Talk:Andrew Jackson

Oh, that Theodore

I saw Theodore mentioned in this main Jackson article and then, of course, mentioned over at List of children of the presidents of the United States and I got curious so I went looking for him...and, I couldn't find him. He isn't mentioned as an adopted son or a family-member by the folks at The Hermitage, he isn't mentioned as an adopted son or family-member by the Library of Congress, he doesn't appears as any kind of an adoptee in any official or scholarly sources that I could find, except, supposedly in Brands' Jackson biography and, well, there are a whole lot of problems with that....
I do want to mention that although Jackson does not have an "Official Presidential Library" as modern US Presidents do, The Hermitage is operated as a 501c nonprofit and the Foundation has been in existence since 1889. Their scholarship seems impeccable. For what they had to say about family life at The Hermitage see their webpage on "Children".

The Jackson article's sentence stating "Jackson had three adopted sons: Theodore, an Indian about whom little is known" along with the reference citing Page 198 of Brands' book was added in 2012 by a now-moribund account. I went to Brands' actual Page 198 and this is what Brands quotes as being Jackson's letter:

• "I send on a little boy for Andrew. All his family is destroyed. He is about the age of Theodore."

but Brands then goes on to comment:

• The young boy named Theodore had come to live at the Hermitage earlier, under circumstances lost to history. ... In Jackson's case, he pitied the Creek child—named Lyncoya—but he also wanted to provide Rachel another child and Andrew (and Theodore) a brother.

Frustrating Bonus! in all of this: Brands doesn't provide any sourced footnotes for this letter that he is quoting so I had to go looking for a published source and my quibble with Brands is that what he quotes isn't exactly what Jackson wrote.
In this particular letter Jackson is referring to the well-known Lyncoya Jackson, Brands mentions Theodore in passing but he does not state that Theodore is himself adopted. The actual November 4th, 1813 letter from Jackson to his wife Rachel states - as published on Page 444 of The Papers of Andrew Jackson, V. II, 1804-1813. Ed. Harold D. Moser and Sharon Macpherson. Knoxville: University of Tennessee Press, 1984. - the letter states:

• I send on a little Indian boy[4] for Andrew to Huntsville-with a request to Colo. Pope to take care of him untill he is sent on-all his family is destroyed-he is about the age of Theodore [5]

with the editors commenting in [4] and [5] that

• 4. Lyncoya (c1813-28), a Creek infant orphaned at the Battle of Tallushatchee, reached the Hermitage in May 1814. He remained in the Jackson household until his death.
• 5. Theodore (cl813-14) was probably another Indian child at the Hermitage. Jackson and Rachel mentioned his death in their letters of March 4 and 21, 1814 (DLC).
  

So the editors of the authoritative/published Papers of Andrew Jackson do not refer to Theodore as anything but a Native American living at The Hermitage. The WP-editor who added that "3rd adopted son" information was mistaken in their assumption. I intend to adjust that particular sentence and maybe add information & references etc about the Jacksons' living situation at The Hermitage, especially regarding the various Native American boys like Theodore and Charley who lived there for at least a time as companions for the Jackson-related boys (including Andrew Jackson Jr, Andrew Jackson Donelson, and Andrew Jackson Hutchings). I wanted to post here on the talk page about my impending edits to Theodore's "adopted son" status since this article is a Featured Article and for page watchers to know that this change is not some kind of an inconsidered vandal-edit but rather a correction to a long-standing error in the article. Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 20:24, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and edited that section, correcting the information about Theodore and adding references etc. Also corrected the infobox. We can discuss the changes here. Shearonink (talk) 14:46, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Shearonink, I brought this article to FA status and am sort of its self-appointed guardian/custodian. I'm kind of pressed for time now and can't really do in-depth research at the moment, but I know you to be an experienced editor and the changes which you have made definitely seem good. Thank you for your improvements. I will contact you if I have any questions or suggestions. Display name 99 (talk) 14:15, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Why is it more "neutral" to discuss Jackson's ideals rather than his policy?

Antiok 1pie recently made an edit with the "npov" justification, but this edit seems to just create more bias. They're taking away statements about the broad and observable effects of Andrew Jackson's policies, and replacing them with propaganda about how he defended human rights and empowered the "common man".

