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Archive 1

My edits

I've been bold and adjusted a few things.

We should allow the use of Macedonia in second references to the Republic, when no sane reader could interpret it as meaning any other Macedonia. We should not impose clutter on ourselves.
WP:NCGN says that when Wikipedia has established a name for something, we should use it in other articles. I really don't care for having modern Greece be an island in its own reality; when we represent the views of the Greek government, or Greeks who agree with it, we should use their term. But Wikipedia's voice shouldn't change between Greece and Vardar River.
- I recognize that in fact it probably will; but we shouldn't give a guideline that supports PoV pushing.
My only authority for the offensiveness in both directions is Macedonia (terminology); but considering what it's been through, it's probably right. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:07, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the first point about second references. To be absolutely honest, the reason I made Greece "an island in its own reality" was purely pragmatic. Articles about modern Greece are most likely to be edited by Greek nationalists and enforcing the use of "Republic of Macedonia" across all such articles is likely to ignite a prolonged edit war with Greek editors. Using "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" would be a reasonable compromise, as it's a legitimate name (not purely a POV one), it's what Greeks themselves use officially, and its meaning is clear enough. We should, however, oppose the use of POV metonyms like "Republic of Skopje" and we should also not permit the usage of the unexpanded acronym "FYROM" as a POV means of avoiding the use of the term "Macedonia".

BTW, note that I specifically confined this to modern Greece (a distinction which needs to be made in the guideline). The naming dispute is completely irrelevant to articles which touch on ancient Greece. In such instances, we should use the default term, i.e. "Republic of Macedonia", just as we would in any other article not covered by the exceptions listed in the proposed guidelines. -- ChrisO 09:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Re Greece, the Gdansk/Danzig precedent also comes to mind. Re ancient Greece, I'm not sure where we could find an applicable example. Niko Silver 14:53, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, the FYROM spelout is neither the Greek POV. It is supposed to be a compromise. Regardless, I admit that it has become almost obsolete in the USA (to the point of being misinterpreted as the Greek POV), but we should not disregard the other English speaking countries. UK, Canada and Australia all use "FYROM" officially. I cannot say what goes on unofficially, though... Niko Silver 14:53, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The BBC uses Macedonia routinely. The only stories using FYROM since 2001 are a handful, specifically discussing the naming issue. Someone else can search the Sydney Morning Herald. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:55, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See for yourself: [1] Niko Silver 20:01, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As opposed to one hit (from their blog) for FYROM. Thanks. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:58, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually they are following the same convention that is proposed here.[2] Niko Silver 23:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes; reports for the Athens Olympics reflect the usage (and POV) of the organizers. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:32, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Please Sept, try to see this the way it is, and not as if we're after hot-headed nationalists at the expense of portraying reality correctly. BBC uses the fyrom spellout very frequently (even on the recent article on Beckam for his car). Actually it uses it on every article on top, and then it goes on to say simply "Macedonia" (for brevity and because it has established non-ambiguity). Check my search below. Niko Silver 19:43, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In all of these pages I have checked, the BBC uses Macedonia first and f/Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia later; furthermore they are only a quarter of the pages on which the BBC uses Macedonia. Please be more careful. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ooops! Niko Silver 09:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nice Gotcha; but I meant, and shoud have said, "article". Discussed further below. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Basic question

The basic question here is what to do about issues where nationalist editors can be expected to be obnoxious. My approach is to fight where it seems likely to be productive, and concede as little as possible; see Talk:Shatt al-Arab (Arvand Rud), for example. Writing a guideline which authorizes misbehavior, instead of one that can be quoted by editors who want to fix it, strikes me as counterproductive. (repost; this seems to have been mislaid, but I would like comments.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:17, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't get it. Are you proposing we rename the country article to Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)? Niko Silver 23:39, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly not; I am proposing that we say that we should use "republic of Macedonia" everywhere - except when quoting someone who isn't, of course. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:56, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Which part exactly would you argue that "authorizes misbehavior"? Do the int'l org article series fall in that category in your opinion? Niko Silver 12:22, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is still the "in articles about Modern Greece"; if no-one disagrees with the tweak I gave that, fine. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I respectfully disagree for sentimental reasons, for practical reasons, due to precedent, and because the use at least in Greek-related articles is not POV.

