Talk:Fathers' rights movement

Fathers' rights movement has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

NPOV & Reliable Sources problem

Articles by Collier, Richard; Sheldon, Sally in The Guardian promote a POV that family policy favored fathers - i.e. that fathers' rights activists are merely complaining that their advantageous positions w.r.t. family policy have been diminished. This is a biased pov from a source that (according to my read of the reliable source discussion related to this article) is not classified as a reliable source. The inclusion of that pov in the article is not npov. Rogerfgay 13:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me? I doubt you would find anybody that would agree that the Guardian is not a reliable source. It is a well-established newspaper with fact checking and editorial oversight. But you are welcome to pop over to the noticeboard and check. Collier and Sheldon are well-published academics in their fields, have written a book published by a reputable third party publisher on the topic. They and their book, are in my humble opinion the most reliable source that we have here. The fact that you think it in not of neutral point of view suggests more to be that they don't happen to agree with your POV than anything else. --Slp1 13:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't recall whether you were involved in the reliable source discussion related to this article. Or - did I thank you for fairmindedness there? The final comment, apparently by an admin. was that reliable sources come only from recognized academic publications; excluding for example MensNewsDaily.com which has been in business since 2001. It is not merely in this case that The Guradian is not an academic source, it is that the article cited expresses a clear bias that has been transferred into the Wikipedia article. An article characterizing the battle for fathers' rights as a reaction to diminished advantage shows extreme bias. Rogerfgay 13:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

The Reliable source discussion referred to WP:RS#Scholarship. Rogerfgay 13:34, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I am inclinded to delete the references to Collier, Richard; Sheldon, Sally and the material included that depends on their pov. It strikes me as inappropriate to rely on those who argue against fathers' rights - subtly or openly - to characterize the fathers' rights movement. The characterization that this is a reaction to diminished advantage is an easily recognizable counter-argument in the battle for fathers' rights. Rogerfgay 13:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Because you see these authors as an important part of the discussion, I have moved the citations to comments in another section. Rogerfgay 14:51, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Please read, as has been pointed out several times reliable sources. You will see that you are mistaken in your intepretation of reliable sources policies, and that respected newspapers are considered reliable sources by WP standards. --Slp1 16:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

NPOV in Background and history

I hope this doesn't seem discourteous but, are you kidding? This section was pretty much written to diss the fathers' rights movement, don't you think? Or is that only obvious to me? Tell me if you think so, and I'll explain. But I have to admit - first pass - it looks so obviously biased that I'm not sure that it needs an explanation. Rogerfgay 13:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Child Support Reference

Here's a reference to an article in an academic journal: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5910/published/ps_oct_2004.htm

The article is also available on the website of the journal and in other web-based collections of academic works. But you have to pay fees to obtain memberships to access those other sites such as JSTOR (where it is beyond submission and actually available now) and Cambridge Journals. I am the owner of the document and have the right to redistribute / make available to the public. Other sources charge fees to keep their operations going, which provide one-stop-shopping for all published articles on their journals lists. Rogerfgay 13:25, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Can you confirm what Journal this was published in? It is not clear from the link you provide.--Slp1 22:36, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

New Sections

It seems pretty obvious to me that at least two additional sections were needed. "The divorce industry" lies at the heart of major complaints of the Fathers' Rights Movement and is a / possiblly the primary reason for their existence. This may be much clearer in the US than in some other countries - so pardon if UK editors don't see it as well at this point. But the history is that reforms in the US, where "the industry" did drive reforms, spread to other countries via political philosophy on "responsible parenting" rhetoric and welfare reform and such. Rogerfgay 15:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, I don't see any possibility that this article can be complete, or even clear, without discussing opposition to fathers' rights. Without opposition, there would be no struggle and no reason for the political movement. There is a very strong and important opposition movement, which in large measure defines the character of the Fathers' Rights Movement (i.e. what they're struggling against). Rogerfgay 15:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Although the article has improved, it's only a good article. I agree that it is incomplete.

The article only mentions the "vested interests" of those who separate children from their parents. I agree that expansion in new section titled "Opposition of the fathers' rights movement" would be necessary to improve the article and paint a more complete picture.

Clearly, as indicated by the recent editing, many do not realize that fathers' rights is a human rights movement. A section that would make this clear would also improve the article.

Michael H 34 01:47, 26 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

Sorry if I sound like a broken record (or is it a CD these days?!) here, but please find reliable sources for all of these suggestions. Ideas are great but unless you can find sources they remain just original thoughts and research --Slp1 02:08, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that a new article be created with the title Divorce industry. This article can then link to it. Michael H 34 02:46, 29 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

I think you would need to be very careful that this didn't end up as a point of view fork. Even the title seems fairly POV to me Slp1 18:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Conflict of Interest

I noticed in discussion on reliable sources that someone assumed that, since I have knowledge and have written about fathers' rights, that I must have a conflict of interest. I have no conflict of interest. Rogerfgay 16:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Please see WP:COI, for the fact that COI if interest does not just cover financial issues. The guidelines suggest that having a close personal interest, and wishing to promote that interest/group might be a conflict of interest. Also "If you edit articles while involved with organizations that engage in advocacy in that area, you may have a conflict of interest."--Slp1 11:59, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Sip1: I think we've all figured out at this point that you are a strong opponent of fathers' rights and that you're going to do your upmost to battle against a neurtral pov in this and related articles; and that it is you with the COI. Rogerfgay 11:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

No, not so much. But I am a strong opponent of people using Wikipedia to promote their views and opinions. So to people whose unsourced, one-sided, and/or POV edits/commentaries I disagree with/challenge/delete, it probably looks like I do. Too bad that you had to return on such a comment though. --Slp1 12:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not so easy to fool. You're pushing the opposition pov, which is not neutral. You're battling against a neutral pov in the way that most people do it. You do not have an argument to make based on logic, so you're attacking the person. Rogerfgay 09:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits

Repeating the actions of a previous editor, I have reverting most of the recent changes made to the article, for various reasons. They were badly written, poorly or not sourced at all, and phrased in a POV manner. Please discuss suggested edits here on the talkpage, as has been requested in the past. --Slp1 16:57, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Sip1. I might understand your pov in, for example, seeing this as involved with a social movement. But people in the fathers' rights movement are not focused on the same issues that you are. They are not for example, the same people as religious right groups. Their relationship is fleeting - just that in both fathers and the relgious right are interested in preservation of family. The current struggle of the fathers' rights movement is a civil rights struggle. The link to civil rights is spot on. The reference to social is not. If you want to support your pov here, then I must ask you to explain. For example, why do you think fathers are not allowed civil rights, or why do you think fathers should not be regarded as natural part of family - or what is it that you would regard as justification for your classification? I guess moreover, and specific to the task of editing Wikipedia, why will you not allow an accurate representation of the fathers' rights pov in an article on the fathers' rights movement? Rogerfgay 19:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I afraid you are mistaken. I do not have a POV on the subject of Fathers' rights. No, I lie, I do have a point of view, which is that this article should be an interesting, well-sourced and neutral summary of the fathers' rights movement.

If you would care to wade through the archives here you would find that I have been spending way too much of my freetime trying to balance the edits of pro and anti fathers' rights editors (who sadly seem to be the only people who drop around). You will see that I have agreed and disagreed with both Trish Wilson (critic) and Michael H, (supporter), and that miraculously the three of us even managed to work fairly harmoniously throughout the spring. But it really is tedious to have people accuse me of protecting a personal point of view, when all I have been trying to do is uphold WP policies. Please see what follows for an example based on your specific point

I don't know (or frankly care) whether the father's rights movement is a civil rights or a social movement (though I note that Glenn Sacks calls it the latter [1]). As far as I am concerned you are welcome to change it to a civil rights movement if you can find a reliable source that says so and get consensus that this is an appropriate edit. If you can't find a source, well it doesn't matter how strongly you may believe it or even know it, it can't go in, because "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". Slp1 21:04, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

"I do not have a POV on the subject of Fathers' rights. No, I lie...."

May I ask you for a verifiable source for each of these statements? :-) Michael H 34 02:08, 26 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

I was about to write an affronted response until I noticed your smiley!! Here's mine ;-) --Slp1 02:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I prefer the term human rights movement to civil rights movement, but I agree that article is improved if one or the other is included. The current sentence is unsourced and therefore I ask that the improvement to this sentence not be reverted for lack of verifiability. Michael H 34 02:08, 26 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

I bet you can guess what I am going to say... find a reliable source. For either, anything, I don't care. I will look too. It has been " a social movement" for a long time without complaint, and since we have been trying to source as we have been going along, I think it is very appropriate to ask for a citation if this is going to be changed.Slp1 02:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay so I have easily sourced the social movement part. I will leave the HR movement part for the moment but could not find any reliable sources to support this. I will leave this for the moment but please source it soon, or it should be deleted as original research.Slp1 02:58, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Hey, Michael and Slp1! How are you two? Sorry I vanished like that. I have some writing deadlines to meet.

I corrected a statement in the shared parenting-custody section that really didn't describe the critics view very well. Critics don't cite poverty as the "cause" of "fatherlessness". It's more complex than that, and it's a correlation, not a causation. I cited McLoyd to make the real view more clear. I'm also having some trouble with the formatting. Slp1, can you help me with this? It's been awhile, and I'm having trouble formatting the footnote properly.

Trish Wilson 04:32, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I must take issue with the statement in the PAS section that "Critics and members of the fathers' rights movements agree about the danger that parental alienation syndrome may be used by abusive fathers as a weapon against appropriately protective mothers in order to win custody.[86][82]" The article by Wendy McElroy, a fathers' rights supporter, does not support the statement that "members of the fathers' rights movement" agree about the "danger that parental alienation syndrome may be used by abusive fathers..." McElroy talks only about mothers who allegedly had PAS. That's what she's always said. This statement should be changed to read that "critics cite the danger that parental alienation syndrome may be used by abusive fathers as a weapon against appropriately protective mothers in order to win custody," and leave it at that. The way the sentence reads now, it sounds as if fathers' rights groups agree that PAS is routinely used by abusive fathers against protective mothers. Nothing could be farther from the truth, and McElroy's article supports that. The fathers' rights movement in no way agrees that PAS is routinely used by abusive fathers against protective mothers in court.

Trish Wilson 04:43, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Welcome back, Trish. Good morning Michael and everybody else. This page and especially a related one on (Child Support) have seen lots of action in the last few days. It has ended up with Rogerlgay being blocked for 24 hours for disruption, edit-warring and POV-pushing. There will be lots of eyes on these pages in the next little while, and as a result I suggest that all edit carefully and cautiously, as we do not want a repetition here, and tempers are a little frayed possibly! I suggest that for the moment we go back to the old style of either proposing edits here on the talkpage, or giving systematic and clear reasonings for our edits after we have done them, once again here on the talkpage. I would also suggest that all read the conflict of interest guidelines, which notes that editors need to be very careful about editing when they have a personal interest in an area (either for or against)and this includes groups such as the FRM. Specifically, and as DanielEng pointed out, "Either edit neutrally or don't edit at all." Slp1 11:32, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Re your edit, Trish. I think that it possibly adds too much detail and is more about the issue than about the FRM than anything else. Maybe a useful addition to the child custody place??. It is also a bit POV (using the word "points out".) I am going to edit out the POV for a start, but in any case, I expect to have some more general suggestions for the direction that this article might go, but I must get to my real work! Slp1 12:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that if the extensive detail from McLoyd is included in the article, then the statistics correlated with fatherlessness should be included in the article to balance the weight given the critics point of view. Michael H 34 13:20, 26 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

The added material is not properly attributed. Michael H 34 13:23, 26 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

I have edited this to reduce duplication etc. Can you explain what you mean by not being properly attributed? I would be happy to take a look if I knew what you meant. Slp1 19:23, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

You removed the unattributed sentence: "Poverty and job status appear to be key factors regarding positive child outcomes in single mother homes, not merely the presence or absence of a father."

Your edit is an improvement. I have a suggested change though. Michael H 34 19:41, 28 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

needs_NPOV

This article appears to have been built using political debate material, including arguments in opposition to ideas of the fathers' rights movement, as a basis for defining the movement. Although such material could be included, it needs to be clearly presented in a section on opposition to the movement. Representation of the fathers' rights movement as a reaction to dimished advantage is obviously a characterization given by some of the strongest opponents to fathers' rights. Characterizing the movement as a "social" movement and refusal to accept the phrase "civil rights" movement is a direct denial that civil rights issues are at stake. Editors have been rejecting the use of citations to credible sources that represent the fathers' rights movement. Properly cited material is deleted when it supports a more complete or concrete description of actual issues. Rogerfgay 06:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Sip1 - Deleting the neutrality challenge tag is an act of Wikipedia:Vandalism. Rogerfgay 08:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I support the removal of the tag, while the issues are worked out.

The article includes: "Such groups suggest that laws once favouring fathers have now swung too far in the opposite direction, establishing men as the new victims of the legal system."

Slp1: I agree that the phrase "once favouring fathers" may be unclear to the reader. Is it possible that "once provided fathers with automatic custody" is an appropriate substitute based on your reliable source? Michael H 34 14:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

Perhaps you would care to remove the tag, then Michael. I think you suggestion about clarifying the sentence is a good one, and will check the sources and get back to you. --Slp1 18:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Slp1: Yes, please do. The sentence is unclear and if the clarification cannot be sourced then the sentence should be removed. Michael H 34 03:32, 30 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

"Such groups suggest that laws once favouring fathers have now swung too far in the opposite direction, establishing men as the new victims of the legal system."

This sentence is confusing on more than one level. In an article devoted to the dangers of male-bashing, columnist John Leo notes that "the last thing we need in America is yet another victim group, this one made up of seriously aggrieved males." The sentence above in the article is beyond repair. It is an attempt by Collier and other would be social engineers to devalue the claims of the fathers' rights group. This sentence should not be included in the article. I believe that there is consensus that it should be deleted. Michael H 34 02:07, 31 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

Do not remove very well sourced material (as noted above). I said I would clarify it, and I will. Or you could have done it. Michael, you have an admitted POV and an clear interest in promoting the Fathers' rights movement. You should not be making these kinds of edits since it is clear that you are just POV pushing. Even your explanation makes that clear. --Slp1 02:34, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

The sentence adds nothing to the article. It is belittling. It is undefendable.

I am not the only person who has objected strongly to this sentence. Michael H 34 02:45, 31 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

And your objection is based on what WP policy?--Slp1 02:53, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Consensus. You are the only person who believes that this sentence improves the article. More than one person has strongly objected to this sentence. The sentence pushes a POV. It introduces the concerns of the movement as "whiny".

I am disappointed by your statement that "I am just POV pushing." I find it unwelcoming. Michael H 34 03:01, 31 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

I don't think that consensus among two point of view editors is what counts. I am sorry that you find the term POV pushing unwelcoming, but welcoming time is past. I have tried over and over again to get you see that it is your responsibility as a WP editor to edit in a NPOV view way. You never acknowledge these requests, never say you will try, let alone actually begin to actually do it. You just continue to delete sourced so-called negative things you find "belittling", or whatever, and adding pro-fathers' rights information only. You complain selectively about information I have added from respected academics. Some of it you like, thank me for, and want to let stand, but other parts (from the same author) you label as POV, because it doesn't agree with your opinion. What am I supposed to think? Of course I have come to the conclusion that you are POV-pushing. I have repeated asked you to prove me wrong about this by editing neutrally. Because you have come a long way and have tried hard to learn and abide by the policies around here, I really think you have it in you to cross this final frontier. Can you do it? Slp1 11:51, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Disagreement

I have not come a long way. Not once since my very first edit in Wikipedia, have I for example, accused other editors of pushing a POV. My behavior has not just been good or "better than others." It is impeccable, and beyond reproach.

It is not past the time to be welcoming. "Wikipedia has a code of conduct. Act in good faith, and assume others are acting in good faith too. Be open and welcoming."

