Talk:Homeopathy

Please read before starting First of all, welcome to Wikipedia's homeopathy article. This article represents the work of many contributors and much negotiation to find consensus for an accurate and complete representation of the topic. Newcomers to Wikipedia and this article may find that it's easy to commit a faux pas. That's OK — everybody does it! You'll find a list of a few common ones you might try to avoid here. A common objection made by newly arriving editors is that this article presents homeopathy from a non-neutral point of view, and that the extensive criticism of homeopathy violates Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy (WP:NPOV). The sections of the WP:NPOV that apply directly to this article are: NPOV: Pseudoscience NPOV: Undue weight NPOV: Making necessary assumptions NPOV: Giving "equal validity" The contributors to the article continually strive to adhere to these to the letter. Also, splitting the article into sub-articles is governed by the Content forking guidelines. These policies have guided the shape and content of the article, and new arrivals are strongly encouraged to become familiar with them prior to raising objections on this page or adding content to the article. Other important policies guiding the article's content are No Original Research (WP:NOR) and Cite Your Sources (WP:CITE). Some common points of argument are addressed at Wikipedia's Homeopathy FAQ. Tempers can and have flared here. All contributors are asked to please respect Wikipedia's policy No Personal Attacks (WP:NPA) and to abide by consensus (WP:CON). This talk page is to discuss the text, photographs, format, grammar, etc of the article itself and not the inherent worth of homeopathy. See WP:NOT. If you wish to discuss or debate the validity of homeopathy or promote homeopathy please do so at google groups or other fora. This "Discussion" page is only for discussion on how to improve the Wikipedia article. Any attempts at trolling, using this page as a soapbox, or making personal attacks may be deleted at any time.

neutrality of tone

mention of scientific opinion could be much more concise, limited to a few well-phrased sentences.

bias is not merely a matter of whether statements can be backed with references - it is also a question of tone, rhetorical structure, and emphasis.

--Jethrobrice (talk) 16:28, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree, and i have made the necesary modificaitons to the text to reflect the consensus that we and I have reached. Smith Jones (talk) 17:02, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

For the future, Smith Jones, you would be well-advised not to claim a 'consensus' has been established based on your agreement with one other editor's half-hour-old comment. That said, the very minor changes that you've made under the banner of that 'consensus' seems innocuous: [1]. ('Contend' and 'maintain' both implicitly acknowledge that homeopathic principles are not universally accepted.)

I hope that you don't choose to strip out the detailed scientific discussion of homeopathy from the article as Jethrobrice suggests. There is ample discussion – dare I say 'consensus'? – in the archives of this talk page to see that such a change is unsupportable. Homeopathy wishes to be recognized as a legitimate science and genuine branch of medicine—it is both fair and appropriate that Wikipedia include a reasonable discussion about what science medicine have to say of homeopathy. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:38, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with TenOfAllTrades, and would refer the reader to my answer in the thread above. Verbal chat 17:46, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey hold on ther e Sindney. I never asaid that I wanted to strip off the scienfitific discussion; I agre that it should remian in place as an integral part of the Homoapthy article. I only said that the word "contend" was used too often. I counted SEVEN uses in the lead and the opening paragrapsh alone, and I find that it WP:MOS was getting repetitive. I changed it to maintain not to alter the meaning (I know that the mean rouglhyl the same thing) but to create variety and to make this article more interesting to read.

The way it was was good, and I am not criticizing all of the hard work that people who hav eplaced into this article have done, but that in our effort to avoid any even minor disagreement we have made this article a bit dry and boring to read. By creating verbal variety, it might be making this article a little bit more engaging and less repetitive.

If you want to revert my edit and vangate our consensus, then go ahead; I will not object or change it bakc. I was only attempting to make a few cosmetic changes and I am sorry if i cause d offense. Smith Jones (talk) 18:04, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Er, 'vangate'? In any event, you seemed to be agreeing with Jethrobrice's statements in two separate sections on this talk page (albeit with the same comment in both). This thread deals with a proposal to reduce the section on scientific consensus to "a few well-phrased sentences"; the thread above this one deals with a change of word (from 'contend' to 'maintain'). Did you inadvertently copy your comment into both sections? That may be where the confusion arises.... TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

that is improbable but I will conceed that it might have occured in the fashion that you described. if the story that you are telling me turns out to be true, I will of course oppose any such move. Paring down the scientific consensus serves only to create bias and will delegitimize homepathy by making it seem as if scientific controversy does not exceed regarding this subject.

I oppose any such manoevers on the part of any article editor since all it does is reduce the weight that scientific discussion re: Homeopathy exists on the scientific literature, wihch is a debate that we have gone through literally thousands of times if you will look at this archive. This seems obvious and I am surprised that i have to go through this twice.

In regards to consensus; i was not aware that it was okay to break consensus and make sweeping edits like the one being proposed. I have read all the rules but it doesnt work. Smith Jones (talk) 18:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

(← unindenting) Smith Jones, I don't think I understand what you're saying. If you scroll up to the top of this section (just under where it says neutrality of tone) you'll see a comment by Jethrobrice where he says that discussion of science in relation to homeopathy should be pared down to "a few well-phrased sentences".

Immediately below that, you'll find the comment that you wrote and signed (diff) where you apparently agreed with Jethrobrice's position, and you indicated an intention to go ahead an edit the article based on the two-person 'consensus' so established.

It seems from your more recent remarks here that you don't agree with that comment by Jethrobrice, and that you only inadvertently made your comment here in this thread. (Either way, you should be more cautious in claiming a 'consensus' in this way—two people and a half-hour of discussion don't generally serve to establish a consensus, particularly on a high-traffic, high-controversy article.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:27, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict with ToAT) Smith Jones, I think you've got a bit muddled here. Maybe you want to strike out your first comment in this section if you disagree now with it, and added it by accident. I also don't follow your logic above, but I think I agree with you. Obviously, changing the article against consensus isn't allowed except (one hopes) in extreme cases. Per my comment in the thread above, I'm against any removal of the scientific analysis without good reason. "Neutrality of tone" seems to be a new method to try to change the balance to favour a particular bias, neutral or not. Verbal chat 18:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe youre right. I will WP:AGF and trust your judgment re: this matter, but personally I dont feel that this article reamins as volatile and dangerous as it once was, and the fact of the matter is that the other edit that I made was only an extremely minor comsetic edit that I am not that attached to you said it was. You are right that I might have misposted the comment twice, in that case you can disregard this descussion and I will go back and strike through the inappropriately placed comment. I DO NOT agree with Jechothmann's second comment, only his first on re: contend v. maintain. That are all. Smith Jones (talk) 18:34, 2 August 2008 (UTC) (fixed by Verbal chat)

