Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Webcomics/Notability and inclusion guidelines

Is this about a wikipage for a particular webcomic or also about listing in List of Webcomics ? --Dyss 11:46, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

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Are the comics on www.comics.com and www.ucomics.com nationally syndicated? Otherwise they'll have the same problems as KeenSpace comics. --zandperl 04:42, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm. I think most are, but I know ucomics.com has that Comics Sherpa site now, which is supposed to feature non-syndicated comics. Comics that are syndicated probably shouldn't be listed at all, but those non-syndicated ones...

Well, a bit more digging shows that you can sort the comics on comicssherpa by rating (popularity), so maybe we could say only top 20 there as well? RADICALBENDER★ 04:48, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No more thoughts on this? It'd be good to see some degree of finality, because there's a few I'd like to create.

How about extending the Top 20 from Keenspace to Top 40, too? It'd include another couple of comics that I think are worthy. Ambivalenthysteria 03:04, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Although I see a few comics that I read that would be included by such an extension, I don't think there's enough to justify it at this time. -- Cyrius|&#9998 03:23, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)

Is the "Where do people go on keenspace.com?" metric ANY good? It lists Sexy Losers as the #1 destination (12%), and SL left keenspace ages ago. Ralphmerridew 15:57, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ranking

What if a comic's Alexa rank drops below the threshold? Do we remove it? I see three possibilities: Remove it; Don't remove it; Remove it only if it doesn't have an article.

Secondly, what if a comic has no three-month traffic average? (not considering sites that have changed domains) Are they simply considered too new for listing? -- Cyrius|&#9998 03:21, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)

We don't remove articles on anything else once they slip from the headlines. Why would we do this for webcomics? If they were relevant once, they have an article. With sites that are new, I think we should stay away, unless they've become rather notable in that time. Ambivalenthysteria 03:40, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I didn't think we would remove them, but since the proposed policy doesn't say, I felt it was a possible interpretation. But what about the current comic list? There's a number of comics on there that aren't notable, were never notable, and should be removed.

As far as new comics, I fully agree. My comment was worded with the intention of getting responses, rather than presenting my views. -- Cyrius|&#9998 04:51, Apr 10, 2004 (UTC)

You're right, but that's a matter of VFD. Once we can get agreement on a policy of handling them, I guess then we can go clean up the list. Ambivalenthysteria 06:03, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

A problem with using Alexa is that it's often regarded as spyware, and is detected by spyware removal software such as Spybot and Adaware. Tim J Tylor 22:06, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Proposed non-notability template

I've created a {{minor webcomic}} template for articles about webcomics that do not qualify for inclusion by the current guidelines. It's intended to be used in the same way as {{notable}}, but explicitly mentions and links to the web comics policy. Does this seem useful? — Gwalla | Talk 20:35, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't these go on VFD if they don't qualify for inclusion? Ambi 21:46, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I suppose so. — Gwalla | Talk 00:10, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Wikiproject: Webcomics

According to Wikipedia: Wikiproject Webcomics, I wrote Planet Earth (and other tourist traps). Please let me know if this is unacceptable. -Branddobbe 05:07, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

Inclusion

Eric Burns, at www.websnark.com, has proposed a different baseline inclusion guideline for webcomics that I suspect is more fair and still is going to avoid vanity pages. His proposal is that every comic with an archive of 100 strips or more should be included.

Yes, this is going to lead to a lot more webcomics being included, but I'm unconvinced that's a bad thing. One of the things Wikipedia is good for is providing encyclopedic coverage of smaller scale events and things that wouldn't make it in a normal encyclopedia because of space concerns.

Or, to put it another way, nobody outside of Wikipedia is going to catalog these webcomics, and, unlike a lot of things, I think a strong accounting of webcomics is something that is very helpful (As I think Websnark puts persuasively at [1].

Even if something more restrictive than a 100 strip archive is requested, I think these guidelines are needlesly fierce. At most 20 Keenspace comics? A 200,000 minimum Alexis Rank? Eek. I know we have problems with the profligation of vanity webcomic pages, but this swings too far in the other direction. How about we just deal with webcomics on a case by case basis on VfD like we do high schools and other such things? Snowspinner 06:58, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

I strongly agree with Snowspinner. (As you could probably guess I might). The idea that notability in what is essentially an artistic medium is wholly dependent upon popularity is, quite honestly, flawed. It took many years -- long after her death -- for Elizabeth Bishop to become well known, popular and anthologized as a poet, but as she was very popular among other poets her significance was considerable, and the aesthetic and critical importance of her poetry was certain. I think any system that relies upon the tyranny of popularity for inclusion in encyclopedic works will, ultimately, produce only articles of limited need. It is, in fact, the webcomics that develop depth, backstory and staying power but which don't have overwhelming popularity that need a centralized resource for webcomics fans to go to and learn more about them. Wikipedia is uniquely capable of providing a tremendous benefit to the webcomics consumer, but only if the articles are there. Quite honestly, it's rare someone needs to read up on Penny Arcade. But American Elf -- a strip produced by alternative artist James Kolchalka, a centerpiece of Joey Manley's Modern Tales family of comic strips, one of the most significant journal strips, one of the most successful (monetarily) pay-for strips and one of the most significant strips artistically (according to critics and significant artists in the webcomics community) doesn't fit the above guidelines for inclusion. One can only conclude that the guidelines do not meet the real need for encyclopedic information on the subject.--Eric Burns 07:09, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I disagree with this. The current webcomics policy is already much more lax than the general Wikipedia policy regarding websites. Wikipedia is not a web guide. The policy already accounts for comics that are notable for reasons other than their popularity. — Gwalla | Talk 23:46, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Inclusion Guidelines Counterproposal