I am not POV-pushing. I have edited to create an article with a NPOV by attributing the sentences I add. I have added criticism to this article, and I can prove this, if necessary.

I admit to having a POV, which is to make the issues of the FRM as clear and well-written as possible. This does not disqualify me from editing this article. I am invited by Wikipedia to object to sentences that (1) add nothing to the article and (2) belittle the concerns of the fathers' rights movement.

(Notes: "The Family On Trial", Melanie Mays 1981) "The Fathers' rights movement is the civil rights movement of our era. Some belittle...." Michael H 34 14:00, 31 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

Sigh. I try to give you a compliment, and you turn it into some sort of insult. Remember the days when you didn't know how to format references, or that we should do edit summaries, or that any old blog was not a reliable source, or that we can't add our own ideas and research, or that we can't synthesize ideas together to make a point. I think you have learnt a tremendous amount as you have edited here, and it is to your credit that you have great at putting it all into practice. And no, you haven't descended to personal attacks as others have.

Please note I am assuming good faith because I keep saying that you have it in you to be neutral editor, and keep asking you to try it. I still haven't given up hope. I agree you have added some "critical" edits, but you must admit that the percentage as compared to your pro-father's rights edits is very, very small. You are certainly entitled to a point of view, but if you edit the article and the talkpage as you have, then you must expect that people will see it as pushing your POV. Which frankly it is, even if you see it as just objecting to sentences that "add nothing to the article" or "belittle the concerns of the FRM". Funny how often the things that "add nothing" or "belittling" are sourced sections which you interpret as critical. Funny how often extra sections/sentences appear with more FRM advocacy. And I am not the only editor who has noticed the patterns in your edits. But anyway, I give up. I have better things to do with my time than to work on an article with editors who make almost every well-sourced edit a battle royal. Have fun. I have a feature article to save. Slp1 21:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Your help on this article is greatly appreciated. You will be welcome back. Best wishes, Michael H 34 02:14, 1 November 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

Richard Collier's POV

The following is a quote from a citation by Miranda Kaye, who I characterize as a critic:

"Nonetheless, while the feelings of suffering are real, the framework of values and understandings which is used to characterise and make sense of both those feelings and the experiences which give rise to them is very-much open to debate.325 Richard Collier makes such a distinction when he talks about, the "disjunction between the very real experience of personal disempowerment which appears to exist on the part of many of these men and the facts of power?”326 We are concerned that the fathers' rights movement, and a number of the media representatives and public figures who deal with these groups, do not draw such a distinction."

After reading this, it is not surprising to me that Richard Collier refers to the fathers' rights movement as a social movement rather than a civil rights movement. I interpret "the facts of power" to mean that fathers have no rights to their children. This is the heart of the issue and Collier is not neutral.

Fathers Rights' activists contend that the human rights of children to both parents and the civil rights of parents to live in peace with their children have been woefully abridged, and they have proposals. Their proposals other than their proposal for shared parenting (no-fault divorce, child support, and the operations of the family courts) have not yet been included in the article. This should be done.

In addition, the very first sentence needs improvement. Michael H 34 17:52, 28 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

You are misinterpreting "facts of power". My clear understanding is that he means that men are in a more "powerful" position in the world, including physically, economically, professionally, status etc etc as compared to women. You will see that this makes sense in the context of the paragraph and the use of the word `disjunction`. Please note, that while Collier and Sheldon do appear to agree that it is a social movement, the actual references given in this cite are to others. --Slp1 20:26, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Isn't there some irony in the "fact" that your interpretation of "facts of power" is completely opposite to mine?!?!? I accept your interpretation though, even though it never would have even occured to me. Ever.

Richard Collier believes that "male privelege" is a "fact."

One of the irksome statements made by the critics in this article is that "fathers are non-custodial parents because they do not want to be primary custodians to their children." Men know that a custody battle is expensive, not in the best interest of their children, not in the best interest of the relationship with the mother of the children who has been empowered to be a "gatekeeper" to his parenting time, and almost certainly as a result of bias and self-interest of the divorce industry, futile. Although viewed by politicians as having "abandoned his children", he has been forcibly separated from his children literally through "no fault." What is more important than our children? I dismiss the notion that male privelege exists and I strongly suggest that Richard Collier is a NOT neutral source. Best wishes, Michael H 34 22:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

Well, it is too bad that you are unwilling to explore this issue. Personally I find that life is richer if one tries to see things from another perspective, however uncomfortable and challenging it may be at the start. And trying to understand the other view is something we all need to do on Wikipedia when editing from a neutral POV.

The Collier and Sheldon book is a collection of 6 chapters written by 7 different academics from 6 different countries. Are you going to say that none are neutral? Even if they are not, are you claiming that Sacks, Baskerville etc are neutral? In any case, it doesn't matter whether they are what you call "neutral" or not. From WP:V you will note that Wikipedia relies "heavily" on the work of scholars, academics and material published in the most reliable publications including journals, books and mainstream newspapers. That's what these people are and where they have published. Baskerville and his new book too. These are the most verifiable, reliable sources we have, and like it or not these should form the core of the article. BTW, I really would encourage you to get a copy of the Collier and Sheldon book. It is extremely interesting and thought provoking, and not too long! Slp1 00:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Life is interesting! I have explored the issue! I've read Dickens and Hardy as well.  :-)

These men are suffering what is unimaginable for some and this suffering is juxtaposed with their perceived privelege. These men have had their children taken away from them and it's as if others would like to tell them "enjoy your privelege, sir!" Just become a captain of industry or a governor!

I am willing to say that the academics who do not recognize that a "rights" movement is about "rights" are not neutral. I also suggest that their points of view are not independent.

Maybe I will purchase the Sheldon and Collier book. Thanks for the recommendation.

Best wishes, Michael H 34 02:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

Mmm. I think you are taking the sentence way too literally. Not sure where what you mean about rights movement or that the academics are not independent. Independent of what? But like I said, worrying about what is and is not a neutral source is not necessary, and also pretty much impossible to determine (You and Trish would have very different ideas, for example). We need reliable sources. Full Stop. Slp1 03:09, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

"Independent of what?"

Independent of each other.

"But like I said, worrying about what is and is not a neutral source is not necessary,...."

I agree with you.

The fact that reliable sources need not be neutral may soon become the topic of debate on the Child support discussion page. Michael H 34 03:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)Michael H 34

Yes, this prediction was correct. Michael H 34 04:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

This is a different page, about a different topic. Baskerville is obviously a reliable source here.--Slp1 12:24, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

So this guy is trying to do mass psychological analysis? I haven't read him, so I don't know what possible value his work might have. But it does not appear to be focused squarely on the subject. It is one of many discussions that go off into whatever space an analyst wanted to take it. I presume that the author is a psychologist or sociologist? His general focus of study is most likely the reason for presenting that pov, rather than an effort to characterize the purpose or reason for the movement as accurately as possible. My sense is that a psych approach is being used here to avoid writing about the issues and concerns of the fathers' rights movement; by starting with a claim that it's just a bunch of guys responding emotionally ... to the loss of advantage they once had as men (the extreme feminist argument). Rogerfgay 07:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Neither of you have read the book. You are both editors with admitted pro-fathers rights POVs and are to all intents and purposes SPA accounts. And now you are making inaccurate speculations about the content of a book you haven't even read and the authors you know nothing about. Do you realize how unscholarly and inappropriate this is? Do you realize how unlikely it makes it look that you can edit this article in a NPOV way? For the record, the authors work at 8 different universities in 6 different countries. For the record, the authors represent 4 different disciplines, none of them psychology.Slp1 12:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

"You are both editors with admitted pro-fathers rights POVs and are to all intents and purposes SPA accounts."

Actually, I have edited a few other articles related to science. Some edits were minor. Some were not. I honestly admit that I have a POV with respect to this article. I suggest that this should not be considered as some sort of evidence against me or my edits. I have never resorted to name-calling or labeling with respect to other editors.

To me, the aforementioned statement by Richard Collier was not neutral. So what. For all I know, he's changed. Michael H 34 14:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

I agree that you have behaved much better than other editors, Michael. But I remain frustrated by the POV nature of many (but not all) of your edits and many (but not all) of your comments on this page. I would honestly have incredible respect for you if you could edit this article with NPOV, adding the good and the bad about the FRM equally. So here's a challenge. I don't blame you for editing out the Darren Mack part: not nice to be associated with such a man, and I think you were at the time correct that it wasn't that clear what the link between the FRM and him. But it seems from the latest news reports [2] [3] and even a June 2007 Glenn Sacks post,[4](see point 6) that he did consider himself a hard-done by member of the FRM. What do you suggest we do about this now? Slp1 18:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Addendum. Please tell me you are not the Michael H who posted twice at the Sacks column. That Michael H knew a long time ago that Mack had called FR leaders while on the run. He sure sounds like you, but hopefully I am wrong. Slp1 19:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

I imagine that you do not shy away from frustration since you have volunteered your skill and effort on this article. I also suggest that it is not a miracle that we have worked together harmoniously and that the article has come this far.

The CBS report provided innuendo but absolutely no evidence connecting Mack to the FRM. The San Diego article does not mention the FRM. Glenn Sacks's post suggests that Mack tried to join the movement after murdering his wife in a selfish attempt to protect himself. The Las Vegas Sun article does not mention the timing of Mack's association with his "teammates." Mack's motivations were selfish and not representative of the FRM.

How much weight does this man's actions deserve? I suggest that this despicable man deserves no weight in this article. Michael H 34 20:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

That's the problem right there. You consider him "not representative of the FRM" (Original Research). You would like the article to reflect your ideal of the FRM rather than than his "He is despicable", "How much weight does this man's actions deserve?"(Point of View).

Three references make clear that he was involved with the fathers' rights movement and had even made a video for them.

Las Vegas Sun "Prosecutors used testimony from Osborne and Garret Idle, a self-described "teammate" with Mack in a father's rights advocacy group, to portray the attacks as a premeditated plot to end a contentious divorce and send a message to a legal system that he believed had wronged him. Idle was blunt with his disdain for Weller. He said his first act after hearing Weller had been shot was to call Mack, with whom he said he shared views about Weller being unfair and the Family Court system as "dysfunctional" and needing "to be torn down.""We were both teammates trying to tackle a very important issue," Idle said."

Associated Press."Mack had been so angered by the judge's rulings in his case that he'd contacted fathers rights advocates and agreed to a taped interview about his case. Daskas played the video for jurors. In it, Mack railed against the “tyranny” of the court and compared his battles to the Revolutionary War. “At what point do we ... state we're not going to take this anymore. Where do we draw the line?” an agitated Mack says to the camera".

Court TV [5]"In his opening statement, Chief Deputy District Attorney Robert Daskas showed jurors clips of a video in which Mack was interviewed by members of a fathers' rights group. He railed against Weller and the family court system, saying at one point that the injustices of his divorce were like those of the American colonists fighting the British — only worse."

In this article you removed the citation and the claim that violence had been done by a member of the FRM. [6] [7] and on the FR by country page you did more: [8] and on the FR's rights in the US, this one [9] None put exactly excessive emphasis on the case.

There are now reliable sources that these edits were accurate (though I agree they were not very well sourced at the time.) Why not show that you are trying to be NPOV editor and restore what was there before (though the new citations would be good!). You haven't responded about whether you are Michael H on Glenn Sacks and therefore knew about the fact that Mack had contacted FR leaders after the murders. If you did then this edit, [10] is problematic, because you knew from Glenn Sacks that he had claimed to be a fathers' rights activist, as the article had stated.Slp1 21:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Without question, no edit or series of edits that I have ever made in Wikipedia is problematic, both within articles and on discussion pages.

Someone added improperly sourced information about Mack. I reworked this information to state that Mack claimed to be a member of the fathers' rights movement. So it stood for quite some time. However, when I realized that I had been fooled by the CBS article, I removed the information about Mack because even a statement such as "Mack claimed he was a member of the fathers' rights movement" is not properly sourced.

The links you provide here do not state that Mack was a member of the fathers' rights movement and they do not even state that Mack claimed to be a member of the fathers' rights movement.

Even the blog post (why is this a reliable source?) merely states that a wife killer tried to cover up his crime by contacting a fathers' rights group.

Mack should get no weight in this article. Michael H 34 03:21, 30 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

"The links you provide here do not state that Mack was a member of the fathers' rights movement". He was involved, Michael, it is as clear as day. Here's another one [11] "Jurors heard from seven additional witnesses Thursday, including a man Mack met in a support group for fathers who felt wronged by the family court system. Garret Idle said he and Mack both felt terribly mistreated by Weller's handling of their divorces." I absolutely agree that his name and deeds have no place in this article, but merely readding that violence has controversially been used by some madmen members of the members is totally appropriate. Slp1 11:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I edited the article so that it agrees with what has been sourced in the added citations. Michael H 34 14:29, 30 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

I have restored it. Read the 4 sources. He was clearly involved with the FR group before his crimes. I haven`t even linked to the Sacks post about what he did aftewards.Slp1 14:39, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

He must have sought support from the fathers' rights group prior to his crime, otherwise he would have been turned over to police. Michael H 34 22:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

I'm confused. Oh okay, I get it. Yes, I expect you are right. Slp1 01:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Civil rights movement

Too bad you decided not to discuss this first, as suggested, Michael, but anyway. I don't agree that the reference you provided is adequate for this claim. This is an advertisement for a conference/radio show, and has no known author. As such it does not qualify as a reliable source. In addition, the ad also specifically says that others disagree that it is a civil rights movement, (as does title of the conference " Civil Rights Leaders or Reactionary Patriarchs?"). This making adding that the FRM is clearly a Civil Rights movement a very POV statement. If you can find a better source I guess we could add that the FRM claims it is a civil rights movement somewhere in the next. --Slp1 19:04, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

"The Fathers' rights movement "has been characterized" was reliably sourced. Michael H 34 19:14, 28 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

I can't argue with the fact that it has been characterized as such. But fathers' rights groups have not formed as social groups. They have formed specificially for the purpose of dealing with civil rights problems. But it may be too much to get through the Wikipedia politics of actually characterizing it for what it actually is. This, and much of the remainder of the article still presents an opposition pov which is not neutral. There will be no lack of citations for opposition argument. Opponents of fathers' rights have been very active and have written a lot. Rogerfgay 07:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

A unsigned ad is not a reliable source.--Slp1 19:18, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I changed the source. Michael H 34 19:36, 28 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

I'm looking into the other citations for characterization as a social movement. It is not uncommon for a sociologist to study sociology or a psychologist to study psychology. The question is whether the characterization of such a study is also (concidentally) an accurate characterization of the fathers' rights movement. My view is that the benefit of any doubt should be given to representatives of the movement. Otherwise, the article is destined to go off in as many random directions as there are authors to write from different povs, and readers will be left with the impression that the fathers' rights movement has no specific purpose. Rogerfgay 08:58, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

"My view is that the benefit of any doubt should be given to representatives of the movement." Absolutely and completely wrong. This is an encyclopedia not a FRM promo page. Do you think Enc. Britannica would let FR supporters write the article and determine content? The same goes here. You really really need to read the policies here. They have been pointed out enough times, but here goes again. WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:RS, WP:NOR and WP:SOAP. Slp1 11:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Several of the recommendations on page 298 of Taken Into Custody... have yet to be added to the article. Michael H 34 13:54, 29 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

The section on the divorce industry and the opposition to the fathers' rights movement has yet to be added to the article. Michael H 34 03:39, 30 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

I've made a start. More needs to be added. Michael H 34 04:57, 30 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

Kenedy is one of the "New Social Movement" scholars who studies civil rights movements in terms of social justice issues; which ties things together with a common thread for comparative analysis. Mckee defines groups by various common distinctions such as “queer”, black, feminist, and father and treats each of these characteristics as a “social” identity for the group. Regardless of how interesting and authoritative you might find these authors, the characterization of the fathers’ rights movement as a social movement misses the boat. In fact, to what extent is the fathers’ rights movement actually a “movement”? As a broad generalization, there are people who have banned together for a specific purpose, so this term can be applied. But their battle is simply against corrupt government policies that harm them and groups that profit from the policies. It has been necessary for them to form groups because it is now impossible to deal with these issues individually. This does not in my view, a social movement make. Rogerfgay 09:06, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

"profit from the policies"

The article needs to make this clearer. It is more than just those within the family court system that profit from divorce.

