Talk:Killing of Muhammad al-Durrah

Conditions for editing

I have requested that page protection be lifted for now, and I encourage people to resume editing. However, in my authority as an uninvolved administrator, I am placing some restrictions:

• No reverts, except for obvious vandalism.
• Keep edit summaries very neutral and civil.
• Ensure that any new material that is added, has a reliable source
• If you see someone add something that you disagree with, don't revert it, change it. Specifically: Try to change it to a compromise wording, or add some (sourced) alternate view wording nearby.
• If you see something added with a source, that you do not think is a reliable source, add a {{verify credibility}} tag next to it.
• If you see a sentence that you don't think properly reflects what is in a source, change it so that it does. Or, add a {{verify source}} tag to it
• If you see something that's added that is unsourced, but it's plausible, don't just remove it. Instead, add a {{fact}} tag to it. Then, if no source is provided in a reasonable amount of time, the statement can be removed.
• If something is added that is unsourced, that is obviously troublesome (such as very biased or potentially untrue), it can be deleted on the spot. Please use a clear edit summary such as "removing unsourced information, see talkpage"). If there is a source though, then use one of the other above steps instead.
• Don't worry about sections, or the article, getting too long (for now). First I'd like to give everyone a chance to add the information that they think needs to be added, and then we can take a look later at putting things in the proper proportion, per WP:UNDUE

Bottom line: Stay civil. Don't revert other editors. If you disagree with an addition, don't delete it, change it.

Good luck, Elonka 16:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Administrative notes

Uninvolved admins

• Elonka (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• MZMcBride (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• PhilKnight (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Jayvdb (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Wizardman (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Editors under ArbCom restrictions

The following active editors on this page have been notified of restrictions, per Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles

• Julia1987 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
  • Note: Julia1987 was previously editing as Southkept (talk · contribs)[1]
• ChrisO (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (admin participating as involved editor)
• Wikifan12345 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Tundrabuggy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Canadian Monkey (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Jaakobou (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• PalestineRemembered (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Liftarn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Other frequent editors on this page

Note: Being listed here does not imply that these editors were disruptive. It is simply for reference, a list of those editors who have recently been actively engaged with this article.

• Beit Or (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• CJCurrie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (admin participating as involved editor)
• JGGardiner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Kauffner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Kelly (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Leifern (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Moreschi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (admin participating as involved editor)
• Nickhh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Pedrito (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Relata refero (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• SlimVirgin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (admin participating as involved editor)
• Tarc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• SJP (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• 6SJ7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Admin log

• ChrisO (talk · contribs), for violating the editing conditions, has been banned from this talkpage for 1 week, and from editing the article for one month. --Elonka 01:57, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
• Julia1987 (talk · contribs) banned for one month from editing the lead section of the article (this includes any changes to the caption of the top image). She is still allowed to make other changes to the rest of the article, and to participate at the talkpage. She is also strongly encouraged to spend some time editing other articles than just this one.[2] --Elonka 15:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
• Tundrabuggy (talk · contribs) ban modified, from 90-day total ban on article and talkpage, to only a ban on article-editing (this was after good contributions by Tundrabuggy on other articles, and discussion between administrators Elonka, MZMcbride, and Jayvdb). Tundrabuggy is allowed to resume participation at the talkpage, and is encouraged to continue editing other articles as well, trying to find at least a 50-50 balance between al-Durrah edits and other work. --Elonka 04:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
• Tundrabuggy (talk · contribs) editing ban lifted, based on excellent work editing and creating other non-Durrah articles. He once again has full privileges to edit the article and participate at the talkpage, in accordance with the current conditions for editing. He is still strongly encouraged to maintain a 50-50 balance (or better) between al-Durrah edits and other work. --Elonka 01:36, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
• Wizardman and I chatted about this off-wiki, and to summarize: Wizardman (talk · contribs) is now chief mediator for the dispute on this article. He is the point person for content issues, while I (Elonka) will remain as point person for user conduct issues, specifically as related to the Conditions for Editing and any needed discretionary sanctions. All editors are invited to post a statement at Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-06-17 Muhammad al-Durrah to help the mediation get going. --Elonka 20:54, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
• Wikifan12345 (talk · contribs) banned from article and talkpage for one week. He is still allowed (and encouraged) to participate at mediation. --Elonka 22:52, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
• Liftarn (talk · contribs) has been violating the editing conditions by reverting and removing sources. He has been formally cautioned about ArbCom restrictions,[3] and if there are further violations, I recommend a page ban. --Elonka 01:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Anyone, admin or editor, who has questions or comments on any of the above, may post here.

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The shooting

I've changed the statement that said the shooting was captured by several cameramen, as this is misleading. While the events of the day at the junction (occasional gunfire exchanges, rock throwing by palestinaisn, and play acting) were indeed captured by multiple camera crews, only abu rahma captured the al-dura incident. In fact, one of the elements of the "staged" theory is that despite the presence of multiple crews who were constantly filming - only abu rahma manged to catch this incident, despite it allegedly lasting 30-45 minutes. One other crew did film the al-duras crouching behind the barrel, but that same scene has multiple other people walking by them casually, with no indication of any gun-battle in progress. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid you've misread the text. It didn't say that the shooting was captured, it said that the gun battle was captured - that includes the exchanges of gunfire on both sides. I've reworded the line to make it clear that the broadcast footage of the al-Durrahs came from Abu Rahma. As for your claims, what's your source? -- ChrisO (talk) 18:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