Given my opinion that the guidelines as listed do not meet the needs of separating out the significant from the insignificant, instead rewarding simple popularity and denying smaller but sometimes more experimental or critically acclaimed works, it behooves me to produce a counterproposal to hopefully stimulate discussion.

This counterproposal takes the assumption that Wikipedia's articles, at their core, are a resource for web consumers -- a ready and central location for information on a broad variety of subjects. It is also the assumption of this counterproposal that a broad depth of webcomics, be they noteworthy due to popularity or noteworthy due to critical acclaim and aesthetic consideration, being represented in Wikipedia is of value to both Wikipedia and the webcomics community.

The following counterproposal is designed to produce guidelines based upon three basic criteria: commitment to the artistic work in time, commitment to the artistic work in effort, and a demonstrated fanbase. These would be determined as follows:

1. A webcomic must be on the web and actively producing strips for a minimum of 33 weeks before being considered for Wikipedia. During this time, any hiatus periods lasting more than 1 week will not be considered "active" and will not count to this goal. "Guest Weeks," fan art and the like would be considered hiatus periods for these purposes.
   1. Thirty-three weeks is the better part of a year. Many if not most vanity webcomics are abandoned within 12-15 weeks. By demonstrating the ability to produce over this period of time, a webcartoonist shows commitment and almost certainly artistic and aesthetic growth.
   2. Thirty-three weeks is the approximate amount of time a typical Monday-Wednesday-Friday strip would need to reach 100 strips if the artist never missed an update.
   3. Guest Strips and Fan Art, while demonstrating fan support of the strip, do not show commitment on the part of the webcartoonist, and so must be considered "inactive time" if the webcartoonist him or herself does not produce and post a strip of their own during the one-week period.
2. A webcomic must have at least 100 strips in its archive before being considered for Wikipedia. These strips must all be produced by the webcartoonist or webcartoonist team (though strips where the primary creator is actually the writer, recruiting several artists to produce the strips they write, would be considered "produced by the webcartoonist for the purposes of inclusion. Guest strips and fan art -- produced wholly by others -- would not.)
   1. 100 strips represents a significant amount of effort on the part of the webcartoonist, showing commitment that most vanity strips simply do not have.
   2. 100 strips is considered a milestone by most webcomic creators, and has some significance in the webcomic community.
   3. Guest strips and fan art, while demonstrating fan support of the strip, do represent neither the artistic growth of nor a commitment by the webcartoonist, and therefore would not be considered as part of the 100 strips for purposes of inclusion.
3. Someone other than the webcartoonist would need to actually write and develop the article in question.
   1. It is difficult for a webcomic's primary creator to adopt the necessary distance from his or her own work to write an encyclopedic article.
   2. The voluntary development of the Wikipedia article by someone other than the webcartoonist demonstrates fan support of the strip, and represents notability among a discrete population.

The ultimate goal of Wikipedia's guidelines for inclusion are to separate out those strips without note, commitment or worth, while highlighting those strips that possess note, commitment and worth. With the many thousands of strips available on the web, it is a losing proposition for any project of any kind to try and include them all. However, as the medium of webcomics and online sequential art grows and flourishes, it becomes increasingly important that there be repositories of factual and critical information on them, not bound to popularity but instead to significance. - Eric Burns

I would chime in here that webcomics creators already ought not write their own articles, as per the vanity pages policy Wikipedia already has. Snowspinner 07:51, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)

That seems fair enough. On the other hand, maybe creators should not be disqualified from correcting factual errors in articles about their strips... Lee M 02:52, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Allow webcomic creators to respond to errors in the discussion pages; if somebody agrees, that person may make the correction. Ralphmerridew 15:57, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Since when are creators disallowed from correcting errors in articles on their products? I think somebody is misinterpreting the policy against vanity pages. — Gwalla | Talk 23:46, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A lot of webcomics are in large comic-book page format, one page probably taking the effort of three or more newspaper-format strips. Maybe you should have different archive-minimum numbers for different formats. Tim J Tylor 22:24, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think 33 weeks is a little weak. I'd like to see a minimum of a year's worth of consistent activity, just so we know that the creator is serious enough to stick it out through everything that goes on in a year, and isn't just whittling away a lazy semester and a boring summer. I just can't believe that, in general, a comic that can't even stick around for a year could possibly be that signifigant. If there are exceptions to this, then they should be handled as exceptions (meaning just create the article and see if it survives a VfD). - Lifefeed 20:06, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

I have to agree. 100 and 33 are, IMO, very small numbers to use. Moreover, even a comic that lasted several times as long wouldn't merit a Wikipedia article if nobody read it. The mere fact that somebody's done something for a long time doesn't make it significant, and that's really all these guidelines measure. Popularity and/or influence on other work are the important criteria, I think. The latter is unfortunately difficult to measure. (Note that I'm not saying that popularity makes a comic "good", whatever good is, but it does make it notable enough for an encyclopedia article.) —Triskaideka 15:55, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think a year of consistent activity would be acceptable. Practically every halfhearted hobbyist effort makes it to 33 weeks and 100 strips. Personally, I'd prefer two years as a baseline—if something is to be included based on longevity, it should demonstrate longevity that is out of the ordinary (the ordinary being pretty weak in this case).

