Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gender studies

This article is part of WikiProject Gender Studies. This WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Wikipedia. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.

Women and History

I'm not a part of this project but while looking about for some good models to start a History of women in Australia article, I've really struggled in finding one. The History of women in the United States article seems to be a good example of the problem as I see it. It is pretty much a history of feminism and any information outside of that is limited to a feminist analysis of "roles" etc, without much context (historical or philosophical) provided. The Women's History article which purports to be "a history of female human beings" begins with the section "rights and equality" which an extremely ahistorical (and western-biased) place to start. Feminism is, after all, an -ism and as such the weight it appears to be given in articles relating to women and history (which seem to be just the tip of the iceberg) is a serious problem in terms of presenting an npov. The presence of the feminism infobox in these articles is itself, imo, evidence of bias. As a feminist myself, I am concerned by this as the conflation of feminism and female simply further marginalises women and reduces this subject area to the femin(ist) sphere. A history of women (whether general or limited by class/ethnicity/nationality etc) should be balanced by context and adhere to the historical method. Internal wikilinks can easily provide relevant feminist analyses.
I just wanted to voice this opinion here (which I hope does not offend) because I believe that it relates to your goals as to what this project is not. I believe that articles relating to feminism and feminist analyses of all subjects should be have their place in wikipedia but those articles should be titled as such (ie; "Feminist history in the United States") and not be represented as anything broader. And I believe that the Feminism infobox should be used only in articles relating to feminism, not articles related to women. baby_ifritah 14:19, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

You can see from teh goals and whatthis project is not that WP:GS is not about creating articles like the ones you have described. I believe you are correct to remove the feminism temlate. I would suggest you also create an alternative specifically for women's histories. There is one thing that complicates matters though, most books about women's history are feminist writings perhaps a section explaining this in such articles would be useful.--Cailil ^talk 14:53, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Proposed category: Biology of gender

Hi everyone,

I propose we create Category:Biology of gender.

Main articles

Biology of gender

Causes of sexual identity

Member articles

Anne Fausto-Sterling

Brain Sex

David Reimer

de Lacoste-Utamsing

Defeminization

Dihydrotestosterone

John Money

Milton Diamond

Ralph Holloway

Sex differences

Sexual differentiation

Steven Goldberg

Testosterone poisoning

The Inevitability of Patriarchy

Virilization

Why Men Rule

--Kevinkor2 03:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I support the category. Nice and interdisciplinary. There's a fair bit of related information across those articles, from quite a few different perspectives. I recommend you include Sexual dimorphism also. Perhaps Intersex, perhaps not. There'll be other articles people will find if you just go ahead and make the category. People can always remove articles from the category if they think they are not relevant. That's my 2 cents. Cheers. Alastair Haines 14:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Done. --Kevinkor2 20:50, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

The idea sounds interesting and potentially useful, but it will be important to distinguish the biology of sex from the biology of gender. The biology of sex shades into the biology of gender, so keeping the two clear of each other depends on keeping a clear focus on what is central to each.

To be less abstract: We know what determines the ability of some individuals to produce sperm, the ability of other individuals to produce ova, and also the factors that preclude some individuals from producing either. That is sex in the "irreductible" sense. It is primarily established on the level of the genotype, but the genotype is not always expressed. Sometimes events in the womb prevent the expression of the genotype. That sexual identity has a definite effect on gender identity, but it is not the only effect.

If nothing happens to thwart the normal development of the genitalia, it is still possible to have the development of the brain become discordant with the genitalia. That is a biological development, usually driven by abnormal hormonal levels at a crucial point in brain development. "Brain sex" is biological and has its own impact on the gender identity of individual, but it is not clear that it can overcome all other impacts.

Learning is the factor involved with gender identity that is not biological, but it (always?) interacts with what is present biologically. John Money began his career by overgeneralizing from some experiences that indicated that children's gender identity can be determined by enculturation experiences. People in the field now seem to stress that in many cases brain sex trumps both genitalia and enculturation, but there may be cases where learning experiences throw the balance one way or the other. It may be that in considering the impact of learning experiences one has to take account of the phenotype of the individual.