A gun battle was captured by other crews, but not one in which the al-Durrahs are involved. The way it was phrased before my change leads the reader to believe that the incident which is the topic of this article was captured by more than one crew - which is false. Only the F2 vidoe shows the al-durrahs allegedly being shot at. There are many sources which document this anomaly - multiple crews filming throughout the day, yet a 45 minute shooting incident is only captured by a lone photogarpher. One of them isthis"Much of the day’s events are filmed by the various (20 or so) television crews, but only Abu Rahma records what he claims to be Mohammed Al Dura’s death by Israeli bullets. (A Reuters clip apparently captures Jamal and Mohammed Al Dura filmed from a different angle.)", and others are available on Landes's web site. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:02, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Real sources, please, not CAMERA or Landes. The source I'm citing - a reliable mainstream newspaper, not a personal website or lobbying group - says definitively it's the same battle . -- ChrisO (talk) 19:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see you providing any source for that claim - the only reference for that section is Abu rahma statement, and he was found, I remind you, to be an unrelaible witness by the French court. As to my sources, there's nothign wrong with CAMERA as a source for this claim, nor with Landes. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:12, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I've provided the source in the article. CAMERA is not a reliable source, nor is Landes - as I've pointed out, lobbying groups are not considered reliable sources, nor are individuals' personal websites. Wikipedia:Verifiability specifically precludes us from using such questionable sources. You're welcome to try to argue your case at the reliable sources noticeboard, though I believe CAMERA has been discussed before and found wanting. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Chris, can you say why CAMERA would not be regarded as a reliable source under WP:V? As for Landes, he does count as one, because he's become a specialist in this area; he's an academic with what he describes as a relevant background (propaganda, as I recall); and he's been acknowledged as a legitimate commentator by other reliable sources, including France 2 — I believe they agreed several years ago to give him access to the raw footage for his research.

The article should not give the impression that the shooting was filmed by anyone other than the France 2 cameraman. That he filmed it alone is, indeed, what a lot of the controversy stems from. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 19:23, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I see you have now added a source, but what that source says is that the "other" video" is "splicing together footage shot on the day by France 2 and other Western agencies". so we have no way of knowing what parts of this "spliced" and heavily edited anonymous video were actually shot by sources other than F2. As you say - let's have some real sources, please. You may want to have a look at this: "Through his diligent compilation work, Shahaf located some previously unknown taped material that depicts the scene of Muhammad Al-Dura and his father from additional angles. There is a scene in which a television photographer may be seen kneeling right next to the child and his father. Thus, there had to be an additional photographer there as well, the one who filmed the first photographer. There is also a picture of youths running and passing by a barrel of cement in order to get away from the place. Al-Dura and his son stay behind the barrel and do not join the people who, it seems, are getting themselves away from a dangerous area." Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Shahaf is <BLP Violation removed>, so I'm not inclined to put any weight on his claims. But the gist of his claim is already stated in the article from Abu Rahma himself: "His attention was drawn to the child by Shams Oudeh, a Reuters photographer who was sitting beside Muhammad al-Durrah and his father. The three of them were sheltering behind a concrete block." I'm not sure about the usefulness of the JCPA source, since (a) it's obviously an opinion piece and (b) it's just a retelling of Shahaf's claims. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:59, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Your opinion of Shahaf is mildly interesting, but entirely irrelvent. The source is Amnon Lord, a well known and highly respected Israeli journalist, published by the JCPA, which is a perfectly valid WP:RS. Canadian Monkey (talk) 22:07, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The 'gist' of the claim made by the supportes of the 'staged' theory is not that there was another photographer nearby, but rather that there are many people filmed walking or running by the barrel, without any apparent need to take cover the way the Al-Durrahs were (have you asked yourself, for example, where is footage of the event by Shams Oudeh? ) Consider also this impeccable source: "Despite the number of cameras that were running that day, Mohammed and Jamal al-Dura appear in the footage of only one cameraman—Talal Abu-Rahma, a Palestinian working for France 2." [4]. As I said, numerous sources have commented on this apparent anomaly, and we should not be brushing it aside with a statement that misleads readers into thinking the controversial incident (as opposed to the general events of the day, including exchanges of fire) had been caught by anyone other than Rahma. Canadian Monkey (talk) 22:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Fallows appears to be factually incorrect. The Age article I cited states that the al-Durrahs are visible, albeit blurrily, in the long-shot footage taken by other cameramen at the scene. To be fair, he wrote that piece years before The Age did theirs, so he may not have been aware of the other footage. It certainly appears to be accurate to say that the actual shooting was only captured by Abu Rahma, but the general scene including the al-Durrahs is reliably reported to have been recorded by other cameramen at the scene. I'm not going to speculate about Shams Oudeh - neither of us know what happened to any pictures he took (or indeed if he took any). Much of the conspiracy theory depends on speculation and innuendo, but we're not going to write this article on that basis. I'd like to think Wikipedia has higher standards than that. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:39, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not suggesting we write the article based on speculation. I brought up Oudeh because you had introduced the unsourced claim that Rahma was the 'closest to the incident' - apparently in an attempt to explain (in other words, speculate) on why he was the only one to capture the incident- but he clearly was not. Oudeh was closer, and yet did not film anything remotely like what Rahma did. We agree that the actual shooting was only captured by Abu Rahma, but we apparently disagree as to what 'the general scene including the al-Durrahs' which was captured on film by other photographers is. You seem to be under the impression (and have worded the disputed statement to suggest) that there is footage, other than the one shot by Rahma, showing the al-Durrahs hiding during a gun battle. I don't think that is the case. To be sure, there are shots of gun battles taking place at the junction, some even in locations that are close to the famous barrel. But as far as I can tell, there is no footage other than the 50+ seconds shot by Rahma that shows the al-Durrahs involved in any gun battle, so we shouldn't create that impression with the wording you have chosen. As to the Age source you cite, you are misrepresenting what it says. Again, the quote there is " "splicing together footage shot on the day by France 2 and other Western agencies" - in other words, a heavily edited video, by an anonymous editor, which combines both the Rahma footage and other footage - leaving us no way of knowing what it actually shows, and which parts were shot by which source. If that is what you are going by, we might add a footnote that says that according to the Age, there exists an edited video which splices together rahma's shots with other shots in which the al-Durrahs are blurrily seen, but not much more than that. Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Let's recap what the video shows, according to our reliable sources. We know from the testimony of the eyewitnesses that the al-Durrahs and Abu Rahma were sheltering behind a concrete cylinder and minivan respectively, taking refuge from an ongoing gun battle. The Age describes the video as showing the three of them sheltering in those positions while the battle was raging: "There is a lot of automatic gunfire - from both the Israeli army base and Palestinian security men filmed as they shoot back from positions at either end of the wall against which the al-Duras are huddled." So according to The Age, the video does quite clearly depict the al-Durrahs and Abu Rahma in the crossfire of an armed clash. Since it shows Abu Rahma, it obviously can't have been filmed by him. We know from other testimony by Abu Rahma that he filmed some of the events before the shooting (stone-throwing etc) and The Age does describe seeing this in the video, but he also says that he stopped filming after the al-Durrahs were shot. He doesn't say why, but France 2 has said that he had a low battery. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:01, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The passage you quote above doesn't say that the boy and his father are visible hiding from crossfire. Can you link to the source where France 2 talks about a low battery, please? I've not been able to find it. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 19:33, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The passage I quoted clearly describes the al-Durrahs as being caught in a crossfire between the two sides, even if it doesn't use the word "crossfire". As for the battery, it's mentioned in the International Herald Tribute article of February 7, 2005: "The footage of the father and son under attack lasts several minutes, but does not clearly show the boy's death. There is a cut in the scene that France 2 executives attribute to the cameraman's efforts to preserve a low battery." -- ChrisO (talk) 20:18, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The article mentions them and crossfire, but it doesn't say that anyone other than France 2 captured them and the crossfire on video. But I believe all the available footage is on Richard Landes' site, so we can simply look. Thanks for the IHT reference. SlimVirgin ^talk|edits 20:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't regard Landes' site as remotely reliable, so please don't "simply look" there - we have no idea whether his footage has been edited or even if it all comes from the same incident. He would certainly have every motive to distort it, given his political views and role in this controversy. I found another source which states that the footage described by The Age was shot by a Reuters cameraman (probably Shams Oudeh, the one named in the article - it's not clear, but it would be a logical assumption). But I think, from The Age's description of it, the footage does clearly show them in the crossfire. As I've said above, we know from the eyewitness testimony that they were sheltering from gunfire; The Age describes how the footage shows them sheltering while soldiers and gunmen "shoot back from positions at either end of the wall against which the al-Duras are huddled" (again, note the tense: "are huddled"; the huddling and shooting are simultaneous). -- ChrisO (talk) 20:44, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Agian, no. What the Age article says of this edited video consisting of footage shot by Rahma and other sources which has been spliced together is that "In a couple of long shots Abu Rahma is visible, huddled in the dubious cover of a white van parked a few metres from the figures behind the barrel.", and in other shots "There is a lot of automatic gunfire — from the Israeli Army base and the Palestinian security men clearly filmed as they return fire from positions at either end of the wall against which the Duras are huddled.". In other words - in the shots that show both Rahma and the Al-Durrahs, there is no mention of gunfire, and in other shots, where there is gunfire, the al-durrahs are visible, but not Rahma, and they are presumably the footage shot by Rahma. As I wrote earleir, this unverifyiable, heavily edited tape by an anonymous editor may be worth mentioning in a footnote, as something claimed by the Age, but not more than that. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:51, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, you've just failed your basic English comprehension test... Re-read the sentence I highlighted: "they shoot back from positions at either end of the wall against which the al-Duras are huddled." Not "were huddled" or "will later be huddled", but "are huddled". In other words, the huddling and the shooting are simultaneous. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:31, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Your incivility aside, this is non-responsive to what I wrote. I did not make a point of the timing (i.e - was there shooting when the al-Durrahs are visible) , but rather that when they are visible and there is shooting, Rahma is not visible - so it is likely he took those shots, as the anonymous video is a pliced version of his footage and other footage. Canadian Monkey (talk) 03:57, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe that conclusion would be original research, as it seems to be based on your views ("it is likely that..."), rather than what reliable sources have said. I'm going by what The Age has reported. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The Age does not report what you claim. Specifically, it says nothing about the Reuters tape, and does not describe any shooting incident in which both the al-Durrahs and Rahma are visible. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:56, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Please don't engage in idle speculation - it's a waste of time and effort. If you have something substantive to contribute, please do so. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:39, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Sure thing, Chris. Idle speculation gone. We should all take your (very good) advice. Tundrabuggy (talk) 00:54, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Karsenty was found guilty