And I agree with Triskaideka that the most important criterion in notability is whether people have taken note. In general I prefer the earlier ranking-based guidelines to Eric Burns' how-long-they've-been-plugging-away-based guidelines. We should also make it clear, however, that these guidelines are only a fallback in case the comic has no other legitimate claims to notability (being covered in national or international news, being particularly influential, etc.) Webcomics are not an exception to the general guidelines of Wikipedia.

We shouldn't be bending over backwards to let every webcomic have an article just because they exist and we like the medium. Besides, if these inclusion guidelines are too lax, nobody on VfD will take them seriously, which would defeat the whole point. — Gwalla | Talk 04:53, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree that, if longevity is to be sufficient for inclusion (that is, for a comic that is not sufficiently popular, particularly one that has ended, such as 1/0 or Unicorn Jelly), two years is a nice solid baseline to use. Nifboy 08:17, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

I suggest going even further. Wikipedia is not a web comics directory. Limiting the listing to 10-20 of the most popular web comics should be sufficient. DiceDiceBaby 30 June 2005 17:34 (UTC)

I disagree completely. This would lead to a mass deletion of useful content. Nowhere does it say that Wikipedia should not cover notable web sites. The web comic coverage would apper to be far from the definition of directory on What Wikipedia is not. Keenspot alone has significantly more than 20 comics, all of them popular, and I can name a dozen notable non-members off the top of my head. Coverage of subjects such as this is one of the advantages Wikipedia has over its fellow encyclopedias. Frankly, I'd appreciate a few more reasons supporting Dice's argument because this one sounds like "I say Wikipedia doesn't work like this, so let's nuke stuff". Sry if I came across as cross. #¤£& deletionists... --Kizor 08:25, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Disambiguation standards

I just wrote a little question over on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Webcomics, about the fact that I noticed that among disambiguation add-ons to the names of web comics with common names, like Avalon, or Copper, or Freefall, there was no kind of standard behavior: It's Avalon (web comic) but Copper (comic) and Freefall (webcomic). Should this matter? Heck, between this page and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Webcomics, we can't even agree on whether it's one word or two (hell, I'm almost certainly inconsistent in my usage, as well). Any ideas, or does it just not matter one way or the other? --Ray Radlein 05:20, Feb 4, 2005 (UTC)

Alexa

I'm sorry if this seems obvious to you, but I'm not very familiar with Alexa. Which ranking is the relevant one for our purposes? It must be "reach," I guess, because "Views" is always very very low, even for very popular sites. --Iustinus 29 June 2005 19:15 (UTC)

Traffic Rank. A lower number means higher traffic (a rank of 1 is the most popular site among Alexa users). — Gwalla | Talk 29 June 2005 21:24 (UTC)

The project page says "Alexa will be used to determine traffic for any web comic with its own domain name. If the web comic has a 3-month average traffic above 200,000, it can be considered to be an entry that could be allowed in Wikipedia." Surely this does not refer to "Traffic Rank"? Unless "above" actually means "below" I suppose (how to phrase such a ranking could be confusing). --Iustinus 30 June 2005 05:56 (UTC)

That's precisely what it means. If something is ranked #1, it said to be ranked higher than something ranked #2. — Gwalla | Talk 30 June 2005 23:38 (UTC)

Perhaps you guys should reword it "The webcomic must attain a rank equal to or higher than 200,000 in a continuous 3 month period" or something... seems kind of confusing the way it is now... Sasquatch′↔Talk↔Contributions July 9, 2005 09:57 (UTC)

I just changed it from "above 200,000" to "better than 200,000", since that is what is meant. It is often necessary to explain to people that a higher number than 200,000 is actually worse, not better. (This usually comes up in VfD discussions.) It might be good to go further in clarifying, but it's a start. -Aranel ("Sarah") 15:31, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

New idea

Since, well, Wikiprojects can't actually set global policy, I propose this as our new inclusion guidelines:

Articles that survive VfD or are not nominated for VfD will be included.

How's it sound? Snowspinner 16:49, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Sounds blindingly obvious. I like it. Nifboy 18:46, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Wikiprojects can't set global policy, but they can suggest criteria for evaluating a subject, as WP:MUSIC has demonstrated. — Gwalla | Talk 02:28, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Notability based on something other than popularity or longevity?

