals. That being said, I don't see a Christian majority in any case, so I don't see why you're trying to paint that picture. Concerning Bus stop's edits, this is not a "dirty trick"- I'm sorry, but this user has been continuously disruptive, and this discussion is going nowhere but in circles with his involvement. He is extremely uncooperative and unrealistic, and decides that only his opinion of a matter is to be taken seriously, even deciding that his interpretation of reliable sources is more weighty than the sources themselves. I'm pressed for time, so I may just add to this later. Hopefully, supportive diffs will be extremely easy to find. Have a nice night, anyway.--C.Logan 04:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently you didn't read my last comment asking for shorter responses, but Oh well; I'll start. Obviously this discussion is going nowhere, which is why dirty tricks are being resorted to. My point is simple. There is no consensus.--SefringleTalk 04:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Your point is simply off the mark. I am not an "evangelist," nor a Christian, and I resent your lable, but not as much as I resent the never ending accusations of anti-semitism from Bus Stop. The question of Bob Dylan aside, I would move to ban Bus Stop even if he was in perfect agreement with me on every point, because he is the perfect example of a disruptive editor. He will never discuss, nor agree to abide by anyone else's judgment, and he can not participate in mediated discussion. Consensus, meanwhile, has been established, by agreement among many from both sides of the issue. Consensus doesn't mean unaninimity. You are one of the few who reject the established consensus. zadignose 05:01, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I do not reject the consensus. I have simply been outvoted, and I still stand where I do. I'm sorry if I offended you with the Christian evangalist label, but my point is there was no consensus to begin with. Wikipedia is not a democracy after all; it strives to build consensus. If it were a democracy, then yes, I'd simply be out of luck, and this discussion would be over. But it is not. Though I must admit talk page edit warring is disruptive.--SefringleTalk 05:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly my voting suggestions sounded too much like democracy. However it seemed clear a concensus was just not going to happen. We had been through two informal mediation and a month of debate. I felt like we needed a way to get people really working on some way to end the stalemate. Maybe this was a mistake and I should have been more patient. I am skeptical of that, but I'm open to the possibility. Also it's true I found the resolution disappointing because it is essentially the exact opposite of "compromise." Still I'll tolerate it because I said I would and because consensus or agreement or whatever you want to call it can change. Anyway I'm interested in what you think we should have done instead because perhaps there's something I'm not seeing. What do you think could've resulted in a true consensus? And what do you do when people are too stubborn or secure to come to any compromise?--T. Anthony 10:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said, I wouldn't call this a 'dirty trick'. Many individuals involved find this course of action reasonable and expected. You disagree, of course, and I understand. Cleo, I'm sure, would as well. However, you should not discount the other editors who find Bus stop's behavior extremely disruptive and grating. This individual is the one repeatedly removing my comments right now without proper details and reasoning, as well as T. Anthony's comment. And pardon the long response, but I kept it rather short- I think that what needs to be covered should be covered, and we shouldn't encourage others to constrict their comments to the point where they would be neglectful of important points. I will try to keep it trim in the future, however.--C.Logan 04:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't care much where you move my comments. Although I think people should get my permission before removing/deleting my comments. In the one case Bus stop could've removed the part where I quoted the post he withdrew about as easily as deleting it all.--T. Anthony 09:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The issue isn't so much whether Bob Dylan converted to Christianity or not. Sources use the word convert, so we use the word convert -- in relation to 1979. The list was titled List of notable converts to Christianity until a few days ago. But Bob Dylan is not a convert. He is not a Christian. He is a Jew. (He was born a Jew to two Jewish parents.) He has had nothing to do with Christianity in 27 years. He has been involved religiously with Orthodox Jews. Yet they want to list him with wording next to his name that he has left Christianity. He has no place on the list. People (living people) who are not Christians should be excluded from the list. That is what the old title clearly implied. And those are the parameters that the List of notable converts to Judaism adheres to. These are its parameters, found at the beginning of that article:

"This page is a list of Jews. This list of Jews should be restricted to individuals identified as Jews by reliable sources, in accordance with Wikipedia's verifiability and no original research policies. Any items not conforming to these policies may be removed immediately."