See (in french): http://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/A-Dura/France-2/Karsenty:_depuis_l%27arr%C3%AAt_de_la_Cour_d%E2%80%99appel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.65.133.234 (talk) 14:13, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Some confusion here, I think? The judgment says that Karsenty was found guilty by a lower court. If you read down to the bottom it sets aside that court's verdict. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:46, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

59 seconds?

I've flagged the claim in the article that the footage was "edited down to 59 seconds" - I can't find a single reliable source that states this. Where does the figure come from? -- ChrisO (talk) 08:00, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is that there is some question as to whether it was 55 or 59 seconds. This from the Jerusalem Post [5] "France 2's original September 30, 2000, broadcast showed 55 seconds of edited footage from the Netzarim junction..." Tundrabuggy (talk) 16:04, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that's very helpful. The next question is do we know whether France 2 distributed more than this 55-second package to other broadcasters? -- ChrisO (talk) 19:53, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

They may have distributed some of what has been called the "playacting" going on, but it is clear that they did not distribute the rather important edited-out 10 seconds described as "peeking out from under his arm" by most, and "the death 'agonies'" by Enderlin et al, until forced to do so by the court some years later. Tundrabuggy (talk) 12:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The shooting, again

The following quote is referenced to a Matthew Kalman in the Daily Mail:

According to the father, "Muhammad was hit in the knee by a bullet. I tried to defend him with my body, but another hit him in the back. I cried and shouted for help. The shooting continued even as Muhammad bled. Suddenly a bullet hit me in the shoulder, and it was followed by another and then a third. I stopped counting the bullets and could not tell what had happened to Muhammad. I regained consciousness in the ambulance and felt the body of my son. It was cold."^[20]

This citation is not verifiable as far as I can see in my research. Something as important as this testimony should have some verifiable source. Looks like the references are all screwed up at the moment. Tundrabuggy (talk) 17:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean that it's "not verifiable"? It's certainly verifiable if you have access to a database of Daily Mail articles or, indeed, the original newspapers. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah! Tundrabuggy seem to have removed the link so we can't check it. // Liftarn (talk)

It's still there in the article - check out ref 24 in the footnotes. I added some more references further up in the article, which has broken Tundrabuggy's hyperlink in the paragraph above. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I would think that something as inflammatory as that ought to be verified somewhere else. Who is the author and why can't one seem to find the quote anywhere else? Heaven knows there seems to be plenty of ink on this subject. Why can't we find another source that can be accessed? And Liftarn, I did not remove the link. Tundrabuggy (talk) 20:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The author is this guy; he's a long-established British Middle East correspondent who was the Daily Mail's Jerusalem correspondent at the time of the shooting. As for "why one can't seem to find the quote anywhere else", I presume you're Googling for it and not finding it. That's not surprising - the Mail and other Associated Newspapers titles were latecomers to the online news publishing business. It wasn't until as late as 2003 that they started publishing their stories online, [6] so Kalman's October 2000 report obviously wouldn't have had much circulation beyond the UK. But it's easily retrievable if you have access to professional news databases, which I do.