These considerations are very important for some individuals trying to understand their own sexuality, for parents who want to understand why their child's behavior is inconsistent (in their view) with their child's genitalia, etc. So it is important to get these matters clearly and objectively described. However, there is probably so much remaining to be learned that it is necessarily difficult to pin down true cause and effect relationships. Concerned individuals need to understand that there is no certain guidance, and also that (issues of abuse aside) whatever happens is not somebody's fault or even their responsibility. P0M 04:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

POV issues

This project began as front for gender-feminists and their flunkies who are pushing an in-credible ideological point of view on gender-related articles. This project is still coming from a reverse-sexist point of view but the project goals have been generalized to the point of meaninglessness so that no one can see point of the project now. This enables the usual 'feminista'-feminist 'subversions' because no one can hold anyone else accountable to meaningless criticia. I will be glad to pull this POV tag as soon as I see reverse-sexist statements in the project deleted, specific non-sexist NPOV goals for the project, and a welcoming attitude from project people for well-sourced content that is 'problematic' to gender-feminist ideologues.

Many credible feminist authors have shown the falsehood, fraud and misrepresentation related to gender-ginning scholarship by so-called 'gender'-feminists. Nathanson and Young show blatant reverse-sexist research on gender by feminist scholars in Legalizing Misandry. They also show how gender as a concept has been hijacked, perverted, and politicized for ideological warfare by feminists in academia and elsewhere.

To ignore these issues or to insist that only gender-ginning editors are allowed to contribute to the project's content/criteria is to pander to ideological feminist pov. Gender feminist rapes of reason are no less serious than those Al Gore illustrates in Assault on Reason. This project needs to aim at a NPOV, reason-able, and plausible take on gender to be a credible project.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.111.95.45 (talk • contribs).

Could you please provide some examples that support your claims? Perhaps it's because I'm new to the project, but I don't see any systemic "gender-feminist" bias being pushed. Cowpepper 12:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I second Cowpepper's request for examples. Unless/until some are provided I'll ignore this complaint as the same baseless kind that pops up here periodically. (And always anonymously. Hmm.) --Alynna 03:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Just so everybody knows the above comments from IP 128.111.95.45 were identified as trolling by the long-term vandal Anacapa. Since making these comments they have been banned. As noted by Cowpepper & Alynna, the comments are both baseless and time wasting - this user was in fact responsible for all of the periodic trolling comments left on this page since October 2006--Cailil ^talk 21:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually I think before the spinoff there were some issues (I brought one up here), but I don't see any POV issues any more... I think he's just ranting. David Fuchs ^{(talk / frog blast the vent core!)} 23:48, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Brooklyn Museum of Art.

The Brooklyn Museum of Art has now opened its web pages on the 1979 work, The Dinner Party by artist Judy Chicago. This includes a database of the women featured in the work, in particular the 999 Women of Achievement depicted in the tiled floor.

I have transferred the list of names shown on the floor from the database to the Dinner Party article (although I fear the number does not reconcile with the 999 stated).

This now provides another list of articles of notable women which Wikipedia needs to develop. Needless to say more than half the links are red. Any help in turning these blue is welcome. Lumos3 09:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Many of these links simply need redirect pages. I've created a few, and will come back to it later. Cowpepper 16:18, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Genderfuck article

Hi, could someone please check out the Genderfuck article for consideration of this project. Thank you! Benjiboi 19:51, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Women by country articles

I encountered the new article Role of women in the Philippines and was curious if it formed part of a series, relating to various countries. It turns out there are some articles like Women in Iraq and Women in India, although there are some differences between focus on roles, social status, legal rights, etc. Is there any effort to make coverage and nomenclature of these articles systematic? Looking above, I also see there are History of women in X articles too. If the contents could be sorted out, it seems like it would be worthwhile and avoid systemic bias if there were articles with similar approach for all countries. Rigadoun (talk) 19:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Proposed re-write of Feminism as per WP:SUMMARY

I'm proposing a re-write of Feminism into summary style. The discussion is at here at talk:feminism and the re-write page is in my user space here--Cailil ^talk 17:51, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

This re-write is almost ready if any one has any comments please drop by the talk feminism discussion or the rewrite page

Peer review requested

Hi. Ruth Kelly is up for peer review here. Your comments are welcome. SP-KP 18:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposed WikiProject

A WikiProject for pregnancy and childbirth related articles has been proposed. For more information and to express interest, please visit Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Pregnancy_and_childbirth. Thanks! --Ginkgo100^talk 00:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

User:Fl1942 prodding of articles

Fl1942 (talk · contribs) is prodding ("deleting") a lot of articles that are about women's organisations or that are critical of (child) prostitution, women trafficking and rape (National Clearinghouse on Marital and Date Rape, Durbar Mahila Samanwaya Committee, All Bengal Women's Union, Tulasa, and others). Many of these articles are notable, so I have deprodded them. He has taken revenge on me by reverting all my edits (see this edit on Alice Bailey). Can someone else please keep a watch on future proddings? --Voidocore 15:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

