Talk:French Riviera

I've had to change the caption of the photo to "Quai des États-Unis" since "Promenade des Anglais" was incorrect. The "Promenade des Anglais" is however a continuation which is seen in the distance.Apgeraint 19:16, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

why is it called Cote D'Azur

Can someone include information in why the French Riviera is called Cote D'Azur?

"Cote d'Azur" is just the french name of what is called in Anglophone countries "French Riviera". It means "coast of blue", referring to the color of the sea and sky.

On another subject I think that this article is too much centred about the vision of the region from a turistic point of view only. This is not only a region of "resorts", and is also the home of one to two million people, and hosts the 5th french biggest city, Nice. It is far to be a region of stars and rich people only. The average level of life is not really higher than in most regions of France, and is much less high than Paris, Lyon's regions for exemple. the permanant population is far to be living just for turisme, but the region is also home of flower production, universities, High-tech activities. Some districts of Nice or Cannes such as Ariane or la Bocca are low-income places with high levels of poverty, violence and immigration problems.

Maybe it would be better to have an article that not just spread the cliché of "millionaires's region", which is really untrue, despite the fact that a lot of millionaires live in.

Railroads, Gambling, and Royalty

I dispute that the name Monte Carlo was coined by Francois Blanc. I have read in several books on Monaco and the French Riviera that the former Speluges was renamed by Prince Charles III's mother, Princess Caroline, who wanted a name that was somewhat exotic-sounding. The princess also named the Société des Bains de Mer et Cercle des Étrangers, which still operates the casino and several luxury hotels in Monaco. Dick Kimball (talk) 15:17, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and Monte Carlo wasn't a "brand-new city," it was merely renamed from the admittedly unglamorous Speluges. Dick Kimball (talk) 15:17, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

References in Popular Culture

I think this sub- category/title/topic should be added. I have one entry in mind - the Cote d'Azur is mentioned in a song by The Divine Comedy, called A Lady of a Certain Age. Dorfl 00:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Politics

Shouldn't it be mentioned somewhere that Jean-Marie Le Pen always polls very well here? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 147.143.241.138 (talk) 18:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

Panorama Photograph Removal Suggestion

The panorama at the beginning of this page is not only poorly placed, but I feel as if it offers little to the meat of the topic. It is a small marina with many boats surrounded by only a few buildings. It does not show anything very vast nor does it really expose what the French Riviera is like. This could easily be found in an article for a Caribbean Island and only a few would know the difference.

I suggest its removal from the article on basis that it does not add anything significant to the article. If nothing else it should be placed somewhere that it doesn't get in the way; it is certainly in the way now.

Wadester16 (talk) 05:47, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Good suggestion - I've replaced it with a picture of Cannes, which is more typical, and I'm trying to find some other pictures that capture the essence of the Riviera. SiefkinDR (talk) 19:41, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Famous residents section

Since none of this is referenced, and a long list like this is hardly very encyclopedic, I'm removing from the page and leaving it here for reference, so that perhaps a few paragraphs could be made out of it and re-added. --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 13:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• Roman Abramovich
• Paul Allen
• Brigitte Bardot
• Rubens Barrichello
• Dame Shirley Bassey
• Troy Bayliss
• Richie Benaud
• Bono
• Tom Boonen
• Shahnawaz Bhutto
• Carla Bruni
• Jenson Button
• Loris Capirossi
• Belinda Carlisle
• Jean Cocteau
• Joan Collins
• David Coulthard
• Johnny Depp
• The Edge
• Michele Ferrero
• F. Scott Fitzgerald
• James Gandolfini
• Stelios Haji-Ioannou
• Mika Häkkinen
• Michael Jackson
• Sir Elton John
• Lucas Luhr
• Loretta Lux
• Tommi Mäkinen
• Keke Rosberg
• Juan Pablo Montoya
• Jason Plato
• Roman Polanski
• Nico Rosberg
• Sophie Sandolo
• Eugene Shvidler
• Sinbad
• Ivana Trump
• Tina Turner
• Andrew Vicari
• Jacques Villeneuve
• Emma Watson
• Andrew Lloyd Webber
• Alex Zanardi
• Angelina Jolie
• Brad Pitt

Good idea. I think this list is pretty useless. SiefkinDR (talk) 19:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Is the current titile really prevailing over Côte d'Azur?