And by the way, what's "inflammatory" about this? It's nothing that isn't reported by several other sources. Kalman has the advantage of having actually gone to the scene and spoken to the family. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:40, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The article is real, and verifiable to anyone with access to a good university database, or probably even just a library card and access to a local library website. I verified it within a few minutes via the latter method. It's a real article, published in The Daily Mail, which evidently picked it up off the "Europe Intelligence Wire". I didn't see a Kalman byline in my version, which was on NewsBank. It does have the feel of an "early report" to it, since it says, "For the first time last night, his father Jamal, swathed in bandages in hospital, told how a day out to find a new car ended in tragedy." The al-Durra portion is also a relatively small section of a longer article that was covering multiple such incidents in the latest round of Middle East fighting. So it might be worth couching it as an early report, but I'll leave that up to the editors here, and/or WP:RSN. --Elonka 21:15, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't know, maybe I was having a bad day, it didn't show up for me. Thanks for finding it and verifying. The whole quote doesn't even make much sense because he says the boy was shot in the back, and that he was cold. The ambulance driver seems to say that he was breathing when he got in the ambulance, and if he was shot in the back, then there was no way he could have been shot by the Israelis. I did find out about Kalman, who seems to have an excellent reputation. Tundrabuggy (talk) 03:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I noticed from Googling his name that CAMERA has praised him, so that should be good enough for you. ;-) If you look further down in the article, you'll see that there's a statement that "doctors who examined the boy's body said that he had been shot from the front in the upper abdomen and the injury to his back that his father had seen was an exit wound". A correction for Elonka - the Europe Intelligence Wire is a news redistribution service, so the story was picked up by the EIW from the Daily Mail, not the other way round. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:30, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

It's already couched as an early report, since it's within a section entitled "The incident as initially reported". -- ChrisO (talk) 21:24, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Gun battle(s)?

I noticed that Canadian Monkey had added a claim based on the proposition that "there were multiple gn battles" [sic]. I know of no contemporary source which suggests that. On the contrary, this BBC report - published a few hours after the incident, and just before the al-Durrah shooting had become a cause célèbre - describes a single gun battle lasting 20 minutes in which "one 12-year-old Palestinian boy" (clearly al-Durrah) was shot and killed. Every contemporary source I've found so far - including the Israeli statements - has described the episode as a single incident. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, "this episode" - the one showing the al-Durrahs being shot - is a single incident, but "this episode" is also one which was only captured by Rahma. There are several sources describing exchanges of gunfire throughout the day, and I'm surprised your meticulous research has not turned them up. Here is Fallows on the topic: "A few of the civilians had pistols or rifles, which they occasionally fired; the second intifada quickly escalated from throwing rocks to using other weapons. The Palestinian policemen, mainly in the Pita area, also fired at times. The IDF soldiers, according to Israeli spokesmen, were under orders not to fire in response to rocks or other thrown objects. They were to fire only if fired upon. Scenes filmed throughout the day show smoke puffing from the muzzles of M-16s pointed through the slits of the IDF outpost." (see [http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200306/fallows this) Canadian Monkey (talk) 15:32, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Fallows was writing nearly three years later. This plainly isn't "as originally reported". Every contemporary source I've seen (and I've seen a lot by now, believe me) speaks of a single incident. Presenting Fallows' view as "originally reported" is quite simply untrue, it misrepresents the source and it contradicts what was actually reported at the time. Fallows' revisionism is certainly relevant later in the article, but not in a section on the incident "as originally reported". -- ChrisO (talk) 17:01, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

This section, though labeled ‘as originally reported’, is chock full of references to non-contemporary sources. The Age article, which you added, was written in 2007, yet it is used extensively, to support three different statements, in different subsections of this section. Also currently referenced are articles by Sullivan, in the Jerusalem Post, written in mid-2001, an article by Schouman, in the Jerusalem Post, written in 2007, multiple references to Jeambar & Leconte, published in Le Figaro in 2005. We reference an article by Leigh, in the Daily Mirror, written in 2001 and Schapira’s ARD documentary, from 2002. No fewer than 4 (!) references to Tierney’ Glasgow Herald piece, from 2003, are made. We reference Carvajal’s IHT piece from 2005 and an anonymous Toronto Star piece, from 2001. We make two references to Goudsouzian’s Gulf News piece from 2001, and to Pnesy’s article, in le Monde, written in 2004.