This message area isn't terribly active so you might do better by keeping watch yourself possibly reaching out to other editors on each of those articles and contact an administrator if they actually violate WP. As much work as it may seem each article has to stand on its own merits so if something comes up for AfD then rally more support to quickly address the most pressing issues. Improving articles is the best way to keep them. If the user seems to be disruptively editing then take it to admin for support and advice. Benjiboi 15:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Without prejudice to the notability, or not, of these organizations it does seem that Fl1942 is editting tendentiously. The reverts, without explanation across a number of articles seem to be retaliatory. Contact a sysop about this--Cailil ^talk 15:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

TV pregnancies

Hi all, I started Pregnancy on television in my userspace. Originally I wanted to write about how TV deals with actresses who become pregnant (such as the Hunter Tylo case) and how TV either acknowledges or hides the pregnancy in the fictional universe of the show. However, I've also set aside space for reality pregnancy shows like the ones on Discovery Health. I would appreciate community comments before I finish it up and move it to article space. Thanks! Wl219 03:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Gender studies about Wikipedia

This is not clearly mentioned in this WikiProject's aims and non-aims: Is there any place where I can find gender studies about Wikipedia, both its articles and its contributors? For example, how many users are men/women, how many WikiProjects are headed by men/women, etc. Obviously the board of the Wikimedia Foundation is very strong in women, but does the same balance apply through all levels? If there are any imbalances, could there be any flaws in the design that should be addressed? Etc. I guess these questions fall outside of this WikiProject, but then, where do they fit? Any hints appreciated. I guess it would sort under m:Wikiresearch, but I didn't find anything there. --LA2 21:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Well as far as I know there is no systematic research into the gender break-down of wikipedians - I'm not sure that it would be possible to undertake a completely accurate one since not all wikipedians reveal their gender. To be honest these are not a wikiproject's concern - wikiprojects look after articles. What you seem to be proposing is independent research the foundation itself may be interested in such a project--Cailil ^talk 22:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Portrayal of women in video games

I just wanted to alert this project to the fact that an article you tagged, portrayal of women in video games as an AFD on it, and if someone here wants to bring it up to acceptable quality they might consider rescuing it. -- AvatarMN 21:05, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I hope there is no gender / sex bais here

The first article appears to be a feminist proclamation. There are actual definitions far outside intended diatribe, and I am begininning to feel misandry. For instance when discussing feminists call for an end to patriarchy, their political position probably is from a singular point of view. BobV01 20:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipdia is not a forum and not a soapbox. Please read WP:TALK to see how to use a talk page properly.--Cailil ^talk 22:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Which article is "the first article" that you're referring to? ➪HiDrNick! 22:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

comments removed by BobV01 have been reinstated. If you wish to retract a comment strike it by placeing it in between<s></s>. It is considered bad form to remove comments that have been quoted or replied to - see WP:TALK--Cailil ^talk 21:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Gender-neutral language proposal at MOS talk

Dear colleagues—You may be interested in contributing to a lively discussion (which I hope will form consensus) here. Tony 15:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

ABBA could use a review

The artcle ABBA makes many references to the two female members of the group as "girls". I believe that the article would be improved if all or very nearly all of these references were replaced with a better term. -- 201.19.20.38 18:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I think this has been completed. Benjiboi 13:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Template:Gender bias

Has the {{Gender bias}} template ever been used effectively for an article cleanup? Nothing is using it as this time. / edg ☺ ★ 02:27, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know it has had no use yet. Apparently some sections in ABBA could use it though--Cailil ^talk 12:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

It's currently a Template for deletion. I'm leaning Delete since it seems unused. / edg ☺ ★ 20:22, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Women writers deletion proposal

People may be interested in this debate: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_September_24#Category:Works_by_women_writers Johnbod 15:45, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Category advice wanted

I've just come across the following category structure. Category:Zimbabwean writers contains Category:Zimbabwean women writers. Tsitsi Dangarembga is only in the latter, Doris Lessing only in the former, and Yvonne Vera in both categories.