• I agree with Jethrobrice's point which has been also been made previously by many other editors. The article still has a tendenditious tone which is inappropriate here and is not NPOV. I have reverted removal of the POV tag accordingly. Colonel Warden (talk) 13:23, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Start a new section with documenting your concerns, with specificity. The issues brought up here have not reached a consensus. I will ask you to revert he placing of the tag until you have done so. Please place any new comments in a new topic as this one has strayed very far off topic. Note that disruption includes the constant tagging of articles and stonewalling of progress. There has been plenty of time to develop points, and since the article is now stable the tag should be removed unless you or others give reasons, with specificity, why it should remain. Otherwise the points can never be addressed. Verbal chat 14:45, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

• We had at least one previous section of this sort which has scrolled off into the archives without being resolved. Now we have another section here of a similar sort. I have briefly reviewed the article to see if adequate improvements have been made and they have not. Since multiple editors object to the article's tone, the tag stays until resolved. I shall perhaps add further tags to indicate specific areas of concern but dislike excessive tagging. More anon. Colonel Warden (talk) 14:57, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

It would be better to tag with specificity, then we can fix it. There are verification tags, check tags, disputed and bias tags that can all go inline and show exactly where the problem is. There is even a not supported by source tag. If a subsection is a problem, tag that as a whole and provide a justification. That would be much more useful than tagging the whole article and saying that there is a tone issue. So I would encourage you, and others, to go through and tag bits they feel don't meet policy, rather than leave the article as it is now. However, I also don't like excessive tagging so, for example, tag paragraphs or sections rather than every sentence in the paragraph or section. Let's fix this article! Verbal chat 12:30, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Quackery in the lead

Resolved

Several people, mostly homeopaths, have commented that they don't like the word quackery appearing in the lead. Now I agree that it should be included in the article, as it's verifiable, a common opinion, and from a reliable source. However, for the lead I feel that the term pseudoscience is enough. I would suggest keeping the sentence in the lead up to the semicolon (replaced with a full stop), and integrating the remainder into the body of the article. Perhaps into the "Research on medical effectiveness" section or the 20th century section. This is something I've suggested before but which has been overtaken (usually) by discussions as to whether homeopathy works, so please lets keep his on topic: quackery removed from the lead, put somewhere else. Verbal chat 15:46, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Quackery means charlatanism etc. as opposed to well meaning but (in all probability) misguided practices in the name of medicine. Both fall under the topic of the article, but to get into that distinction so high up seems less than ideal. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 16:26, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. Wikipedia also defines quackery as "unscientific medical practices," according to the lead in Quackery. Hiding this significant point down the page because some people don't like it -- some with vested interests -- would not be in keeping with policy which says the lead is "..... a short, independent summary of the important aspects of the article's topic." An important aspect of homeopathy is that it is widely considered to be quackery. Even Verbal, who started this section, says homeopathy being quackery is "verifiable, a common opinion, and from a reliable source". Consider the following. Would you drop the words "would violate the first and/or second laws of thermodynamics" from the lead of Water-fuelled car, or (it) "is a scientifically refuted speculation" from the lead of Water memory, or (it) "directly contradicts many principles of modern physics, chemistry, and biology" from the lead of Therapeutic touch ? . Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 01:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

My point isn't to hide it, but currently quackery isn't mentioned elsewhere in the article - I should have said this in my summary above. Pseudoscience seems to be enough of a summary for the lead. I wouldn't support dropping those terms from the other articles. Establishing consensus on whether it should be in the lead or "just" the article body is the goal here. Maybe this should be an RFC. Verbal chat 06:20, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

You seem intent on trying to bypass Wikipedia policy. You give two reasons, because homeopaths don't like an accurate description appearing in the lead, and you think the word pseudoscience seems to be enough of a summary. You totally ignored what I just wrote above, that one Wikipedia definition of quackery is "unscientific medical practices." By substituting pseudoscience for quackery the article would no longer be informing readers that homeopathy is an unscientific medical practice. Censorship. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 09:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I think there is a bit of confusion here - I've tried to explain myself on your talk page. I really do not condone censorship in any form. Verbal chat 10:25, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The term unscientific is more NPOV than either pseudoscience or quackery since it is less pejorative while communicating the point. See WP:AVOID: Such terms often convey to readers an implied viewpoint—that of the "outsider looking in and labelling as they see it". The fact that a term is accepted "outside" but not "inside" is a good indicator that it is pejorative or inflammatory in nature.. Colonel Warden (talk) 09:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Removing the term pseudoscience is not the topic of this section, and consensus on pseudoscience appearing in the lead has been clearly established and is in line with wikipedia policies as mentioned above by Kaiwhakahaere. Verbal chat 10:20, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The general problem here is the use of polemical language. This is not good NPOV style. User:Kaiwhakahaere wishes to communicate that homeopathy is thought to be an unscientific medical practice. I find these words to be acceptable and preferable to other terms which are known to be pejorative. We should not seek to use derogatory language when more NPOV alternatives are available - this is the clear guidance of WP:AVOID. Colonel Warden (talk) 11:16, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

If they article said "homeopathy is quackery", then you would be correct. However, the article words it as "...regarded as..." which is perfectly true and neutral, with appropriate cites to reference which demonstrably regard homeopathy as such. Jefffire (talk) 12:23, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Jefffire - there is nothing wrong (against policy) with any of these terms appearing in the lead. Pseudoscience should definitely stay. Verbal chat 12:31, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

(Undent)As an outsider just watching, my opinion from reading the lead is that it is appropriate in the lead for both terms to be there as written. I do think that the terms should be followed up into the main article. This is just an outsiders opinion of the comments being made. --CrohnieGal^Talk 12:40, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with saying "pseudoscience or quackery" in the lead as long as both terms are duly referenced. This doesn't prejudice whether most practicioners are fraudulent or just ignorant (as in Hanlon's razor), it simply means that the treatments have no verifiable effect. --dab (𒁳) 13:09, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I support Verbal's suggestion to chop the sentence at the semicolon. Besides the tendentiousness of "quackery", there is another issue, the phrase "placebo therapy at best and quackery at worst". Homeopathy is placebo therapy; how could it be worse? Looie496 (talk) 16:49, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