Essentially, I'm wondering what criteria might be used to determine a comic's notability, outside of its Alexa rank (which is rather strict) or the size of its archives (which doesn't fly in VfD in practice). Possible criteria might include:

• Web Cartoonists’ Choice Awards winners and/or nominees.
• Members (past and present) of various collectives, such as Keenspot or Modern Tales (probably what groups will be included will be determined individually).
• Comics which are the focus of articles in Comixpedia or other notable webcomic sites.

Thoughts/suggestions? Nifboy 08:08, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

What about webcomic lists on the internet already? I know they function as ranking lists, but like Keenspace, they act as internet communites for webcomic artists. Buzzcomix and TopWebComics immediately come to mind. --Shirley Grace 03:12, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

notability template

I thinking of making a notability template That will simply outline the requirements that can be pasted in a discussion or used in some other manner. It will be at {{webcomic notability}}. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 11:50, 2005 September 2 (UTC)

My thoughts on Notability: I think Proposal B ought to be eliminated completely. Not every comic that reaches 100 strips and 33 weeks is notable. Or better yet, almost no comic is notable after only 100 strips and 33 weeks. Updating 3 times a week for 8 months does not equal instant notability. Proposal A is pretty good. Alexa rank under 200,000 reflects that a large number of readers find the comic notable. Proposal C isn't bad, though again a comic doesn't reach instant notability after 5 years if no one reads it. Maybe Proposal C should only be used for webcomics that have stopped publishing, since comics that have stopped publishing are unlikely to still have the readers to have Alexa 200,000 hits? Thoughts? --Dragonfiend 14:14, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Proposal B is basically used as CSD criteria at this point; it's very easy to kill a webcomic in VfD if it doesn't meet those criteria. Proposal A has a fairly narrow scope, and it's generally agreed upon that a comic like Bruno is notable despite its abysmal Alexa rank of ~600k. Nifboy 16:15, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

What's the point of a template? Where would this be inserted? — Gwalla | Talk 03:38, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

I was thinking of eventually making it like the babel template, in that we insert it into the talk page with the relevant inclusion items highlighted. I'm just trying to figure out a way to make the notability more prominent. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 20:13, 2005 September 6 (UTC)

I put it on the front page of the project. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 09:13, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I am not happy with the way this template is being used on AfD's to give implied legitimacy to a set of proposed guidelines which are not, and won't be, supported by most wikipedia editors. I added the word "proposed" to the template, but I'm still not happy. -- SCZenz 22:12, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

I have listed it for deletion. Using a template to give legitimacy to proposed and controversal guidelines like this is plainly not kosher; if you want to make arguments on AfD debates from proposed (or even existing!) policy, the place to do it is within your own signed comments, not in unsigned templates plastered at the top of the discussion. --Aquillion 22:22, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Thoughts on Inclusion Criteria

I apologise for starting a new discussion on this page when there is already ongoing discussion before it, but it seems that those threads seem to have petered out. I came across List of webcomics yesterday, and to me, it looks to me like Wikipedia is being way to lax about inclusion guidelines.

There seems to be so much dreck on that list, and I feel that the inclusion guidelines are way too lax. If I were to post 100 stick man comics onto keenspace, does that make it notable, and worthy for an article? No way. In WP:MUSIC, the band/artist needs to have some kind of influence/acknowledgment outside their own musical circle. For many webcomics on wikipedia, this simply isn't the case, no one outside the the webcomic community will know about them, and only a small subset of that community will actually follow a specific comic.

Webcomics, being self published, means that very few will ever gain major attention. This does not mean we should lower inclusion boundaries to make sure we have many webcomic articles. Say a band has been around for a few years now, without a record deal, but with quite a few self published EPs and maybe an LP. They have a good local following, and play out regularly to some packed out small venue. They wouldn't warrant an article, yet a similarly popular webcomic with a readership of a few hundred apparently do?

Above, the idea was mentioned that any webcomic of over 100 deserve a wikipedia article, because no other encyclopedia would publish it due to lack of space. But just because the information could not be included anywhere else, doesn't mean that wikipedia should house it. You know what a great idea would be? A separate webcomic wiki, where even the webcomics with tiny readership could get an article. We could link it from any webcomic articles and it'd would be a great place to transwiki stuff to as well as acting as an encyclopedia of webcomics. - Hahnchen 01:13, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Maybe that would be useful for a seperate wiki, but many of these are perfectly notable for Wikipedia. Incidentally, the band you describe would also be likely to have an article that would survive AfD - we have many of those articles on Wikipedia, and I'm thankful for that. Ambi 01:37, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

That band would have been deleted as vanity. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, when I say without a record deal, I mean never ever had a record deal. And when I say a few EPs, i mean just some stuff they copied and sell at gigs. And by gigs, I mean nightclubs and bars in a town. No way is that notable enough, if it was I could list a whole string of bands in Scarborough, who perform regulary at the venues there and have a reasonable following, yet would be tossed off WP. But a tiny readership webcomic like many on WP, just because they have lasted 100 strips (how hard is that?) warrants an article. As tempted as I am to write an article on Fleetwood Back, the tribute band with the best name in Scarborough, I won't. - Hahnchen 02:14, 24 September 2005 (UTC), Hunter of all things self-promotory.