Sentimental because you can't slap something to a country when she fiercely denies it (like you don't do it on the other one). NikoSilver 19:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Examples, please? What do you mean? I have never slapped anything on the Province. Septentrionalis PMAnderson
  - But your wording suggests that the province will border with a Republic of Macedonia in its article. Niko Silver 10:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Practical, because we both know it doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell. A law that cannot be enforced is a useless law. NikoSilver 19:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- A law which legalizes harmful behavior is worse than useless. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Harmful in what sense? As opposed to sharing 100% a POV which is disputed by half of the world which is not harmful at all in your opinion? Niko Silver 10:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I repeat the [notorious] Gdansk/Danzig precedent, which IMO should be our guide in this. NikoSilver 19:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The Danzig precedent is the usage summarized in WP:NCGN. Use Danzig for eras when the city is called that, use Gdansk for the modern city. This does not justify the use of FYROM, except in paraphrasing those whose view it represents.
  - Maybe we agree after all? Please elaborate. Niko Silver 10:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I don't see why fyrom is POV when it is accepted by both sides and only Greece keeps its part of the deal. I also don't see why it is less frequent (hence non-WP:UE) when BBC (that you quote above), uses the "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" at least once in every article, and then goes on with "Macedonia" for brevity. A full search will be enlightening: check the dates please. Niko Silver 19:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

- FYROM is not its spell-out, and the Beeb uses the spell-out only sometimes. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:04, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - No, by "fyrom spellout" I meant "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", but I refrained from typing the whole thing for brevity. I corrected it above. The Beeb calls the country "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" in its country information page. That is very significant. NikoSilver 10:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - And their stated reason for doing so is that "It is still referred to formally as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM)". Formal usage may govern the BBC's country information page; but we are discussing informal usage, which governs our articles. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So, Sept, first we disagree on the criteria for judgment, second we disagree in the assessment for that criteria, and finally we disagree on the implementation in this convention. I will remove the "Gr gov views" part (which is POV btw, because Greece is far from alone in this) and replace it with "Greek related". Niko Silver 19:33, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I will see what other language I can think of; but I will strongly oppose this proposal if it contains the "Greek related" language. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:09, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Responses below. Niko Silver 10:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I now see that there may be a misunderstanding due to the wording, while we are actually saying the same thing. I took your quote "in representing the views of the Greek government" literally, and thought that you mean to say that we will use the "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" only in articles regarding Greek foreign relations etc. From your wording in the first bullet, I see that you are not actually endorsing using plain M or RoM in e.g. the Greek province article (or Greece by extension?). If that is the case, please tell me where you draw the line of use of RoM vs fYRoM (not acronyms) and then we see how we tweak the wording to reflect that. Niko Silver 10:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would draw the distinction between mentions in Wikipedia's voice, which should follow general usage, and mentions which represent someone else's voice and PoV. For example, the Province does border the Republic; this is a statement of fact, not an assertion of territorial claims in either direction. I see no harm, and some use, in adding the equally true assertion that the Province calls the Republic FYROM. In the infobox (infoboxes tend to be more formal than the rest of WP) it may be reasonable to include "former Yugoslav", although citizens of the Republic may object. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:49, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are no bordering entities in infoboxes, but please elaborate. In which article and under which context what and where exactly? What about -say- Pella Prefecture? What would you do there? Would you add something like:

"the prefecture is in Macedonia and borders Macedonia to the north"
"the prefecture is in Macedonia and borders the Republic of Macedonia to the north"
"the prefecture is in Macedonia and borders the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to the north"
"the prefecture is in Macedonia and borders what the Greek government calls the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to the north"
"the prefecture is in Macedonia and borders what the United Nations, the EU, the Greek government, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Australia, Canada, the UK, FIFA, FIBA, BBC... calls the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia to the north"

Which would be the one you would use there? Niko Silver 20:40, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Probably move it out into a separate sentence, since it is a national boundary: "On the north, it is bounded by the national border between Greece and the Republic of Macedonia"; which is unambiguous. I note that the province is not now mentioned in text. It should say, equally unambiguously, "in the Greek periphery of Central Macedonia." I am in no hurry to perform these edits; if they become the thing most worth doing on WP, the Peaceable Kingdom will have come. But we should provide guidance here, if anyone inquires, that they ought to be done. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So you would say for example:

"The prefecture is in the Greek periphery of Central Macedonia. On the north, it is bounded by the national border between Greece and the Republic of Macedonia"

First you use a sub-periphery (peripheria), and you exclude the province (diamerisma) so as to disambiguate the Greek Macedonia (which is a region, with a ministry, a capital etc). Second, even if you do that, you are confusing everybody in the following sentence. How far can this go? What more is there to be done to accommodate a name that doesn't belong in that context and that is ambiguous? Niko Silver 22:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, I would use different paragraphs; the boundary and the nest higher administrative division are different subjects. As for periphery, I am only following our articles, which say the Regions of Greece are out-of-date since 1987; if that's wrong, go correct that article. Far more important than this guideline anyway. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pella (Greek: Πέλλα) is one of the prefectures of Greece. Its capital town is Edessa. The prefecture was named after the ancient city Pella. The prefecture is in the ~~Greek periphery~~ periphery (an administrative area), Central Macedonia, in the region of Macedonia.
...
Pella is bounded by the prefectures of Kilkis to the northeast, Thessaloniki to the east, Imathia to the south, Kozani to the southwest, by Lake Vegoritida to the southwest, and by Florina Prefecture to the west. On the north, it is bounded by the national border between Greece and the Republic of Macedonia."