Really? Then why do Travel TV hosts exaggeratedly pronounce the place in French? We do not resort to Google result as references, but it could show the real world usage,

• 6,430,000 English pages for "Cote d Azur"
• 3,980,000 English pages for "Côte d Azur"
• 1,810,000 English pages for "French Riviera"

I also found the geographical name cote d'azur at Merriam-Webster. I think French Riviera is one of attempts to unify unfamiliar foreign names to less unfamiliar loan words. This page of course belongs to English encyclopedia, but outside English-speaking world, it is called Côte d'Azur. Miami Beach is not titled American Riviera, so I think the title should reflect real world usage.--Caspian blue (talk) 13:41, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The name French Riviera is misledaing because Monaco is an independent state, not a part of France. Cote d'Azur is the only known name in the native use. Moreover, Cote d'Azur is fully admitted in the Webster English dictionary.--Nil Blau (talk) 22:01, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Cote d'Azur

Nil Blau,

Your recent redefinition of the limits of the Cote d'Azur is at odds with the definition shown in Wikipedia (French). Can you tell us how you reconcile that, please?

Your claim that "French Riviera" is 'quite unknown locally' is a statement of the obvious, because the local language is not English, whereas this Wikipedia article is an English article. If you meant that the juxtaposition of the words Riviera and Française are unknown locally, then this is at odds with the content of the official website http://www.riviera-francaise.fr. So, either way, your comment does not appear to stack up. Can you tell us how you reconcile this, please? --JHB (talk) 00:13, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Good evening. 1 The definition extracted from the famous Robert dictionary reflects a more genuine language use in French (thanks to the method of lexicography, i.e. the language use recording in dictionaries) than the French Wikipedia version. 2 We could say that French Riviera is common in the local use of English (on the Cote d'Azur/French Riviera) but uncommon in the local use of French (please note that "Riviera Française" is unknown in the Robert dictionary). 3 I agree with you about the reality of the French name "Communauté de la Riviera Française" [1], and we should mentioned it, but this is the name of a "intercommunalité": this type of commune co-operation community is quite recent in France and has little impact on everyday's language use. There are a lot of "intercommunalités" of this kind all over the French territory, but they don't create any regional identification among the population.--Nil Blau (talk) 19:54, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Dear Nil Blau

It's a bit like playing poker. Here is an extract straight from Wiktionnaire - 'le dictionnaire libre':

"Nom propre

Côte d’Azur féminin /kɔt.dazyʁ/

Partie du littoral français comprise entre Hyères et la frontière italienne."

Whatever 'Robert' may define, Wiki is consistent in its approach. So you have to climb that mountain first - or abandon your expedition at Hyères.

Also the Times Atlas of the World's Cote d'Azur notation goes nowhere near turning the corner towards Toulon.

Do you have a couple of aces up your sleeve?

--JHB (talk) 11:21, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

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I agree with you about this idea: we should replace the title "French Riviera" by "Cote d'Azur".--Nil Blau (talk) 08:25, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

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I think that this article should be renamed Cote d'Azur, with an explanation of the term 'French Riviera.' As others have pointed out, most of this article is about the wider area broadly defined, not the very narrow area of the French Riviera defined here. SiefkinDR (talk) 11:02, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Cote d'Azur and French Riviera 19 December 2008

As of this morning we have a small nucleus of contributors who believe, in effect, that this article carries the wrong title (SiefkinDR - Nil Blau - JHB). A subsidiary issue is whether the French Riviera article:

a) should be abandoned and the FR element of the content be absorbed within 'Cote d'Azur',

b) should simply be moved over to the existing Cote d'Azur article (with FR absorbed therein)and the redirection reversed,

c) should be retained separately but with the content cut down to the necessary geographical limits (then expanded in depth (particularly historically) and carry a hyperlink to the Cote d'Azur article (which would have only fleeting references to FR) at the most appropriate point. That point may not be in a common links section right at the end, which would not really be high-profile enough.

JHB preferences: c) first, b) second, a) last.

ARE THERE ANY OTHER CONTRIBUTORS / EDITORS WITH POSITIVE VIEWS ON THIS ISSUE?

IF SO, SPEAK NOW. --JHB (talk) 10:13, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

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I think c is probably the best option. The history of the French Riviera as a tourist destination should probably stay with the the FR article, while everything else (geography, early history, climate, artists, food, economy, etc.) should be in the Cote d'Azur article. SiefkinDR (talk) 12:45, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

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I agree with solution c). I also suggest that we create a desambiguation set:

• French Riviera (desambiguation), with two links: 1° French Riviera (commune group), 2° synonym of Cote d'Azur
• French Riviera --> French Riviera (desambiguation).--Nil Blau (talk) 14:34, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Cote d'Azur from Cassis to Menton

JHB wrote: "Do you have a couple of aces up your sleeve?"
Dear JHB, once again, let me underline that the technique of lexicography (the scientific recording of genuine language use), as it is implemented by the famous Robert dictionary ——which is a French, reputed equivalent of the English Oxford dictionaries—- is much more serious and safer than any Wikipedia o Wiktionary version. Now, here are a couple of other "aces".