I suggest that a new section labeled Opposition to the fathers' rights movement should describe the vested interests outside of the Family Court System. Michael H 34 14:18, 30 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

Background and History - recent edits

Slp1: Good job! Well done!

I would like to add "Fathers love their children."

Best wishes, Michael H 34 03:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

I presume you are joking about your last comment! You realize that these analyses come directly from the book you have been disagreeing with? --Slp1 11:50, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I was being sincere. I was not joking about the last comment. Yes, I realized this. Michael H 34 13:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

Well then I will answer sincerely. I don't agree to it. I would see as an attempt to add emotionally-laden POV rhetoric to the article. Sorry --Slp1 19:08, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

"Men are encouraged, by society and by legal factors, to be more involved as fathers at a time when, in certain ways, it is more difficult for them to do so."

I disagree with the truth of this sentence. Michael H 34 18:58, 29 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

My first answer is that you should take your disagreement up with Collier. "The threshold for inclusion is verifiability not truth". ::My second answer is to inquire whether there might be something that is unclear in the sentence that leads to your disagreement. How are you interpreting it? Slp1 19:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

"The threshold for inclusion is verifiability not truth". I understand this.

What legal factors encourage father involvement? Michael H 34 20:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

Here is the summary of three trends" "that underpin the new prominence of the FRM internationally: firstly complex shifts in household and familial arrangements, secondly changes in the understandings of fatherhood, motherhood and importantly, childhood; finally a shift in how legal regulation relates to the family."

The book has more details later, but is a bit hard to follow, I find! Took me a few readings to get it! In the section entitled "Law, State and Governance":

"This brings us on to the third broad factor that underlies the increased profile of the FRM: the shifting nature of the regulation and governance of family practices within certain jurisdictions. In the UK, for example, it has been suggested that, within a broader context of a political refocusing on ideas of citizenship and responsibility, there has been a clear and determined attempt to effect 'social engineering' in the area of the family by changing the very nature of post-divorce family life. The repositioning of fatherhood has been a central element in this process, with ideas of 'good' fatherhood being reconstructed in complex ways in the the legal regulation of post-divorce family life." Slp1 22:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

"The 'social engineering' in the area of the family by changing the very nature of post-divorce family life. The repositioning of fatherhood has been a central element in this process, with ideas of 'good' fatherhood being reconstructed in complex ways in the the legal regulation of post-divorce family life."

Did these authors provide an example of this social engineering?

Will fathers be required to pay hourly fees to visit their children under the supervision of government-funded employees, who demean the fathers in front of the children and who depend on the operation of the family courts for their jobs? Michael H 34 23:02, 30 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

Try reading the book and finding out for yourself whether these negative interpretations are justified or not. Hint: they are not. Slp1 02:13, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

The sentence at issue begs the question, what "legal regulations."

The members of the fathers' rights movement state that legal regulations are separating children from their fathers, and that Bar Associations are campaigning against shared parenting, but the sentence at issue states that "legal regulations" are expecting fathers to be more involved as fathers.

Through innuendo, the sentence pushes the idea that fathers are not involved with and readily abandon their children, but with the help of legal regulations (and the attendant government bureacracy) will a myth of a problem be solved. I object to the inclusion of legal regulations in this sentence unless an example can be provided. Men are being forced to stay away from their children as a result of the abuse of legal regulations. Michael H 34 03:18, 31 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

Notes: It is coincidence, but this morning I just read about "Responsible Fatherhood Programs" and "Supervised Visitation Centers" on page 254 of "Taken Into Custody..." Michael H 34 14:04, 31 October 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

A final word. You are totally misinterpreting this sentence, which is actually a rather interesting look at factors leading to the growth of the fathers' rights movement in the last 30 years. There is no innuendo and actually it is rather positive, if you could only see it. And remember that while you may not agree with it, and can even produce original research to support your contention, that doesn't mean that the sentence isn't verifiable (which it is) and shouldn't be in the article (which it should). But I won't hold my breath. Slp1 21:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

You may be correct that I am misinterpreting this sentence, but whether I am or not does not matter. It is not wrong for me to provide my POV about connecting the words "legal regulations" with "requiring fathers to be more involved as parents."

While I was critical about the "legal regulations" sentence and the "new victims" sentence, I was almost overwhelmingly positive about your edits, and I was never critical of you as a person or as an editor. Your effort and skills helped to create a very good article. I fondly wish you well in your future endeavors. If circumstances permit, I hope to welcome you back to this article once again. Michael H 34 03:01, 1 November 2007 (UTC) Michael H 34

buying a baby

is it legal to offer money for full custody of a child? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.126.127.230 (talk) 16:17, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

External Links At End Of Article

Hi, Slp1 and Michael!! You guys have been busy.  ;)

I read your comments to my earlier post, Slp, and I agree with you. It's been a bit heated in here, as well as very busy. I'll post any changes here first and talk to you before making any changes on the article page. I've been very busy with work myself so I haven't been able to help out here.

I do have one change I'd like to suggest. Could the External Links and External Links Critical Of The Fathers Rights Movement be moved farther up the article to just after Notable Supporters? I'm used to seeing footnotes as the final thing in an article, and seeing the External Links pages after the footnotes throws me off a bit. What do you think, Slp?

Trish Wilson 23:11, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Removed Bias

Removed badly edited statements that were clearly biased. Unsure whether they need to be rewritten more neutrally? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.66.3 (talk) 16:40, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

81.152.66.3 while I understand why you removed the content that removal was not the best option. The lines I reinstated have been included in the section to give a neutral point of view. I did not reinstate the claim that women file less domestic violence and child abuse claims because I can't find that being supported in the references. Also I have reworded the lines so that they are more neutrally recorded. Also please sign your comments using ~~~~--Cailil ^talk 17:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

OK thankyou, That was my first edit on wikipedia was I'm a little hazy on the rules. 81.152.66.3 (talk) 18:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I removed the content on WP:RS/WP:V grounds. XYonline is not a reliable source, i.e., a "reliable, third-party, published [source] with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Specifically, it appears to be a self-published source. Blackworm (talk) 07:33, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

The content should be restored because this article cites the fathers' rights point of view as well as points of view of critics, so XYOnline is a reliable source. I have never before undone an edit, so I apologize in advance if I completely screw it up. Trish Wilson (talk) 20:31, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to undo the removal of the XYOnline source. Cailil, could you please help me with that? Thanks in advance. Trish Wilson (talk) 20:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Your argument does not logically follow. What the article says has no bearing on whether the source is reliable. XYOnline is clearly a tiny, self-published website resembling a blog, not a news source with a reputation for fact checking and accuracy. Please carefully read WP:RS and Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published sources (online and paper) before restoring this unreliable source. Blackworm (talk) 20:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not here to get into an argument with you. This article has a history of using sources that are both fathers' rights points of view and critics points of view. XYOnline belongs here just as much as the fathers' rights sites referenced here belong here for the purpose of presenting both fathers' rights views and critics views. I'm not sure how to restore a source, so I'll leave that to Cailil.75.69.138.115 (talk) 20:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC) - Sorry, that was me - Trish Wilson (talk) 21:03, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd also like to know why the critics view of child support was deleted from the article. There was no reason to delete it, and I don't know how to restore it. 75.69.138.115 (talk) 20:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC) - Sorry, that was me - Trish Wilson (talk) 21:03, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

The edit you are supporting (using XYOnline as a source), violates official Wikipedia policy, and therefore must be removed from Wikipedia. If you wish to overcome my objections to the use of this source (XYOnline), you must demonstrate that XYOnline is a "reliable, third-party, published [source] with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" (WP:RS). Considering that the XYOnline [home page] states, "XY is run by two people at the moment, and we'll put in as much money of our own as we can. But we can't afford this much. Any contribution, no matter how small, will be gratefully accepted," I believe this will be extremely difficult to demonstrate. Blackworm (talk) 21:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you understand. This article supports sources that both support and criticize the fathers' rights movement. Fathers' rights sources that normally would violate Wiki policy include Glenn Sack's articles from his newsletter, an article from the fathers' rights publication The Liberator, the Fatherhood Coalition web site, and similar web sites that wouldn't normally be supported by Wiki policy. Since those sites provide the point of view of the fathers' rights movement, they are accepted on this article. Likewise, critical views of the fathers' rights movement have been supported here for the past year or so. I'm not sure which XYOnline article was sourced here. Was it one by Dr. Michael Flood? He is a viable source regardless of where he is published. I'm not going to discuss this with you anymore. I'll wait until Caillil reads these posts and gives his two cents. Trish Wilson (talk) 21:47, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

You say, "He is a viable source regardless of where he is published," but that clearly contradicts official Wikipedia policy, even if you could demonstrate that his opinion is somehow notable, which you have not demonstrated. The other sources you mention may indeed be unreliable; that depends on whether they are used to state notable opinions from the publishers themselves (as seems to be the case for Glenn Sachs). However, that is not an argument in support of XYOnline being a reliable source, since it clearly is not. Blackworm (talk) 21:55, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Trish is correct, WP:V explains that a source from an established expert can be used even if it is an op-ed and falls close to being "self-published":

Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources

XY was and should be used with care - it was not used and can't be used for interpretation, it should only be described (WP:PSTS) since it really is a primary source. Now the notability of Dr. Flood is a non-issue. This is a list of some of his major publications in this field:

• 'Engaging men: strategies and dilemmas in violence prevention education among men' by Michael Flood in Women Against Violence: A Feminist Journal, 2002
• Youth and Pornography in Australia: Evidence on the Extent of Exposure and Likely Effects by M Flood, C Hamilton, (Australia Institute, 2003)
• Encyclopedia of Men and Masculinities by Michael Flood, Judith Kegan Gardiner, Bob Pease, Keith Pringle, (Routledge, 2007), ISBN: 9780415333436
• Fatherhood and Fatherlessness by Michael Flood, Australia Institute
• Mapping Homophobia in Australia M Flood, C Hamilton (Australia Institute, 2005)
• 'Men's Collective Struggles for Gender Justice' by Michael Flood in Handbook of Studies on Men & Masculinities ed. by Michael S. Kimmel, Jeff Hearn, R. W. Connell (Sage, 2005), ISBN: 9780761923691
• 'Divorce, the Law and Social Context' by Michael Flood in Acta Sociologica, Vol. 34, No. 4, 279-297 (1991)
• Lost Children: Condemning Children to Long-term Disadvantage Michael Flood, (Australia Institute, 2004)
• Michael Flood & Bob Pease, 'Undoing men’s privilege: and advancing gender equality in public sector institutions’ in Policy and Society vol. 24, n.4, 2005
• Angela Taft, Kelsey Hegarty and Michael Flood, 'Are men and women equally violent to intimate partners?' in Australian and New Zealand Journal of Public Health Volume 25 Issue 6 Page 498-500, December 2001

That list (which is incomplete) makes Flood a notable academic - if you continue to doubt this please RFC this article or ask for a third opinion or request an uninvolved sysop to overview. But bear in mind Blackworm that if your definition of WP:RS is applied to this article all of the other sources on a par with X&Y need to be removed, such as glennsacks.com (cited 3 times), fatherhoodcoalition.org (cited twice), Slate.Com, acfc.org. That would be bad for the article - but if you insist on this, all of the above sites have to go.

As it stands new sources for studies criticizing CTS have been found. These 2 or 3 lines are enough to make the piece comply with offical policy - NPOV - no more needs to be said. However more sources exist criticizing the CTS from articles in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence from 1992 to at least 1997. I feel that any more would be undue so I would advise leaving it at this. I am sorry that my post was so long, too many issues were raised for a shorter comment--Cailil ^talk 16:17, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

XYOnline does not "fall close" to being self-published, it is entirely[50% not entirely -BW] self-published, as I have demonstrated above. Flood, the "expert" you wish to quote from this source, is one of the two owners of XYOnline (a blog website), which apparently has no print version, no distribution, no editorial board, no staff, and no income.

In your quote of WP:V, you curiously truncated the last sentence, without using ellipses to alert the reader that you had done so. The full WP:V sentence is: However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so. I concur with this. If CTS (which was not self-published) has been criticized effectively, then it has been done in peer-reviewed sources (which I'm sure it has). The fact it has been done in self-published websites is irrelevant, no matter who has published that information. Surely a better source that a self-published website can be found if criticism of CTS is notable enough to be presented.

You seem to share an overly common but extremely inappropriate belief that editing Wikipedia articles is a kind of quid pro quo, where sentences with offending unreliable sources or non-neutral POV are to be bartered and traded. I do not share that view, thus your apparent threats to remove material you seem to believe resonates with my personal POV are completely powerless over me. I am helping build an neutral encyclopedia, that actually adheres to its stated goals; I'm not trying to suppress material I don't agree with, if that is your impression. Each source's reliability is to be evaluated separately, not grouped together based on what POV you believe them to be espousing. If you wish to discuss the reliability of a different source than the self-published website under discussion here, then I invite you to begin a new discussion section. Thank you. Blackworm (talk) 23:35, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

How about this, Cailil: we generally agree that if these self-published websites from otherwise notable parties (as shown in WP:RS) are to be cited, we disclose this in the article's prose; similar to attributing views when views are notably split. Thoughts? Blackworm (talk) 01:01, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

By "this" I mean the fact the sources are self-published (e.g., On his website, Flood claims...). Blackworm (talk) 01:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

There is no need for this. The reference link makes the source clear enough.Slp1 (talk) 11:56, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

N P O V declaration.

The Fathers Rights Movement in and of it's self is a P O V. Any contribution to an article in opposition of the goals of this (or any) "movement" would be in contrast to any sort of N P O V on this subject.

To maintain a Neutral Point of View on any movement, one must only stick to the citations of the goals, history and actions of the movement. Any "reaction" to this movement is, defacto, a Point of View.

I am, in no way, saying that one cannot be opposed to the movement. Merely that this article should not have ANY opinions either for or against the subject of the article. However, being that in this case, the subject of the article IS a collective opinion and the subsequent actions of its supporters, any citations of statements in opposition of the movements actions and/or opinions is not neutral to the article.

--Pappaapsu (talk) 21:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

New background and history section

Regarding this reversion of my reversion of this new section, I just thought I'd explain myself better and see if I could get a discussion going.

• As written, it's hard to read with all of the case citations interruptng the sentence flow. The citations should be in the references section to improve readability.
• It lists a bunch of case law precedents without really showing how they form the "history and backround" of the Fathers' rights movement - I understand how the law is the precursor, but feel that the article should make the connection more strongly. Some of the details might be better suited to an article about family law.
• It doesn't come close to representing a worldwide view - it's all about the US.