Obviously the categorising is incomplete, but how would one take this forward without redundant categorisation? The women are of interest to gender studies folk, but also key to Zimbabwe's literary history. It would be inexcusable (for multiple reasons) to make the higher cat the sole preserve of male Zim writers. Should we split the higher category into Category:Zimbabwean male writers and Category:Zimbabwean women writers, although the numbers are not conducive to this? Or should we lose Cat: Zim women writers in favour of Category:African women writers?

Sorry if this has been previously discussed - I can't suss it. JackyR | Talk 18:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm no expert so just as a suggestion I would eliminate the minor gender categories in favor of just the writers one then on that category page simply note that these are female writers and update it until there is at least a handful to justify their own category. One is a lonely number! Benjiboi 18:58, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

See WP:CATGRS, which says

"For example, separate categories for actors and actresses are not needed, but a female heads of government category is valid as a topic of special encyclopedic interest. That category, however, does not need to be balanced directly against a "Male heads of government" category, as historically the vast majority of political leaders have been male by default. Both male and female heads of government should continue to be filed in the appropriate gender-neutral role category (e.g. Presidents, Monarchs, Prime Ministers, Governors General.) (See Category talk:Singers by gender for details on female and male singers by nationality categories.)"

The usefuluness and acceptability of women writer categories was established in numerous lengthy CfD discussions earlier this year, so the existence of the category is agreed, and there does not need to be a separate Category:Zimbabwean male writers.

As to categorising Zimbabwean women writers, there is a simple rule to apply: they should not be removed from any other appropriate category because they are in Category:Zimbabwean women writers. So a Zimbabwean female novelist should be in Category:Zimbabwean women writers and in Category:Zimbabwean novelists; but a Zimbabwean female essayist should be Category:Zimbabwean women writers and Category:Zimbabwean writers (because there is no Zimbabean essayist category).

Hope this helps. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:56, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

It does help, but leaves me struggling with the § after the one you quote:

"Whenever possible, a valid occupational subcategory should be structured and filed in such a way as to avoid "ghettoizing" people, but at the same time, Wikipedia rules about redundant categorization should also be respected."

Which is a nicely unhelpful statement if ever I saw one. I don't think creating lots of sub-cats is going to get us out, either, because a) the numbers are comparatively small and b) Yvonne Vera is not unusual in having written novels and short stories, produced publications for the National Gallery, and interviewed people for newspapers - so dividing by novelist/essayist/etc may not be appropriate.

Sorry if I seem to be looking for probs, but I don't do much cat work on en:wp, so am nervous of stuffing up. If you say shove 'em all in both Category:Zimbabwean writers and Category:Zimbabwean women writers, even tho these are mother & daughter cats, I'll go ahead and do so. Cheers, JackyR | Talk 23:20, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm sure you ain't looking for probs, just trying to get your head around some rather complex conventions :) I'll try another way of explaining it, in case it's clearer.

1. put all the Zimbabwean women writers in Category:Zimbabwean women writers, and
2. also put them in either or both of Category:Zimbabwean novelists and Category:Zimbabwean poets, as appropriate
3. If they are in neither of Category:Zimbabwean novelists and Category:Zimbabwean poets, then also put them in Category:Zimbabwean writers

I hope that's a bit clearer than my first attempt. But don't worry too much if you get it wrong; wikipedia has strong no-biting rules :) --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I just thought of another, more succinct, way of describing the convention: categorise the person as if there were no gendered categories, and then add any appropriate gendered categories. So an Irish woman who writes modernist poetry would go in Category:Irish modernist poets, and then (adding gendered categories) in Category:Women poets and Category:Irish women writers. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:04, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

That's smart. And easy to remember :-) JackyR | Talk 19:20, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Never stopped me getting bitten! But many thanks, will do as above. Much appreciated, cheers, JackyR | Talk 00:04, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

help rescue article

Hi; the article Pregnancy in science fiction just avoided AFD. There's a germ of a very good article there dealing with the treatment of reproduction in fiction, but at present it's an unsourced list. Help editing would be appreciated, and I'm adding the project tag to the article. --lquilter 19:29, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Fathers' rights movement

I don't know if there is anybody interested in being involved in this article. It isn't a bad little effort, but it is not my area of expertise, (or interest in fact!) My role has mainly been to try balance the various POV editors who appear to try to massage the article more to their way of thinking, and I am getting tired of the role. In any case I welcome some additional voices who can help improve the article.--Slp1 12:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the note Slp1. I'll have a look and see if I can be of any help--Cailil ^talk 14:41, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Women athletes in ancient Greece