There are some homeopaths who encourage their patients to avoid evidence-based treatments in favor of their homeopathic treatments. This is worse than placebo therapy in some ways. At least, that's what I gather from the source. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:52, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I can think of quite a few who are anti-vaccination, for example. Brunton (talk) 17:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Looie, according to your logic, there is no quackery, since all quackery (provided it doesn't outright poison you) will qualify as "placebo therapy" automatically. I really don't see the problem. Yes, "quackery" is "tendentious" -- but since it happens to be the actual tendency of academic mainstream, Wikipedia is positively required to follow suit. Failure to be tendentious in cases such as this would in fact violate the NPOV policy. --dab (𒁳) 09:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

So would someone like to add the quackery term and references to a suitable place in the text, as I don't want to edit regarding this as the originator of the thread. Note: I think at the current time that it should be mentioned in the body, and teh lead left as it is until further input is made for a good consensus. Verbal chat 09:41, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Presumably it should go near the start of the "Medical and scientific analysis" section. Brunton (talk) 15:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Please go ahead. Verbal chat 09:44, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I've added it (basically just copied and pasted from the lead - references may need tidying up). Now that it's included in the body of the article, perhaps it would be appropriate to remove the passage "or, in the words of a 1998 medical review, "placebo therapy at best and quackery at worst."" from the lead? Brunton (talk) 12:09, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Thanks. Verbal chat 14:04, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I may be ariving late for the dance, but can not help addding my two cents. In the absence of notable, verifiable sources stating that "homeopathy is quackery", or "homeopathy is pseudoscience", then the article would have to avoid these pejoritive terms and go with more neutral terminology to describe the lack of scientific validation. If notable, verifiable sources that use pejoritive language are to be used, the authorship of these sources should always be included in the main text of the article to avoid the appearance that the article itself if calling homeopathy "quackery" or pseudoscience". Writing that "homeopathy has been labeled as pseudoscience" is not the best form. It is better to write : "Acording to Dr So-and-so of the instituite of such-and-such, homeopathy is a pseudoscience". This accomplishes three things: it lets Dr So-and-so take the fall for using the pejorative term. It also lets the reader of the article judge the notability for herself. Finally, it also makes it clear that this is the opinion or assesment of Dr So-and-so and maintains neutrality in the article itself.

Verbal is accurately trying to portray the magnitude of the opposition to homeopathy. If there are notables out there who say that 'homeopathy is unimpresive or unscientific' then that is one thing. If there are notables out there who say that 'homeopathy is outrageous, dangerous quackery' then the article needs to share that with the reader. The facts are that homeopathy has been met with such a hostile tone. It is the duty of the article to report this hostile tone in a neutral way. The most neutral way to do this is to clearly attribute such comments to their original authors. Naturstud (talk) 17:38, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

:Naturstud has a good point. Phrasing and wording can be tricky, but it can be done. Rather than using perjorative terms (unless there are good papers to support their use and the context is similar) then wording such as 'homeopathy currently does not enjoy the support of mainstream science or medicine' or 'Homeopathy is still considered experimental with a lack of evidence to support it's efficacy in treating X or Y". If there's studies investigating it then the end could suggest "studies are ongoing to determine the benefits, if any, of X for Y". Soyuz113 (talk) 18:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC) ^{(Edits of indef blocked user stricken.)}

User:Soyuz113 above is a probable sock of indef-blocked User:CorticoSpinal, see sockpuppet case --Enric Naval (talk) 17:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Soyuz113 has "been blocked indefinitely from editing in accordance with Wikipedia's blocking policy for sockpuppetry, edit warring, disruption and block evasion." I have stricken his remarks, as striking or removal is customary in such situations. -- Fyslee / talk 06:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not make future predictions, per WP:CRYSTAL. Try some other formulation. BTW, it's spelled p-e-j-o-r-a-t-i-v-e. Skinwalker (talk) 19:17, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The article says that homoeopathy is regarded as pseudoscience or quackery, and cites RS supporting that. Brunton (talk) 00:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

• Actually my point was that it is not enough for the article to vaguely assert that "homeopathy is regarded as quackery" with a footnote but rather that a direct quote should be employed "Dr K. Joy describes homeopathy as 'quackery of the worst kind'". Direct quotes from notables are the best way of delivering pejorative characterizations. The best criticism on wiki, as in life, is specific criticism. Naturstud (talk) 14:19, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

That's particular attribution - an attempt to lessen the impact of a majority view by treating it as if it was held by only one proponent. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 17:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

• Only if the hostile tone ('quackery') can be sourced as belonging to the majority. I have no use for homeopathy, and would suggest that the majority of my colleages are unimpressed by it. It is something else to claim that the majority of them are hostile towards it. I think the article can make the case that homeopathy is rejected by the majority of health care providers, but probably can not make the case that the majority of health care providers would resort to name calling/are outraged or hostile. Naturstud (talk) 15:47, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

• In an environment where speaking the truth reverses the legal burden of proof, calling a quack a quack is simply a way to lose your shirt to lawyers working on spec. It's tough to prove the quack knows he's a quack. Hence few primary sources are completely unequivocal. It takes considerable courage.LeadSongDog (talk) 18:19, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

• While this is taking us off-topic, in the USA you can call anyone a quack with impunity. Courts have made rulings on that matter and they don't take such things as being serious enough to violate a citizen's right to freedom of speech. Stephen Barrett, who is a highly recognized champion against health fraud and quackery, has been accused of being a quack many times by real quacks and their henchmen, and he can't do anything about it. They are protected by the law, and he is protected by the same law if and when (very rare) he calls them quacks. BTW, he doesn't normally ever do that. It is also not a requirement (or even reality) that a quack is conscious of any wrongdoing or of being a quack. Most quacks are likely truly believers in their ideas and methods. That doesn't relieve them from the obligation to refrain from making false claims, and from heeding warnings from scientists, scientific skeptics, authorities, etc.. They can and are still prosecuted for breaking laws against practicing medicine without a license and against false advertising. -- Fyslee / talk 04:02, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

←Both quackery and pseudoscience are well sourced, and consensus on them being in the article has been established. No policy is broken by these terms appearing in the way they do now. The subject of this discussion was to assess whether quackery should remain in the lead, or only appear in the article, and this discussion has lead to some improvement to the article. If you want to bring up new discussions, please do so in a new thread and check that they haven't recently been discussed in the archive. I'm trying to keep this discussion on topic and it's drifted off somewhat. Thanks. Verbal chat 16:01, September 9, 2008 (UTC)

I agree. If no rules are broken, then end of discussion. If "quackery" isn't mentioned in the body of the article, then do it and let's get on. Problem solved. -- Fyslee / talk 04:02, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I've marked this as resolved as the points now appear in the body and there is no consensus for change at this time. Verbal chat 12:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Meatpuppetry

A major objector to that wording has been evading his indef ban and contacting editors. If anyone has been contacted by an IP from Karnataka, Bangalore, India, don't cooperate with this indef banned user or you may be blocked for meatpuppetry.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Suspected_Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Dr.Jhingaadey.