A word on my POV - I just want to defend myself against the assertion that my deletion was not NPOV, especially since you can tell from my user name that I am a woman, therefore obviously not a father. I'm not a mom (yet?) but I watch this article because of the heartbreaking trouble my fiance is going through with his ex just to spend time with his son. My bias is in favour of Fathers' rights. I really just want to help improve the article, which was why I deleted the section in the first place, so here I am belatedly following my own advice, and seeking consensus on the talk page. I still think that the article would benefit from having the section removed until the information can be edited and rewritten. Any other thoughts, opinions, etc.? Dawn Bard (talk) 13:52, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Attribution

Stephen Baskerville is clearly a member of the fathers' rights movement and as the author of Taken Into Custody, The War Against Fathers, Marriage and the Family and as a former president of the American Coalition of Fathers and Children, he clearly speaks for many members of the fathers' rights movement. Michael H 34 (talk) 19:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

External links

The external links critical are problematic from my mind, here's why:

• • First off, there are far more critical links than there are 'pro', presenting a problem of undue weight.
• Backlash: Angry Men's Movements, by Michael Flood
• How the fathers’ rights movement undermines the protections available to victims of violence and protects the perpetrators of violence, by Michael Flood
  • Both these are self-published by Michael Flood, the first on Xlibris the second on his personal website; the first is already embedded as references and may not be a reliable source due to self-publication. As a scholar, if the book was mainstream or even substantial minority, it would be published by a main-stream academic press. The second is quite short, and should be integrated as a reference rather than an external link (if judged reliable, still in question).
• Liznotes: The Liz Library
• Trish Wilson: The Women's Network
  • These are a personal webpages, collecting a bunch of links. Wikipedia is not a link directory, and in most cases we do not link to them either.
• Stop Family Violence
  • Advocacy site. WP:ELNO #4,
• An Open Letter To The Board Of The American Coalition Of Fathers And Children - Scroll Down
  • This seems to be a blog, and contains substanital advertising.
• Parental Alienation Syndrome And Alienated Children: Getting It Wrong In Child Custody Cases, by Dr. Carol Bruch
  • Parental alienation syndrome is not considered a valid diagnosis. This is also not a scholarly or informative resource.
• Abuse And Custody Disputes: Scientific And Legal Issues, by The Leadership Council
  • Leadership council is a very POV agency, and wikipedia is not a how to manual. This isn't really a reliable source and isn't really informative; it's a combination advocacy and legal instruction manual that is irrelevant outside of the United States, making it a violation of wikipedia's world-wide audience.
• Federazione Nazionale per la Bigenitorialità, one of the major Italian movements for coparenting.
  • This is in italian. Non-english sources are OK, but not external links. WLU (talk) 16:14, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

--The Flood and I believe the Trish Wilson links have alrady beend iscussed. Read a bit above your post please. NeoApsara (talk) 18:54, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Trish Wilson's comment seems to be addressed by the Manual of Style, which puts the standard appendicies in a specific order (here). If there's archived discussion, I'll try a quick review when I've the time, but a link directly to a section in the archive would be handier. WLU (talk) 19:47, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the external links sections needs pruning, but disagree with WLU's decision to delete all the 'critical' ones and not to touch the 'pro' ones, some of which are just as much advocacy and POV as the ones deleted. In any case, my view is that they should not be divided into two sections, and that Flood's website at least (a published academic in the field) offers important additional information that fully meets WP:EL --Slp1 (talk) 20:48, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

True enough, I looked over the last three "pro" and the were pretty crappy - two blog entries and some senate testimony that wasn't so grossly long it couldn't be used as a reference. Removed, it's just the DMOZ now. Flood could be supported per WP:EL, if it's judged reliable (don't know if he's famous enough to make the RS loophole), but it's primarily a source; it's better linked as an inline citation in my mind. WLU (talk) 02:08, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough to delete them all: I'm not a great fan of EL farms anyway, and this way the temptation to add more is gone. However, perhaps it's worth noting however that EL do not need to meet WP:RS criteria in terms of reliability etc needed for sourcing the text, and self-published sources can be included there. Having said that, Flood, as an academic who has written extensively in the field [12],[13][14] in my opinion easily meets the criteria for the reliability of self-published by an expert.Slp1 (talk) 02:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

On father's rights? A scholar can be notable for one field, but not qualify for another. I don't know 'cause I haven't looked into it; cursorily the stuff on masculinity suggests yes. I'd still rather avoid SPS if possible, are they redundant to a) anything else flood has written or b) anything anyone else has written? And do they represent the scholarly majority or is it undue weight to place a lot of emphasis or external linking on his opinion? Again, I'm asking 'cause I don't know (and haven't looked into it, they're my standard concerns for self published sources). WLU (talk) 12:22, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure if you are talking about EL links still, where this doesn't apply in any case. But anyway, I would strongly argue that Flood's extensive work in Masculinity, men's movements and violence including a recent chapter in this book [15] entitled "What's wrong with fathers' rights?" makes him an SPS expert in the field. Note that Glenn Sacks' books etc on men's rights have also been used to suggest that his blogs can be used here (as they are). I am very much less convinced by Phyllis Schlafly, whose webposts are also being used to support citations in the text (and there are others). User:Cailil makes more or less exactly the same point above about what being sauce for the goose should also be sauce for the gander.[16] However also note that the some of these citations are often being used to cite the "positions/opinions" of FRM supporters/critics for example, so that WP:SELFQUEST comes into play too. --Slp1 (talk) 13:27, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Funnily enough, and to answer another of your questions, I gave up editing this page because of the resistance of pro-FRM editors to the use of scholarly resources such as [17]. Unfortunately there is a preference to use this article as a soapbox (for and against) and to use advocacy texts such as Baskerville etc extensively. And you only need to read the comments on this page to see the extent of the problem: several editors believe that scholarly opinions that somehow "belittle" or are in "opposition of the movements actions" should not be included at all. --Slp1 (talk) 13:52, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

{Bing!}Horse pucky, scholarly sources are always the best choice for all articles. If you're talking about UNDUE regards the ELs, UNDUE does cover links as well (last sentence, second paragraph, "This applies not only to article text, but to images, external links, categories, and all other material as well"). If Flood's work is mainstream and scholarly, I still think those former links are better as sources - as a brief web-page and a paragraph, they'd easily be integrated if there's anything worth saying I think. Schafly (of Conservapedia fame?) is out unless published in a reliable source. I've not the time right now or in general to really look into it, but I'll see if I can make the time. Baskerville seems very over-cited throughout the page and the use of citation templates in general is quite poor. I'll try to address if I've the time. WLU (talk) 15:11, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I think we may be talking at cross-purposes: I am not arguing in any way for the return of the external links section, and instead am looking at reliable sourcing for the article itself. I agree that integrating important points and references into the article is to be preferred. As you say, and as I have argued here in the past, scholarly sources are clearly the best choices; unfortunately at one point the endless objections about any addition from them that could possibly be construed as anti-FR became too tedious. "Pro" edits from the same sources were welcomed, of course! Some fresh, independent eyes are always welcome; a pruning and a reworking seems in order to me, as well as improvements to the citation style that you mention.Slp1 (talk) 15:56, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Legal Changes section

Michael H has restored this section that I deleted yesterday claiming that it is not based on US information alone. Actually it is a classic example of Original Research and Synthesis entirely based on US court cases and as such doubly inappropriate. Please do not restore it without getting consensus here that it is an appropriate addition.Slp1 (talk) 19:31, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

If the information had not been cited, it would have been removed for this reason. Since the information had been cited, it had to based on the law of some country. I disagree that the information is relevant to the US only, and removed the sentences that applied only to the US. Even if you are correct that this is OR and SYN, it is appropriate to ignore these rules in order to improve the article. The information is clearly and obviously relevant background information, and more than one person believes this to be true because I am not the original contributor of this information. I am restoring it. Please do not delete this information without getting a consensus that the cited information should be removed. Michael H 34 (talk) 13:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Actually Original research is a non-negotiable core policy of Wikipedia and thus "it is appropriate to ignore these rules in order to improve the article" is 100% incorrect. Note the nutshell version of this policy "Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not clearly advanced by the sources", which this does: all the references are to court decisions, and there is not a single secondary or tertiary source making the claims in the paragraph.WP:PSTS And since US Court decisions only apply to the US, and Common Law is only used in certain parts of the world (ex British colonies in the main) then this section also does not represent a global perspective as we need to do in this article. I will leave you to remove the section this time; if you insist on maintaining your position that this original synthesis of primary sources is appropriate for the article I am certainly happy to post an inquiry on No original research noticeboard and get the opinion of other editors. And note also that I am not the only one who disagrees with this text being added.[18] (and see her post above). --Slp1 (talk) 16:43, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Statements in the citations like "i.e., no longer requiring courts of criminal jurisdiction for divorce. And to confirm this assertion", the use of court cases as sources (court cases would be primary documents), the gross over-focus on the United States (WP:CSB), improper directions like "For additional information about changes in the law, please see "No-fault divorce" below." and the statement "Even if you are correct that this is OR and SYN, it is appropriate to ignore these rules in order to improve the article" all suggest a revert is in order. Done. WLU (talk) 18:51, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

The consensus is clear. Removing the information is okay by me. Michael H 34 (talk) 21:30, 3 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Parents Rights

"Yet a recent Urban Institute study found that the Smith case typifies the way the foster care system harms children by disregarding the loving bonds they share with their fathers. " Michael H 34 (talk) 14:16, 5 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Michael H's recent edits

Once again, Michael H has taken upon himself to delete well-sourced information from highly reliable sources without discussion, apparently because he does not agree with the content[19], [20] [21] etc. Note this edit summary in particular, which "(Fathers can't be parents? Why?)" He also claims the several of the additions are "unsourced" or "not attributed" which they clearly are, given the citations following. If there are dead links, then that does not justify deletion of the information as he appears to claim here.[22] Where does it say in any policy or guidelines that reliable sources should be removed because the number of citations given introduces bias? [23] Unfortunately this is not the only page where these problems of editing (COI, POV, Original reserch) have surfaced. See for example [24] but there are others. Michael, please restore the well-sourced material you deleted. It may be that the phrasing of some could be improved to increase ease of understanding. It is clear, for example, that you are misunderstanding some of the sentences, and I am sure we can make them clearer if that it is the case. But let's discuss the problems here first. Wholesale deletion of well-sourced information from scholarly texts is not the answer. --Slp1 (talk) 16:09, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I have shown that Richard Collier's opinions are quoted and supported by critics of the fathers' rights movement. Roger Gay has stated that he is biased. You claim that Richard Collier's work is scholarly. That is your opinion and I disagree with you.

If Richard Collier states that fathers are encouraged by the government to have more contact with their children, then he doesn't even know what the fathers' rights movement is. In my opinion, several of the edits that you made are very confusing for readers of this article. Just because a sentence exists in a book (scholarly or not) doesn't mean that the sentence is relevant for an article.

The opinion that men are not interested in custody of their children is stated twice in this article.

The idea that fathers love their children is not mentioned. I recall that on this page, you have written that such a statement would be too biased for this article. 63.107.135.125 (talk) 17:02, 5 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

With all due respect, Michael...

• Collier and Sheldon are academics; their book is the result of an academic conference held at the Keele University [25]; it was published by Hart Publishing, a publisher of academic law books based in Oxford [26] and according to WorldCat is held at 173 University libraries around the world [27]. I think it is beyond doubt that this book is a reliable academic source, but if you really disagree, make a post at WP:RSN and I will be happy to abide by the result.
• "If Richard Collier states that fathers are encouraged by the government to have more contact with their children, then he doesn't even know what the fathers' rights movement is." "Roger Gay has stated that [Collier]] is biased." Your personal opinion of Collier and his ideas is irrelevant as is that of electrical engineer-come-fathers' rights activist Roger Gay, who, you will remember got blocked here for disruptive, POV pushing edits [28] And your disagreement with Collier's opinion/ideas doesn't give you the license to delete them. The key policy here is WP:V. "The threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth".
• You are on stronger ground when you say that the information in the article needs to be relevant and clear. I absolutely fail to see how the sourced sections such as [29][30] I added are not relevant but as I mentioned above, I am open to the idea that they need to be clearer. Once again, deleting them is not the solution this problem. Explain what is confusing on the talkpage and editors can work together to clarify the text.
• "The opinion that men are not interested in custody of their children is stated twice in this article". Please state your evidence for this; I don't see this opinion stated anywhere at all. But anyway, big deal, if it is sourced reliably. What is your policy-based issue with having a statement like this in the article twice? Personally disagreeing with it is not enough. Once again "The threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth".
• "The idea that fathers love their children is not mentioned". No it isn't, because including such a truism would be a classic example of the use of a rhetorical device to advocate a POV and thus totally contrary to WP policy. WP is not a place where you can do this, WP:NOTSOAPBOX and after 21 months on WP you must surely know this. --Slp1 (talk) 22:11, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Big deal? Just because a sentence exists in a book (scholarly or not) doesn't mean that the sentence is relevant for an article. The key Wikipedia policy is not verifiability, it is consensus.

I consider the unexplained and indefensible statement: "Men are encouraged, by society and by legal regulation, to be more involved as fathers" to be an extreme pollution of this article and by far the worst edit that I have ever encountered in all of my experience with Wikipedia, vandalism included. Michael H 34 (talk) 02:38, 8 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Where on earth do you get the idea that consensus is Wikipedia's key policy? It isn't. It is one of five policies about how to work (or not to work) with others. And then there are the four policies about content, which is what we are actually talking about here, as well as two global ones. In fact, even if you did, for example, get a consensus about something on this talk page it does not and cannot overrule the wider consensus about policies such as WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, WP:V etc that have been determined by the site. "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, can not over-ride community consensus on a wider scale".WP:CON

Like I said, it is irrelevant whether you find the statement ""Men are encouraged, by society and by legal regulation, to be more involved as fathers" to be "indefensible", "an extreme pollution" or the "worst edit" ever, unless you can produce some policy-based reasons for your objection to it.

I will, however, try to explain briefly the sentence more clearly to you.

In the 19th and early 20th century separation and divorce was possible but only on the grounds of matrimonial fault (violence, adultery etc) and at the beginning of this period giving custody to fathers was generally assumed. With time this tendency weakened with the "ideology of mother love", and during the early years of the 20th century it gradually became assumed that mothers would get custody (though not always if the mother had committed some 'fault' eg. adultery). Women forever remained economically dependent and tied to men after divorce during this period.

From about 1960s onward things changed: divorce was more easily available and increased dramatically and living together became more common. The concept of the "clean break" or "no fault" divorce arose, with the idea that people could and should move on from mistakes and be able to start again with their lives. As compared to pre-1950s law, (and it is this comparison that is important) the family law which developed from the 1960s on introduced these 'clean break' notions into law. But these "clean break" legal changes also affected fathers contact with their children. They gave the (financial, emotional??) ability and license for women who wished to have limited contact with their former husbands to have a "clean break" and do just that. And vice versa of course. However, countries also introduced increasingly extensive legal means to force fathers to pay child support payments in arrears, requiring in a very practical way, fathers to be involved with their children that they might not be seeing. Laws have also moved towards trying to get parents to sort out disagreements themselves rather than using the courts and to interpret the "best interest of the child" doctrine to mean that the child needs regular access to both parents. Once again the law and legal regulation have in theory at least increased the expected role of fathers as compared to pre-1950s law.

I don't necessarily expect you to agree with this because I am sure it is not your own, probably very painful, experience. But we are not writing about your personal experience but about the reasons why the fathers rights movement arose. Hopefully you understand that there is thinking and evidence behind the statement given. It has been sourced to an reliable academic source. There have been changes in legal regulations which expect fathers to be more involved, though perhaps not as much as you would desire, or in the ways you would desire, I'm guessing. --Slp1 (talk) 04:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

• * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I agree that Verifiability is not Wikipedia's key policy.

My personal experiences are irrelevant, and I consider any suggestions that I am writing "about my personal experiences" (I have never been divorced and I live with my wife and children) as an attempt to diminish the weight of my views, similar to the attempt (above) to diminish the weight of Roger Gay's view through name calling.

I continue to consider the phrase: "Men are encouraged, by society and by legal regulation, to be more involved as fathers" to be an awful and inappropriate edit for this article. Changes in legal regulations have separated fathers and children.

In fact, you removed from this article some of the changes in law that are pertinent to the eventual formation of the fathers' rights movement.

The statement you added to the article which included: "legal regulations expect fathers to be more involved" does not explain how "legal regulations expect fathers to be more involved."

The statement you added to the article which included: "legal regulations expect fathers to be more involved" is inappropriate because legal regulations do not expect anything. Legal regulations, such as no-fault divorce, can create or reinforce societal norms.