The present text implies, I see, that Brod and Gevgelija are Greek districts, which would seem to be in factual error. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I might put Greek region as the link text; not for disambiguation, but to suggest a technical meaning on which readers should link. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

May I ask what is he rationale behind using a modifier for the Greek Macedonia/n/s in their own turf and not using one (which is quite frequent and official within their borders anyway) for their otherwise irrelevant neighbors? Can you imagine another longer article full of "Greek Macedonia/n/s" so that we make one reference to the country by a disputed name? Niko Silver 22:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Republic of" is a modifier. I used "Greek periphery" because most English speakers know "periphery" as the length around a circle; I don't insist on it. I would not use "Greek Macedonians" unless the Macedonia intended was unclear. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:18, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is (technically) a modifier, but in the context of prefectures, it almost sounds as a subnational entity within Greece. It is also not a modifier practically (in the real world -but that is irrelevant). Although I admire your effort in this attempt, I still think it is confusing (and fucking cruel -but I'll drown that fact in Cardhu). Also, tell me, is it worth the effort? Both in compiling the text and in keeping the version on air? Niko Silver 00:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cruel? How? But you'll probably have other cruelty to deal with in the morning. Next time, try Tobermory. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think I'll have to switch to ouzo to emphasize my Greekness (in case anybody missed it :-)). Niko Silver 09:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously, I have added text deprecating both Greek Macedonia and Slavic Macedonia, except when unavoidable. Let me know. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, and it also reflects indeed the case in English scholarship, except of course when serious disambiguation considerations exist. I've got a compromise proposal. But before that, I would like you to elaborate on your comment for Gdansk/Danzig above. Apart from the time periods, the link I gave you also clearly states: "In biographies of clearly German persons, the name should be used in the form Danzig (Gdańsk) and later Danzig exclusively ... In biographies of clearly Polish persons, the name should be used in the form Gdańsk (Danzig) and later Gdańsk exclusively." This looks like a direct parallel -i.e. each call it as they themselves do. I also made some valid points in response to your comment on my talkpage. Niko Silver 09:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I had not seen the part of the Gdanzig compromise about clearly German people. I don't think that made into the naming conventions; and I'm sure it shouldn't - i.e.: that's good for the Gdanzig disaster only. How about having Greeks use Macedonia for the province and Republic of M. for the Republic, and the converse for Slavs, unless some special reason can be shown? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:49, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there's always a reason with you! On Gdansk/Danzig it was only dates. Then it is not a naming convention (which didn't exist then LOL). Niko Silver 21:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also you don't answer to my other point from my talkpage: The same way EU or the UN cannot be quoted to include a Rep.of.M. in their member states (IMO), the same must be extended within that little island of its own reality called Greece. Niko Silver 21:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, your last version is tempting (and promising about "those that agree with Greece"), but it is not an actual guideline since it relies on what the English references are on the subject. It will only lead to endless debates for all articles within Greek territory (et al) mentioning it, and I find this more counter-productive than actually helpful. I exchange "those that agree with Greece" for Greece/Greek proper, and also accept keeping your comment about saying it the first time and from then on RoM (yes, I know there are only very few instances where it may be mentioned twice and thank you). What do you say? NikoSilver 21:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- All our guidelines on naming depend on WP:UE. Why should this one be different? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Lastly, I am removing all POV tags, and expect none entered again for a proposal. This doesn't need any tags until we agree and it becomes promoted to more than a mere proposal. (I also think combative-editing tactics should not be needed between us, since it is evident from my part -at least- that this case is not closed until we agree, and since I am evidently not planning to enforce it by edit warring). Please remember that "Greece-related" was initially included not by a Greek editor. Niko Silver 21:12, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Forgot: your proposal above is not contested by me, and I wouldn't care if it happened unilaterally for RoM-related articles. However, I find it may lead to more confusion in the articles, and I propose we strike it for both. Niko Silver 21:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just spotted your partial response up there. I am not saying (of course) to denounce WP:UE. I am saying that it is difficult to assess the English usage consensus for either name. (Take a pill if necessary and) try to read my early tendentious subpage. It definitely needs updating and tweaking, but it is a serious search on the usage of the terms. Niko Silver 13:04, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Outstanding issues