They are proper parameters because they are elemental parameters. They are restrictive parameters. They are parameters that prevent point of view pushing. The editors at that article have been arguing that the parameters are "all those notable people who ever converted to Christianity." That is just a contrivance. Just as it is just a contrivance to change the name of the article a few days ago. There are 200 other people on that list for whom the name change is irrelevant, because they are all Christians, or were Christian at time of death. The name change is all about Bob Dylan. They will argue it is also about two other names of non Christians. But this list shouldn't be use to "showcase" anyone who ever had an interest in Christianity. It should be a compilation of those Christians who found Christian identity by way of conversion, as opposed to the only other way -- by way of birth.Bus stop 04:31, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If I may, I would like to re-present my evidence from the ArbCom case where it was recommended we take this to other channels:
I was initially made aware of the dispute when a request for help was listed at WP:EAR[105] The issue largely revolves around an editor named Bus stop on the List of notable converts to Christianity article. Bus stop continually reverts editor contributions without discussion because of one individual: Bob Dylan.[106][107][108] As can be seen in the diffs, the user continually makes accusations of anti-semitism. It should be noted that Bus stop has had opportunities to participate in votes to determine consensus, but has opted not to do so.[109] If one checks the diffs, reliable sources abound of Dylan's former Christian status. However, instead of actually discussing, Bus stop repeats pretty much everything he's said in the past and makes little to no effort at communication.[110][111][112] However, a compromise was reached by all other editors where the article would be renamed to make clear that this is a list of people who converted to Christianity and that if their status changed, it would be noted in the footnotes.[113] No one, to my knowledge, has ever tried to portray Dylan as a Christian, but has desired to state that he was a Christian convert and believe the article should reflect that. Likewise, this user has demonstrated behaviour unbecoming of an editor to both mediators[114][115] and an admin[116]. Drumpler 07:34, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It should be noted that Bus Stop has now received his fourth block related to this issue, this time for a three revert violation (actually about seven reverts) on the TALK PAGE, where he has repeatedly removed other editor's comments. How much of this kind of behavior must be tolerated? zadignose 07:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've protected the article several times due to edit disputes. Regardless of the content disputes at the article, in my opinion at least there is some very disruptive editing patterns at the article and talkpage (given the recent silliness over deleted comments) as well as quite a bit of incivility at the talk page (and this has spilled over onto various involved editors' talkpages too). I don't care one way or another about the core content issue here, but the disruptive behavior needs to stop before this page is unprotected for editing.--Isotope23 13:40, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I believe that it might interest the individuals involved here that according to this page, Bus stop has had at best a total of 397 edits to mainspace content that was not directly involved in one of the two controversies over which he has expended over 1000 of his total 3000 edits to date on, those two controversies being over Michael Richards and Bob Dylan. While it is perhaps possible that he could in time become a good and productive editor, it is also possible that involvement in such disputes may be one of this editor's primary interests in wikipedia. He has in fact recently said on his talk page that wikipedia is ulimately based, from beginning to end, on what he calls "idealism", which from the context in which it was used seems to me to be, as he uses the term, a synonym for "opinion" or "point of view". If this is the case, and he was indicating that it is his belief that wikipedia is supposed to be made to conform to an individual point of view, then I believe that there may be sufficient cause to say that his goals in editing wikipedia are perhaps at least potentially in conflict with wikipedia's own goals of providing objective, neutral, verifiable information, and that it may be possible that the conflict in these two goals may not be reconcilable. John Carter 13:56, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Much of this I already posted on the arbcom page)
The List of notable converts to Christianity is at least the second time I have witnessed Bus Stop committing disruptive behavior. The first time was on the Michael Richards page, where he likewise continuously made edits over the objections of other editors. His m.o. back then was always saying "use talk page" as a reason to revert other people's edits, then ignore everyone else's discussion on the talk page even if e.g. it was 5 vs 1 against him--in short, it seems like "use talk page" was just being used as a shield/weapon to revert other users' contributions back to his changes, which often are the very definition of original research. We had content conflicts back then, and he continuously falsely accused me as a sockpuppet (of User:Wahkeenah, feel free to checkuser) including in edit summaries as a reason to revert my edits: [117], and WP:STALKed me to another page I frequently edit to revert my changes (in the process reverting a spam link) again using "use talk page" as a false reason: [118].