The statement you added to the article which included: "legal regulations expect fathers to be more involved" (the same legal regulations that provide for "visitation time") has not been connected to "the reasons why the fathers' rights movement arose." I have strong concerns that such a connection would be the result of synthesis, and that such a connection would be given undue weight.

The statement you added to the article which included: "legal regulations expect fathers to be more involved" is based on a point of view and it is unattributed. This point of view implies that men have been less involved with their children, and that men would "break clean" from their children in the absence of legal regulations. The point of view is biased against fathers and biased for government regulations.

The "war" on fathers, marriage and the family and the emergence of the fathers' rights movement is the result of outcomes associated with changes in legal regulations that allow fathers (and some mothers) to be separated from their children, and this article would be greatly improved if this idea was made perfectly clear to the reader. Michael H 34 (talk) 17:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

• First let me apologize for incorrectly guessing the reason for your strong opinions on this article. I am very sorry for my error.
• Second, I also apologize for misleading you above when I said "the key policy here is verifiability". I used "key" in the sense of "most relevant" and "here" as "in this situation", and was trying to convey "the most relevant policy in this situation is verifiability", not that verifiability is the "key" policy on WP as a whole. I have only just realized the ambiguity of my remark.
• Third, yes I did delete a chunk of US-centric Original Research and synthesis, and when you reverted User:WLU deleted it again, concurring with my view that it was inappropriate. See [31] for details
• Fourth, the disputed sentence is "Men are encouraged, by society and by legal regulation, to be more involved as fathers at a time when, in certain ways, it is more difficult for them to do so due to increased divorce and separation. refs given Collier, R; Sheldon S (2006). Fathers' Rights Activism and Law Reform in Comparative Perspective. Hart Publishing and Unfamiliar territory: The issue of a father's rights and responsibilities covers more than just the media-highlighted subject of access to his children, The Guardian,2006-11-01. It is not clear to me why you quote part of this sentence and then provide four criticisms of a phrase "legal regulations expect fathers to be more involved" that has never been suggested for inclusion. To respond as best I can therefore...

Comment 1: You would like more explanation of the legal changes? Here are some useful references, all of which support the idea that the post 1950s legal changes including no-fault and best interests of the child legislation (among others) changed the assumption regarding the participation of fathers in bringing up their children as compared to previous legislation

• [32] Divorce in Psychosocial Perspective: Theory and Research, Josef Guttmann, Lawrence Erlbaum Associates, (1993)
• [33] Silent Revolution, Herbert Jacob, University of Chicago Press 1988
• [34] The Illusion of Equality: The Rhetoric and Reality of Divorce Reform, Martha Fineman, University of Chicago Press, 1991
• [35] Changing Families, Changing Responsibilities: Family Obligations Following Divorce and Remarriage, Lawrence H. Ganong, Marilyn Coleman, Lawrence Erlbaum Associates, 1999

Comment 2. The proposed sentence doesn't include the word "expect", so your comment objecting to the word appears moot.

Comment 3. It could only be original synthesis if I had put two separate sources together to form a new original thought or idea. But I didn't. The entire thought comes from Collier and Sheldon, "The convergence of cultural and legal exhortations for men to be more involved fathers with the greater fragility of their connections to their children is one which has ploughed fertile ground for the growth of fathers' rights agendas." Fathers' Rights Activism and Law Reform in Comparative Perspective p12 and The findings of therapeutic, psychological and sociological research suggest a qualitative shift in many men's emotional relationships with their children and commitments to "family life". Society is demanding that men become more involved as fathers precisely at a time when, in certain respects, it is more difficult for them to do so. The current struggles of the fathers' rights movement can be understood as part of this complex and painful renegotiation of intimate relations against a backdrop of changing lifestyles and expectations. from the Guardian article. You will also note both connect these comments directly to the issue of fathers' rights movements and why it has grown and developed.

Comment 4: the actual proposed sentence "Men are encouraged, by society and by legal regulation, to be more involved as fathers at a time when...." is, contrary to what you say, carefully attributed to two scholars in the field, and "Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available" WP:V. Your other critiques appear to be related to the sentence not even proposed for inclusion.

Your final comment was"The "war" on fathers, marriage and the family and the emergence of the fathers' rights movement is the result of outcomes associated with changes in legal regulations that allow fathers (and some mothers) to be separated from their children, and this article would be greatly improved if this idea was made perfectly clear to the reader. Sadly I believe this comment cuts to the quick of this dispute about your deletion of well-sourced sentences; your ongoing desire (despite protests here and on other talkpages by several editors) to promote your POV about the Fathers' rights movement and other related subjects. We are not and cannot be a soapbox for you to make anything "perfectly clear to the reader" about the ""war" on fathers, marriage and the family."

I think it is time for a third opinion --Slp1 (talk) 03:34, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

In my view, you apologized for the wrong reason. You could have apologized for trying to diminish the weight of my view based on irrelevant suppositions. Yet, you have now accused me of using Wikipedia as a "soapbox...to make [something] 'perfectly clear to the reader'", which in my view is an improvement of the article, and something that I am encouraged to do. Michael H 34 (talk) 14:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Please read what I wrote above. "I don't necessarily expect you to agree with this [explanation of divorce laws etc] because I am sure it is not your own, probably very painful, experience". It has nothing to do with the weight of your views on this article, and everything to do with trying to show some understanding/empathy for what might lead you to have difficulty accepting more mainstream views of divorce law etc. Misplaced it appears, but it was kindly meant.

And yes, I do think that while it is an admirable goal to make this article as clear as possible, it is notc appropriate to seek to use WP to attempt to mold this article to your personal opinions by arguing to include original research and synthesis because it "improves the article" (see [36]), deleting sourced information you dislike as we have been discussing above, and introducing your own commentary and opinions as noted in the edit I discuss immediately below this.--Slp1 (talk) 14:59, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

In this edit [37] Michael claims to be deleting bias because "men's relationships with their children have not always been fragile". Not only does this passage not state that men`s relationships with their children have ever been fragile, but in fact he is deleting the sourced opinions of the "Other commentators" mentioned at the start of the sentence and apparently introducing his own opinion that demographic changes etc have "separated fathers and children". His error is somewhat understandable given the fact there were no citations for that section of the article at the time of his edit. He had deleted them here [38]as part of the disputed deletions above. I have restored the sourced opinion --Slp1 (talk) 14:59, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I accept your apology. I ask rhetorically, Why did you attempt to diminish the weight of my views by stating that I am not "mainstream?"

It is not "opinion" that divorce has separated fathers and children.

I replaced the words "men's relationships" with "fathers' bonds", which more accurately reflected the cited authors' words: "paternal bonds." Michael H 34 (talk) 15:39, 10 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Thank you for accepting the apology and for your useful recent edit to the article. I won't be drawn into the Strawmen arguments and misleading rhetorical question in the rest of your post. I have never stated that you are not "mainstream", and discussing the truth (or otherwise) of the statement "divorce separates fathers and children" is not relevant or necessary for our purposes. The issue with that edit, as you know, was that you introduced unsourced information into the article.--Slp1 (talk) 16:33, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for my lack of precision above. I agree that you did not call me "not mainstream." You stated that the viewpoints of others are "more mainstream." It is with respect and kindness that I note that what you consider to be "more mainstream" is based on your point of view. 63.107.135.125 (talk) 17:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Not really, I'm afraid; the "more mainstream" view of the history of divorce law can be determined more empirically than you suggest, by consulting multiple reference texts and books and seeing what they say, just as I did above. But this is off topic, I fear.--Slp1 (talk) 19:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Richard Collier is not "more mainstream." Roger Gay already noted above that Richard Collier argues against fathers' rights. Michael H 34 (talk) 22:37, 10 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Please read what I say. I didn't mention Richard Collier; I said that I consulted multiple reference texts about the history of divorce law. The references I consulted are linked to above.--Slp1 (talk) 00:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

All of the controversial edits (these edits introduced extreme bias into the article in my view and Roger Gay's view) are sourced by Richard Collier and Sally Sheldon.

• the unclear "new victims" phrase introduced bias
• the completely unexplained phrase "when they cannot" [parent] introduced innuendo about fathers (at least this innuendo was removed through clarification)
• the still unexplained and confusing phrase about how "legal regulations" encourage fathers to become more involved as parents 63.107.135.125 (talk) 15:57, 11 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

And yet it is interesting, isn't it, that there is other information in this article cited to Collier and Sheldon book that you have no objection to. There is material you like of theirs and material you don't. Isn't it possible that they, as academics, may have a more neutral, nuanced view of the movement, than you, as an admitted supporter does? But if your issue really is the clarity of the sentences, then, as I have said several times above, let's work on doing that just that. --Slp1 (talk) 03:05, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Articles by Collier, Richard; Sheldon, Sally in The Guardian promote a POV that family policy favored fathers - i.e. that fathers' rights activists are merely complaining that their advantageous positions w.r.t. family policy have been diminished. This is a biased pov from a source that (according to my read of the reliable source discussion related to this article) is not classified as a reliable source. The inclusion of that pov in the article is not npov. Rogerfgay 13:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

...the article cited expresses a clear bias that has been transferred into the Wikipedia article. An article characterizing the battle for fathers' rights as a reaction to diminished advantage shows extreme bias. Rogerfgay 13:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Michael H 34 (talk) 22:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Once Roger Gay as become an "established expert on the topic of the article" by having relevant work "published by reliable third-party publications" WP:V we can include his original research and opinion in the article. But not now. Sorry.--Slp1 (talk) 00:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

SLP1's opinion here is dismissive of the opinion of another editor. Furthermore it is not appropriate for you to accuse me of molding this article. I refrain from saying the same about you. It is unwelcoming. Michael H 34 (talk) 13:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Dismissive, perhaps. But with good reason, I fear. Roger Gay's opinions that reliably sourced academic viewpoints should not be included in the article because he finds them a "biased pov" is totally contrary to WP policies of WP:NPOV and WP:V. And his statement that "the inclusion of that pov in the article is not npov" is a total non-sequitur in WP terms. --Slp1 (talk) 03:05, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

It is POV to state that society "encourages fathers to be more involved...", but it is absolutely absurd POV that legal regulations establishing no-fault divorce, the best interest of the child standard based on decisions made by government officials rather than parents, and one-parent custody with visitation for the other parent can be painted as "encouraging fathers to be more involved..." because some 14% "visitation" time, rather than zero visitation time, is "fobbed" (the description I have seen used by one member of the fathers' rights movement) on fathers.

Stephen Baskerville has proposed that the influence of social engineers on government policy be reduced, and Richard Collier, the author of the proposed POV edit, is considered a social engineer.

I question why this edit should be included in this article. Michael H 34 (talk) 14:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Michael H 34 has reverted the edit of User: Advocate70, an independent editor (and a WP:Third Opinion giver apparently,) who had restored some of the disputed content determining that it was well sourced and reliable.[[39] In his edit summary Michael claims again that he is removing bias. In fact, what he has done, yet again, is to remove the clearly attributed and sourced opinions of a reliable academic source (Collier and Sheldon) The sentence even begins "They [other commentators] also view....." Michael, you cannot delete attributed opinions that you consider biased from the article. Read the sentence carefully... nobody is saying that C and S are right in their opinions but they do have the right to their opinion in this article. You cannot delete content because you disagree with their opinions. Note this from WP:NPOV policy "The acronym NPOV does not mean "no points of view". The elimination of article content cannot be justified under this policy by simply labeling it "POV"." --Slp1 (talk) 03:31, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I politely disagree.

I am encouraged to delete extremely bad content. Including an edit simply because it is reliably sourced is what is completely not justified. It is indefensible. The edit that was removed was insufficiently attributed, extremely vague and as a result, extremely confusing for readers.

Whether or not I disagree with Collier's opinion about legal regulations is irrelevant. I disagree with Michael Flood's opinions, but I made them more clear to the reader. Michael Flood's opinions are well attributed.

A series of edits, all based on the same source (Collier and Sheldon), have been very questionable.

• the unclear "new victims" phrase introduced bias about fathers
• the completely unexplained phrase about fathers in a previous version of the proposed edit: "...legal regulations encourage fathers to parent when they cannot." introduced innuendo and bias about fathers into the article (To be fair, at least this innuendo has been removed in the proposed edit through clarification. However, a prior version of the proposed edit had no attribution for the opinion.)
• The proposed edit is still extremely vague with respect to how legal regulations encourage. It is indefensible.

The proposed edit is horrible. Michael H 34 (talk) 15:54, 12 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34 Michael H 34 (talk) 17:01, 12 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

I am unclear what you are saying, Michael. Are you saying that you "politely disagree" with WP policy? Because you have responded to a quote from NPOV saying that you cannot simply delete sourced content on "pov" grounds, (and in this case even clearly indicated as an opinion) by saying you and politely disagree and immediately (yet again) that the disputed sentences are biased (ie of POV). You also mention that the sentences are unclear, which is reasonable. Once again, if clarity is really your concern we can work on that.

BTW I note that User: Advocate70 has restored his/her edit. I agree with this as it is a reliably sourced, notable academic view. Please do not delete it again.--Slp1 (talk) 14:08, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I politely disagree with you. Verifiability does not trump all other Wikipedia policies. Michael H 34 (talk) 22:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Another strawman. Who said it did? --Slp1 (talk) 02:31, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

No, you never said this. However, based on your comments on this page, I personally believe that this is your view. Michael H 34 (talk) 22:17, 14 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

I have reworked the section. The proposed edit has been retained in a more acceptable form. Michael H 34 (talk) 23:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Acceptable to you but not to me, unfortunately. Collier and Sheldon are not sociologists but law professors. I have reworked the sentence again to fit the sources given. Since these comments are to be attributed to them specifically, let's have their views. BTW, I find it fascinating that attribution to specific authors is required by you for many of the ideas you consider critical (e.g. Collier, Sheldon, Flood, Coltrane etc), while pro-father's rights writers, such Baskerville, are often allowed to opine on the subject without attribution at all.

I have deleted this addition [40], which can be found here [[41]. The book is not referring to the FRM at all at this point, and is instead talks about the increased interest in custody among men. I don't doubt, personally, that the two are related, but the authors don't make that connection so neither can we. It would be WP:OR and particularly WP:SYNT to include this commentary. The edit was a word for word copy of the original text, making it a copyright violation too, though of course this could be easily fixed if it wasn't for the Original Research problem. --Slp1 (talk) 02:31, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Frustration restored instead of dissonance: dissonance means inconsistency between the beliefs one holds or between one's actions and one's beliefs. Neither is really present here. The authors characterize fathers as having uniform beliefs and a desire to have uniformity between their beliefs and their actions, but they are prevented in the second case by factors caused by legal and social structures. It is this frustration and its subsequent motivation of the movement to which the authors refer. I think that word gives a better sense of the author's thrust.

As for the no-fault proposal, I think that is quite interesting and adds much to the article, Michael H, consider restoring it.--2008Olympian _chitchat^seemywork 03:03, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, thank you Advocate/Olympian (you had me confused there!). I was trying to fix an otherwise unwieldy sentence, actually removing the unwieldly part and keeping the "frustration" works just fine.--Slp1 (talk) 23:21, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Michael H. You might want to read WP:LEAD. The lead is the place to summarize the article, not an introduction. So all the discussion about civil rights vs social movements and your latest edit [42] are not appropriate for the lead since they aren't mentioned in the text. The lead must of course also be of NPOV, which in my view it clearly isn't at present, particularly with your latest addition. BTW, I think it is too bad that you reverted Advocate70 again here [43] --Slp1 (talk) 23:21, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

This edit [44] is well attributed and therefore the article retains a NPOV. Michael H 34 (talk) 15:51, 15 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34 I have moved the new sentence from the lead. However, the discussion about civil rights vs social movements is necessary for the lead. It is the definition of the article.Michael H 34 (talk) 16:22, 15 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

I welcome Advocate70's input. The stylistic changes in this edit [45] reduced the neutrality of the article in favor of fathers' rights through the change in attribution. Michael H 34 (talk) 15:55, 15 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Question about WP 3O request

A request for a Wikipedia:Third opinion was listed four days ago. Has this dispute been resolved by the participants or should it remain listed? (I will watchlist this page for replies.) — Athaenara ✉ 04:22, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes I would still very much like a third opinion.--Slp1 (talk) 23:07, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I see that Michael H 34's 21:49 UTC through 22:41 UTC (inclusive) 14 September 2008 edits comply with this encyclopedia's neutral point of view policy rather than appearing to argue from the position of advocacy of the view of any organization (for example, "state" conveys the neutrality which "point out" does not).