This talk page has got rather long and difficult to follow: for the sake of clarity, could people please list below what issues are still outstanding? -- ChrisO 06:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'll attempt to archive what I consider closed. In any case please visit the archive. Niko Silver 10:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A case in point

An issue of exactly the kind that this MoS needs to resolve has cropped up in Template:European Union Labelled Map. Sysin, a user with a long history of Greek ultranationalist POV-pushing, is repeatedly deleting the spelled-out name "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" from the map, leaving only the unexplained acronym FYROM. This MoS already mandates that the FYROM acronym shouldn't be used by itself on images and the general MoS likewise requires acronyms to be spelled out the first time they're used. Unfortunately Sysin, as I know from experience, is not the kind of editor who's easily persuadable. Perhaps Niko could have a word with him? -- ChrisO 06:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've noticed the ANI incident you filed (Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Macedonia-related_disruption). He seems to have a non-ultranationalist related case there (acronyms/abbreviations exist for many countries in that map due to size limitations). I'm sure this can be sorted out without resort to a trail of ad hominem characterizations (to which I emphatically disagree in general) which can be seen in Talk:Macedonia#A_new_approach, in the ANI thread, and now here. Anyway, what exactly do you want me to say? Niko Silver 10:37, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also notice that this is a proposal, and that there are bound to be many disagreements from all sides, especially given how contentious this issue is. Those disagreements should be taken into account and molded into a consensus if we want to succeed. Niko Silver 10:37, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Almost irrelevant: In my experience, very few editors have ever been persuaded and changed their mind from their original position in any dispute I've been involved (and I almost chase these). In my opinion those editors deserve our greatest respect for their self-defiance in doing that. I was thinking of making an essay titled WP:ADMIT the other day (and I probably will). Niko Silver 10:37, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Languages

The issue was discussed partly in /Archive 1#Expand and must be elaborated. I archived anyway. Niko Silver 10:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My edits

This MoS will help towards peace and understanding between the two groups. I have no objection to the republic's internal name being used in the proper context - but it is reasonable to object when certain people inject it inappropriately as a means of making irredentist claims on articles about Greece, or when people try to use the anything-goes rules of wikipedia to white-out the nomenclature chosen by the United Nations, the European Union and other international organizations. Most of my edits are common sense (do not edit original texts, acronyms are sometimes nuavoidable, etc.).

My proposed term for the language prior to 1941 may be a bit more controversial - I am open to any reasonable suggestion that is not anachronistic. Regards, sys < in 12:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let me reply in detail.

where the distinction with the Greek territory of Macedonia must be made clear to the reader who is unfamiliar with the area,
- Either this is another "distinguish as necessary", to which I shall rephrase it; or it is "we must make clear the distinction between the Republic and the Province at all times and places", which is nationalist POV-pushing. Since it will be read as the latter no matter how intended, unacceptable.
- On second thought, no. "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is never required for disambiguation; the Republic is clearly distinct from the Province. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - The problem is that the word Republic has also been used for sub-national entities (Yugoslavia is a handy example!). A casual reader, reading an article about Greek and Greek Macedonia can reasonably misinterpret "Republic of Macedonia" as the name of the Greek region, or as an entity that includes Greek Macedonia. To avoid repeating constructs like "Republic of Macedonia (which is not the region of Greek Macedonia but a separate country)", a reasonable alternative employed by most major supernational institutions is the term "former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". Again, I am only proposing this for articles that focus on subjects where a context switch is needed (and I am not proposing this on articles that simply mention such subjects) sys < in

Where source documents <:ref>e.g. treaties, books, tourist guides, statistical tables<:/ref> use one or the other form of the name, the text of the source document must be left as it is, and references to the document should use the form in the document itself.
- Uncontroversial. But why put it here? Quotations should be exact is a general principle; and I so placed it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Unfortunately, this issue pops up from time to time, one would hope that it would not. For example, the EU document named The Commission Opinion on the application from the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia for membership of the European Union has had its title 'adjusted' a number of times in the European Union entry. I hope you agree that this is an unacceptable alteration of source material. sys < in
    - Diff, please. That's a line and a half; I'd shorten it in text myself; not in a footnote, or in italics, of course. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:34, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      - For example, check footnote 28 at [3]. (the link has since been broken, but it was exactly the same document ("COM (2005) 562 final") as footnote 18 in [4]). In your comment above, you agree that you would not alter a document title like this but some people are not as ethical. Spelling this restriction out in the MoS is needed.sys < in
I have the feeling that Sysin's proposal referred to both quotations and normal text (Wikipedia's voice). - Ev 01:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