-- Fyslee / talk 04:02, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the warning

Thank youf or warnign us Smith Jones (talk) 18:59, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

POV tag

As there has been no activity again for a while, and as the article has been tagged in places where users feel citations are needed, I feel it is time to remove the POV tag from the article. If you feel there are still problems please tag individual sections or use the fact/check tags, etc, or start a new discussion on specific concerns below. Thanks Verbal chat 09:47, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I have been absent for a while, so I it will take some time for me to evaluate the current state of the article. Let me just say that I would be quite surprised if the tag no longer applied, and I am not sure that the problems can be localised in this way to individual sections. If there is a consensus among the other editors to remove the tag, that's fine with me as long as this doesn't create a prejudice against my reinstating it after I have finished reading the article. Of course, I would like to be surprised. --Hans Adler (talk) 10:21, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

The problem is we have people saying no the tag must stay for many reason, but then not saying what those reasons are - or being so vague that nothing can be done. If you have new or unaddressed concerns, please add them here or start a new section so they can be fixed. Note that the lead has been extensively discussed, so I feel that individual sections should be tagged rather than the whole article. Good to have you back. I remember you mentioned a bad reference, but I couldn't find it at the time - maybe that still needs fixing. Verbal chat 10:30, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I start rereading the article to see if it has improved and soon find that it hasn't. The second sentence, for example: Homeopathic practitioners maintain that an ill person can be treated using a substance that can produce, in a healthy person, symptoms similar to those of the illness.. A more neutral formulation might be Hahnemann's theory was that.... I expect that there is much more such deweaseling to be done but I'm not able to wade through the article now. Colonel Warden (talk) 11:09, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with that change, but I don't think the current version is inappropriately worded. It hardly justifies the tag. Verbal chat 11:18, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

It is an illustrative example. My general position is that the article has a tendentious tone which is not NPOV. As another simple example, we have a sentence soon after which has three citations. This is poor style and also adds to the tone by suggesting that the point needs hammering into the article. See Sun Tzu for a contrasting style which is perhaps our ideal. Note the restrained use of citations even though there is a "vigorous debate" upon some aspects of the topic. The stylistic effect is more detached and unemotional. Colonel Warden (talk) 11:47, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

The reason there are three citations is because of the consensus formed on this page that they were required, however I also have no problem in commenting two out and moving them to the body. If there is a tendentious tone please state exactly which parts you are unhappy with. There are also tone tags, rather than POV tags. So far the tag has not been justified. Verbal chat 11:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Verbal, thanks for moving things in a very good direction (the middle). One thing that I still don't like in the lede is the quackery sentence. It seems to have a much better reference now than it used to (i.e. the absurd Nigerian article; I suspect nobody ever read more than the abstract, and it looked very dubious). Still I think a sentence of the form "[Convincing reason] has caused [subject] to be regarded as [invective]" is not NPOV. It doesn't just report the name-calling; in my eyes it embraces it. (Compare: "His remarkably disastrous impact on world history and the domestic economy has caused George W. Bush to be called a moron".) I don't want to start yet another fight over this sentence, but if you remove the global NPOV tag this sentence should be flagged. More if and when I get the time to reread the article. --Hans Adler (talk) 16:04, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Without commenting on the tag, I agree the quackery mention in the lede is not a good choice. While that notion should be prudently fleshed out elsewhere in the article, let's remember that in addition to bunk, it also has a connotation of fraud. While clearly fraudulent use of HP happens, leaving that connotation in the lede suggests it is essentially synonymous with fraud, which is certainly not the case. Clarifying that nuance would be too much for the lede, so I strongly suggest dropping it from the lede. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 16:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

The article is moving towards neutrality, but is not there yet. Neutrality could be increased by use of direct attribution within the text whenever we are reporting opinion, especially controverisal ones. I have tried to raise this issue before. Anyone who says that homeopathy is 'quackery' is expressing a POV. I am fine with the article presenting such POVs if they are notable. I just think that our best NPOV interest is served by directly sourcing such POVs in the main text:

• Dr Notable has said that "homeopathy is quackery". reads as much more neutral that the current:
• ...have caused homeopathy to be regarded as pseudoscience[14] or quackery.[15]

What we need are good solid quotes like "Homeopathy is a form of pseudoscience". The references [14] and [15] are actually rather weak. One of them is a second hand report (author unknown) stating that the committee for skeptical inquiry considers homeopathy to be a pseudoscience. The other is a link to an abstract written by an economist I guarantee you have never heard of...and he doesn't even come right out and say 'homeopathy is quackery'. The neutrality of this article will depend on the sourcing of direct quotes from notable entities. The more POV and controverisal the original quote, the more effort required by us to make it clear that this is a specific person's or group's POV, not ours. As it exists, we have some fudgy references standing behind two loaded POV terms. The pseudoscience/quackery line as it is written could be understood to mean: "Some people, many people, most people or two people regard homeopathy to be quackery/pseudoscience". The key to neutrality is clarity. The key to delivering criticism is to be specific. Naturstud (talk) 17:31, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