I have read the discussion above and, frankly, if anyone asked me for a concise summary of the past ten days' dispute, I could not provide one, but the MH edits I have reviewed look encyclopedic to me.

If either or both of you wish to post a brief summary (no more than one or two sentences each) of any unresolved aspects of the dispute, please do so below. — Athaenara ✉ 01:05, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, well I suppose it might have been easier if someone had dropped by a bit faster when I actually posted the third opinion request! Oh well. One of the initial deletions of material appears resolved. Remaining is the question of whether the material in these deletions [46] [47] should be restored. They appear to be well-sourced and in fact I can add another academic reference [48] to support the first of the two. --Slp1 (talk) 03:03, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

'* * * * * * * * * * * * *

The original issue has been resolved. The phrase "...legal regulations encourage fathers to be more involved as parents" was extremely vague, highly biased, confusing for readers and absolutely completely unnecessary for the primary point of the sentence. In my commentary, I noted that legal regulations are a part of society. The original edit also lacked attribution.

Summary of the new issues - I apologize that this is more than two sentences

I was responsible for this edit: [49] I believe that this edit was a good one.

The phrase "family law has swung to far" is overly vague and adds nothing to the article. Nearly a year ago on this page, editor Roger Gay also objected to this phrase noting that "[the characterization of] the battle for fathers' rights as a reaction to diminished advantage shows extreme bias." It turns out that the source for the sentence, Richard Collier and Sally Sheldon, are law professors.

The phrase "new victims" is particularly objectionable. It is belittling of father' rights and highly biased. It implies that members of the fathers' rights groups claim victimhood, a very loaded phrase. It is unbelievable to me that members of fathers' rights groups state something that would imply that they claim victimhood. In my view, the sentence includes false attribution. Fathers' rights groups do not claim that they are the new victims (and all that these loaded words imply). I have noted that verifiability does not trump all other Wikipedia policies and therefore I ask editors, what is the purpose of including this phrase?

It is ironic to me that Slp1 deleted a well-sourced sentence about women in the fathers' rights movement in the very same edit that Slp1 states that well-sourced material should be restored based on the fact that it is well sourced. It is additionally ironic because I have not seen any other reason for including the "new victim" sentence except for its verifiability.

The American Coalition of Fathers and Children, the largest shared parenting group in the world, was founded by a woman and I have read that about half of its members are women.

The sentence implying a "diminished advantage for fathers" and "these groups are claiming victimhood" besides being biased add no value to the article and in my view, the sentence should not be included. Michael H 34 (talk) 15:32, 15 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

This is the other edit that Slp1 has asked for a third party opinion: [50] not this one from above[51], in which two intermediate versions are not shown. Michael H 34 (talk) 15:32, 15 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Actually Michael, I did not delete the information about women in the movement. Look carefully at the bottom of the edit you deleted, it was always there.[52]--Slp1 (talk) 20:59, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree that you did not delete the information about women in the movement, and I apologize for my mistake. Michael H 34 (talk) 21:55, 15 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

The crux of the question as far as I am concerned is whether claims of "bias" or "not adding anything" etc by an editor is enough to delete the analysis of multiple academics from reliable sources. --Slp1 (talk) 21:09, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

In my view, verifiability does not trump all other Wikipedia policies. Michael H 34 (talk) 21:46, 15 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Once again, nobody has said it does. In fact, WP:V is the least of it. There's WP:NPOV "The elimination of article content cannot be justified under this policy by simply labeling it "POV", and "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source"; there's WP:NOR which says "In general the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers"which these references all are. And finally there is WP:SOAP "an article can report objectively about [advocacy etc], as long as an attempt is made to describe the topic from a neutral point of view." You have cannot simply delete reliably sourced information, just because you view it as "biased". --Slp1 (talk) 21:27, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

• I relisted the dispute for further attention from other WP:3O volunteers. — Athaenara ✉ 00:04, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Third opinion

1. New victims phrase. I think it can be included. It is well sourced with academic references and provides a specific reason for the increasing presence of fathers' rights group. To me, the current wording makes it reasonably clear that family law has not necessarily swung in the opposite directions but that there are some groups that feel that it might have and that this may be why the we have now have fathers' rights groups.

1. It is not clear to me which particular statement is the second bone (of contention). Assuming it is Glenn Sacks, a prominent fathers' rights activist, has criticized persons he has called "the lunatic fringe of the fathers' rights movement", who describe the perpetrators of violent crimes against family court judges and others as "some sort of freedom fighters."[19], I feel that this is a borderline include. It is in context and directly refers to the Fathers' rights activists in various countries have been accused and/or convicted of criminal activities, including stalking and harassment text before it and, clearly, the lunatic fringe in question is the people convicted of criminal etc activities. However, a lot rides on Glenn Sacks. Is he prominent enough (was he the President or whatever of a major group, does he do the talking head bit on tv, etc.) for the comment to be included as a supporting comment? All in all, I'm not sure the quote adds a whole lot to the text so, unless Mr Sacks is notable, I'd consider dropping it. --Regents Park (count the magpies) 21:38, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

(If I got the wrong statement, point me to the right one and I'll take a crack at it. --Regents Park (count the magpies) 21:39, 16 September 2008 (UTC))

(Did I mention that I read the article and thought it very well written? --Regents Park (count the magpies) 21:42, 16 September 2008 (UTC))

Thanks RegentsPark for your opinion/ Funnily enough I was busy finding more reliable sources that concur with the men as victims motif described by Collier and Sheldon, including some father's rights groups themselves. I list them here for my own future reference. [53][54] You seem to be in agreement with WLU above that the Glenn Sacks part should go (and in fact WLU deleted it a while ago), but actually that wasn't part of the dispute, really. Sacks is a prominent FR activist in the US at least, and he was responding to the actual bone of contention here, which is the deletion of the mention of the word "murder" after stalking and harassment, referring to the murder committed by Darren Mack a FR Activist, which received some publicity, and was the cause of some controversy because various FR people praised his actions. see [55] This was the 'lunatic fringe' that Sacks is referring to. I must say I rather liked the little Sacks section, but it was totally without context without the detail regarding the seriousness of the charge involved.--Slp1 (talk) 22:09, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Me, I never advocate murder! Like I said, despite the differences between the editors, or perhaps because of these differences, the article is excellent! --Regents Park (count the magpies) 01:52, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Slp1 has changed one of the elements in dispute in the 3rd party opinion that Slp1 requested. Slp1's dispute had been with the edit of WLU.

This is the other edit that Slp1 has asked for a third party opinion: [56] not this one from above[57], in which two intermediate versions are not shown.

Yes, Glenn Sacks is a prominent member of the fathers' rights movement and his views are notable.

It is synthesis to connect Darren Mack to the fathers' rights movement based on his attendance at one or more meetings. I also disagree with Slp1 with respect to Glenn Sack's statement being totally without context.

These sources do not serve as a second source for the Collier "new victim" sentence. [58][59]

The "new victims" sentence has at least two major problems: (1) the implication of diminished advantage from the phrase "family law has swung to far" is commentary about family law and not about the fathers' rights movement at all, (2) the "new victims" phrase artificially bolsters the implication of diminished advantage. Who were old victims? Aren't there always some victims? These are questions that arise from this overly vague phrase "new victims."

These problems are compounded by the false attribution.

The "claims of victimhood" statement in [60] shows bias on the part of the author, but "claims of victimhood" is not the same as "new victims."

There is nothing about "new victims" here either: [61]. It is true that Mark Charalambous stated that men are victims, but men are not "such groups" [fathers' rights groups].

I wonder if the "new victim" sentence was written for the law professors' book flap. Michael H 34 (talk) 03:03, 17 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

What rot, Michael, on multiple fronts. The edits I asked for a third opinion on have always been your edits, and nothing to do with WLU's. Check them above. The "new victim" statement does not come from the book flap, as you would find out if you actually read the book. As for the rest, I wasted enough time on contradicting your arguments. I don't have time at present, but I will be restoring versions of the sentences proposed in a few days or so. I promise I will take to heart some of the concerns you have expressed here when I do so. --Slp1 (talk) 20:54, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Still, it wouldn't surprise me if the "new victim" sentence did appear on the book flap of the lawyers' book.

Slp1: "The edits I asked for a third opinion on have always been your edits, and nothing to do with WLU's. Check them above." This is completely untrue. Removing Glenn Sack's statement about the lunatic fringe of the fathers' rights movement was WLU's edit. It was only represented as being my edit when two intermediate edits were ignored. Your request for a 3rd party opinion was then changed by you, when you brought up Darren Mack.

Here it is again: This is the other edit that Slp1 has asked for a third party opinion: [62] not this one from above[63], which was included in the original request for a 3rd party opinion and which do not show two intermediate versions.

Slp1: "I promise I will take to heart some of the concerns you have expressed here when I do so." I hope so. Edits that include "new victims" or "such groups state that family law has swung too far in the other direction" are objectionable for the reasons stated above. Including an edit simply because it is verifiable and from a reliable source, is not supported by Wikipedia policy. Not only was no compelling reason provided for including the sentence, but no reason at all was provided for including the sentence, despite all of the valid concerns provided by Roger Gay and me.

"Law professors Richard Collier and Sally Sheldon state that members of the fathers' rights movement claim that men have become victims as a result of changes in family law." This is a more acceptable sentence, if it is verifiable. The original sentence was backdoor commentary by law professors about legal regulations, which was off-topic, vague, created innuendo and not attributed to the law professors at all but was falsely attributed to fathers' rights groups. Michael H 34 (talk) 14:54, 18 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

I have no idea what you are talking about, Michael. I have never said that you removed Sacks comments, because you didn't.[64]. Look carefully, the Sacks comments are present both before and after in the edits I asked for comment about.

Unfortunately, while I will bear in mind your views about the sentences, continuing to argue that we cannot include what you consider to be objectionable is not going to fly. I do not have to provide compelling reasons for including sourced information, though the reverse is true (we cannot remove of sourced information just by claiming bias). It is clear that so far you have failed to convince any non-involved editor of the merit of your arguments for inclusion and non-inclusion.[65][66][67] And please note that there are now multiple sources that discuss the FRM in context with the "victimhood" motif that you dislike, not just Collier and Sheldon. See [68], [69][70][71] --Slp1 (talk) 22:13, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Slp1:"I do not have to provide compelling reasons for including sourced information, though the reverse is true (we have to justify the removal of sourced information per NPOV)."

You have provided NO reason to include the awful sentence.

I have provided the reasons for my objections.

Including the sentence is not in accordance with Wikipedia policy because it elevates verifiability over all other Wikipedia policies including consensus. Roger Gay also objected to the edit.

I object to the proposed "new victims" and "FRGs say that legal regulations have swung too far" for the following reasons: It is confusing for readers. It is vague. It is off-topic backdoor commentary about legal regulations. It creates innuendo and it is biased. Michael H 34 (talk) 22:44, 19 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Okay, here is a reason. I am helping to write an encyclopedia. This encyclopedia aims to bring free information to people via the internet. All articles written here aim to to be a summary of the existing knowledge about topics, and we aim to use the highest quality resources possible, including books published by university presses, academics etc to source our articles. The sentences that you consider "awful", "indefensible", "a pollution" or whatever the latest epithet, are in fact the views of multiple reputable scholars in the field. You and Roger Gay may dislike their ideas, and disagree with them as strongly as you like, but that doesn't matter. IDONTLIKEIT isn't an argument for non-inclusion, and independent editors have agreed with me on this. I urge you strongly to accept the conclusion of the third opinion; but if you don't then please take it further in the dispute resolution process rather than continuing to make the same arguments here over and over again. On the other hand, you might actually want to wait till I make some edits before continuing your protests.--Slp1 (talk) 23:08, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Once again Slp1 presents no reason to include the edit other than verifiability. Slp1 focused on the epithets, but ignored the following: It is confusing for readers. It is vague. It is off-topic backdoor commentary about legal regulations. It creates innuendo and it is biased. Michael H 34 (talk) 23:21, 19 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

You can repeat these points ad nauseaum but nobody has ever agreed with you, [72][73][74] except Roger Gay, a fellow member of the FRM, who concured with your POV, just before he was blocked for disruptive editing and POV pushing[75], and who was later found to be using sockpuppets.[76]. Either give it up, or take it to dispute resolution. I am not engaging in this pointless discussion any further.--Slp1 (talk) 01:20, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Here's a summary: I objected to a sentence. I removed the sentence and provided my reasons. You stated that I couldn't remove the sentence. You tried to diminish the weight of my views, without focusing on the sentence at issue. In fact, you never provided any reason why the sentence should be included other than that it was verifiable. You requested a third party opinion. You changed the request. You stated incorrectly that I was the author of all of the edits for which you requested a third party opinion. You've declared some kind of consensus victory and declared that further discussion is pointless.

Consensus is not decided by voting. The issues of the sentence at issue remain and they have never been challenged. If the sentence appears again in the article, I will delete it, and I will do so based purely on Wikipedia policy. Michael H 34 (talk) 01:04, 22 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

And here's my summary. You removed well-sourced sentences from notable academics in the field stating at various times that they were not from scholarly sources (untrue)[77], "unsourced" (untrue)[78], "synthesis" (untrue),[79] "biased",(not a reason for deletion), "a pollution" etc (not a reason for deletion), "confusing/vague" (not a reason for deletion, but a good reason to improve the sentences which I suggested multiple times). You reinserted original research and synthesis saying that it "improved the article"[80] and introduced unverifiable information into the article[81] With all due respect, I suggest that it might be worth considering that not all your edits are in fact "based purely on Wikipedia policy" as confirmed by the fact that none of the three editors visiting this page has agreed with your reasoning about them. If you disagree with my and their determination on this matter(which does represent the consensus at present, like it or not) then feel free to take it further in dispute resolution. But also please understand that if you don't do this, and if you do continue to delete well-sourced information or act in other ways to promote your personal viewpoint on this or any other page contrary to WP policies on neutral point of view, consensus etc, then I will need to pursue these avenues myself. --Slp1 (talk) 02:54, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Slp1: "Remaining is the question of whether the material in these deletions [82] [83] should be restored." <<<< This is the request for 3rd party opinion made by Slp1 and copied from above.

This edit [84] (same as the bold edit above) does not show two intermediate versions. WLU removed the Glenn Sacks material: [85]. Michael H 34 (talk) 23:03, 19 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

I'm sorry, Michael, but you still seem to be confused about this. The edit that I asked about [86] is composed of this edit[87], this edit [88], and this edit [89], all your edits done between 14:08 and 14:13 on September 5th. The Sacks material was present before and after these edits. WLU deleted it an hour later.[90] I have never thought or suggested that you deleted it. I never asked for a third opinion on its deletion. It came up because it seems that RegentsPark was confused by its highlighting in the diff, and thought that it was part of the disputed material, not noticing that it was present in both the before and after edits. (A similar mistake to the one you made when you thought I had deleted the women in the movement material). I made it clear in responding to RegentsPark that WLU made the edit, and that it wasn't part of our dispute.[91] --Slp1 (talk) 02:54, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

You're right about this, and I am wrong. I apologize. I also thought that the lunatic fringe statement by Glenn Sacks was part of your request for a third party opinion. I saw red in the right-hand column of the edit difference and didn't appreciate the significane of the little plus sign. Michael H 34 (talk) 14:03, 22 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

This section needs to be changed or eliminated.