and in articles on facets of the above organizations such as European Union regulations and the Euro currency
- Rather sweeping. We can all agree, I trust, that we don't want every article that quotes prices in euros to be treated as an aspect of the EU; on the other hand, the EU clause applies to more than the article European Union. Both these are implicit in the original wording. I think it better to keep our thumbs off both sides of this scale. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:07, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes, and you can clarify it by adding something to that effect. But 'articles about facets' (as opposed to articles mentioning facets) should be included. Eurovision voting results is a good example - the annual edit war on the topic was last week. If the official Eurovision result lists "FYR Macedonia", so should the articles about the results. If you want to clarify that articles that simply mention the Euro or Eurovision should be excluded, go ahead and I will not disagree.sys < in

Macedonian Slavs or Slav Macedonians in articles where there is need for disambiguation (mainly those also addressing the Greek Macedonians and/or Ancient Macedonians).
- Should be, as elsewhere, contexts (i.e., we don't have to repeat Slav Macedonian unless the qualifier is necessary in that sentence.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes. but we should not have sentences like "Macedonians vs Greek Macedonians". Its like saying "Christians vs Catholics". And an article is the proper scope to avoid confusion.sys < in
    - I agree (nor "Macedonians vs Slav Macedonians", by the same reasoning). But the present text says so. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:34, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      - It looks like we agree on the principle, but I believe that the text as it is at present is very vague and with open to interpretation.sys < in

The term citizens of the Republic of Macedonia or citizens of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (as per country conventions, above) should be used for those citizens of the country who are not Slav Macedonians.
- Implies that "citizen of the Republic" should not be used of citizens who are ~~not~~ Slavic. I suspect this can be saved by recasting.
  - I don't see how one could possibly read it this way, but feel free to recast it as you wish.sys < in

The forms used in official source documents should be preserved when quoting or referencing such documents
- True everywhere, and added above; therefore redundant here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Maybe a separate "Sanctity of Source Documents" section is needed? Again, this would not be needed if not for past history.sys < in

The language used by Slavs in the Macedonian region prior to August 1944<:ref>See History_of_the_Macedonian_language</ref> should be described as Bulgarian, Bulgarian Macedonian dialect, or the Macedonian dialect of the Bulgarian language as appropriate. For written texts, the distinction should be made based on whether or not the Bulgarian alphabet was used in the original text.
- Guidelines should not attempt to decide questions of fact. In dealing with changes of usage, Wikipedia follows present English usage in writing about the period in question. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Fine, I do agree this was a half-baked idea on my part, and I already mentioned in my previous comments that it needs a fine tuning. An non-anachronistic term is often needed. Your proposal is essentially OK, although hard to arbitrate. sys < in

for example, a map of the countries of the European Union should display "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", whereas a general map of Europe should display "Republic of Macedonia"
- The same map can be both. This is silly. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Evey map is a map of something. Europe != European Union (its not even a subset, as there are regions in the EU outside Europe). In 99.99% of all cases, one can tell if a map is of the European Union by looking at its content and its label. It would be counter-intuitive to use the 6WN in an article, and the 3WN in an accompanying map, and a constant source of bickering. The purpose of this MoS is to agree on basic principles so that edit wars are not needed. Treating images differently from articles just creates a gaping holes in any agreement, and agreements full of holes are usually unsuccessful.sys < in
    - I fully agree that images and articles should work the same way. What's wrong with doing this by not saying anything different about images? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      - OK, we agree. Then let's please put this down explicitly, because people have a tendency to make up rules out of thin air around here (like the "no acronyms allowed in maps, ever" position someone presented a couple of days ago).sys < in
  - As for the abbreviation/acronym issue, I am still amazed that anyone can make politics out of that (and, quite frankly, I am very suspicious of the intentions of people who do). There is no way the words "Republic of Macedonia" can be made to fit in the Template:World Labelled Map, for example. Not in any legible font that I know of. Even the 6-letter word "Greece" is abbreviated on the map, and rightly so. The MoS, as written right now, would be practically impossible to comply with, and what is not practical is rarely successful. My proposal was totally balanced: The acronym should be used only when the full name cannot fit in the map, and Greek Macedonia should also be abbreviated when needed. What's the political argument against that? sys < in 13:16, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - You insisted on using the abbreviation FYROM. What citizen of the Republic would object to Mac. ? who objects to ROM ? (I see it's a little odd so near Romania, however.) Yet both are shorter, and the first is parallel to Neth. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:34, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      - I think we are in agreement: I proposed that "Republic of Macedonia" should be acronymized as RoM and "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" should be acronymized as FYROM, which is common sense. If you feel that "RoM" looks like "Rom", then perhaps RM would be a reasonable alternative. Someone around here objects to any and all acronyms & abbreviations on any map, period, and that is an unreasonable and impractical rule. The MoS should spell out the proper acronyms/abbreviations to use in maps, for completeness' sake. Regards, sys < in 21:21, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Eurovision FYROM

