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An entry from subtlety appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 2 October, 2006.

Wikipedia

Listed the article as needing expansion

I listed the article as needing expansion in an attempt to find more sources. So far, I've only found references in Michael Crichton's Timeline, some medieval enthusiast pages on the internet and the brief passage about it in the source cited in the article.

Peter ^Isotalo 12:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Added links

Ok, thanks for all the links. All of them clearly don't fit in the article right now, but I'll put them here so they can be sorted through and perhaps used to expand the prose of the article.

Peter ^Isotalo 06:49, 28 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Everything Imaginable Made of Sugar Translation of the third course of The first banquet for Emperors for the early meal on a meat day, and re-creation of a selection of said third course from Ein New Kochbuch by Marxen Rumpolt http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_ASQPsugar98.htm From Functional Feast to Frivolous Funhouse: Two Ideals of Play in the Burgundian Court Paper given at the 5th Annual Indiana University Symposium on Medieval Studies http://www.byu.edu/~hurlbut/perform/hurlbut.html Illusion Dishes Article by Cindy Renfrow http://members.aol.com/renfrowcm/illusion.html Ivan Day's website Decorated food history and courses http://www.historicfood.com/portal.htm Subleties from "Le Viandier de Taillevent" translation from the original manuscript http://www.telusplanet.net/public/prescotj/data/viandier/viandier465.html

Trimalchio's Banquet A Roman feast, containing many illusion foods, described in a contemporary satire http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/petro/satyr/sat06.htm

Feast of Illusions in 2 Courses http://www.florilegium.org/files/FEASTS/ill-fd-feast-art.html

An illusion feast http://www.florilegium.org/files/FEASTS/Valentines-Fst-art.html

A Great Pie http://members.aol.com/renfrowcm/gretepye.html

A Recipe for Fake Fish 16th C Danish apple pastry disguised as a fish http://www.coquinaria.nl/english/recipes/03.2histrecept.htm

A conceit of walnuts http://home.comcast.net/~morwenna/Receipts/walnuts.html

Chastlete (Pastry Castle) http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-SWEETS/Chastlete-art.html

Coqz Heaumez Gode Cookery reconstruction of a 14th c subtlety http://www.godecookery.com/helmeted/helmeted.htm

Gode Cookery Illusion Foods Recipes for subtleties (including translations) http://www.godecookery.com/illusion/illusion.html

Illusion Food Messages from Various E-Lists http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD/illusion-fds-msg.html

Incredible Foods, Sotelties and Entremets Gode Cookery spectacle foods http://www.godecookery.com/incrd/incrd.htm

Marzipan Messages From Various E-Lists http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-SWEETS/marzipan-msg.html

Peacocks and Pasties http://www.coquinaria.nl/english/peacock/index.htm

Pommes Dorres http://home.earthlink.net/~smcclune/stewpot/recipe_pommesd1.html

Sotleties Messages from Various E-Lists http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-SWEETS/sotelties-msg.html

The Cockentrice - A Ryal Mete http://www.godecookery.com/cocken/cocken.htm

Warners http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD/Warners-art.html

Consuming Wealth and Eating Words: Sugar Paste http://www.kal69.dial.pipex.com/shop/pages/285chap9.htm

Sugar Paste Discussion From E-lists http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-SWEETS/sugar-paste-msg.html

Sugar Paste a Cook's Playdough http://home.comcast.net/~iasmin/mkcc/MKCCfiles/cooksplaydough.html

St. George on horseback and slaying the dragon

OED, subtlety, sense 5:

Cookery. A highly ornamental device, wholly or chiefly made of sugar, sometimes eaten, sometimes used as a table decoration. Obs. exc. Hist.

?c1390 Form of Cury in Warner Antiq. Culin. (1791) 4 It techith for to make curious potages and meetes, and sotiltees. c1440 in Househ. Ord. (1790) 450 A soteltee Seint~jorge on horsebak, and sleynge the dragun. 1467-8 Durham Acc. Rolls (Surtees) 92 Pro le Tynfole empt. pro ornacione et pictura del soteltez erga festum Natal. Domini. 1517 R. TORKINGTON Pilgr. (1884) 7 They mad vs goodly Chere wt Diverse Sotylties as Comfytes and Marche Panys. 1552 LATIMER Serm. Par. King (Parker Soc.) II. 139 At the end of the dinner they have certain subtleties, custards, sweet and delicate things. [1768 H. WALPOLE Let. to Cole 6 June, I am no culinary antiquary: the Bishop of Carlisle, who is, I have often heard talk of a sotelte [printed sotelle], as an ancient dish. 1852 C. M. YONGE Cameos II. xxxi. (1877) 327 The feast was entirely of fish: but they were of many kinds, and were adorned in the quaintest fashions, with sotilties, or subtleties. 1875 J. C. JEAFFRESON Bk. Table I. 133 A subtelty, representing a pelican on a nest with her birds.]