We will either remove every single one of these anachronistic accounts from this section, in keeping with its “‘as originally reported” title, or we will allow non-contemporary sources alongside them. What we will not do is selectively include accounts from 2007, such as the O’Loughlin article, because we like what they say, while excluding accounts from 2003 because they are “non-contemporary”. Canadian Monkey (talk) 03:53, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I've already explained what I'm trying to do in this section: present what people said, saw and filmed at the time. For instance: Jeambar and Leconte provide the wording (in French - the English translations I've found are differently worded and inaccurately translated) of what Enderlin reported in September/October 2000. Shapira reports what the Palestinian doctors said in September/October 2000. O'Sullivan reports what the Israeli soldiers saw in September.October 2000. Psenny, Poller and O'Loughlin report what was filmed in September/October 2000. What's being excluded from this section is personal opinions of writers that weren't written in September/October 2000. Get the idea now? -- ChrisO (talk) 10:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I’ve read your explanation of what you are supposedly trying to do in this section, but even if I were to accept that this is what needs to be done, your explanation is at odds with what you are actually doing. Tierney’s article for example, written in 2003, is not used to describe how the incident was reported in 2000, but rather to provide a non-contemporary description of the father’s condition in 2003. To wit ‘a journalist who interviewed him in 2003 reported that "there is a web of deep scarring around his groin area. There is scarring on his legs and around his right elbow area. His right hand is withered and he is unable to move some fingers because of nerve damage. He limps.’ Similarly, the Carvajal piece is not used to describe how the incident was originally reported, but rather to render a non-contemporary account of how the Jordanian King visited al-Dura in an Amman hospital. There is no difference between Fallows’ 2003 account that “The Palestinian policemen, mainly in the Pita area, also fired at times” and the Toronto star 2001 account that “The Israeli troops initially responded with rubber bullets and tear gas before gunfire erupted”, or between O’Loughlin’s 2007 account that “A Palestinian policeman dies behind the wheel of his Land Rover within a few metres of the spot where two blurred figures can be seen” and Fallows’ 2003 account that “Scenes filmed throughout the day show smoke puffing from the muzzles of M-16s pointed through the slits of the IDF outpost.". We either allow them all, or none of them. Canadian Monkey (talk) 02:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

You may have a point about Tierney's description of the wounds - obviously that describes the situation as of 2003, not 2000, so it would probably be more appropriate in another section (probably in a discussion of the conspiracy theory since it's relevant to that). His description of the injuries and treatment are relevant, though, as they describe contemporary happenings. I've replaced Carvajal's description of the Jordanian king's visit with a contemporary source. Good catch on Fallows' descriptions; let's add those to the article, since again he's describing contemporary events. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Violation of edit restrictions on this page

Liftarn, this edit not only removed well sourced information (2 references are given), but is a clear violation of the 0RR restriction on this page. Please undo it, or you may be subject to editing restrictions. Canadian Monkey (talk) 14:21, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

He was right to remove your addition - not only was it not contemporary reporting (hint: the section is titled "The incident as originally reported"), but your text was ridiculously POV ("the clearly faked evacuation"?). In addition, your claim that "there were multiple gn battles" [sic] is original research and is not supported by any contemporary sources - please see and respond to my comments in the section above. -- ChrisO (talk) 14:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The question is not if he was right or not - we can debate that on the talk page and come to a consensus on how to include (or exclude) this material. This page is subject to 0RR, and he violated that restriction. I am sure you thought you were right when you violated 0RR on this page - but you were nonetheless restricted from editing it because of that violation. I'm giving Liftarn an opportunity to avoid a similar fate.

You raise an interesting point regarding the need for contemporary sources. I take it you will be shortly removing any reference to The Age article from this section, then, as it is from 2007?

As to the 'ridiculously POV' text you complain of - this is a statement taken, verbatim, from the cited source. Please read it. Canadian Monkey (talk) 15:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

AS I said on my talk page. It was not a revert. It was a removal of unsourced and biased text. Yes, there were sources, but they did not say anything like the text you entered. // Liftarn (talk)

It was a revert, as you removed everything, even changes that were not related to that particular source.[7] If you disagreed with the source, then per the #Conditions for editing, you could have tagged it with {{vc}} (verify credibility of the source) or {{vs}} (verify the information from the source), but you should not have simply reverted. --Elonka 20:01, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Challenge on one of the reporters

In relation to the Reuters' film and what is on it, Ed O'Loughlin is referenced. The article currently reads: "Two figures dressed like the al-Durrahs can be seen from several angles, sheltering behind an obstruction, and Abu Rahma is visible taking cover behind a white van parked on the opposite side of the road. An ambulance driver and a Palestinian policeman are shown being killed as they attempt to reach the al-Durrahs. Soldiers in the Israeli army base and Palestinian gunmen are seen exchanging bursts of automatic gunfire from opposite ends of the wall against which the al-Durrahs are sheltering.[21]" The reference given is: O'Loughlin, "Battle rages over fateful footage". The Age, October 6, 2007 This reporter is considered by some to be highly biased. See How to spot a slanted journalist Landes and My Israel Reporting Explained, february 22, 2008 Australian Jewish News --ED O'LOUGHLIN responds to critics of his reporting from Israel, chiefly Melbourne Ports MP Michael Danbyand Ed O’ Loughlin’s journalism: defending the indefensible - When responding to critics, it’s always a good idea to get your facts right Tzi Fleisher and more. So my point is, I don't think this is a good source used alone, and vote to strike anything that is backed up by his word alone. Is there Reuters film that is in the public domain that shows the ambulance driver and Palestinian policeman being killed? Is there film of the Israeli army base and PA gunmen exchanging gunfire? Or is there a reliable uncontroversial news report that has seen it and vouches for it? Tundrabuggy (talk) 14:50, 19 July 2008 (UTC) In fact in the Richard Landes articles he fisks this very reference and says "There is no evidence of an ambulance driver even shot, much less killed. If I’m wrong and there’s other footage depicting this, he’s seen entirely new evidence, and should tell us where he saw it." Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Middle East reporter criticised by pro-Israel groups shock. I'm afraid Ed O'Loughlin is a professional journalist, who works subject to editorial oversight. Totally passes WP:RS and his factual accounts of what he has seen cannot automatically be rejected just because some people don't like what he says more generally. Are you suggesting he's making this up? --Nickhh (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

This is just a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT on TB's part. Activists constantly criticize journalists if coverage of any controversial issue doesn't suit them - that just goes with the job. Please don't bother quoting Landes' website, it's an unusable source. On the ambulance driver, I've found multiple corroborating sources; I'll add those to the article. -- ChrisO (talk) 15:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Please dispense with the name calling. Just deal with the article and the issues please. Tundrabuggy (talk) 19:32, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

No, there are multiple problems here. One is that the Age article in question is from 2007, so it does not belong in a section called 'the incident as originally reported'. Another is that it makes reference to a tape of unknown origin, which is acknowledged to be heavily edited. A third is that it is used to support a statement about the Reuters tape, when the article does not say the source is Reuters. The Age is a reliable source, but since it is the only source making this claim about a video showing the ambulance driver being killed (a claim contradicted by multiple other sources), it needs to be properly attributed to the source (e.g; "accordign to O'Loughlin...), not stated as fact. 15:25, 19 July 2008 (UTC) Canadian Monkey (talk)