First of all, the sources you provided don't support your statements. The 1st source, simply describes the Indian Removal Act in detail; it doesn't say Jackson played a major role in the ethnic cleansing of the United States and the 2nd source is not reliable. It's an 1835 letter from Jackson to Amos Kendall (see WP:PST). The text is also WP:UNDUE; he is not notable for protecting slavery or for his "major role in the ethnic cleansing of the United States" Secondly, his role in ethnic cleansing is mentioned in the 3rd paragraph and his thoughts on slavery are mentioned in the body of the article. Lastly, I don't see how the sentence Jackson sought to advance the rights of the "common man" against a "corrupt aristocracy" and to preserve the Union is biased or "propaganda" as you've claimed. As a matter of fact, a historical term symbolizing the years of Jackson's presidency is "Age of the Common Man" [1]. It's a simple and adequate sentence for the introduction and it's also supported by reliable sources. There's nothing wrong with it. I would advise you to gain some sort of consensus before re-adding your edit in the article. Antiok 1pie (talk) 21:26, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Antiok 1pie. As the author of the text in question, I would like to add to what was already said that the sentence about preserving the Union was added primarily with the Nullification Crisis in mind, not the issue of slavery. Adding that he sought to preserve the Union by protecting slavery completing obliterates the Nullification Crisis, which was a much more momentous issue in Jackson's presidency than the question of slavery. Display name 99 (talk) 03:31, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I've found more precise sources and integrated it better with the existing "common man" text. It seems extremely misleading to keep the "common man" text without mentioning his genocide of many of the common men he ruled over. I also added a citation that does a better job connecting the Nullification Crisis to the issue of slavery. FinnV3 (talk) 15:49, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Again, this is unacceptable. It's not necessary to specify that Jackson's reputation was among white men. Indians and blacks generally did not have public political positions. We are implicitly already speaking only about American citizens here, which Indians and blacks generally were not. It is also not necessary to say that his Manifest destiny ideology was limited to whites; anyone who clicks on the article can see that the idea of Manifest destiny was never understood to apply in any broad sense to blacks or Indians. Describing Indian removal as "ethnic cleansing" is loaded language not widely found in major sources of Jackson. Its inclusion arguably compromises NPOV. Saying that his work to preserve the Union took place through preserving the Southern slave economy is vague. It's unclear what this means. What did protecting slavery have to do with nullification? The answer is nothing, because an attack on slavery was never seriously considered by tariff advocates, and thus rarely mentioned even by the hard anti-tariff men. We encounter here the same problem as before: the text obscures and pushes aside one of the most crucial episodes of Jackson's presidency in favor of talking about nothing other than slavery.

Additionally, what you have done conflicts with MOS:OPEN. A full lead section has four paragraphs. The first paragraph of a full lead section describes only the most basic details about the subject without getting too far into specifics. The detail that you have added here is too great.

I will also say something to you generally that may be of course as you continue to edit Wikipedia. Wikipedia policy, as you probably know, states that articles are to be written with a neutral point of view. Historians are people just like anyone else. They have biases and beliefs which other historians may challenge. Unless there is overwhelming consensus one way or the other, Wikipedia is required to remain neutral in these debates. To wit, you can't simply say whatever you want and slap a citation at the end of it, because even if the citation supports what you are saying and is to a reliable and trustworthy source, another reliable and trustworthy source may disagree. That is why we must be careful that, when we see one belief that a historian or a group of historians holds, not to insert it into an article as fact. Display name 99 (talk) 18:15, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

• "Wikipedia policy, as you probably know, states that articles are to be written with a neutral point of view." Yes, I know. My main motivation for editing this article in the first place was that the introduction was extremely biased and pro-Jackson. The current version of the article is in gross violation of WP:NPOV.
• "To wit, you can't simply say whatever you want and slap a citation at the end of it, because even if the citation supports what you are saying and is to a reliable and trustworthy source, another reliable and trustworthy source may disagree." Yeah, it seems like this is exactly what you did. The original text described Jackson as a hero of the "common man," which is plainly ridiculous. You can't just slap a citation at the end of it.
• "It's not necessary to specify that Jackson's reputation was among white men. Indians and blacks generally did not have public political positions. We are implicitly already speaking only about American citizens here, which Indians and blacks generally were not." Yes, that's the whole problem here. The article is written completely from a white American perspective. That's the bias I was trying to remove. Why is it preferable or more "neutral" to implicitly focus on white men? Not coincidentally, the white male bias is present in the sources you prefer in part because of Jackson's removal and censure of opposing views, so it really doesn't make sense to reproduce that bias here.
• "A full lead section has four paragraphs. The first paragraph of a full lead section describes only the most basic details about the subject without getting too far into specifics. The detail that you have added here is too great." Right, my original edit was more brief, but it was shot down for being too brief. This most recent edit was an attempt to reach consensus, as I was instructed. I agree that the earlier version was better, with less detail, but User:Antiok 1pie was adamant that the "common man" quote was necessary, so I tried to integrate the two.
• "Saying that his work to preserve the Union took place through preserving the Southern slave economy is vague." What is it? Am I too detailed or too vague? It strikes me as a lot more vague to leave it at "Jackson sought ... to preserve the Union."
• "Describing Indian removal as 'ethnic cleansing' is loaded language not widely found in major sources of Jackson." What sources are you looking at? I added several citations that use that language. What makes your sources more "major"? Describing it as ethnic cleansing is uncontroversial by any definition of the term, and it's a term that modern readers are more likely to be more familiar with, but feel free to change the language if you disagree.
• "We encounter here the same problem as before: the text obscures and pushes aside one of the most crucial episodes of Jackson's presidency in favor of talking about nothing other than slavery." Wikipedia policy is to focus on noteworthy content. What makes your text more "crucial" than mine? Slavery was a big part of the economy at the time, and the connections to the later Civil War are nontrivial.