• "«Porte de la Côte d'Azur», la région toulonnaise s'allonge sur cinquante kilomètres [...]" ("«Gate of the Cote d'Azur», the region of Toulon streches on aproximately 50 kilometers[...]") in Frédéric Zégierman (1999), Le guide des pays de France, Fayard, vol. "Sud", p. 474. The author is a professional geographer.
• "Côte d'Azur, Partie orientale du littoral français, sur la Méditerranée, de Cassis à Menton" ("Cote d'Azur, Eastern part of the French coast, on the Mediterranean, from Cassis to Menton"), in Le Petit Larousse illustré (2005), p. 1297, another reputed French dictionary.
• "Côte d'Azur, côte méditerranéenne française entre Cassis et Menton" ("Cote d'Azur, French Mediterranean coast between Cassis ans Toulon") in Dictionnaire Hachette encyclopédique (2000), p. 448
• "Costa Blava - Nom que rep la costa meridional de la Provença, Occitània, que s'estén [...] entre Cassis i la frontera italiana" ("Cote d'Azur - Name received by the southern coast of Provence, Occitania, which stretches [...] between Cassis and the Italian border") in Enciclopèdia Catalana here.
• I live in Toulon during a part of the year and my family is originary from that city. I can guarantee you that in Toulon, it is obvious for everyone that we dwell on the Cote d'Azur.--Nil Blau (talk) 14:06, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Dear Nil Bau,

It may surprise you to hear that in truth I am indifferent to the outcome. I stand by what I wrote previously, which is that Wikipedia must ensure it ends up with the right answer. As a comparatively detached onlooker I have been confused by the vague or conflicting definitions surrounding the western end of the C d'A, emanating even from among the natives.

In my sporadic researches during today it seems you are steadily gaining ground, now with LAROUSSE concurring with ROBERT, and Robert being found on line, etc.

But there is still, of course, the issue of Wiki consistency - and it looks to me as though you have just registered on Wikipedia Français as 'Senior' and changed the western demarcation to Cassis within their definition. Discovering a new editor's first and only contribution being to replace Hyères with Cassis the day after I pointed the entry out to you represents too great a coincidence to ignore. But its all fair play - if you are right.

Will you be changing the Wiktionnaire entry as well? If you do, then we may have achieved consistency - unless someone then disagrees with you on one or both of the French sites.

By the way, should we write further on any such subject as this you can dispense with giving me English translations. That will save you some time.

I noted on one of the encyclopedia entries that the term 'Cote d'Azur; was first used in an 1887 publication, and its extent was then intended as Menton to Cannes. Who is it, then, who gives credence to and sanctions for the presumably gradual spread from Cannes to Cassis?

That's a fair chunk to add on to a coastal range in only a century or so. There is a reason for that question.

If the real answer is that the spread came about by popular demand, and as a result is now in respected encyclopedia, then we are probably wasting our time attempting to confine the FR to its technical or historical base. If popular demand holds sway, and the tourist industry is its vehicle, then the French Riviera means the Cote d'Azur. Period. --JHB (talk) 17:50, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

The name appeared in 1887 in a book of poet Stephen Liégeard, La Côte d'Azur. Initially, the Cote d'Azur was probably conceived for a more restricted area than today. What I did, do or will do on the French Wikipedia has no importance, the English Wikipedia is much more interesting and open-minded.--Nil Blau (talk) 23:30, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Final Words on French Riviera

I have consulted and studied more evidence on both Côte d'Azur and French Riviera, and observed several instances of Wiki involvement in these entities. The French Riviera is vague to say the least. The Côte d'Azur, I feel, started off at Hyères but those people west of there were offended and were keen to get in on the act and not be left out. If they have convinced Robert and Larousse they have done well, but that doesn't alter the creator's conception of 1887.

However, all that is as nothing when it comes to what is commonly understood by the English term French Riviera. It means Côte d'Azur, whether you like it or not, and whether it's right or wrong. That's what it means, and that's what Wiki are endorsing in almost everything they are doing or planning.

That's it, folks. You've got to live with it. Don't waste your time with nitty gritty details, evidence or protests - you'll get nowhere. People don't want to know. And neither, I am sure, do they care.

For this reason the lead section of this article will not, in fact, do itself any service or favours by hammering on about technical and historical fine points. They are not of sufficient interest and they will be a put-off for most visitors. Similarly, there is no mileage in changing the title to Côte d'Azur, for the simple reasons that it is not English and it means the same thing anyway (they think). Waste of time.

Obviously this is as much a U-turn for me as it would be for anybody else, but you only have to look at how the deck of cards is stacked to realise you are going nowhere. It would be different if Wikipedia were seen only in the hallowed halls of a

Pleas, let's have a serious beginning of the article, comparable to that of other Wikipedia articles, with citations and links. And we need separate article about the Cote d'Azur. If you want to have a long discussion on the definition, let put it later in the article, not in the first paragraph. SiefkinDR (talk) 03:15, 24 December 2008 (UTC)