Gymnasium (ancient Greece) says: "in ancient Greece only men practiced sports". Sparta says: "a strong emphasis was placed on the physical fitness of men as well as women. Despite their physical fitness, women could not compete in the Olympic Games, according to the Olympic rules (they competed in the Heraea Games instead)." Heraea Games says: "The ancient Heraea Games, dedicated to the goddess Hera (also spelled Heraia) is the first sanctioned (and recorded) women's athletic competition to be held in Olympic Stadium." (etc.) -- We need to reconcile these. -- 201.19.77.39 13:48, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I suggest making specific changes on appropriate articles and support with references if possible. If you get any grief ask for help as articles need to be accurate. Benjiboi 20:39, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Gender and Judaism

There is a related article Role of women in Judaism whose development should probably be coordinated/merged/sub-main'd with this article. A topic has been created to discuss this: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Judaism#Gender and Judaism. Best to all, Egfrank 03:50, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the note Egfrank - will have a look--Cailil ^talk 11:57, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Women in politics

Hi! Women in politics is a current WP:ACID candidate. Expansions of the article (it was two sentences long when I found it) are welcome. Punkmorten (talk) 21:58, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the note Punkmorten. I'll try and help out there if I can--Cailil ^talk 00:45, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Women in the professions

In part as a result of the discussion on the Female models CFD, I have begun a project to write articles on women in various professions. The first such article to discuss the topic generally and link to the sub-articles is Occupations, gender roles, and women's history - I drafted this much-needed article and it was promptly tagged original research (6 minutes after posting the item, tagged stub). I've been adding some of the numerous cites available on the topic. Please feel free to help out.

The larger context is that although these are all well-studied topics, some editors in wikipedia feel that categorizing female professionals (or ethnic professionals) as such is overcategorization. Consequently there have been numerous deletion discussions on Category:Female models, Women in science, Category:Women writers, and so on. Some categories (Category:African American scientists) have been deleted; others have survived. WP:CATGRS is the general guideline on the topic and it states that an intersectional category is appropriate where an article can be written about that topic. As I suspect most people involved in this project know, the history of women in various occupations (and the history of gendering of occupations generally) is a significant topic in women's history, gender studies, and women's studies. Help on this project would be greatly appreciated.

One problem that we face is that editors with little experience in or knowledge of the field tend to see this interdisciplinary topic as original research, and tend to police it rather heavily (I'm feeling uncharitable at the moment so I'm going to allude to the differences in levels of policing of fictional topics and academic topics especially those pertaining to gender and ethnicity.) So basically any stub has to have (1) a topic sentence that explains it; and (2) an extensive list of references from the start to justify and explain to people that this is a well-studied topic. Anything more, or less, is likely to get slapped with tags, AFDs, and so on.

--Lquilter (talk) 17:37, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Magazine article that may be of interest

Magazine article that may be of interest; Where Are All The Women:On MoMa's Identity Politics by Jerry Saltz; New York magazine; pages 130-131. And Data: Gender Studies - Is MoMA the worst offender? We tallied how women fare in six other art-world institutions. Benjiboi 01:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Herland (novel)

Herland (novel) could use some cleanup. -- Writtenonsand (talk) 22:20, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal

I've proposed that Pro-feminism and Pro-feminist men be merged. PF is a stub with no refs and PFM has some good refs. They're both the same thing (basically). Come join the discussion here. Thank you. Phyesalis (talk) 20:38, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Fat feminism & Amazon feminism

partial cross post from Talk:feminism
Fat feminism and Amazon feminism are full of original research and Amazon feminism might have plagiarism issues. If anyone can help with these articles please do. I am thoroughly uncertain of Amazon and Fat feminism's notability - at the moment they almost look like hoax articles due to the serious amount of OR on those pages. I'm going to give them 3 weeks to improve - if they can't be sourced and rationalized by then we'll have to send them to AfD--Cailil ^talk 13:42, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Neutral Wikiproject?

This WikiProject seems to express gender neutral aims. However, its "to do" list seems to betray bias. Why do most if not all of the articles to "expand" deal with women or women's issues, and most if not all of the articles to "review" deal with men or men's issues? Put another way, is this truly a project for "neutral documentarians" as stated on its page, or is it more of a collective of pro-feminist editors? Is the anti-feminist position welcome here? Would an editor having an opinion that most Wikipedia articles on gender issues are edited predominantly from a feminist point of view, with women possibly being overrepresented as editors, be welcome in this WikiProject? Thanks for any response. Blackworm (talk) 07:19, 3 January 2008 (UTC)