Over 40 countries voted in the Eurovision song context. Only one, Montenegro, used the term 'Macedonia'. All the others used 'Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'. As for the FY/ROM, it was one of the few countries to refer to its name 'Macedonia' as opposed to its capital, and the only one to do so 3 times. It seemed obvious that the young lady had been coached to do so. Otherwise, well done Fyrom, nice song but Ukraine or Bulgaria should have won. Politis 13:04, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image text

I've made a few changes. I hope the only one to be controversial is the first, removing the footnote from the paragraph on images. I simply feel, that if we're going to use the same convention, we shouldn't try to repeat it shorter. If it can be shortened, shorten it above. I've boldened the meat, to replace any loss of force. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:25, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is that all?

Title says all. Shall we wrap? Niko Silver 14:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good. I made some cosmetic changes, and promoted the "quotes" issue to a subtopic, as I consider it a major one. Let's go!sys < in 19:26, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There have been no changes of note during the past week: I propose that an announcement is made in the relevant topics ("Macedonia", "Macedonia (Greece)", "Republic of Macedonia"," Greece", etc.) for votes (At least that's how I understand the procedure). sys < in 12:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've made two tweaks; rephrasing one former/latter sentence because I had to go into the history to see what Niko meant, and toning down to suggest that, if it's clear that the Republic is intended, we can say "The Albanian-speaking population of western Macedonia", without confusion with the periphery Western Macedonia. If these are acceptable, I'm fine with this. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OKsys < in 19:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How about changing "The acronyms RoM and FYROM" to "The abbreviations RoM, Mac., or FYROM"? I know some people will object to Mac. (and it had better be clearly inside the Republican border), but other people do object to FYROM.

Note: this is a suggestion, not a condition of my approval. Announce at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) and the other places, and I think we can upgrade this next week.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not too important, I guess, but RoM saves the ambiguity and is also [quite vehemently] objected to (by those south of the republican border). I'd equate opposition to plain Mac. to that for RoS; not that for FYROM. In that sense, RoM is the golden section for expressing the northern POV. Niko Silver 21:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've done VP, btw. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:19, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fine; I've tweaked to suggest that these are not the only acceptable abbreviations. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:03, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be possible to suggest one (or perhaps two) abbreviations like FYROM, rather than five? I have no particular preference but suggesting five seems not very helpful. >Radiant< 08:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- It suggests two: FYROM and FYR Macedonia. The others are deprecated, see third bullet in Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Macedonia-related articles)#Naming conventions (country) and its note below (Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Macedonia-related articles)# note-Variations). Would you suggest we make it clearer? NikoSilver 09:21, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes; if that is the intent then I would suggest it could be clearer. The section "A number of other variant names derived from former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia are also in use:" seems to suggest five. >Radiant< 09:54, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    - Will work on it, please confirm. Niko Silver 10:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have no objections to what this page says. However, I believe it would be improved with some reformatting. Specifically, first state what the guideline is. Then explain below that why it is so. >Radiant< 13:00, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Do you mean simply moving the first section (called Political entity naming issues) to the end? It's the rationale, the rest is guidelines. I really think this may make the question harder to understand for editors not involved in the question.
  - I've done a sample edit; what do people think? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:40, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Or do you want a {{nutshell}}? This is hard to summarize, and I fear we disagree on what the important parts are. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I preferred the previous order, but I wouldn't veto about it. I think Radiant meant something else though; maybe he could explain? Niko Silver 19:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The reversed order is more successful than I expected; it at least gets all the general guidelines, like quote exactly, ahead of the specifics. But then I'm biased. I'll ask Radiant what he meant. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think we're talking about different revisions. I'd say the present one is fine. >Radiant< 09:53, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Final call

Proposal that we move this out of 'proposed' this weekend. Any objections? sys < in 10:48, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Just to state that I don't see anything objectionable to the point of not striking "proposed" anymore. All further improvements/possible modifications can be discussed even when it is not "proposed" anymore. Niko Silver 12:13, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent work IMO. Well done team. Andrewa 06:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Skopje

I have been advised that my recent edits were somewhat unwelcome, as they tilted the "balance" struck here in discussions to which I was not a party. In fact, it's only in the past couple of days that I've known of the existence of this MoS, so please excuse my erstwhile absence. I thought I'd be bold and edit it anyway, as I strongly maintain that "Skopje" and "Skopjans" in particular are not confined to a small minority of crackpot nationalists as the current wording suggests. While "FYROM" and "Slavomacedonians" are the terms used by Greek officialdom and in more diplomatic language, the most common forms for the country and its people in everyday Greek usage are "Skopje" and "Skopjans". The text should be amended to reflect this reality, without unnecessary value judgments and loaded terms like "nationalist". ·ΚέκρωΨ· 13:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The pro-Greek 'tilting' was not in the removal of the word 'nationalist', but in the removal of Republic of Skopje and Republic of Vardar from the explicit list of names that should never be used to describe the republic. This list should remain as it is, as it these are names not generally used internationally.