"Liberal fathers’ rights advocates support equality with regard to gender roles, arguing that both sexes can be nurturers and breadwinners, and thus joint custody is in the best interest of the child because both men and women can be caregivers. They argue that they remain true to the original vision of feminism in seeking to free both men and women from stereotypical roles and from legal discrimination.[14][11] In contrast, the conservative wing of the Fathers’ rights movement decry the breakdown of the “traditional” family, and the gender-based roles implicit within it, viewing feminism as an enemy. They maintain that joint custody is in the best interest of the child because men and women are not interchangeable, and thus access to both parents provides the best environment for children.[14][11][13]"

In my view, the section is overly simplistic, confusing, and given undue weight. It also includes no attribution. To start,

(1) Some, possibly most, of the people who believe that both men and women can be both nurturers and breadwinners may also believe that children need more than nurturing and breadwinning. They may believe that children need parental authority and that both genders are capable of asserting parental authority for the best interest of children. In addition, they may also believe that there are gender-correlated differences in parenting style. (2) Some, possibly most, of the people who believe that both men and women can be both nurturers and breadwinners may also view current feminists as enemies, because current feminists oppose a rebuttable presumption for shared parenting. They may believe that the "original goals of feminism" have changed.

Michael H 34 (talk) 14:27, 22 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

This sentence is also a concern:

"Such groups argue that fathers are victimized by gender bias and discrimination in family law,[9][11][4][14] and that sole custody decisions are a denial of equal rights.[14][15][13][16] "

In particular, such groups state that mothers who are primary breadwinners are discriminated against. Michael H 34 (talk) 14:33, 22 September 2008 (UTC) Michael

This is a much better sentence: Such groups state that fathers are victimized by gender bias and discrimination in family law,[9][11][4][14] and that sole custody decisions are a denial of parental rights.[14][15][13][16] Michael H 34 (talk) 14:38, 22 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Thank you, Michael, for your apology and also for discussing your concerns about my recent edits here on the talkpage. I appreciate both.

To summarize, your viewpoint is that the sections added are "simplistic, confusing, and given undue weight" and include "no attribution". Then you describe the specific problems you see need correction in the sentences, describing your views of what some and/or most people believe about these issues. You also would prefer to change "equal rights" to "parental rights" to cover the issue of women being discriminated against.

The difficulty is that however right you are about what some/most people believe in the fathers' rights movement, that is not what scholars in the field have reported in their research. We cannot include your ideas and corrections to their views unless there are reliable sources that state them. And undue weight actually says we should include the current points since "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each." These are the scholarly opinions of academics in the field and are clearly notable, prominent and eminently encyclopedic. Note that we also cannot change 'equal' to 'parental' because the academics sourced do not say this or make the point you would like to make. Finally, specific attribution in the text is not required for all statements in the article, as you know, and indeed the citations supplied are attribution in themselves. See WP:ATT for a useful essay on these topics.--Slp1 (talk) 22:58, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of the author and the source, opinion is not necessarily scholarly or appropriate for the article. In particular, the use of the word wing is without basis. It implies through innuendo that there are about an equal number of so-called "liberal" and "conservative" members with these particular views. It is not encyclopedic.

The liberal and conservative terms and the viewpoints associated with them are clearly constructs of the authors. The authors state that these descriptions were for "analysis purposes." What exists in the article currently is taken out of context.

Opinions need attribution.

I suggest that the section be reworked or deleted. Michael H 34 (talk) 14:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Thank you for helpful edits. I have reworked some of them, since I think important points from the sources were deleted in some edits, and also for improved flow. I think including "in constrast" makes clear the link to the previous section, for example. The section added sourced from Baskerville was not really about the subject at hand (which is the divergent nature of the FRM,) and seemed to be more about presumption of joint custody and criticizing feminists. I was going to move it lower to that section before I noticed that there was pretty much an identical sentence already there.

I agree that opinions need attribution: the question is does the mainstream academic research to be attributed when there are apparently no reliable sources or other academic sources contradicting it? For example, take a look at the AIDS article: there is no attribution of the opinion that HIV causes AIDS, even though there are those who dispute it. But it is an interesting question, and I will be asking for some opinions elsewhere to help clarify the matter. Depending on the outcome, in the interests of NPOV, we may need to consider attributing way more opinions/arguments than already are: it is not clear, for Shadfly, for example, is adequate as the sole citation for a sentence that says "Supporters of the fathers' rights movement", and of course there are others, on the "critics" side.

On a lighter note, can you begin to think of more neutral words than just "state" that are acceptable to you? "State" is used way too much in this article. Personally I think "argue" is neutral when used in the context of what beliefs/positions are, along with "say, maintain, write". Can you make a list of words that work for you?--Slp1 (talk) 21:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I've posted my questions here.--Slp1 (talk) 23:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Why? [92] For a bit of variety and so it reads better. It is a dreadfully monotonous read at present. If you don't like "argue", then please think of some other words that please you better, as I asked above. --Slp1 (talk) 01:20, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Maintain and assert are more neutral than argue. Michael H 34 (talk) 20:49, 13 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Thank you. I will attempt to add some variety at some point soon. In the meantime, once again please stop deleting well-sourced content from the article. [93][94]. The content you have deleted is sourced to multiple highly reliable academic sources. If it is "confusing" (as your edit summary suggests), then by all means clarify the sentences without deleting the concepts/information contained in them. I am not sure exactly what you mean by "constructs for analysis purposes" (from the edit summary once again) but helping readers explore the central constructs of the FRM seems to me precisely what an encyclopedia should be attempting to do. And if the text "creates innuendo about the "traditional family" through contrast with "gender equality"" as you allege, then you need to take that up with the scholars whose views these are: it is not the place of this encyclopedia to do anything more than faithfully summarize the opinions of experts in the field. --Slp1 (talk) 21:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Please stop adding wordy, confusing and biased innuendo just because you can label it the opinion of "experts." Furthermore, the article is about the fathers' rights movement and this section is about the background and history of the fathers' rights movement. The article is not about "constructs for analysis purposes" of members of the fathers' rights movement made by some scholars and the article is not about opinions about feminism. Michael H 34 (talk) 00:23, 17 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Notes: Even what remains after my edit is the result of synthesis. Slp1 has connected constructs for analysis purposes to actual members of the fathers' rights movement.

Some scholars state that some fathers’ rights advocates maintain that joint physical custody is in the best interest of children based on the idea that both men and women can be breadwinners and caregivers, while others support joint physical custody based on the idea that men and women parent differently, that they are not interchangeable, and they assert that for this reason children need access to both parents. Michael H 34 (talk) 00:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

No, Michael. WP:SYNT is when people combine two or more ideas from separate sources to make a new point. The references given make exactly the points the article did by comparing the two strands of the fathers' rights movement and their attitudes to feminism and gender roles etc. Yes, the article is about the fathers' rights movement and yes, the analysis of multiple scholars about its composition and attitudes published in highly reliable sources can and should be included. It appears that you disagree with the views of the academics, calling them "innuendo". WP:IDON'TLIKEIT is not a reason for removing sourced material, no matter how strong your opinion.

But perhaps you are right and the sections should be organized differently, with the information included elsewhere. I will take a look at this in a day or two and will be editing accordingly. Note, however, that I am still very concerned that your goals continue to be "to make the issues of the FRM as clear and well-written as possible" as you stated last year [95] rather than "to include all significant views that have been published by reliable sources" as required by NPOV. Note that the same policy states that this NPOV editing is "non-negotiable and expected of all articles, and of all article editors". --Slp1 (talk) 01:07, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

No, Slp1. Synthesis also occurs when a source discusses one thing and then an editor uses the material to connect the dots to something else. You have connected the dots from artificial constructs used "for analysis purposes" of actual people to the actual people themselves.

I believe that these scholarly sources do not seriously consider that a group of real people fit neatly into two categories. Not only is it simplistic, but this is about an irrelevant viewpoint. This article is not about feminism or gender roles.

The sentences you added create a great deal of confusion for the reader, not just about members of the fathers' rights movement, but also about feminism and about the traditional family.

Feminism is irrelevant to the fathers' rights movement except to the extent that feminist organizations advocate for increased government power over individuals and families and oppose a rebuttable presumption for shared parenting. Clearly, these feminists are the opponents of all members of the fathers' rights movement. It is confusing to the reader to state that only a subset of the members of the fathers' rights movement view feminism as an enemy. To which feminism does the statement refer?

The use of the word "contrast", one subset with the other that supports the "original goals of feminism", creates innuendo about both members of the fathers' rights movement and feminism.

Members of the fathers' rights movement support gender equality (a rebuttable presumption of shared parenting) while feminist organizations oppose it. The sentences you added use innuendo to imply that a subset of the fathers' rights movement do not support gender equality (in contrast to others who support gender equality and the original goals of feminism) and that feminists do still support gender equality (since they are the enemy of the subset who are "contrasted" with the subset who support gender equality). The innuendo is not perfect because the words "original goals of feminism" show that feminism has changed, and so a careful reader becomes confused.

I recall that at one time this article included words to the effect that "members of the fathers' rights movement state that their policies benefit excluded mothers" (source: Families Need Fathers) and "no significant percentage of the movement supports a return to patriarchy" (source: Teri Stoddard). I'm not sure but I believe that it was you who deleted these "well-sourced" statements. Michael H 34 (talk) 18:54, 17 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

The following edit appears to have included unsourced commentary contrasting sourced statements.

[96]

The phrase "several interrelated trends" adds very little detail to the article, and may have been included only to add the unsourced commentary: "a more sophisticated analysis" in comparison to "gender war."

Please note that the title of the book used as a source for viewpoints of members of the fathers' rights movement is a book written by Stephen Baskerville titled "Taken Into Custody: The War on Fathers, Marriage and the Family."

The original edit can mislead the reader because the war to which Stephen Baskerville refers is not a gender war, but one between individual rights and the power of government.

Taken alone, the edit above is only one edit. Yet, there is something similar with regard to the current edit about scholars analysis of (- the part that is left out) viewpoints of members of the fathers' rights movement with respect to gender equality, gender roles, gender specialization, the original goals of feminism, and feminism as an enemy. Why are these sentences included? Doesn't the article already state that members of the fathers' rights movment have diverse viewpoints?

This (scholars analysis of) edit is also comprised of "well-sourced" sentences added sequentially to create or synthesize something extra using "contrast." In this case, that something extra is innuendo about support for gender equality among some members of the fathers' rights movement and among feminists. As noted above, confusion is also created for the careful reader. Just like the "more sophisticated analysis" edit, the "innuendo (and confusion) about gender equality" edit adds little detail and is not relevant to the article.

Michael H 34 (talk) 15:21, 20 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Michael, please understand that you need to be on very sure ground before making accusations of this sort. You have now accused me of synthesis and adding unsourced material and commentary, neither of which is accurate. I have already pointed out above that the Williams and Williams chapter [97] makes exactly the point included in the text (ie that there are pro-feminist and anti-feminist groupings within the FRM). You have now produced an edit of mine [98] and are claiming that this is unsourced commentary. In order to make this claim, you would need to check the sources I gave, including the Collier and Sheldon book. Have you done this? I am guessing not, because if you had you would see that I faithfully summarized their views on this matter. And here's the proof.

• Here's what I wrote "Some commentators see the rise of the movement as a 'backlash' to increasing female power in the family and in society, and the consequent challenge to men's traditional roles and authority. In this view, the movement is seen as part of a 'gender war' between the sexes. Other commentators propose a more complex analysis that several interrelated trends have led to the growing prominence of the movement."
• Here's what Collier and wrote in the book: "We hope that, from what has necessarily been a brief sketch, that describing the rise of the FRM in terms of a 'backlash' to increased female power is, at best, a caricature of which fails to capture the multifaceted, fast changing, complex realities of men's and women's experiences of family background and shifting gender roles." (p.14); and "While there are limits to the ideas of backlash and 'gender wars' in seeking to understand the rise of the FRM, we would suggest that it is possible to point to three interrelated trends that underpin the new prominence of the FRM internationally...." (p. 10);
• Here's what they wrote in their Guardian article: "Why has the fathers' rights movement gained such momentum now? One explanation that has proved attractive to some parts of the media is the idea of "backlash", most famously discussed by the US author Susan Faludi, who describes a powerful counter-assault against the achievements of feminism. As women gain more influence outside the household, she suggests, men lose their traditional role and authority both at home and in the workplace. Inevitably, men fight back and "gender wars" result. This is one of the claims examined in a new collection of essays by leading commentators on family law and policy in five countries. It argues that the image of backlash fails to capture the complex realities of contemporary family life, which cannot be reduced to a balance sheet in which men proportionately lose what women gain in power and rights. A more accurate explanation of the current high profile of fathers' rights might rather be found in a more complex mixture of factors."[99]

Your opinion about what should and should not be included in the article is noted. However, we are not here to write a summary of Baskerville's view of the FRM. We are here to summarize the highest quality information about the movement that exists. This includes academic texts and articles by experts of the subject, which includes, but is not restricted to, Baskerville. This includes highly reliable sources that may not reflect Baskerville's (or your) views. But it also includes any other sources that you can find that might contradict the one's that I found. Can you find any reliable sources that contradict the notions/ideas you have been arguing against? (e.g. pro and anti feminist sections of the FRM) If you can find some they can be included too as a counterbalance to the opinions of the academics. --Slp1 (talk) 22:02, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Your proof is accepted and I will continue to assume good faith in your edits. I continue to strongly object to your most recent edit to this article. I offer my apologies for connecting the prior edit to the most recent edit.

"It argues that the image of backlash fails to capture the complex realities of contemporary family life, which cannot be reduced to a balance sheet in which men proportionately lose what women gain in power and rights."

No one is arguing against this. The enemies of members of the fathers' rights movement are the government its policies, and those who support these policies. John Waters wrote something to the effect that "they'll go after the women next." I suggest that any references to "gender war" be clearly connected to Susan Faludi's idea of a backlash.

"Can you find any reliable sources that contradict the notions/ideas you have been arguing against? (e.g. pro and anti-feminist sections of the FRM)?"

(1) Which feminism do you mean? Your most recent edit to this article placed the traditional family and the idea of differing abilities among men and women as something contrary to gender equality!!! Opposition to a rebuttable presumption for shared parenting is the "enemy" of something that is contrasted with gender equality!!! Do current feminists or members of the fathers' rights movement, who support a rebuttable presumption for shared parenting, support gender equality?

(2) Artificial constructs used "for analysis purposes" of actual people have been connected to the actual people themselves, and this is the result of synthesis.

(3) "No significant percentage of the movement supports a return to patriarchy" (source: Teri Stoddard) was once included in the article.

Michael H 34 (talk) 15:14, 22 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Michael, your posting here, in my view, takes us once again to the crux of the problem. Your opinion and my opinion of these matters are not the point. You seem to assume that I agree with the content of my edits, but that's not the case at all. I add whatever interesting, well-sourced material I can find to help this article be the best possible summary of the FRM. It doesn't matter whether I personally agree with the content or not. And so it really doesn't matter who you believe are the "enemies of the fathers' rights movement". It doesn't matter whether you or I agree with what Collier, Sheldon, Baskerville et al say. It doesn't matter if we think their arguments are foolish or brilliant. It doesn't matter if their work is "Artificial constructs used "for analysis purposes" of actual people have been connected to the actual people themselves" (though I still haven't figured out quite what this means).

Our job here is to summarize the views of experts in the field, not to judge the validity of their arguments. You can't delete the views of notable scholars just because they don't seem logical or reasonable to you. What does matter is what other notable experts say. I suggested that you find some reliable sources that contradict Collier and Sheldon's notions and support your views. If you can find the Teri Stoddard quote and if it is determined that she constitutes a reliable source for this article, then that will do fine. Or find somebody else. But you need to produce some reliable sources instead of modifying/deleting the sourced information we do have, just because you don't like the information it contains. --Slp1 (talk) 03:16, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Notes

http://www.acfc.org/site/DocServer/SPBrochureImage4.pdf?docID=1401 Michael H 34 (talk) 02:58, 8 September 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Gender war/backlash vs. increase in separation and fragility of fathers' bonds

The suggested edit below did not change the meaning at all, but only improved the flow and the attribution.