The mention of quackery in the lead was discussed above. Feel free to add to that discussion but for now I think that matter is closed. Maybe come back in a month or two with a proposal to change that section and see what happens (or a request for comment). To Naturestud, the claims are properly sourced and specific attribution in this case is misleading. Hans, thanks for the compliment and maybe we could work on a new wording along those lines - although it already seems to follow your example. Verbal chat 17:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify: I said it's not NPOV, i.e. it's not neutral point of view. As the Bush example shows, not attributing the invective to anyone in particular and simultaneously explaining the reasons for its use is an underhanded way of making it plain that we, as Wikipedia, agree with its use. Personally I would use the respective invective myself in one of the two cases, but I feel strongly that we have no right to make either statement when speaking for Wikipedia. --Hans Adler (talk) 19:54, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't agree with anything, and we don't speak for wikipedia when we edit, we just report what reliable sources say. We are not agreeing on the strength of the sources being used to report a certain fact. --Enric Naval (talk) 20:01, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

By accepting the source's opinions as 'certain fact', you are subscribing to that source's point of view. Neutrality is about presenting information, opinions and conclusions, not anylysing/judging them and presenting them as 'facts'. The only facts that we can present is that some specific authors hold the opinion that homeopathy is pseudoscience/quackery. The facts are that they wrote what they wrote. My POV (and I suspect yours) is that they were correct when they wrote it.Naturstud (talk) 20:37, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I haven't looked at the new sources yet. The problem with this sentence is that it says very clearly, although implicitly, that we do agree with the sources. In a case like this (criticism of a subject in the article on the subject) we are not allowed to do this; the strength of the sources (almost) does not matter. --Hans Adler (talk) 20:08, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I usualy agree with you Verbal, but not this time. The sources are weak, especially given the 'name calling' aspect of the terms involved. We need much stronger sources that would stand up to being inserted in the main body of the text. That is the acid test for a good source, after all. Would you be comfortable with the articke stating that "Ayo Wahlberg of the London School of Economics has written:

• "Just as Roy Porter showed how the mid-19th century professionalization of medicine gave rise to a ‘quackery with a difference’ as a whole range of new medical movements—homoeopathy, hydropathy, medical botany, mesmerism—actively denounced allopathic or modern medicine, I will suggest that the late 20th century birth of ‘complementary and alternative medicine’ (CAM) has resulted in yet another transformation in quackery."

Are we really comfortable using this as our reference [14] for the statement "homeopathy...regarded as quackery"? Surely we can do better. Nothing is ever 'closed' on wiki, it seems. I would gladly support removing the neutrality tag should the article ever gain neutrality. By the way - I am an ND who will gladly put my POV on the record by saying that I think Homeopathy is both pseudoscience and quackery. You can quote me on that, but I am probably less notable than Ayo Wahlberg and Roy Porter combined. I just don't see the point of pretending that we have acheived neutrality. Let's beef up the refs first. Naturstud (talk) 18:10, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Naturstud, the sources are four papers on four different papers (not sure if they are all peer-reviewed), being one social journal and three medicine journals, and one of the papers is authored by Edzard Ernst. We can't probably quote you until you have published first your views about homeopathy on a peer-reviewed journal.

None of the sources is claiming that they view homeopathy as quackery, they are plainly claiming that it is quackery ok, Erns says that it's regarded as quackery, and the papers are backing that with facts. Sorry, but that's not a POV, that's a conclusion by specialists on the field that have examined the facts. As for name-calling, that's just your opinion. --Enric Naval (talk) 19:28, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

You don't have to apologize Naval - but if you could provide actual quotes from these sources where they state 'homeopathy is pseudoscience/quackery', that would certainly help. My point is that it is not possible to do this with the two refs that I have discussed above. I am suggesting that to keep terms like 'quackery' and 'pseudoscience' in a neutral article, we should provide the best possible sources. In this case, a source that provides a direct quote is preferable to a source that must be sumarized or 'interpreted'.

On a second point, the conclusions that 'homeopathy is quackery' and 'homeopathy is psudoscience' (if this is indeed what the four references are claiming) is absolutely 100% POV. There is nothing wrong with calling it just that, and there is nothing wrong with representing notable, verifiable POVs in this wiki article. It just needs to be abundantly clear that such points of view belong to the original authors and are not a judgment being made by the article. Your claim that such conclusions are NPOV 'facts' because they are published in peer reviewed journals and are written by specialists takes us further away from neutrality, not closer to it. Let us be specific in reporting what was said by whom and let the reader judge. Naturstud (talk) 20:04, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I corrected my comment above on the "is" --> "regarded" thing --Enric Naval (talk) 23:44, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we just agree to disagree about this sentence, for the moment? In the end we may need an RFC on this, but in the meantime it's probably best to make good use of the current constructive spirit and improve the rest of the article. It shouldn't be too hard to agree on some kind of tag to mark this sentence with in the meantime. --Hans Adler (talk) 20:01, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the sentence should stay, but disagree that it has been presented in an NPOV. I also think that the references for this line are too weak to support removing the neutrality tag at this point. Naturstud (talk) 20:08, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

How about the Ernst reference for "quackery at worst"? Verbal chat 21:56, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Probably fine in the way we are currently using it, i.e. including the "placebo therapy at best" bit. I am insisting on this because of personal experience (homeopathic self-medication being very effective for my hayfever, which I already knew to be strongly susceptible to placebo), which suggests that placebo therapy can be a very good thing, and because enhancing the placebo affect is probably the one strong point of homeopathy. --Hans Adler (talk) 22:30, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I like the Ersnt quote best for a few reasons:

1. His entire paper is availible (full, free text) so it is verifiable.
2. He presents his comments in a relevant context (an analytical discussion of efficacy)
3. He balances the q-word with the p-word, acknowleging that there may be some honest Homeopaths out there who are getting positive outcomes due to the placebo effect. The full quote: "It is in particular the use of highly diluted material that overtly flies in the face of science and has caused homeopathy to be regarded as placebo therapy at best and quackery at worst." The full quote makes his stong opinion clear. Truncating his quote or simply claiming that he thinks homeopathy is quackery makes hime seem more intolerant than he is.

Interestingly, in the line that follows, Ernst seems to be advising us directly on how to regain some neutrality: "Thus, the efficacy of homeopathic remedies has always been a matter of bitter controversy" (emphasis added). He acknowledges that Homeopathy is not merely controversial, but that people tend to get worked up about it. If Ernst can acknowledge his own biterness as a way of contextualizing his comments (the ref he provides is to his own review entitled 'The heresy of homeopathy'), I believe it behooves us to do the same.