I'm not sure who the last speaker was but he is exactly right. His point is also well taken about 'the incident as originally reported.' It would seem to me that since we are talking about such a contentious issue, we really don't needed it referenced to a contentious reporter. If it's a fact that the Reuters tape says what O'Loughlin says it says, we should be able to find another reliable source to back him up! Also the author claims that it can be seen on the tape that "Soldiers in the Israeli army base and Palestinian gunmen are seen exchanging bursts of automatic gunfire," and others say they have not seen this on any film of that day. Surely we can find a less contentious source to back up his claims? I am not saying get rid of him, just add another source to it. Tundrabuggy (talk) 19:15, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

O'Loughlin is not "contentious", other than to those who choose to label anyone who reports in a way that they disagree with "contentious". You are making the fundamental error of confusing "I don't agree with" with "is therefore biased". There's a bit of Wikipedia history here as well, if you're not aware of it. --Nickhh (talk) 21:59, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly right. He's a professional journalist writing for a mainstream quality newspaper, and as such he epitomises the requirements of a reliable source. If pro-Israel campaigners don't like what he writes, so what? That's their problem, not ours. Journalists who write about contentious topics are often criticised by those with strong opinions on such topics. That's to be expected. It's certainly not a reason to exclude them. In the case of the Arab-Israeli conflict, you'd probably struggle to find a journalist whose reporting hasn't been criticised by someone.

Just to explain what I'm doing with this "incident as initially reported" section, I'm compiling a summary of statements made by eyewitnesses, footage shot or facts reported on or immediately after (up to 2-3 days) the shooting. The Reuters film was shot on the day of the incident, therefore it needs to be documented; in the same vein, I've documented the IDF soldiers' accounts of what they experienced at the time. In both cases the sources were published well after the shooting but I decided to include them as they were a straightforward description of contemporary footage (in the case of the video) and a statement - the only one I've come across - of the soldiers' point of view at the time. Both come from news reports, not opinion pieces. I've consciously excluded any commentary or analysis, hence the exclusion from that section of the very shrill Commentary opinion piece. That piece might potentially be useful at a later point in the article, in relation to the conspiracy theorists, but it certainly doesn't count as a contemporary perspective or as original reporting. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

This double-standard with regards to sources is unacceptable. Either we use only contemporary sources, in which case the Age article, written 7 years after the fact, is out, or we allow later commentary about the original material, in which case the Commentary piece is just as much a valid article form a reliable source, meeting every Wikipedia requirement for inclusion in that section. We don’t pick and choose which sources we want included based on our subjective evaluation of their tone. Canadian Monkey (talk) 01:56, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Not their tone but their content, nature and sourcing. The author of the Commentary piece is one Nidra Poller, who's described as "an American novelist and translator ... who has lived in Paris for 34 years" - i.e. not a journalist. O'Loughlin is a long-established professional journalist. Poller's article is an opinion piece, not a report - it's Poller's personal view of the issue. O'Loughlin's piece is a conventional news report published in a mainstream newspaper. Poller passes judgment on what she sees ("clearly faked evacuation") rather than just reporting it neutrally as O'Loughlin does. What I don't want to do in this section of the article is pass judgment on anything - simply to report neutrally what people said, saw and filmed on that day and immediately afterwards. Poller appears to be a strong proponent of the conspiracy theory; I've found a number of articles by her, arguing forcefully for the conspiracy scenario. Her views may well be relevant to the section of the article that covers the conspiracy theory (I'll have to have a think about how to work them in) but they're anachronistic for the "as initially reported" section, as nobody had advanced the conspiracy theory at this stage. -- ChrisO (talk) 10:18, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy does not allow for exclusion of sources based on “content” or “nature” that you don’t like. Nor does wikipedia policy require that sources be only professional journalists. It requires verifyability, and reliability – and Commentary meets both. Commentary is a reliable source, and can be used everywhere the Age is used. Poller’s piece is not an OpEd – it is a magazine article written for Commentary, which analyzes the court case, and the related video evidence – exactly as the Age piece, which is not ‘news’ – but a non-contemporary analysis by O’Loughlin of video footage and other evidence as it relates to a court case. As part of her analysis, Poller passes judgment on what she sees (calling the evacuation “fake”) – as does O’Loughlin on what he sees (calling Rahma’s cover ‘dubious’, describing the footage as ‘harrowing’). The only difference I can see is that O’Loughlin’s evaluation dovetails with your own, whereas Poller’s does not. This is a double standard, which is not acceptable. It is interesting that you would attempt to exclude Poller from this section based on your personal evaluation of her motives or her ideology, yet reject in the strongest terms those who try to do the same for O’Laughlin. The bottom line is this: If the Age piece, written in 2007 by a journalist criticized as having an anti-Israeli agenda can go in since it meets relevant WP policy, so can the Commentary piece, written in 2005 by an author who ChrisO criticizes as a being a supporter of conspiracy theories.Canadian Monkey (talk) 15:37, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Let's find a compromise on this. As I've said below, I'm trying to present a straightforward description of what was recorded, seen and said at the time of the incident, without passing judgment on it. O'Loughlin and Poller both describe the footage and both use some statements of personal opinion ("dubious", "harrowing" for O'Loughlin, "clearly faked" for Poller), though it has to be said that Poller's piece is more obviously polemical. Personal opinions written five or seven years after the incident clearly aren't relevant to "as originally reported", particularly so in Poller's case since absolutely nobody was claiming fakery at the time. So let's simply do what I've just done in the article: presented their statements of fact about what they say the footage shows, but without any statements of opinion about what they say the footage means. -- ChrisO (talk) 16:56, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I disagree that Poller's piece is more polemical, but my evaluation or yours are not relevant. If we are going to include The Age's 7 year old description of the tape, there's no reason not to include Commentary's 5 year old description of the same - especially since the latter clearly indicates what footage is being described (Reuters), whereas the former refers to and unidentified 'spliced-up' tape made up of different sources. Here's an alternative compromise I'm happy to go accept: Since the section is "as originally reported" - let remove ALL non-contemporary sources - Poller, O'Loughlin, Psenny's 2004 Le Monde article, etc... - and leave just those sources dated September-October 2000. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:07, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Nope. As I've said below, O'Loughlin clearly states the provenance of the footage he saw, so your premise there is wrong. The bottom line is that we're not going to include anachronistic personal opinions from either side in this section. -- ChrisO (talk) 17:11, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, no. If we allow anachronistic evaluations of the video material such as the Age article from 2007, in a section labeled "The incident as initially reported", we are going to allow all anachronistic evaluations of the video material, from any and all reliable sources, including Commentary, and you don't get to cherry-pick which parts of the material which comes from a reliable source are included, and which are excluded, based on your personal preference. Canadian Monkey (talk) 00:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