You are right, 100 comics does not mean notability. Yes, people have written articles for non-notable comics. If you find one, nominate it for deletion. Dragonfiend 04:08, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Looking around at some of these comics, I see that there does infact exist a comic wiki, at ComixPedia, there seems to be a lot of stuff on wikipedia, that should belong at the comic wiki and only migrate across when notability is established. I think we should toughen up the inclusion criteria. What if a blogger makes 100 posts, are they entitled to an article? Some blogs are quite popular and read by many inside the enclosed blogging community, and will have some dedicated readers. Yet, they don't deserve an article, because there is no notability outside of the "blogosphere", the same should apply with webcomics. - Hahnchen 00:06, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the guidelines look too lax to me, too. If we applied similiar ones to bands, as pointed out above, every bar band that stuck around for a little while would qualify. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure why web comics need seperate criteria from any other website. A look at recent VFDs shows that quite a few wikipedians are willing to suggest a delete, even on things that may pass the standards suggested here. Friday (talk) 16:32, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

My opinion is that these guidelines are not only much too lax, they are not even to the point. In my opinion checking for importance of a webcomic should not be measured by how long it has been running, but by something like the Google test, with a limit at 1000 (or 500 or whatever) links. There would however be the problem that many webcomics have names that also occur in other contexts.

I would even endorse a very restrictive policy on webcomics - something like "any webcomic included should have a specific reason for that". We don't habitually include series from self-published authors either. - Andre Engels 11:33, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Certainly no amount of longevity is sufficient. There are some webcomics I love, both widely-read and much less so, and I respect people who stick to writing them whether they're widely-read or not. But if there aren't people reading them, they're not notable. -- SCZenz 22:44, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

• When I compare the currently proposed standards for webcomics to the standards at WP:MUSIC the primary difference I see is that all criteria used for determining musical notability will generate independent sources to verify the accuracy of material. Top 100 hits, album releases by major studios, or large musical tours generates reports in the music press while major awards are commonly reported by the mainstream media. Looking at the currently proposed standards for webcomics yields only the Alexa test as an independent source. I would sugest the best place to look for better guidelines is in finding additional independent sources to help webcomics meet current verification policies. One you find a source not associated with a webcomic that can verify a reasonable amount of information on the comic you will have also found a source that shows that people not directly associated with the comic have an interest in the subject. --Allen3 ^talk 01:13, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I strongly agree with Allen3. Basing such a large part of this guideline on Alexa rankings seems inadequate, and at the same time also overtly reliant on a non-perfect webranking system. On that note, could we at least include some of the cautioning comments from Wikipedia:Alexa Test in this guideline? I know it's slightly redundant, but it never hurts to be clear, especially when one of the proposals in the guideline places such great importance in the Alexa rank. And basing it simply on quantity doesn't seem a very good measure of notability either.

I just have absolutely no idea what would be a better "independent source" than Alexa, as far as webcomics go. The only thing I can think of is that receiving, and, for some of the bigger ones, being nominated for an award automatically qualifies you as "notable" (although I have a feeling that most awardwinners already qualify by traffic). E.g. the Eisner awards, the Webby Awards, and maybe the Web Cartoonist's Choice Awards. Anyone have more (and better) ideas for "independent sources"? --Codemonkey 03:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

It would be difficult to come up with a worse source than Alexa. Besides, what about obviously notable strips that ended several years ago? They're going to be underrepresented even if we can somehow find an accurate webranking system. Web rankings are not the way to go. Factitious 05:29, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

That is the reason why I don't normally nominate dead comics. Where the only way is to do lookups on google to establish some sort of notability. Obviously notable strips which ended several years ago, will have some sort of google presence. It's the borderline notable strips which ended several years ago which I have been wary of nominating. I'm also wary of using toplists of webcomics as a reference, as most of the top comics are link spammed there. The main gripe, is that webcomics normally generate at least a few die hard fans, who then proceed to create an article about the webcomic just because it has over 100 strips in the archive, and there are more non notable ones on wikipedia. I feel that a webcomic should assert its notability in the article, whether its due to popularity, status of the author, or notoriety etc. I mean, I reckon Fireman Comics should probably deserve an article, even though it only had about 25 strips, because it made the front page of SomethingAwful a few times (not as ALOD) and was written by Kevin Bowen. - Hahnchen 16:55, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'm thinking out a bit more of a balanced proposal. What I have come up with so far are some starting points; some preambles if you will.