I participated on the List of notable converts to Christianity after noticing he got blocked twice for 3RR violations on Bob Dylan. [119]. His disruptive behavior seems to have gotten worse, especially now as User:Cleo123 (another disruptive editor whose m.o. is accusing others of "libel" in a very disrespectful tone) whom he befriended from the Michael Richards days) was often prodding and encouraging him, including advising him to refuse moderation and twice attacking mediators ad hominem. His m.o. now seems to have changed from "use talk page" to "anti-semitic" as his reason for discrediting all other's input whom he disagrees with.
In my opinion, Bus Stop is a disruptive editor who fits all criteria in WP:DE to a tee. I do believe he edits in "good faith"--in the sense that he probably doesn't consider himself disruptive and thinks he is making positive contributions to articles--however over the past 6 months his behavior has not changed: he continues to be unable to listen to and work with others, he continues to ignore sources (unless they support his opinions) and insist on committing original research, he does not care about how WP works and treats all articles as a blog for him to voice his own opinions (alarmingly even rhetoric-ed rules should be ignored and it's opinions that matters [120], and when others disagree with his opinions then basically he'll stay there to disrupt--for months if necessary, come hell or high water. I had been thinking that with time, his conduct would become more civil and less original research/soapboxing as there had been occasions where he made positivie contributions on other pages; however consider the rarity of those occasions and the sheer disruption he caused on the Michael Richards and especially List of notable converts to Christianity: we're talking months and hours/day at least half a dozen editors having to address his edits and personal attacks [121] [122], till eventually even more editors and mediators had to be pulled in...I have to say I think this user may just be irredeemable--he will never believe in WP policies, he'll never believe that WP is for replicating what verifiable sources say and not for him to treat as his blog of his views on the world, and he's better off not editing wikipedia. He just needs his own blog.
In summary, he has (and remember these are just a few sample, I can literally spend hours pulling up examples of his violations)
  • violated WP:NPA and WP:DE by disrupting the Michael Richards page for ~2 months, often using "use talk page" [123] or falsely accusing other of being sockpuppets [124] as false reason for revert
  • violated WP:STALK by stalking me to revert my edits (a removal of a spam link) again using "use talk page" [125]
  • violated WP:3RR and got blocked twice for 3RR violation on Bob Dylan [126]
  • violated WP:DE and blocked twice for edit warring and disruption on [List of Converts to Christianity]
  • violated WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA by personally attacking other users [127] [128]
  • violated WP:NOR stated he believe WP should be about opinions (specifically, his own opinions) and rules should not be followed [129]
  • openly stated he does not believe in WP:AGF [130] because everyone against him must be a dedicated small group of Christians intending to knock down Judaism (it's alarming User:Sefringle choose to employ the same tactic...last time I checked I for instance am an atheist, not that it should even matter)
  • refused a proposal for mediation (see his Talk page)
  • when the Mediation Cabal finally had to be invited, and two different mediators decided his obsession with one point had no merit (each time after another week of discussion to build a rough consensus), he personally attacked the mediators [131] [132] and accused them of bias and then ignored the rough consensus to continue disruption
This is not a content dispute, but a systematic pattern of WP policy violations by a single disruptive editor over a span of ~8 months. Yes on occasion he can contribute positively; but personally I find Bus Stop's sheer volume of disruption, personal attacks, complete flaunting of WP rules (primarily WP:NOR and WP:V as this user uses wikipedia like a WP:SOAPBOX to post long rants of his opinions without sources) outrageous. This user should be banned from editing all Judaism-related topics if not wikipedia altogether, as he has indicated no willingness to adapt to wiki rules or build consensus with others unless other's views agree with his own. Tendancer 16:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's a pretty good summary. zadignose 00:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Pretty long, if I don't say so myself. If someone could provide a short summary of that comment, it would be helpful.--SefringleTalk 01:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Short summary: Bus Stop is highly disruptive, and has violated virtually every policy and guideline on Wiki. zadignose 02:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The accusations check out: per WP:DE I've blocked Bus stop indefintely for persistent disruption and multiple long-term policy violations. DurovaCharge! 04:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And for the record, I've offered to unblock if Bus stop pledges to enter WP:ADOPT and avoid the article for three months. DurovaCharge! 19:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]