I would like to see the 'name-calling' quotes put into such a context, something along the lines of..."The controversy surrounding Homeopathy is often heated and sometimes bitter, with some critics using terms like 'quackery'"...followed by full quotes that use such language.Naturstud (talk) 22:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

And those puntualizations are why why the article says "X and Y have caused homeopathy to be regarded as" instead of "homeopathy is" :D Also, Ernst is not "some critics" and he also uses "regarded" (which means that my comment above was wrong, ooops).

I think that you got the idea of NPOV wrong. If mainstream science thinks that homeopathy is quackery, then we report that. Time to use that new-fangled guideline on medical sources :) See Wikipedia:MEDRS#Cite_peer-reviewed_scientific_publications_and_check_community_consensus "Neutrality and no original research policies demand that we present the prevailing medical or scientific consensus". It's our duty to "balance" it or make it neutral to avoid stomping on the minority. It's quite the other way around "Although significant-minority views are welcome in Wikipedia, such views must be presented in the context of their acceptance by experts in the field." That means that if there is a minority view that homeopathy then *gasp* we must put them on the context of consensus on the field, which in this case would be considering that it doesn't work at all. NPOV is not about not making minority view holders feel good. Jimbo said something about how, if wikipedia wants to be respected, it has to use the scientific consensus and avoid fringe views from taking over... hum... I don't remember the exact cite, it was something like that :P I think is was extracted from here --Enric Naval (talk) 23:44, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

If mainstream science thought such a thing we would report it. But it doesn't. Some mainstream scientists hint that homeopathy may be quackery, or that it is regarded by some as such. That's not at all the same thing.

I don't know the exact reasons for this. Perhaps many scientists people feel it's not good for their career to criticise a therapy form with so many followers too openly and too vehemently. Perhaps many scientists keep quiet out of respect for friends and relations who believe in homeopathy. (Such as the 19th century physician who got in trouble for cooperating with a homeopath who was his wife.) Or perhaps they feel that homeopathy may be an effective placebo therapy, and that it's best for patients not to try to break the spell by saying it's only placebo (or worse). But fact is, we don't have the sources to back up your claim. --Hans Adler (talk) 00:15, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

We won't get all scientists to say anything. That's an absurd idea. And to sources, I've done a brief look on Google Scholar and found at least a couple a couple that don't hint, they state it outright. And there's a this one from Nature stating that it's pseudoscience. 24.76.161.28 (talk) 00:34, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, we are talking of sources that talk about "quackery", so the nature one doesn't count. Your first source is Ernst's paper. Your second source is a meta-review and cites only two papers that talk about quackery, one of them is Ersnt paper, and the other one says that, if we don't abandon the statements made by traditional medicine when tests yield negative results, then we risk supporting quackery. --Enric Naval (talk) 01:10, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Apart from quackery in the lead...

Leaving the quackery aside, any other comments/discussions? If it's something big please start a new section but please be specific. Thanks! Verbal chat 21:56, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Currently only the thing you seem to be afraid of. --Hans Adler (talk) 22:30, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

It's true, I don't like ducks - but this is off topic :) The quackery conversation can continue above, my intention was to keep it contained ... Verbal chat 22:33, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I meant the other one, from the other forum, actually. But let's keep it off the table for the moment. --Hans Adler (talk) 23:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Moving on a little in the lede, we have scare quotes for the word remedy which won't do. Then it says "The end product is often so diluted that it is indistinguishable from pure water, sugar or alcohol." If we want to get into this here, then it needs reworking to provide better context and also to avoid confusion about the diluent. The context is the Principle of Least Action and similar ideas which should be presented first. Colonel Warden (talk) 23:51, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

How is the Principle of Least Action immediately relevant? We could get into an enormous discussion about physics, or we could state that the molecular concentration makes it chemically indistinguishable. Or leave the current wording. 24.76.161.28 (talk) 00:41, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

The article is supposed to be describing Homeopathy. As I understand it there are several reasons behind the dilution. One is the idea of avoiding the toxic effect of the ingredient and we say something of this. Another is the idea is that you want the smallest effective dose because this will have the best effect. A third aspect seems to be the idea that the process of dilution and succussion amplifies the effect and that's why it is often repeated to an absurd level. The latter idea is the wacky bit that the article keeps coming back to again and again because it is such a soft target but it is not fundamental to homeopathy. This idea was controversial within homeopathy itself and we should say something of this. See this history, for example. My point is that the lede is so eager to tell us that high dilutions may leave nothing of the original ingredient that it neglects to explain properly how and why some homeopaths came to do this. It is neither informative nor NPOV. Colonel Warden (talk) 08:34, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I think most homeopaths would consider succussion pretty fundamental to homeopathy, as it is their last refuge at a pseudoexplanation for why there might be a difference between two identical dilutions that are claimed to be different - one of them was succussed and thereby imparted a healing quality to the "remedy". -- Fyslee / talk 16:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

The terms and principles of succussion or potentization are not mentioned in the lede - there is just a vague refernce to shaking in the sentence in question. If they are fundamental, as you suggest, then the lede should do more to explain them. This is my point - we have criticism without context. Colonel Warden (talk) 18:36, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

If they are important and are mentioned in the body of the article, then they deserve short mention in the lead, per WP:LEAD. If you have a good way of doing this, please start a new section, make a trial version, and let's develop it into a good consensus version that can be included in the lead. That way we can avoid edit warring over this. This really needs to be done, and I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned in the lead. -- Fyslee / talk 21:29, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

More generally, I browsed several works in my local library today - a general encyclopedia, a survey of alternative medicine by the Consumers' Association, a book about homeopathy by a practitioner and an exposé. The latter had an overt agenda of attacking alternative medicine and our article most resembles it rather than the other works. This point has been made before but needs restating: we should be aiming for an article which stands comparison with other encylopaedic treatments, not with works of advocacy. Colonel Warden (talk) 18:36, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

"Advocacy" works both ways. NPOV requires total coverage of the subject from all possible angles found in V & RS. WEIGHT reguires that the mainstream scientific POV be dominant in the article, without supplanting a proper presentation of the homeopathic POV. The scientific POV will often be described as factual because it is backed by good research and unquestioned facts (which are only questioned by fringe sources, which get little weight here or elsewhere). Stating facts as facts is not advocacy, while stating undocumented fringe claims as facts is advocacy, and that is forbidden here. The homeopathic POV must not be presented as if it is legitimate or describes the "truth" of ideas not confirmed by mainstream science. Without such evidence, homeopathic claims are identified as claims. The homeopathic POV should just be described neutrally and factually, without a shadow of advocacy. If scientific evidence ever supports current claims, then the V & RS will show that and the article will be revised accordingly. -- Fyslee / talk 21:29, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

As fyslee says. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:00, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

New section Homeopathy#Exemption for homeopathy

In my opinion this new section is completely pointless and a case of undue weight. There is no discernible connection between the part about the "appeal to nature fallacy" and non-testing of homeopathic placebos for side-effects. The second paragraph is US-centric, despite the fact that homeopathy is far more popular in the EU and some other countries than it is in the US. Its reference is a popular article, so unlikely to give the complete picture; my educated guess is that FDA regulations are really very similar to the corresponding EU regulations, which would mean that the exception only holds for extremely diluted remedies.