1. The assertion that a comic with a Alexa rank better than 200,000 is notable is a reasonable one.
2. The assertion that a comic with a Alexa rank worse than 200,000 is automatically non-notable isn't necessarily true.
   1. As noted by Wikipedia:Alexa Test Alexa has a build in bias. Also, it's software is perceived by a part of the more technicaly literate community on the internet as spyware, and as such is biased against the sites they visit. I'd pose (without too much evidence beyond the anecdotal, I'm afraid) that there is enough overlap between the webcomic reader community and the just mentioned anti-spyware community for it to affect Alexa rankings.
   2. There are certain cases where Alexa rank will disqualify a notable webcomic for other reasons:
      1. Cases where a (once) notable comic has gone into archive mode.
      2. Cases where an erratic update schedule makes well-read and known (notable) comics' readership read the comic in such a pattern that it is harder for Alexa to pick up.
      3. Cases where something has garnered critical acclaim and/or recognition, but hasn't yet picked up a sufficiently large reader audience.
   3. On the other hand, Alexa might over inflate the rankings of certain webcomics
      1. This is mostly a concern when a webcomic does not have it's own domain name, but functions under a sub-domain or sub-page of a larger website
3. A lot of the points made above are about what legitimate problems one may have when one takes Alexa ranking as a starting point for assessing notability. Thus, a large part of those points can be solved by simply having a better independent source than Alexa, or webrankings in general.

So the gist of my thoughts is that (1) we can use Alexa as a starting point for determining webcomic notability, but (2) there are some legitimate problems with Alexa ranking, that either need to be addressed point for point, or (3) we should replace the Alexa rank with an independent source better than Alexa.

If we can't agree on a better independent source than Alexa, we should at least address the concerns with Alexa for now.

I can see some obvious solutions of some of the noted concerns already. For instance, the mentioned bias in point 2.1 is in part negated by the fact that this guideline uses the cut-off point of 200,000 instead of the Wikipedia standard of 100,000. It's still something to be mindful about though.

For point 2.2.3, I can see us just listing a couple of the big Awards with regards to webcomics, and it might also be a good idea to flesh out Hahnchen's comment about "a webcomic should assert its notability in the article, whether its due to popularity, status of the author, or notoriety" a bit more and put it in the guideline. For example, as a final clause to the guideline "If notability cannot be established by above methods, wikipedians should try to establish notability in the article based on status of the author, notoriety, or mention by a reputable independent source or mainstream media in the article, and should take said factors into consideration for possible VfDs"(again, just an example). In fact, I strongly think this should be good idea. (and I agree with Hahnchen that toplists should be avoided here)

Did I forget anything? Other comments and/or corrections on my points? --Codemonkey 19:34, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi everybody, just wanted to add my 2 cents to this issue:

• "Someone other than the webcartoonist needs to actually write and develop the article in question" - a definite yes. I think this should be a general wikipedia guideline, nobody should write or edit his own article if he is so lucky to have one. Prevents vanity articles and make sure that the topic is at least interesting to 2 people in the world :-)
• "Traffic" or "age" "number of strips" as a delimiter: Those numbers are easy to check, but they don't correspond with the main question of inclusion in a encyclopedia: Has it affected people? Did it matter to them? How does this article compare with other articles that have been included/removed? I think the only way to solve those issues is to have a public vote for every article and ask those questions. In order to remove ballot-stuffing, a karma-system (sometime) or only-one-vote-per-ip (asap) should be added to the features the mediawiki code.
• This is a turning point in wikipedia, as it might move from "encyclopedia" to "a copy of every information possible at one place". While the second option sounds interesting, it would also add many problems to the existing architeture. Maybe a different wiki could be setup for the latter task?

Anyway, that's my thoughts. Cheers! Peter S. 19:29, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

There already is a place that (very nearly) contains "a copy of [all] information possible at one place"--the internet itself! The primary goal of wikipedia is to make sure the internet has all of the well-documented information that's currently published in other forms, not to categorize things you can already find with a google search. -- SCZenz 20:11, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Yup. Also see WP:NOT, Wikipedia's goal is definitely not to just include "everything". As for the "Someone other than the webcartoonist needs to actually write and develop the article in question", that is indeed sort of official policy, see WP:VANITY and WP:AUTO. The reason this is in the article and worded the way it is, is mostly because it's an artefact of basing that proposal on a websnark article (linked in the proposal). It really should just be changed to include a mention of wp:vanity or wp:auto, sort of like "Expanding on the Wikipedia Autobiography guidelines, a webcartoonist shall not write an article on his own comic.". -- Codemonkey

Replacement for Alexa?

There seems to be a common argument that, because Alexa is biased, it shouldn't be used for the comic criteria. This is reasonable, but many people on the AfD pages seem to believe it also follows that no proof that anyone reads the comic is required. This is silly. I don't care how it is done, but somehow there must be a verifiable assertion that a lot of people read a comic for it to be counted as notable simply because it exists. (Of course, there may also be other reasons it's notable too; I'm speaking for cases where there aren't.) -- SCZenz 19:58, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Draft for an improved Alexa proposal

So, I made a draft of improvements to the Alexa proposal, taking into account most of what I've read on this page. Feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Alexa will be used to determine traffic for any webcomic with its own domain name. If the webcomic has a average traffic better than 200,000, it can be considered to be an entry that could be allowed in Wikipedia. The traffic average can be for the last 3 months or any 6 consecutive months in the past. Webcomics that have since retired (and thus are not receiving new, regular traffic) may also remain in Wikipedia.