Bishonen | talk 12:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Dominicans/Monks

Just to avoid a misunderstanding: Dominicans are not monks. Technically, they are friars. 70.161.209.90 12:40, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Or in this case, deep friared. (Sorry, I'll go away now.)--Raulpascal 13:34, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nice and subtle

Does the modern word "subtlety", referring to something made not obvious, derive from the name of the dish, or vice versa? -- Milo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.171.2.42 (talk • contribs) 21:05, 2 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect the general concept of "subtletey" probably existed long before medieval chefs started baking pies decorated with gold leaf and pastry battlements.

Peter ^Isotalo 14:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure the concept did, but was it already called by the word "subtlety" back then? -- Milo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.171.2.42 (talk • contribs) 00:38, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The earliest usage is 1390 (see excerpt from OED above), but back then it was "soteltie" and some of the sources use the older spelling. What the English term was before 1390, I don't know.

Peter ^Isotalo 22:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

New Oxford American Dictionary: Origin Middle English: from Old French soutilte, from Latin subtilitas, from subtilis ‘fine, delicate’. — Athaenara ✉ 10:35, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Entremet as main entry (for now)

The point of clearing out most of the content of this article is because the term "subtlety" was far more specific than entremet. Though I'm still not entirely sure what it meant in the late medieval context, it appears that it did not include theatricals (I think they're called "pageants") and basically covered only table ornamentations of various kinds. To what extent they were actually edible, I'm also not sure. Anyway, there's no point in fleshing out both articles with identical content, and especially not when the content here was summarized in the other article some time ago.

Peter ^Isotalo 10:13, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly disagree with this. It's appropriate for the two articles to reference each other, but neither (see Subtlety before you reverted it again to a stub) is a substitute for the other. — Athaenara ✉ 10:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A subtlety is as far as I know just a Middle English term for a specific type of entremet and the two terms are often used interchangeably by medieval food scholars, though some actually point out differences in usage. I chose entremet as the proper main article because it was more widely applicable to the concept of "medieval and early modern dinner entertainment provided between courses". After all, articles are for the most part supposed to be about concepts, not terms. The article at the Ricardian society website that you added as a source doesn't seem to be all that reliable, btw. It confuses "entrements" [sic] with what appears to be aperitifs, makes a weak (but still unforgivable) attempt at regurgitating the old myth about using spices to conceal spoiled food, and even confuses L'Mangier De Paris [sic again] with Le Viandier (de Taillevent).

Peter ^Isotalo 11:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The reference you mentioned (which was so far the only citation with proper format in the article) was for a single item: a spun sugar hunting scene. The Wikipedia Ownership of articles policy says:

"If you create or edit an article, know that others will edit it, and allow them to do so."

You seem to be discouraging participation by other editors. — Athaenara ✉ 21:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Try stating your case about the differences between entremets and subtleties instead of quoting policy.

Peter ^Isotalo 11:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Like the Sphinx guardians of Greek mythology, Wikipedia "owners" pose a riddle to all who dare edit their article." (Wikipedia:Ownership of articles#Ownership examples) — Athaenara ✉ 11:54, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You haven't actually explained why you're insisting on the old version. What's the point after everything I explained about the two terms?

Peter ^Isotalo 00:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus first

Lets start by getting consensus for the merge, then making a major change. ^(H) 12:43, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is more productive approach. Here are the two versions in question:

Two months ago (Peter Isotalo) Edit summary: "degraded to a sub-category of entremet"
Two weeks ago (Athaenara) Edit summary: "Restored version prior to mid-March 2007 reduction to a stub. Some copyedits & wikifying."

I have restored Subtlety to aid comparison with Entremet. — Athaenara ✉ 21:16, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're supposed to make an attempt to argue your case before you start bonking people over the head with policy citations.

Peter ^Isotalo 00:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Isotalo reverted with "motivate your edit before demanding that it be respected" as the edit summary.

There are reasonable grounds, which I stated, for restoring Subtlety to its pre-stub state: to aid comparison for discussion here with other editors. I made no demand. — Athaenara ✉ 01:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 162: / Line 162: @@
 ::You're supposed to make an attempt to argue your case ''before'' you start bonking people over the head with policy citations.
 ::[[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 00:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
+Isotalo [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Subtlety&diff=134446038&oldid=134406587 reverted] with ''"motivate your edit before demanding that it be respected"'' as the edit summary.
+There are reasonable grounds, which I stated, for restoring [[Subtlety]] to its pre-stub state: to aid comparison for discussion here with other editors.  I made no demand.  — [[User:Athaenara|Athaenara]] [[User talk:Athaenara|✉]] 01:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)