I do however agree that the paragraph that begins "In addition, several alternative names..." should be removed, as it simply repeats two of the names listed a few lines above, and is thus redundant. I prepose the following which adds value and maintains the essence of the paragraph:

Other alternative names (metonyms) such as "Skopje", "Paeonia", "Vardar" and "Pugudú" (ΠΓΔ), in use by Greeks who reject any use of the word "Macedonia" by the Republic, should never be used to designate the Republic.

Any objection to making this change? sys < in 14:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't suggest that "Skopje" and "Skopjans" should be moved from the list of "deprecated" names for the purposes of Wikipedia, but they shouldn't be wrongly attributed to a small nationalist minority either. They are in a class of their own, as they are by far the most common terms in Greek usage. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:25, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies if I misjudged your intentions. In any case, now that the policy is no longer in proposed status, there should be discussion here before any edits that are not cosmetic. Regards, 17:25, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I thought my edits were pretty clear. The substance of the manual's prescriptions regarding "acceptable" names on Wikipedia was not changed one iota. But the reasoning behind the rejection of the other names should be factually correct, for the record. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 18:16, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In the same context of e.g. "Athens does not raise issue" (meaning the Greek govt situated there) etc, I think that we cannot regard Skopje/ans as deliberate nationalistic insults. It is indeed the most frequent term used in Greece, and "nationalistic" qualifiers are not welcome. Most people using it may have no idea it may be a "nationalist" term, so we can't (and needn't) list it under those. I agree with Kekrops, and we can work on the changes to reflect that. Niko Silver 22:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't it a rather obvious nationalist statement to reject not only the name which the country calls itself, but the name which the Greek government uses? -- ChrisO

The Greek government uses the provisional reference as per the international agreements that allowed Skopje to join the UN and other international organisations. It was always meant as a temporary compromise to be used until a mutually acceptable solution could be found. Of course, that doesn't mean Greek officials don't also routinely use "Skopje" and its derivatives, which have become the established short-form terms in Greek, and are likely to persist even if a permanent compromise name is achieved. I don't think that labelling the Greeks "nationalists" is constructive in the slightest; you may disagree with the point of view of the overwhelming majority of the Greek people, but we are here merely to report it, not judge it. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 00:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I agree that we shouldn't be judging it, but we shouldn't blind ourselves to the obvious, either. It strikes me as being rather similar to many Arabs' refusal to use the name "Israel" and insistence on the term "Zionist entity" instead. We can report such a usage, but we can't use it ourselves in the ordinary course of articles. -- ChrisO 08:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your comparison is almost defamatory. Greece never disputed the country's right to exist. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 08:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, just the country's right to call itself what it wants to call itself - which is an important element of the right to self-determination, of course. The bottom line is that the use of a metonym used solely in rejection of another country's self-identification isn't compatible with NPOV. -- ChrisO 08:40, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So you agree then that the "nationalist" label can be removed, given that no one is suggesting the "metonym" be prescribed for Wikipedia articles? By the way, I can't help but note that "Macedonia" is also a metonym; only a very small part of today's FYROM lies within the boundaries of the original Macedonian state. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 09:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

<sigh> See Macedonia (terminology). The point is debateable; whether Paeonia was "part of the original Macedonian state" depended on the relative strengths of the Kings of Macedon and Paeonia. Much of the present Greek periphery wasn't part of Macedon at all before Phillip's time. But it doesn't really matter; the Republic is named for the 19th century territory, which (usually) included all of it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:57, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Western Republic of Macedonia