Thus we have an entire section about the following two legitimate bits of information: Extremely diluted homeopathical remedies are not tested for side-effects, which makes perfect sense if they are placebos (since the testing would be in a placebo-controlled study) but would be problematic if they had a non-placebo effect. And they are allowed to contain more alcohol (so what?). In my opinion this section is completely unencyclopedic. --Hans Adler (talk) 07:51, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

• I agree that it is too parochial and the term normal thinking is a giant weasel. India, for example, seems to favour homeopathy and so, if we were to count heads, we might come to a different conclusion about "normality". I suggest that this section be merged with the following section on Regulation and Prevalance and that there be sub-sections which detail the position in each major region: USA, EU, India, etc. Colonel Warden (talk) 09:17, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

• Moreover, per the general restrictions on this topic and since this section seems to have been added without talk or consensus, it should come out pending further discussion. Colonel Warden (talk) 09:49, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I think parts of this section could be worked into the 20th Century section, but I agree that this form isn't ideal. Verbal chat 10:48, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I basically agree with Colonel Warden and Verbal. I copied the section from a Safety section elswhere here, but was aware that it would need tweaking or a slightly better placement, but was called away and didn't have the time to do it immediately. This discussion is therefore appropriate. My edit was an example of WP:BRD and I certainly won't edit war over it by reinstating it without discussion here. The information is useful but needs to be merged properly. It contains information of which many people are likely unaware and which is missing from the article, thus it improves the article's full coverage of the subject. The high alcohol content presents a potential danger for some users, especially recovering alcoholics and children, and thus the alcohol content matter needs to be noted. The FDA is a reliable source and the history of FDA regulations of homeopathy is quite interesting, since it is an example of how political pressures and manipulation of laws by politicians who are supporters of homeopathy have affected those laws, in spite of any scientific factors. FDA regulations, just like many other things that happen in the USA, are copied elsewhere and influence what happens in the rest of the world, whether we like it or not. Let's discuss how this can be merged, rather than just deleting it. Does this sound reasonable? -- Fyslee / talk 16:42, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I think this topic really belongs into Regulation and prevalence of homeopathy. Regulation and prevalence of homeopathy#United States is already quite comprehensive but does not cover the bit about not testing for side-effects – perhaps because others agree that not testing a placebo for side-effects is not a big deal. I will try to find the original FDA regulations to see whether, like those in the EU, they only apply to highly diluted remedies (1/10000 for most substances, but there is a clause for things like digitalis and curare as well). Of course, if digitalis D1 were legal according to FDA regulations, that would be worth mentioning in the main article; but I doubt it.

I didn't know there are FDA rules about the alcohol content of medicine. I guess there are exceptions for various special cases, since it would be crass overregulation otherwise. I don't think this exemption is sufficiently notable to mention it in the main article, but of course the high alcohol content is worth mentioning under safety issues.

Regulation and prevalence of homeopathy#European Union currently mentions not testing for efficacy. I don't know if the technical term "efficacy" includes side-effects, but so far as I know there is no testing for side-effects and this should be mentioned clearly. I will verify this from the original regulation text before editing the section accordingly. --Hans Adler (talk) 17:07, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. Bring what you find here and we can hammer this out into an acceptable consensus version for inclusion. -- Fyslee / talk 17:36, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

OK, for the EU the question of testing for safety / side-effects seems to be a matter of national legislation. E.g. in Finland see section "Safety and Efficacy" of [2]. This spells out further conditions for practically testing the condition "to guarantee the safety of the product" from the following passage in the EU directive: "there is a sufficient degree of dilution to guarantee the safety of the medicinal product; in particular, the medicinal product may not contain either more than one part per 10000 of the mother tincture or more than 1/100th of the smallest dose used in allopathy with regard to active substances whose presence in an allopathic medicinal product results in the obligation to submit a doctor's prescription". The Finnish rules are not as strict as those for normal medicine, and they are certainly a lot cheaper for the manufacturers, but I think they make sense. I don't think we need to mention these details. (Research and sourcing for various European countries would be quite messy, anyway.) I'll look at the FDA regulations now. --Hans Adler (talk) 17:57, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I feel with you about making potentially messy and complicated additions! One way to deal with it would be to make a short statement, for example "Regulations regarding testing for safety and efficacy vary between countries."[add the refs here]. Then include the links and short, relevant phrases and place them in the references, leaving the body of the article free from a messy clutter. Some people love to read all the gory details, and they will be thankful for the links in the refs, while many if not most will never get that far, but will still have learned something from that one sentence. Does that sound like a good solution? It would be a shame for your hard work to get wasted. Share it with the world in this way! -- Fyslee / talk 20:43, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I can source this particular formulation (as far as as efficacy is concerned it's not even true), but the principle is good. Thanks for the suggestion. --Hans Adler (talk) 20:52, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I am still reading about the US situation, but one thing is clear: It's very different from the EU situation. In the EU, to be registered according to the homeopathy exemption, homeopathic remedies must not come with a "specific therapeutic indication". In the US there seems to be no registration (I am amazed), and homeopathic OTC remedies must "bear at least one major OTC indication for use" (and too vague or general indications are regarded as a problem). The EU is very obviously not copying the US here. --Hans Adler (talk) 20:47, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Very interesting. I know that in Denmark the laws regarding "natural" medicines and dietary supplements are different from pharmaceuticals, with a sliding scale of requirements regarding evidence and claims. "Natural" medicines must have at least one form of research indicating some benefit, and are allowed to make certain health claims. The research might be crap that is totally discredited elsewhere, but that's the way it is. Supplements are those things that can't even make it that far, or have actually been tested while attempting to become registered for sale as mainstream pharmaceuticals and found lacking and/or dangerous. They can still be sold as supplements, which can mean it's a crap shoot when taking them. They may actually have been proven to be dangerous, so the manufacturer just ceases attempting to get them sold as pharmaceuticals or natural medicines. So supplements are potentially the most dangerous category, even more dangerous than tested pharmaceuticals that have proven benefits and properly documented side effects. It's an odd situation, but the politicians have made this big loophole designed for the manufacturers of supplements, and they willingly jump through it and exploit it. -- Fyslee / talk 21:00, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I believe the food supplement problem is the same in Germany, and the "natural" medicines are regulated in the same EU directives that we are already citing for homeopathy. (Actually I think these rules do make some sense. It's plausible that medicine with a long history of use often comes with an unusually strong placebo effect. And we really don't want placebo-controlled studies for genuine food, so I suppose the loophole isn't easy to close.) Btw, I must correct myself: Homeopathic remedies in the US must be registered, after all. The magic word for finding information about this is National Drug Code System. --Hans Adler (talk) 21:33, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Surprisingly, I couldn't find any minimal dilution conditions for homeopathic remedies in the US. This doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist, as illustrated by my initial error concerning registration. If it's true that they don't exist, then there is a potential loophole here for everything in the Homoeopathic Pharmacopoeia of the US (and potentially for other traditional homeopathic remedies, although I think that's unlikely to be a problem). Thus the FDA would be relying on the good sense of the Homoeopathic Pharmacopoeia Convention of the US for the safety of homeopathic remedies, rather than on studies or prescribed minimal dilutions, and there would be a potential danger here that would go beyond the "natural" medicines exemption in the EU. So that's something I would really like to verify. --Hans Adler (talk) 22:11, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