No, that's a thoroughly tendentious approach. "As initially reported" must necessarily include "as initially filmed". Factual descriptions of what was filmed are appropriate to that rubric. The France 2 footage was not the only footage shot that day, so the other footage needs to be described as well - it would be inaccurate and misleading to suggest that the France 2 footage was the only contemporary footage of the incident. A factual description of the footage is appropriate, as it describes what people saw on the day. Opinions of the meaning of what was filmed is not, because that's not a contemporaneous viewpoint. Thus I have no objection to citing Poller's factual description of the video, but we cannot include her opinion on the meaning of that footage in that section because it wasn't a contemporaneous viewpoint. As I've said before, Poller's opinions may be relevant later in the article, but certainly not in an "as initially reported" section. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Enough with conspiracy theorists and activists please! We are not talking personal views here but support for specific facts in this article. Tundrabuggy (talk) 13:55, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Not so. This has nothing to do with a Hollywood blacklist. Please do not throw up red herrings or make personal representations. I have not seen the Reuter's tape so I have no idea what was on it and neither agree nor disagree. I do know that other people, some who are principals in this argument (ie Landes [8] ) as well as others who are not principals( eg Australian MP Michael Danby [9]) and Australian Jewish News journalist Tzi Fleisher [10]have accused O'Loughlin of "Significant misrepresentation," "systematic bias against Israel" and of "half-truths, distortions, and obfuscation and omission of inconvenient facts – that have made his journalism so problematic." It isn't as if there has been no substantial errors or even misrepresentations by the media in this case. In fact, that is at the very heart of this issue. So rather than accusing the messenger of bias and error, why not simply find someone else who can substantiate O'Loughlin's testimony? Tundrabuggy (talk) 00:39, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Because there's no need to. O'Loughlin's testimony meets all the requirements of WP:RS, and no amount of WP:IDONTLIKEITs will change that. Be careful with what you're demanding, by the way: there's a great deal of conspiracy theory material in the article that's single-sourced. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

O'Loughlin may be "a professional journalist writing for a mainstream quality newspaper," but there is a problem with that. Consider what MP Darby wrote about O'Louglin and The Age when he gave up his subscription.

In 2005, Australia/Israel & Jewish Affairs Council media analyst Tzvi Fleischer reported that when members of the Jewish community made a complaint to the Australian Press Council about O'Loughlin's reporting, a senior Fairfax editor responded that The Age had not published any letters critical of O'Loughlin because it "does not allow its letters page to be used to impugn the 'professionalism of their journalists". If there's anything worse than a biased, lazy and intemperate reporter, it's a newspaper management shich shields him from criticism and continues to publish his one-sided reports.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Tundrabuggy (talk • contribs) 01:44, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

So an Australian MP doesn't like O'Loughlin - so what? Look, this line of argument is pointless: we have a well-established reliable sourcing policy, under which O'Loughlin clearly and indisputably qualifies as a reliable source, and we do not write off professional mainstream journalists just because a handful of activists doesn't like their reporting on a particular issue. That has always been the policy and it will continue to be the policy for the foreseeable future. If you don't believe me, try the reliable sources noticeboard - I guarantee that you will get the same response. -- ChrisO (talk) 10:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

So what you have here is a page under mediation and an incident in court because there may have been media dishonesty and bias involved. So you put up a reporter accused of bias as a sole source for important information, and when that is challenged, rather than simply find another reliable source to support his facts, you blow it off as unimportant. It is just this sort of one-sided insistence on one version of the facts that has led to this mediation, and will lead to many more -- and the kind of sourcing that does nothing for Wiki's reputation for NPOV and reliability. Tundrabuggy (talk) 13:18, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Why not, as suggested, take it to the noticeboard? This suggestion that there should be an "approved" and "unapproved" list for mainstream journalists, and furthermore that their presence on either list should be determined by how favourable their reporting is to a particular country, is mildly disturbing. Especially when it comes from someone complaining about supposed NPOV issues. --Nickhh (talk) 13:32, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

This is a false argument. We are talking about Israel here, not Antarctica.Tundrabuggy (talk) 14:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand this point. What makes Israel special or different in this respect, and how would that make my argument "false"? --Nickhh (talk) 14:14, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm dismissing it because our sourcing policies aren't subject to ideological tests. Neither you nor anyone else gets to veto sources because you don't like their point of view. That's all there is to it; if you don't like that policy, you're welcome to go somewhere with lower standards; try Conservapedia, perhaps? -- ChrisO (talk) 13:51, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Backing up again, this is what O'Loughlin says about the tape which is used to assert facts in this article.

But there is another edited tape, splicing together footage shot on the day by France 2 and other Western agencies, that depicts the surreal combination of ritual violence and lethal force, of stones and bullets, which has become all too common in Gaza in the years since then.