Under WP:MOSMAC#Naming conventions (province), we are told to use a construct such as "Western Republic of Macedonia" when referring to parts of the republic. But if these are temporary constructs, as opposed to proper names such as West Macedonia (which incidentally is the article location, not "Western Macedonia"), why should they be capitalized? Shouldn't it rather be "western Republic of Macedonia"? Or, as this sounds like it's implying there are several republics of Macedonia, even better: "western part of the Republic of Macedonia"? -- Jao 18:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reading WP:CAPITAL#Directions_and_regions, the wording in MOSMAC sounds about right, if we consider the term "Western former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" analogous to "Southern United States" as an informally defined subregion of a country. At least that's my interpretation (which could be wrong). In any case this MOS should follow the rules set in WP:CAPITAL, perhaps that's the right place to discuss and clarify the matter. Regards, sys < in 20:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That section of WP:CAPITAL only applies to "regions that are proper nouns, including widely known expressions" such as Southern California or Southern United States, though. Is "Western Republic of Macedonia" such a widely known expression? -- Jao 21:14, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Probably not, but you've incidentally touched on the crux of the naming dispute. "Western Macedonia" has been used with some frequency to refer to the region of the FYROM affected by Albanian separatism in recent conflicts, but it also happens to be the name of a specific administrative unit of Greece, a notable entity in its own right. That's why Greece has been arguing all along that having two political entities called Macedonia inevitably leads to confusion. I agree with your point about capitalisation, though. I don't see it as particularly necessary. As for your distinction between West/Western Macedonia, I note that it would only be applicable to English, which is rather unique in having such alternate adjectives. In any case, they are interchangeable and wouldn't serve any meaningful disambiguation purpose. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 21:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, my objection was only against the capitalization and against the possible misconception that there are several Republics of Macedonia. I think "Western Republic of Macedonia" should be changed to "the western part of the Republic of Macedonia" in this guideline, that's the only thing I'm seeking to change. I am in perfect agreement with the guideline (and with you) in the main point that the western part of the ROM should not be called simply "Western Macedonia" (capitalized or not), and I apologize if I hadn't been as clear on that point as I thought I had. The parenthesis about "West Macedonia" was just a suggestion that maybe the wording in the guideline should be changed to correspond with the article title, but if your point is that keeping it as "Western Macedonia" here will show more clearly why it makes the use of "Western Macedonia" to refer to the western part of the ROM impossible, then I guess that's all right. -- Jao 11:37, 5 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the "the Western part of..." construct might be a bit clearer. sys < in 16:05, 5 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

But Jao is right when he says it shouldn't be capitalised in English; it is an informal designation and using capitals could have the effect of implying a separate political status. Hence why the former West Germany has now been reduced to western Germany. And perhaps the wording should be changed per his observations to reserve both West and Western for West Macedonia, i.e. Western Macedonia, Central Macedonia and Eastern Macedonia [and Thrace] are the official names of 3 Greek peripheries... should be changed to West/Western Macedonia, Central Macedonia and East/Eastern Macedonia... There is no such adjectival distinction in Greek, after all. Any objections? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 07:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

i don't disagree, but here's the thing: WP:CAPITAL#Directions_and_regions talks about the Southern United States which is also an informal designation, analogous to "Western FYROM". So, counterintuitive as it may sound, it appears to me that the MOS specifies capitalization. sys < in 10:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, the Southern United States is very much in use as a proper noun, although it's more often rendered as "The South" or "The American South". It's not an official designation and its borders are not unambiguously defined, but the difference is obvious from this: New Mexico is a state in the southern United States, but not in the Southern United States, while Virginia is in the Southern United States, but hardly in the southern United States. So clearly it's a proper noun. -- Jao 15:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Arvanites

The recent, now settled, discussion at Talk:Arvanites reveals a weakness. The clause permitting "former Yugoslav" in articles about organizations, etc., was never intended to include all incidental mentions in articles about subjects in Greece, like Arvanites, but articles whose subject is Greece, the Eurovision Song Contest, and so forth. I have tweaked accordingly. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're really clutching at straws here. Ask any member of the subject of the aforementioned article what he thinks the neighbouring country should be called, and see if his answer differs. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

States

I don't think that spasmodically altering the wording in order to crack down on the use of a particular terminology in articles relating to Greece is the way to go about things. In any case, if that was the original intent of the author, it is clearly unacceptable to me and to other Greek editors I'm sure. Pray tell, what is the purpose of mentioning "states" in the first place if you don't think FYROM should be used in articles concerning those states? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 251: / Line 251: @@
 ==Arvanites==
 The recent, now settled, discussion at [[Talk:Arvanites]] reveals a weakness. The clause permitting "former Yugoslav" in articles '''about''' organizations, etc., was never intended to include all incidental mentions in articles about subjects in Greece, like [[Arvanites]], but articles whose ''subject'' is Greece, the Eurovision Song Contest, and so forth. I have tweaked accordingly.  [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 15:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
+:You're really clutching at straws here. Ask any member of the subject of the aforementioned article what he thinks the neighbouring country should be called, and see if his answer differs. [[User:Kékrōps|·ΚέκρωΨ·]] 15:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 == States ==