Talk:Bill Clinton

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Alleged speech before the Joined Chiefs of Staff

Hello. At the moment I'm studying Russian history using Russian textbook "History of Russia. 1917-2004" by A.S. Barsenkov and A.I. Vdovin. Page 642 reads (it's my translation from Russian):

American strategy towards USSR during perestroika years was later sufficiently openly explained by President B. Clinton. Making a speech in October 1995 in the Joint Chiefs of Staff he said: "The policy towards USSR and its allies during the last 10 years has convincingly proved correctness of our course towards elimination of one of the mightiest world powers, and a powerful military block as well. Using mistakes of the Soviet diplomacy, excessive self-confidence of Gorbachev and his surroundings including those who's clearly accepted pro-American attitude, we've managed to do what Truman had been going to do with the Soviet Union with the use of a nuclear bomb. With a sufficient difference, however — we've got a raw-materials appendage, the state which isn't nuclearly destroyed, that would be uneasy to establish (1)... During the so-called Perestroika... by shaking ideological base of USSR we've managed to bloodlessly draw from the war for the world dominance the major counterpart of America."

After an hour of attempts to find the original Clinton's speech I've refused of an attempt. On one side, it's an authoritative Russian textbook: AFAIK it's one of base history books at the Historical Faculty of the Moscow State University. On the other side, such a powerful Clinton speech would doubtlessly leave some trace in the Net.

Would be grateful for everyone who would shed some light upon this problem. ellol (talk) 14:19, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I have a large collection of Clinton books and speeches and I'm afraid I couldnt find it. However it might be easier if you could clarify when it was made, I assume you mean it was to the Joint Chiefs of staff but in what location, its possible you might be able to locate the source by asking the experts at the Clinton library in Arkansas, especially if its from a military briefing that hasnt recieved much academic/press/internet attention. Sorry I couldnt be of more help. LordHarris 20:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Russian internet is also scarce on this quote. The earliest source I found was 2000 interview with former SVR colonel Aleksandr Drozdov [1]. It specifies the date as October 24, 1995. It seems to be the whole quote. It goes as the the above text, but the difference is it's more full:

The text after first omission marks (note 1) goes as the following: "Yes, we've spent many billions dollars for that, but they are already close to what Russians call 'self-repayment': in four years we and our allies got various strategic resources amounting to 15 billions dollars, hundreds tons of gold, gems, etc. As a pretext for non existing projects, we have obtained for insignificantly low prices over 20 thousands tons of copper, almost 50 thousands tons of aluminium, 2 thousands tons of caesium, beryllium, strontium, etc. (Paragraph) In the years of so-called perestroika in USSR a lot of our military and businessmen didn't believe in success of the upcoming operations. And that was in vain. By shaking ideological base of USSR we've managed to bloodlessly draw from the war for the world dominance the major counterpart of America. Our aim and objective is further providing help to all who want to see a specimen of western freedom and democracy in us..."

That starts to look like some James Bond story! It's a pity if this information is classified in the U.S. That means we can never know truth, and couldn't regard the quote as truthworthy. Well, in fact as a Russian citizen I could try to send a public inquiry to the FSB to validate the quote. Just wonder if that worths a trouble. Will consider asking experts at the Clinton library in Arkansas, though. ellol (talk) 23:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

LordHarris, really, thank you for the help. ellol (talk) 16:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Strange foot notes

The foot notes rangeing from 133 to 152 all lead to sites at something called Ourcampaigns.com/. When you enter those sites, you are brought to a blank, blue page with a login box. Besides, as far as I can see, none of the references mentioned above is used in the actual article, the last foot note in the running text is nr. 132. Bjartewe (talk) 17:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The foot notes are in a new section entitled electoral history. None of the links worked for me also. Perhaps the site is currently not working. I do not know who added it the section though; perhaps they can shed light on this? LordHarris 20:35, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Religion

Is Clinton a Baptist? I was just told that he's a Methodist. Also, I noticed that his wife is a Methodist. Emperor001 (talk) 18:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Clinton is a Southern Baptist. 72.51.165.224 (talk) 00:27, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Early career

I have taken the liberty to remove the "This section does not cite any references or sources." in the early career, part cause it actually has plenty of references in truth. Why do so many conservative yanks hate Billy boy? Europe thinks he is quality. Bill makes people feel sympathetic to the USA, this is truth. - Yorkshirian (talk) 10:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC) Many countries today are swiching leaders for more sympathesity in a world and this is truth that he or she would make it good as a superpower of nice.TNGmania —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.113.25.2 (talk) 09:29, 23 January 2008 (UTC) Clinton isn't a Christian... He's a bastard who just thinks that by going to church he can get more public, and make it look better for his career. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.242.17.105 (talk) 14:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Environmental Record

I noticed that the article touts his environmental achievements after leaving the Oval Office, yet not one mention is made of the fact that it was Willy, not W, who decided not to sumbit Kyoto to the Senate for ratification. Might this not manifest a pro-Clinton bias? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.155.54.107 (talk) 04:30, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Endorsement of the Church of Scientology

I added this section but User:Orangemarlin quickly reverted it claiming undue weight and not a reliable source. This is pure whitewash. I reverted back.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

According to a quotation from a Church of Scientology published book, President Bill Clinton said this of Scientology in a 1996 letter, "You have worked with energy and dedication to provide solutions to the many problems that government alone cannot fix. With your active involvement, you have brought help and hope to the countless people in need..... Your work is going a long way towards healing and renewing your community, inspiring all who seek to improve our world."