• It's not really made explicit that that the 3 months are the last 3 months of traffic or not, and I feel it's wise to make it explicit here. The reason for including any 6 month period in the past is to prevent the non-inclusion of once traffic heavy sites that have since dropped of, without getting too lax.
  • After I wrote this, I found out that Alexa doesn't allow you to view longer than a 1 year history for pages with a 100,000+ rank. I kept it in this draft, because we need something to this effect, and I haven't figured out what to replace it with. So, any suggestions for an easy way of checking up on once notable comics with a now dropped rank? This has been breaking my head mostly...

As noted by wikipedia:Alexa test, Alexa has certain biases built into it's system, and is perceived by a group of people as spyware. The usage of 200,000 as a cut-off point, instead of the Wikipedia standard of 100,000, negates a part of this bias, but it is still something Wikipedians should be mindful about.

• This might be a bit too long, but I feel we should at least echo some of the concerns about the alexa bias from the alexa test page, and make explicit that we are using a much wider cut-off point than on Wikipedia:Alexa Test.

Alexa rank does not differentiate it's alexa rank for websites that are hosted under a common domainname. The "Where do people go on ...?" section under traffic details at Alexa can be used in these cases. As a rough guideline, a page should get 50%+ of the traffic on a domain with a 100,000 or better rank, or 75%+ of the traffic on a domain with 200,000 or better rank. One notable occurrence of this is at KeenSpace, for which the entire top 25 can be included.

• Current Alexa proposal doesn't deal with this at all, beyond the keenspace part. I could use some feedback on the numbers I came up with. My feeling is that they are a bit high, Alexa rank does not progress linearly with regards to real website traffic.

There are certain other criteria that will qualify a comic as notable. If a comic has garnered critical acclaim through any of the following means:

• receiving or being nominated for a Web Cartoonist's Choice Awards
  • I was tempted to not put up nominees here, because they nominate quite a few every year, but a lot of them are big comics and duplicate nominations in different categories, so being nominated in between all the big names is quite an achievement.
• Being the focus of a piece at websnark.com or comixpedia.com (a mention as an aside does not count)
  • I don't read these, but from what I know they're reasonably well read in the community and reflect said community reasonably well. They seem ok indications of "it is at least well-known in a community", per wikipedia:Importance.
• Any mention by non-webcomic related, mainstream media that goes beyond one sentence

If the webcomic has proof of having an audience, through other means than Alexa:

• being listed in the top 10 of webcomic toplists topwebcomics.com or buzzcomix.net
  • I'm afraid I mostly put this in as a strawman. ;) I don't think it would be a good idea to use these, but I know some here do, so I would just like to see what the consensus about this is.
• Having a book listed at Amazon with a sales rank of 100,000 or better
  • You'd be surprised how many of the webcomics have stuff listed there, even the smaller ones. Need some feedback on the number.

A webcomic article should always try to establish the webcomic's notability in the article itself. If a webcomic does not manage to qualify by the above stated requirements, an article about it should be able to establish the comic's notability in another way:

• historical importance of the webcomic for the history of webcomics in general
• because of it's author's notability
• because it is a spin-off of a notable webcomic
• because of an established notoriety of the webcomic in the community
• because there is a clear and strong connection of the comic to something that clearly is encyclopedic (a conection in real-life terms, so a webcomic about George Bush does not count)

Wikipedians should also keep these last criteria in mind in possible Article for Deletion votes. And, because of their broad nature, should not hesitate to apply them in a fairly strict manner. The burden of proof lies with the article in these cases, so to speak. If an article should be up for deletion, consider transwikifying it to the webcomic wiki at comixpedia.org.

These are merely guidelines. Sites that are close to, but still under these thresholds may also be included on the basis that webcomics customarily grow in size and have a higher likelihood of increasing in readership and, thus, becoming encyclopedic. In all cases, wikipedians should take into account all factors mentioned and unmentioned in assessing notability, and judge articles on a case by case basis.

I have tried to express myself as clear and to the point as possible. I hope I've succeeded in writing something that addresses most of the concerns voiced here. Again, I would greatly appreciate feedback, especialy on ideas I may have forgotten for the lists in this draft. --Codemonkey 23:15, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Comments on Alexa or alternatives

For what it's worth, I agree. I'd get rid of Alexa if we could, but there may not be an alternative way to establish readership in some way. But what we really need is dialogue from people who want much more inclusive standards. Any comments? -- SCZenz 06:38, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Alexa rank of 200K? This just means that the creator of the webcomic hasn't got the tool bar installed, becaues that's all it takes to get a lower ranking than this. - brenneman^(t)(c) 07:08, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Ouch. I knew there were problems with the rank, but I didn't know it was quite that extreme. Like I said in some comments above, I'm not a big fan of Alexa and I'd rather do away with it altogether. I just don't know what to replace it with. When I wrote this, I kept this Beowulf versus Dante writers reasoning by Neal Stephenson in mind (see second question), which seemed a somewhat apt description of some of the objections that people were making to an Alexa only proposal. So Alexa pulls in the "Beowulf writers", and the other requirements try to pull in the "Dante writers", who are not necessarily well read, but have managed to make themselves notable to a community in an other way.