What tape? The article doesn't say it was a Reuters tape. It says it is spliced footage from unidentified sources and proceeds to interpret it for us. Unidentified spliced footage? Perhaps it is the same footage put together by the Palestinians a couple of days later in which some unidentified person spliced in the image of an Israeli soldier that was not in the original film? This has nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with standards of reportage. Tundrabuggy (talk) 14:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, it's not "unidentified" - reread what O'Loughlin says. He says very clearly that it was "shot on the day by France 2 and other Western agencies". -- ChrisO (talk) 17:02, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

He does not identify those "other Western agencies". Is it AP ? Reuters? We don't know. He does not say who made this "spliced-up" tape available nor where one can see it - it is an anonymous source whose validity cannot be verified.. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:12, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

That's irrelevant. We don't need to verify the sources of our sources - policy specifically discourages us from attempting to do so. As the very first line of WP:V says, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth — that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true." -- ChrisO (talk)

That is all well and good, but we still want to give the reader the most reliable and verifiable information that we can. Tundrabuggy (talk) 19:15, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Of course, but that doesn't extend to trying to verify sources of sources. We simply don't do that - never have, never will, never should. Our verification policy extends only to the sources that we quote, not the sources of our sources. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:34, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

We are not trying to verify sources of sources, but when O'Loughlin himself describes his source as a 'spliced-up' compilation from multiple sources, there's no reason why we can't say this in the article. Canadian Monkey (talk) 00:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Background

ChrisO has re-written the entire background section to appear that Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount was the precipitating cause of the Intifada, another subject and another controversy (see: Ain, Stewart The Jewish Week 12-22-2000 PA: Intifada Was Planned; Palestinians now acknowledge what Israel has been saying, that renewed violence was orchestrated for political purposes. ) and to expound upon Palestinian casualties. I therefore added this [11] at the beginning of the section: 'According to the Israeli government, the violence preceding the al-Durrah incident had been building for some few weeks. "The attacks began with the throwing of stones and Molotov cocktails in the vicinity of the Netzarim Junction on 13 September. This was followed by the killing of an Israeli soldier by a roadside bomb on 27 September, and the murder of an Israeli police officer by a Palestinian policeman in a joint patrol on 29 September."' sourced to: Letter dated 2 October 2000 to addressed to the Secretary-General of the UN 55th Session Agenda Item 40 The situation in the Middle East Because this letter discusses the "wave of violence in the preceding weeks" -- it was appropriate to place it in advance of the Sharon visit. ChrisO moved this down to the bottom of the third paragraph, in an obvious attempt to marginalize it. Further, I do not see what light is thrown on the al-Durrah incident by a long list of casualties on this day or that. But if we are going to include background that includes a laundry list of Palestinian casualties, let's start a few week earlier and acknowledge what Israel called a "wave of violence" initiated by the Palestinians that preceded the Temple Mount visit, and not bury it at the bottom. I am not sure however, what purpose is served by including more controversial material in an already controversial article. Tundrabuggy (talk) 21:20, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I can't say I'm particularly familiar with the controversy you mention, and you're wrong to claim some sort of ulterior motive ("bury at the bottom", etc). I've said nothing about what was "the precipitating cause of the Intifada", so I think you might be reading more into the article than is actually there. All I've done is to provide a snapshot of the events leading directly up to September 30th - the Temple Mount visit on the 28th was followed by the rioting and deaths on the 29th, and the general strike and demonstrations on the 30th were called at least ostensibly to protest at the events of the previous two days. As far as this article is concerned, the ultimate causes of the violence aren't really relevant - that's another debate entirely.

The letter to the UN was a good find on your part and I agree that it's relevant. I've moved it to the section on Netzarim because it helps to support the previous statement that the settlement was the scene of previous frequent confrontations. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:32, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I noticed that you added the line: " Major General Yom Tov Samia, head of the Southern Command, called the situation an emergency, saying the 18 soldiers there were trapped by approximately 5000 rioting Palestinians. "They lobbed 300 grenades, shot thousands of rounds of ammo." I've removed this, as it actually refers to the events of October 1st, not September 30th, as the previous line in the article makes clear: "Spin control problems aside, Samia says that after the Al-Dura shooting, he was confronted with an emergency situation at the junction." The sources do describe a major riot at the junction on October 1st, following the shooting - see for instance this BBC story. According to Reuters, only "hundreds" were involved in the previous day's violence, which was far less intense. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:59, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Change in structure - Israeli Investigations

Just running this by. I believe this whole article would read better and be more understandable if "Israeli Investigations" was changed to "Investigations" under which each investigation would have its own sub-section. That way the later section regarding the controversies would make more sense. Tundrabuggy (talk) 11:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Nahum Shahaf

There is a contest going on over Nahum Shahaf's qualifications. One reporter O'Loughlin [discussed above](presumably a reliable one) insists that he had "no qualifications in ballistics or forensics." {[12] The original reference to this was this one [13] which said "Did ballistics experts take part in the tests? Shahaf concedes he is no authority on ballistics - however, he says, "as a physicist I read scientific material, both theoretical and experimental, and try to consult with several experts in this area, and so I have basically finished all the stages necessary in learning this topic." So the only reporter that says they have "no qualifications" is O'Loughlin. However, this bio [14] says this of him

As an Elcint employee he helped develop CT technology. From 1981, he was a leader in developing unmanned Israeli aircraft at Tadiran heading the unit-charged with formulating strategy in the area of visual intelligence. In 1989, he moved to Israel Aircraft Industries to develop helicopter missile technologies. He also studied the limitations of the civilian (nylon sheets system) defense arrangement against non-conventional ground to ground missiles and lectured on this subject in the army and at universities. The limitations of this system led the army to develop the 'mamad' system of especially designated protected areas.

In 1991, he set up the Natuf Company, developed a system to compress video material and was awarded a Science Ministry prize for this accomplishment. He also invented a see-through (walls) system for defense against ballistic attacks.

He founded the New Zionist Forum within whose framework the 'Ometz' movement to combat institutional corruption was created (by Arieh Avneri). He also led the fight in Ramat Gan and Givatayim to dismantle a cellular antenna (which was duly removed). He also developed a system to protect buildings from cellular antenna radiation (patent pending).

How can we possibly accept this idea of "no qualifications " with a straight face -- just because it was apparently reported in a "reliable source?" I have other sources also recording his inventions in the area of ballistics . Additionally, why should this business about Shahaf & Doriel's involvement with the Rabin assassination be included in this article on al-Durrah? Either this report holds water or it doesn't. Under what circumstances Doriel met Sharaf or what their outside interests are do not reflect on this report in the least. It should be struck as the intention is only to discredit the investigation by discrediting those who did it. Tundrabuggy (talk) 22:30, 23 July 2008 (UTC)