It appears that User:Orangemarlin and User:Cagey Millipede are tag team reverting to whitewash the Bill Clinton article.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a form letter commonly sent out by politicians - if every group that received this type of letter was included in the article it would be a long list of so called endorsements. If Clinton really liked Scientology then you should be able to find plenty of info from other sources too. Hardyplants (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 01:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

No evidence of a form letter. Please prove that it is. Your revert is a whitewash.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 04:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Definitely a form letter. Almost identical letter to another constituent here. JoshuaZ (talk) 02:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Not definitely. You are lying to yourself. Prove that it is.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 04:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm lying to myself? I just gave you a link to an almost identical letter to a completely different individual having nothing to do with scientology. The letter reads like a form letter and we have an example of another use. That's more than enough evidence than we need. Given what the letter reads like and the existence of an almost identical letter to another group, the burden of proof should be clear. Oh, and by the way, saying things like "you are lying to yourself" might not construed as the most civil remark. JoshuaZ (talk) 04:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes you are. That Tom Smith is a member of scientology and was evidently involved with whatever project Clinton commended. Oh, and by the way, saying things like "Definitely a form letter" without evidence indicates careless reasoning.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 05:01, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

You are being tendentious; the letter reads like a form letter and we have a nearly identical letter to someone else. That's strong evidence of it being a form letter (and when someone advises you that something you are saying might violate Wikipedia policy, it isn't the best idea to continue with that line of commentary). JoshuaZ (talk) 05:05, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you are being tendentious. We have no evidence that it is a form letter. You did not read what I stated. Tom Smith is a member of the cofs and was involved in the same project that Clinton commended. I am not violating any wikipedia policy, thank you, but I do wonder if you are.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 05:16, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Your evidence that Smith is involved with the COFS is what exactly? Certainly not his his website which doesn't have the word scientology in it at all or the word scientologist. The general search of "Tom Smith" +scientologist returns many hits but no evidence that any of them refer to this Tom Smith (indeed, the only really at all connected seems to be a Tom Smith who was labeled a Suppresive Person). JoshuaZ (talk) 05:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

First of all, when we discuss this Tom Smith, we are not discussing an edit. That being said: I knew him personally. He was a member of the cofs, a guitar player and builder, looked the same as the guy in the photo, and was involved in their literacy crusade project. No, he is not the same guy who was labeled. --Fahrenheit451 (talk) 05:50, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

By the way, this is what he has done in the cofs:[2]--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 05:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

You can't invent a controversy just from pulling a quote from a Scientology publication. You must document that there is in fact a controversy, that reliable sources have taken note of such a controversy, and that this letter is more significant than the thousands of letters fired off from the White House to constituents. Your characterization of the letter as an "endorsement" is also original research unless substantiated by a reliable source. Gamaliel (talk) 05:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, this is ridiculous. Can't we just ignore/revert/block? john k (talk) 05:51, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, if you think it is ridiculous, John, why don't you just ignore it and go somewhere else?--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 05:59, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I am no paragon of civility, but even I know when one has exceeded even my loose standards. However, you have moved over into personal attacks. Stating that I am tag teaming with someone whom I've never seen is beyond me. But please find us some reliable sources, and we'll ignore your uncivility and personal attacks. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 06:18, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Please state your standards then. Otherwise, it just seems like you are spouting rhetoric. On the subject of personal attacks, I don't think you know what you are talking about.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 23:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Fahrenheit451 - I think you are misunderstanding my point, most polictions and especially Presidents send out hundreds or thousands of these types of letters, why should the one sent to Scientology be here and not the others? If it belongs any were it should go into the page on Scientology but not here. Hardyplants (talk) 06:48, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Just because politicians send out form letters is not evidence that this one is. I don't even think that conclusion would qualify as an inference. It is a speculation. In either case, that is Original Research and has no place on Wikipedia.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 23:59, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Can you produce a full copy of the letter? So we can see to whom the letter was addressed too. Hardyplants (talk) 05:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

No, sorry, but I only have the citations mentioned in the edit. I suppose a copy could be obtained under the Freedom of Information Act.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 02:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

People, just stop it. Fahrenheit451 is a troll. Ignore him. Revert stupid edits he makes. He's just wasting everybody's time. john k (talk) 17:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

John Kenney, you have just violated WP:NPA and you as an admin should know better. --Fahrenheit451 (talk) 02:28, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

And the obvious issue here is undue weight - mentioning some letter that Clinton wrote, that has gotten no media attention, and no attention from his biographers, and what not, clearly represents undue weight. john k (talk) 17:10, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I have been informed that it is a personal attack to call someone a troll if they are trying to make good faith edits. Indeed, this is fair enough. It is possible that, rather than trolling, purposefully putting in information that he knows is 100% certain to be removed, Fahrenheit 451 is instead a crank who is obsessed with touting Bill Clinton's supposed connections to scientology and really cannot understand why this cannot be included in his article. I apologize for the confusion. john k (talk) 04:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)