[[100]]

Some commentators, such as law professors Richard Collier and Sally Sheldon, see the rise of the movement not as a result of a gender war associated with a 'backlash' to increasing female power in the family and in society, and the consequent challenge to men's traditional roles and authority, but rather they see the increase in the prominence of the movement as a result of the greater fragmentation of families through the decline in marriage and the rise in divorce/separation rates, which they assert have increased the fragility of fathers' bonds with their children.

Michael H 34 (talk) 16:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Actually your edit [101] does change the meaning considerably.

• Can you explain why you have entirely deleted the view that some hold that the movement's rise is the result of the "gender wars"? per "One explanation that has proved attractive to some parts of the media is the idea of "backlash". (from [102], and of course the book). Deletions and changes of this sort to remove/devalue one sourced view entirely is a breach of WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE.
• Can you please give me the specific page number of the Collier and Sheldon book where they say the rise of the movement not the result of a gender war? My reading pf their work is that they say that there "are limits to the ideas of backlash and 'gender wars'", and that "the image of backlash fails to capture the complex realities of contemporary family life", which is not the same at all as rejecting entirely. So please produce the citation to justify your edit. And note that the bolding of the text not to emphasize your point is contrary to the WP:BOLD and I would argue WP:NPOV too.
• Can you justify, using WP policy based reasoning, why you have deleted Collier and Sheldon's view that "that shifting household demographics" are one of the causes of rise of the movement? Once again, deletions of sourced material of this sort is contrary to WP policy, and gives WP:UNDUE weight to the other reasons that you have left intact.

I am going to restore the sourced material, per WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:UNDUE. I will leave some of your other, more stylistic edits untouched. Please do not delete it without clear justifications based on WP policies.--Slp1 (talk) 21:24, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I have also reverted this edit.[103] Introducing a scholarly opinion with the phrase: "Analysis of members of the fathers' rights movement by scholars assume that members of the fathers’ rights movement rationalize their support for joint physical custody for different reasons...." is not of neutral point of view. Your view that the scholars are wrong is very clear in this edit. Michael H, these POV edits cannot continue. Please stop and consider what you are doing. --Slp1 (talk) 21:42, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I am disappointed that a Wikipedia administrator would accuse someone of POV editing when the edits really speak for themselves.

I have added quite a bit of the criticism of the FRM to this article.

(1) An assumption must be labeled an assumption or you are being dishonest to the reader. Your edit is the clear result of synthesis. You connected assumptions about people to real people without disclosing this to the reader.

(2) My edit to the gender war / backlash sentences did not change any of the meaning, and only improved the flow and the attribution.

(3) You are making an incorrect assumption about my views with regards to the scholars' assumptions. I agree with the assumptions of the scholars as described in the current version of the article. What is disappointing to me is that the synthesis of your edit was pointed out to you in advance on this page, but you undid my edit anyway.

(4) "Analysis of members of the fathers' rights movement by scholars assume that members of the fathers’ rights movement rationalize their support for joint physical custody for different reasons...." is clearly NPOV. Without doubt this is NPOV.

Michael H 34 (talk) 22:17, 24 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Synthesis is not "You connected assumptions about people to real people without disclosing this" (whatever that means). Synthesis is when you connect two separate texts to prove a point. The text (and the one you deleted above) all come from the SAME source. If you believe I am wrong about what synthesis is and isn't on Wikipedia, then go to the WP:NORN see if you can get anybody to agree with you there. While you are there you might notice that to date there is no support for your claim that this edit[104] is synthesis.[105]

I'll bet you agree with the current version of this [106] since you had already deleted the multiply sourced parts you call "innuendo" here.[107].

Your edit to the gender war/backlash sentences has demoted one view (that the rise of the FRM is the result of the anti-feminist backlash) into something that is is only contradicted and not given equal standing as a view. I repeat that this is contrary to WP:NPOV. --Slp1 (talk) 22:49, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

"Your edit to the gender war/backlash sentences has demoted one view (that the rise of the FRM is the result of the anti-feminist backlash) into something that is is only contradicted and not given equal standing as a view."

Based on which reliable source do you justify equal standing for the gender war / backlash view? Collier and Sheldon is the source for the sentence as it currently stands.

"This is one of the claims examined in a new collection of essays by leading commentators on family law and policy in five countries. It argues that the image of backlash fails to capture the complex realities of contemporary family life...."

"I'll bet you agree with the current version of this [108] since you had already deleted the multiply sourced parts you call "innuendo" here.[109]."

I deleted the objectionable parts for reasons described on this page. I called it innuendo for good reasons.

"Synthesis is not "You connected assumptions about people to real people without disclosing this" (whatever that means)."

I will assume good faith in your edit. (Perhaps you believe that disclosing that assumptions were made somehow devalues the scholars' opinion. I point out here that assumptions are not something that are necessarily bad.) I described a specific example of synthesis.

The scholars assumed that members of the fathers' rights movement fit into two categories "for analysis purposes." It is completely improper not to disclose that assumptions were made by the scholars. Real people do not fit neatly into two categories.

By not disclosing the assumptions made by the scholars you have "connected the dots" between the two-category assumption and real people. This is an example of synthesis.

Disclosing that the scholars made assumptions does not devalue their view in any way at all. Not in the least. In some professions, people must make assumptions, and it is required by their professional standards of practice to disclose the assumptions.

Michael H 34 (talk) 15:19, 25 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Michael,

• In this edit,[110] I have already showed you that Collier and Sheldon note that one prominent view about the rise of the movement is that it is the result of the "gender wars". Per NPOV this needs to be given a balanced treatment.

• In the same edit I also asked you for the specific citation and page number to justify your edit that C and S reject that hypothesis in its entirety, per your edit. You have not done so. The sentence as currently phrased is unverifiable.
• "I called it innuendo for good reasons". I'm sure you did. But since when does WP allow the deletion of the well-sourced (from multiple authors), neutrally phrased, attributed scholarly opinion based on one editor's view that it is "innuendo"? Answer: it doesn't [111], and "the elimination of article content cannot be justified under this policy by simply labeling it "POV". Find some reliable sources that contrast with the ones you disagree, and they can certainly be included. At the moment, I can't one, but you may be more successful.

• Thank you for explaining what you mean by "synthesis". You are using the term differently from the usual meaning here [[WP:SYNT] which explains my confusion. The actual citation from the Williams chapter is "As a matter of analytic convenience, the movement can be viewed as having both "liberal" and "conservative" wings.(p 94). Gavanas does not include this caveat [112], nor does this [113], nor does this source [114] (p. 72) which also talks about two wings, principally (but not exclusively) in the context of the men's rights movement. But despite this, I am happy that we include something to make this 'analytic convenience clear'. However to me the current version is not very clear, so I will make some edits to clarify, as well as restoring well-sourced information about the two wings of the movement.--Slp1 (talk) 16:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Your POV is clear from your edits and from the soources that you have selected. Michael H 34 (talk) 17:46, 25 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

But since when does WP allow the deletion of the well-sourced (from multiple authors), neutrally phrased, attributed scholarly opinion based on one editor's view that it is "innuendo"? Answer: it doesn't

I'm encouraged to improve the article. In my view, something that is "well-sourced (from multiple authors), neutrally phrased, attributed scholarly opinion" is not necessarily an improvement or even appropriate for the article. Michael H 34 (talk) 18:18, 25 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Sheldon and Collier are the source for these views and they state that this view is incorrect. I changed the article to reflect this. Michael H 34 (talk) 18:24, 25 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

"This is one of the claims examined in a new collection of essays by leading commentators on family law and policy in five countries. It argues that the image of backlash fails to capture the complex realities of contemporary family life...."

...and this is the only source for this view. Michael H 34 (talk) 18:26, 25 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

I hope you will excuse me that have moved your comments here. Threading the conversation is not a good idea as it makes in difficult to follow. Where do C and S say that "this view is incorrect"? Saying that something "fails to capture the complex realities" is not the same thing at all. Please provide with the specific citation and page number for this, please. C and S also say that the backlash motif is a common reason given for the rise of the movement, and so this view needs to be given equal airplay with their view. And if it helps to clarify the backlash/gender war information is a widely held notable view, then how about these [115][116][117][118]link title --Slp1 (talk) 19:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion. I'll make an edit to address your concern.

Here's the source I was looking for: [119]

"can be viewed" as having two wings are the words from this honest source. Michael H 34 (talk) 19:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

The controversy sentence

Re this edit.[120] Can you please tell me the page numbers used to cite this sentence? Thank you.--Slp1 (talk) 19:48, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Pages 46 - 48. Your welcome. Fathers' rights organizations were discussed on pages 46 and 47, and a statement about fathers' rights (attributed to R. Collier) was included in the same paragraph as the paraphrased sentence. Michael H 34 20:03, 25 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Okay, I remember the problem with this edit.[120] First, it is not about the rise of the FRM but about increased interest in custody in men (Collier is actually quoted as saying that this is not about fathers' rights, but about issues of father absence); both are no doubt related to the increased prominence of FRM, but not specifically stated as such. And since the author did not make the connection, neither can we. Second, it is taken out of context: the actual passage reads: " There is research to support the notion that fathers are more involved with their children than in times past, but the shift in image may be greater than the actual changes in fathers' involvement in parenting. Nonetheless, widespread expectations that fathers want to be more actively involved in childrearing and that children need fathers may be increasing the controversy and interest in the custody of children." Third, it is not some commentators, but one. Fourth, it is a word for word copy of the original text, which is a copyright violation Fifth, it is really just making the same point as Collier and Sheldon that men are expected to be more involved by society and this has caused tension. --Slp1 (talk) 20:46, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with you.

(1) This section of the article is about the background and history of the fathers' rights movement. It is not necessarily restricted to the rise of the movement

(2) Collier is discussing fathers' rights and the authors were discussing fathers' rights organizations.

(3) Again, this section of the article is not restricted to the rise of the movement.

(4) My edit is not a word for word copy of the source.

(5) The authors (plural) wrote what they wrote.

I am restoring my edit. Michael H 34 (talk) 04:08, 27 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Hi Michael, another time you create a new section, it is better to copy such add new section header or to copy the source text, in the edit window, as otherwise all the links in the text go dead.

I don't have time to fully answer at the moment, but as a start can you please justify your claims in 1 and 2 above with reference to the original text? Where is there a mention of the FRM? As far as I can see the FRM isn't talked about once in the whole book. The paragraph (and the chapter) is about custody determination, and the only mention about fathers' rights is to say "As custody determination moved into the era of the best interests of the child, Collier (1995) suggested we moved [my emphasis] from a concern with fathers' rights to a focus on the problems created by father absence" with the sentence you used coming several sentences later as part of the description of the 'father absence' focus of custody determination.[121] I look forward to your response.--Slp1 (talk) 11:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Slp1, I provided you page numbers in which "fathers' rights organizations" are discussed.

Please note that the paragraph that begins with "scholars assert" has nothing to do with the rise of the fathers' rights movement. Although you are the editor who is adding this paragraph, you are also the editor who is deleting the "controversy" sentence because you claim that it is synthesis to connect this sentence to the rise of the fathers' rights movement (an artificial restriction in the background and history section) and despite the fact that fathers' rights organizations are discussed more than once by the source cited. Michael H 34 (talk) 14:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

You are indeed correct that FR organizations and groups are mentioned on p. 46 and 47 of the Ganong book.[122] I should have searched other formulations rather than just FRM. However, you have used something from p. 48 where the topic being discussed is custody determination and the arguments being used about it. In contrast, all the references I used for the "Some scholars assert..." section are specifically about and discussing the FRM. For example [123][124][125][126]. That's the difference. You are taking material on a related subject, and linked it to the FRM. It probably does link up to it, but since the author did not make the connection, neither can we. --Slp1 (talk) 16:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

In my view, you are incorrect. Even if fathers' rights was not mentioned in the very same paragraph as the paraphrased sentence, the authors WERE discussing fathers' rights organizations in the preceding paragraphs. Your claim: "You are taking material on a related subject, and linked it to the FRM." ignores this. The extra reference to fathers' rights in the same paragraph as the paraphrased sentence only strengthens the fact that the authors were discussing fathers' rights and fathers' rights organizations. The fact that fathers' rights in relation to child custody was included does NOT negate the fact that the authors were discussing fathers' rights organizations AND fathers' rights in relation to child custody.

You previously stated that you had "no doubt" that the reference to fathers' rights in relation to child custody was linked to the fathers' rights movement. You added that as editors we could not synthesize a link to the fathers' rights movement.

However, upon more careful checking we have found that the authors DID discuss fathers' rights organizations. I do not understand how you can possibly object to this edit. Michael H 34 (talk) 18:50, 27 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Let's take a careful look this chapter.[127] Its subtitle is "Parents' responsibility to assume physical custody of children.

• p. 45-46 Begins a discussion legal changes in child custody laws and the motivations behind this. One of the factors discussed is external pressure from the FRM and mothers' groups.
• p. 46-47 Discusses the history of societal attitudes towards child custody, including the 18th-19th Century view of "natural right" of fathers to the custody of their children", and the FRM is mentioned briefly because they sometimes still use this "natural right" argument. This section goes on to talk about the natural right view how fell out of favour in the 19th Century and moved into the "tender years" doctrine which tended to favour mothers' custody. This continued to be the dominant societal view until the 1960s when the "best interests of the child" child custody determination came into fashion.
• p. 47-8 goes on to talk about how legal changes such as the no-fault divorce affected child custody determinations.
• On p.48, Collier is paraphrased, introducing a section about "father absence". "Collier (1995) suggested that we moved from a concern with father's rights to a focus on the problems created by father absence." The section goes onto describe the father absence argument, as well as the changes in attitudes towards fatherhood, which in which fathers are seen as nurturing and wanting to be involved in parenting, though it is not clear that fathers are actually as involved as society views them. The paragraph finishes with the sentence that you have copied verbatim. "Nonetheless, widespread expectations that fathers want to be more actively involved in childrearing and that children need fathers may be increasing the controversy and interest in the custody of children."

This chapter is not about the FRM. It is about child custody and what factors have influenced societal attitudes over the last 200 years. In addition, though the paragraph in question does use the words "fathers' rights" it is in fact to say that "we [have] moved" away from a fathers' rights concern to the father absence one.

From WP:NOR "If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion, or if the sources cited are not directly related to the article subject, then the editor is engaged in original research." The source cited is not directly related to the subject of the article, and thus cannot be used. This whole chapter would likely be a very useful source for the history of child custody article, however.--Slp1 (talk) 22:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The view feminism as an enemy phrase

"Can you find any reliable sources that contradict the notions/ideas you have been arguing against? (e.g. pro and anti-feminist sections of the FRM)?"

(1) Which feminism do you mean? Your most recent edit to this article placed the traditional family and the idea of differing abilities among men and women as something contrary to gender equality!!! Opposition to a rebuttable presumption for shared parenting is the "enemy" of something that is contrasted with gender equality!!! Do current feminists or members of the fathers' rights movement, who support a rebuttable presumption for shared parenting, support gender equality?

(2) "No significant percentage of the movement supports a return to patriarchy" (source: Teri Stoddard) was once included in the article.

Michael H 34 (talk) 04:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34

Notes: Members of the fathers' rights movement distinguish between different forms of feminism: [128]

"Please, remember that there are corrupt judges out there, and that gender feminists are scary…also remember that there are good and fair judges out there, and that equity feminists generally work for, ya know, equality."

Michael H 34 (talk) 13:55, 27 October 2008 (UTC) Michael H 34