I have made a good-faith effort to reconcile the versions and reach consensus, but none of the issues I've brought up have been addressed. You've simply reverted my edits. Wikipedia policy discourages edit warring. Please make an effort to reach consensus instead of simply reverting an edit. FinnV3 (talk) 19:44, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Just passing by as yours edits are causing no target errors. Can I suggest reading WP:BRD and reverting you edit? From there the best cause of action is to try and talk put the issues here. If you can't make any headway then you can always post notices to wiki projects and notice boards to get third party opinions. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 19:59, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

This should not be taken as supporting either side in this discussion, in which I'm neutral. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 20:00, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

I am also passing through - I don't have a strong opinion on how the intro should be structured here, but I do want to voice my strong opposition to the aforementioned suggestion that calling the Trail of Tears an ethnic cleansing is loaded language. It was an ethnic cleansing. The Wikipedia article on it already calls it an ethnic cleansing. I think dancing around the term is less neutral than just calling it what it was. I doubt there would be any objection if the subject was not an American president. Connor Long (talk) 05:59, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

FinnV3, please do not lecture me about edit warring when you are yourself reverting a change before discussing it. Here is my response to your statements.

1. There was no bias in the lead paragraph prior to your changes. It simply describes, in general terms, his major achievements and broad policy goals as president. It takes no side either way, and uses quotations around “common man” and “corrupt aristocracy” to draw a distinction between objectivity and the pro-Jackson view.

2. The text does not describe Jackson as a “hero of the common man.” You have distorted the truth here. It says that he “sought to advance the rights of the common man.’” This is true. The sense in which common man was understood was generally white man, and this is acknowledged through the rights of quotation marks. Jackson did fervently support fewer constraints on the liberties of ordinary white American men. Nothing is untrue or biased about this sentence.

3. The opening paragraph of an article, as I have mentioned, generalizes in broad terms what the subject of the article is. Jackson’s expansionist policies are mentioned, and nothing more is warranted here. Mention of slavery is not warranted here because it was not important enough during his term in office. Look further down in the lead. There is more about Indians and blacks there, but it is does not belong in the top paragraph, and certainly not in the language that you have used. Of course, information about how Jackson’s policies affected non-whites should be included, but what you seem to be forgetting is that including information about Jackson’s policies towards non-whites doesn’t mean that we include nothing about his policies towards whites. Regarding this statement: Not coincidentally, the white male bias is present in the sources you prefer in part because of Jackson's removal and censure of opposing views…, it both unhelpful and not very polite to accuse an editor of using biased sources without citing evidence.

4. Your original edit was rejected for two reasons. The first was because, as Antiok 1pie pointed out, your efforts at sourcing it were atrocious. The second was that has the same core inaccuracies and biases as your newer edit. Its brevity was better, but it still had major problems.

5. I guess it’s not so much vague as inaccurate and misleading. Slavery was not under any serious threat during the Nullification Crisis. Of course, it was a crucial part of the economy, but no Northern politicians were seriously making it an issue during the Nullification Crisis. As such, Jackson didn’t need to protect it from anything, and so saying that he sought to preserve the Union through protecting the slavery distorts or triviliazes the nullification issue. There were two major instances in which the Union came under threat (or in which Jackson felt it came under threat) during Jackson’s presidency and in which Jackson sought to preserve it. The first was through nullification, in which Jackson sought to preserve the Union through a mix of threats and compromises aiming both to intimidate and to appease South Carolinians who were ardently against the tariff. The second was in the growth of abolitionism later in his presidency, which Jackson fiercely opposed in part because he felt it inflamed sectional jealousies. Both of these are important, but in the interest of brevity, neither are specifically mentioned in the lead paragraph. Because the top paragraph should be short, I am in favor of neither one being specifically mentioned, but if more detail is to be added, slavery cannot be mentioned without nullification.

6. Slave labor was a major part of the economy, of course, but mostly not a major political issue until well after Jackson’s presidency. The two major parties in Jackson’s presidency-the Democrats and Whigs-transcended sectional divides by having both Northern and Southern elements. The result was that everybody basically agreed not to talk about slavery. The biggest issue regarding slavery in Jackson’s presidency was the abolitionist tracts during his second term. Although this should not be overlooked, it did not provoke the same level of controversy as some of Jackson’s other actions. As such, it should not be mentioned in the first paragraph.

The article was better before these changes were made. I argue that your changes should either be reverted in their entirety or heavily revised. I also removed the POV tags that you added to the top of the article. There is no consensus for adding them. In fact, as the article passed featured article review in a manner close to its current form, consensus would appear to be against them. Adding them in the middle of this dispute was clearly designed simply to inflame tensions and antagonize the opposition. I find it inappropriate. Display name 99 (talk) 13:16, 31 July 2022 (UTC)