{{Reply to|Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel}} Why are you now starting to remove {{Diff||1165475506|1165474332|sections of prose}} from the article? You can't seriously think "gibberish" is an adequate explanation. I've sought [[#Rugby box|a third opinion]] for the rugby box dispute, but I'd still like an explanation for the missing matches. If you continue being silent, I will have to restore them again, and if you revert it again, I'll have no choice but to once again report you to the [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard|administrator's noticeboard]]. — [[User talk:AFC Vixen|AFC Vixen]] 🦊 07:12, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
{{Reply to|Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel}} Why are you now starting to remove {{Diff||1165475506|1165474332|sections of prose}} from the article? You can't seriously think "gibberish" is an adequate explanation. I've sought [[#Rugby box|a third opinion]] for the rugby box dispute, but I'd still like an explanation for the missing matches. If you continue being silent, I will have to restore them again, and if you revert it again, I'll have no choice but to once again report you to the [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard|administrator's noticeboard]]. — [[User talk:AFC Vixen|AFC Vixen]] 🦊 07:12, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
:There is nothing related between the rubbish I got rid of and the tournament. Its relevancy belongs in another article where it already is... [[User:Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel|Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel]] ([[User talk:Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel|talk]]) 13:00, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
== Third opinions ==
== Third opinions ==
Revision as of 13:00, 16 July 2023
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Citation error
@Achmad Rachmani and Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel: Please be more careful when updating citations; you two made quite a mess here. Ideally, there should not be two different sources in a single citation. Also be sure to replace or remove quotes when changing the source, and make note that archive-url is meant for an archive of the source, and id is not for URL links. — AFC Vixen 🦊 17:15, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel: Your recent edit summary suggests you prefer seperate articles for the divisions. This seems excessive for a competition this small in scope and notoriety, especially compared to the World Cup. If you do insist on having these intricately detailed tables of players, officials, substitutions, ect. for every single match, would you be willing to compromise for a single article compiling match details, à la Super League XXVIII results? We could name it 2023 WXV matches, perhaps. — AFC Vixen 🦊 20:49, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No.
This competition is not a league like the Super League or Super Rugby, nor is it a major tournament as the World Cup. You either split the article, leave it whole, or put games in a single collapsible section. Otherwise, it is a mess. Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel (talk) 16:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But... that's what I'm literally asking you. Do you want to have it split? Because this seems like a very efficient way of splitting it; one parent article and one supplimentary article similar to 2023 Super Rugby Pacific season and List of 2023 Super Rugby Pacific matches. The alternative split, one large article and three very small nine-match articles, seems inappropriate here. Otherwise, we can leave it whole, but we're going to have to forgo the excessively detailed tables for readability sake, and you seem very opposed to that. — AFC Vixen 🦊 16:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The actual spilt I'm talking about is the split of competitions. One article per tier of competition, not the whole module then a separate article for the games. The competitions are not small in scope as there are nine games per tier, far more than the Pacific Four's tally of six which seems to be going well without any need to get rid of it. Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel (talk) 18:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
On the contrary, the 2022 Pacific Four Series article looks great without massive roster and personnel lists, and starting 15s graphics. The "Report" hyperlink for each match suffices for further reading, as Wikipedia does not exist in a vacuum. In any case, those exist as articles because they're about singular tournaments; this is also a single tournament, and thus should be kept as a single article. — AFC Vixen 🦊 20:52, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, some inquiries into your recent edits. Why do you insist on a longer, clunkier lead sentence that repeats "WXV" and "2023" twice? If your issue was that "first edition" could be mistaken as a competition title, then we can easily not bold font it; MOS:BOLDAVOID permits this. Why did you re-link country names when I made it clear that MOS:OL does not permit this? (See MOS:GEOLINK also). Why did you remove spacing from section headings that make it easier for editors like me to identify them? What's wrong with {{Rugby box collapsible}}, and why did you remove many parameters that {{Rugby box}} shared in common anyway? Why did you reduce the amount of matches in each division from nine to six? Why did you remove the WXV 3 play-off match? — AFC Vixen 🦊 21:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The facts just don't care about your feelings. The team sheet is there because it is informative. That is how it works for every single international competition... male and female.