That loophole is already being exploited quite a bit. Various undocumented products that have nothing to do with homeopathy are being marketed with claims of being homeopathic, and thus they are flying under the radar of the FDA. Claiming to be homeopathic means they don't get investigated until many complaints or some registered injuries or deaths are recorded. Many of these products have very real quantities of active ingredients in them, so the claims of being homeopathic are bogus and misleading. Zicam [3] and HeadOn come to mind. Come to think of it, maybe HeadOn is a bad example here. -- Fyslee / talk 22:30, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I see. Looks like the US has the following problem. Since indications are allowed (even required), and since the homeopathic pharmacopoeia doesn't effectively restrict them, it's easy to make a lot of money with products like your two examples. Any problematic potencies that appear in the pharmacopoeia has the potential to be mass produced without any clinical tests, like your first example. – If that's correct, I am sure the problem has been described before, so that we can do so too without committing synthesis. --Hans Adler (talk) 22:46, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

It's the place to make the most money with little investment other than marketing and shipping costs. -- Fyslee / talk 22:59, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Research sources

You may find these to be interesting sources for your research:

• Conditions Under Which Homeopathic Drugs May be Marketed - FDA
• Homeowatch, especially the "Legal and Regulatory Matters" section. Note the references in the various articles.
• An Alternative Perspective: Homeopathic Drugs, Royal Copeland, and Federal Drug Regulation - Suzanne White Junod, Ph.D. (From Food and Drug Law Journal 55:161-183, 2001)
• Homeopathy: The Ultimate Fake - Stephen Barrett, M.D. (especially the U.S. News & World Report story about "the $20-million duck.") See the references.
• Search of FDA website

-- Fyslee / talk 22:43, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Indistinguishable

I don't feel strongly about this, but I think MartinPhi's compromise version "chemically indistinguishable" is excellent. It's not very conspicuous or restrictive in this context, and it's likely to keep most proponents of homeopathy happy. (This is the lede. Even in a debunking article it would be counterproductive to affront believers in homeopathy long before giving the detailed arguments. I don't understand why anti-homeopathic POV pushers keep pushing against their own interest.) It's also more correct in the sense that it doesn't assume any particular testing methodology. Double blind studies are not the only way of testing; if you give two substances, one marked as homeopathic medicine and one marked as pure water or sugar, to patients, you probably get a stronger placebo effect from the former. The word "chemically" makes clear that the sentence doesn't intend to deny this. --Hans Adler (talk) 08:54, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Huh... Hans? People who make double blind studies are already aware of which one will get a stronger placebo effect. Actually, it's done that way on purpose. --Enric Naval (talk) 12:56, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

The point is that homeopathic medicine and pure water (or pure whatever) are distinguishable if each is labelled according to how it was produced. Therefore edit warring the compromise word "chemical" out of this article has a strong odour of POV pushing. --Hans Adler (talk) 14:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I think OM wants to push the point that homeopathy is not effective beyond placebo. There are two problems with this: 1. While doubtless true (in my opinion), it is not so universally acknowledged that we can just claim it in the lede without losing or affronting a large part of our readers. 2. It is only half the truth, because: a) The hypothesis that placebos labelled as homeopathic, or prescribed by homeopaths, are more effective than regular placebos prescribed by a regular doctor is almost impossible to test. b) In many situations placebo is the best treatment. --Hans Adler (talk) 16:28, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Problems with the lead

Significant parts of the lead largely consist of a series of disconnected sentences. Isn't anybody here taking account of the need for the article to have flow and be readable?Vitaminman (talk) 11:27, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

After taking a fresh reading of the current lead, I don't really see much of a problem, but I understand your concerns. Maybe the reason you see this as a problem is because of the rules governing LEAD content (not format). The lead must reflect article content, so any significant matters in the article must get passing mention in the lead. This means that the lead should get tweaked each time the article content changes. (I have my own rule of thumb: if a matter is significant enough to get its own heading in the article, it should be mentioned in the lead.) What this all means is that the lead evolves, rather than being written with a plan and proper flow. That doesn't mean that it can't be tweaked to improve flow, but that needs to be done very carefully, since every word, intonation, and phrasing in the lead has usually been the subject of edit wars, so any type of alteration can start new edit wars, and that needs to be avoided. Proposals should be made on the talk page first, and hammered out there into a consensus version everyone can live with. I hope that sheds some light on the situation, since your concerns are certainly legitimate and apply to many articles here. -- Fyslee / talk 15:47, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Notes & references

This should be the last section. If you notice a new section below, please "fix it" by moving this section back to the bottom of the page. Thank you.