It’s less my feelings and moreso the feelings of the people who wrote that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. This is not a sports database, this is an encyclopedia, and your “that’s just how it is” arguments are unsubstantial and threat to ruin another page is childish. Are you at least going to attempt to answer any of the concerns I raised about your edits from today in particular? — AFC Vixen 🦊 22:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is genuinely the most boring experience arguing with you. I am not interested. Anything I say, you seem to have a problem with. In the end, you are not going to be the one there when it actually gets underway. The first sentence of an article addresses the title. That is Wikipedia 101. I do not need you deliberately saying everything is garbage because it isn't. Any general reader who comes across it is not going to be interested in how revolutionised an article by simply changing to your own whim. If you really insist doing you way, go to EVERY article, EVERY Six Nations, EVERY Rugby Championship, EVERY World Cup, EVER Premiership, EVERY Top 14, EVERY URC, EVERY Premier 15s, EVERY Super Rugby, EVERY Pacific Four and EVERY Lions tour and waddle it down to your simplicity. I do not care until you too are lazy to do it so you pick out one Top 14 season and one WXV. Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel (talk) 23:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you’re not interested, then stop this nonsense reverting, reverting, reverting of every single thing that I do and then having a big sook when I question you or attempt to compromise with you. If you have no answer in particular for country wikilinks, the rugby box changes, and the ten matches you removed, I will be restoring those in due time. For the other issues discussed here, I will attempt to seek mediation. — AFC Vixen 🦊 23:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel: I see you've again removed the collapsible rugby box and nine matches, while offering no explanation here, or in your edit summary. Please properly explain why you think a rugby box without a collapsible option is better, and why you think those nine matches need to be removed. — AFC Vixen 🦊 19:04, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel: Why are you now starting to remove sections of prose from the article? You can't seriously think "gibberish" is an adequate explanation. I've sought a third opinion for the rugby box dispute, but I'd still like an explanation for the missing matches. If you continue being silent, I will have to restore them again, and if you revert it again, I'll have no choice but to once again report you to the administrator's noticeboard. — AFC Vixen 🦊 07:12, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For a third opinion: which of these reads better as a lead sentence: the current one (1) or my proposal (2)? While MOS:LEAD does encourage the title be used, an exception is made if it feels unnatural, and "the 2023 WXV is an edition of WXV held in 2023" is both unnatural and borderline MOS:REDUNDANCY in my opinion. The name "2023 WXV" is also seldom used in official sources and reliable third-party sources. MOS:AVOIDBOLD also encourages bold font to not be used in these instances, which is why it is not used in my proposed version.
(1) The 2023 WXV is the first edition of WXV [...] and will take place between 14 October and 4 November 2023.
(2) The first edition of WXV [...] will take place between 14 October and 4 November 2023.
All other things being equal, my preference is for (1). I don't think any of the exceptions in MOS:LEAD really apply here, and, speaking as someone who knows nothing of this topic, I would be disoriented if I encountered (2) because the page title doesn't make it clear that this is the first edition. Also, the first sentence truly concludes with "14 October and 4 November 2023," so it's not exactly redundant—it gives more specific information that "WXV 2023" lacks.
That said, if you feel that "WXV 2023" is a poor title for this page, that's another issue altogether. Maybe it is a poor title, and if so, renaming the page might lead to a better first sentence. If you wanted to convince me that the title should be changed, I would hope you would suggest an alternate title and supply some authoritative sources demonstrating that your suggested title really represents common parlance. Of course, you probably wouldn't need to sway just me, but that sort of evidence would probably sway others too.
Also, if the subject of this page isn't covered at all in RS as a distinct concept, it kinda calls the page itself into question. The sources here all seem to talk about WXV1, WXV2, and WXV3 separately. Maybe each of these tournaments should have its own page instead? I kind of get the impression that the discussion above has something to do with this but I feel like I'm missing a lot of context there.
As a side note, I'd like to gently remind both of you (@Mikey'Da'Man, Archangel) to be kind and respectful towards one another. In my eyes, it's not particularly civil to say to another editor "The facts just don't care about your feelings," to call another editor's behavior "childish," to say "It is genuinely the most boring experience arguing with you," to call another editor "lazy," or to describe them as "having a big sook." Please remember, we all must strive to treat the other person with respect and goodwill even if their behavior is frustrating. I know it's hard, but it's what keeps the world spinning—we could never have formed a culture without that beautiful human capacity. 🍉◜◞🄜e𝚜𝚘𝚌𝚊r🅟🜜🥑《 𔑪talk〗⇤23:17, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your opinion. All I’ll say is that it’s just nice to be able to get an opinion from somebody who doesn’t clearly outright disrespect other editors and participates in blanket reverts and stonewalling. I apologise for my use of language in particular, I’ll continue to try my best to be as respectful as possible when criticising other users’ poor behaviour. — AFC Vixen 🦊 01:07, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sure thing. ^^ Also, you don't need to apologize to me, I wasn't involved :P I just wanted to say something as a bystander. It's certainly good to be respectful if you must criticize, but in most cases I would say it's not even necessary to criticize at all—we're here to work on the articles, so most of the time I find it works to just ignore anything unkind or personal and stay laser-focused on the article content in disputes. Also, it really helps to center debates on questions that RS or at least some kind of hard evidence can answer whenever possible, because those kinds of debates can be easily and often genially resolved. Matters of pure opinion are dangerous, and debates based purely around policy are honestly not much better. 🍉◜◞🄜e𝚜𝚘𝚌𝚊r🅟🜜🥑《 𔑪talk〗⇤11:42, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Rugby box
For a third opinion: This article will eventually list between 27–31 rugby matches. Should {{Rugby box collapsible}} or {{Rugby box}} be used to list them? While {{Rugby box collapsible}} can be expanded for more information, which can also be set as default, {{Rugby box}} doesn't have a collapsible option, and doesn't have a column on the left to display notes such as "Test: 1612".
Hi. Friendly reminder that the "Test number" info was deemed irrelevant during the delete discussion of templates Wrugbybox and Wrcode. That being said, I personally prefer the use of collapsible. PotatoNerd (talk) 09:20, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