The biggest reason we use Alexa is of course to prevent the manipulation of traffic stats that are being kept by the site itself. But if Alexa is that easy to manipulate, well, that's a problem... I still don't know what better way there is to pull these Beowulf writers in. --Codemonkey 19:12, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe instead of Alexa requirements, we should have a policy more like:

• In the absence of other evidence of notability, a webcomic should have a verifiable claim to exceptional popularity and wide readership.

Put the burden of proof on the article-writers. The issues with Alexa specifically are obscuring the real point: a webcomic should be notable, and that requires rather broad readership if there are no awards or other notable facts. -- SCZenz 19:24, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I strongly oppose any notion that article-writers and articles have to prove their worth. I think exclusion is always where the burden of proof lies. Snowspinner 19:26, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

There has to be some reason the article's in an encyclopedia--that's what we're discussing! If the strip has no awards, the artist hasn't done anything else in particular, and there isn't some way to state verifiably that the comic is popular... why is it here? How can we prove it isn't notable, if there's no assertion of any reason it might be notable in the first place? -- SCZenz 21:42, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

If a strip has an article, it's here because Wikipedia contributors thought it would be a valuable addition to the encyclopedia. If you want to delete their work, you should provide a reason. Factitious 17:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

This is a guideline, not a Wikipedia policy. It's intended to help both the Wikipedians that want to start an article and those voting in a AvD, giving them some form of reference point for notability. As such, I don't think "In the absence of other evidence of notability, a webcomic should have a verifiable claim to exceptional popularity and wide readership." as a replacement to Alexa is very helpful to Wikipedians in these cases. As for giving a reason for deletion, I can guarantee that if we don't have a firm and verifiable way to establish this in either this guideline or in a article, you will just see a long string of "Delete - Non notable." votes in webcomics' AfDs. --Codemonkey 19:33, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok, so maybe we use Alexa, but also accept any alternate evidence that the comic has wide readership. I don't want to give anyone the impression that all our decisions are made based on one flawed popularity-counter. -- SCZenz 20:56, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

That sounds good to me. --Codemonkey 22:33, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Regarding Factitious's argument, we need to have some kind of standard for what's encyclopediaic other than "someone thought it would be valuable." There are concrete standards that exclude companies below a certain size or notoriety, and rather strict standards for bands and music. There's no reason webcomics should be different. -- SCZenz 20:56, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Syndicate, keenspace, etc. membership

I propose that we need to also have "Is on a major webcomics syndicate" including Keenspot, Blank Label Comics, and any of the Modern Tales family on the list. Snowspinner 19:26, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

We already have "is it in the top 25 on Keenspot", and could have similar standards for other syndicates. Wikipedia should not be a catalogue of the many Keenspot comics--that's what the Keenspot article links to Keenspot for. -- SCZenz 21:42, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

No. You have a top-25 on KeenSPACE. Keenspace is the free, anyone can post a webcomic service run by the same company that does Keenspot, which is a syndicate where the strips are selected by editors, often, though not always from the strips at Keenspace. Which is to say that by definition, all Keenspot strips are more important and bigger than Keenspace strips. Snowspinner 21:51, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Ah, duly noted. The organization there has always confused me. Presumably what you say makes sense then, although I'll have to look around a bit. -- SCZenz 22:09, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm with Snowspinner on this. As far as I'm concerned, if it's on Keenspot, Blank Label, Modern Tales, GraphicSmash, Girlamatic, or any other respected webcomic venue, it's sufficiently notable by default. Likewise if it's a WCCA or any other similar award. -Abe Dashiell 21:45, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

As far as Keenspot comics go, thankfully most of those comics operate under their own domainname, and in the case that a comic does not qualify under these criteria, I'm not sure it would be notable merely because it is a keenspot comic. As for the other webcomic syndicates, if a comic is truly notable for said syndicate's history, it should be included in the article about the syndicate, and could get an overflow article if a syndicate's article gets too big. If it does not qualify under those terms or under the traffic, critical acclaim, or other notability criteria pertaining to said specific comic, I don't think said comic is notable. --Codemonkey 19:33, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

That's absurd. If a webcomic has, for some reason, reached the point that it's being done professionally (As with any of the Modern Tales suite) or it has been added to a money-making syndicate, it's notable enough - certainly more notable than the most notable Keenspace comic. Snowspinner 20:13, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

That's not absurd. It's like saying that every band which has been signed to a music label automatically qualifies for an entry. Or every book that has ever been published also qualifies for an article. I am certain, that the most notable keenspace comic is more notable than quite a few keenspot comics. Maybe the art is good enough for the keenspot moderators or the story is good enough, but if the public don't agree by not reading the comic, then I don't think it would warrant a wikipedia article. Graphic Smash may be in itself notable, but how notable are the individual comics? Whereas I believe say a blogging portal may be notable, I would be against saying that every blog belonging to that portal is notable. - Hahnchen 13:20, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I point out that WP:MUSIC states as an inclusion criteria, "Has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels (i.e. an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of which are notable)" Snowspinner 04:14, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but whereas if an album flops on an important indie label or greater, the artist would be dropped, maybe never to be heard of again. This is something that does not happen with webcomics, the webcomic label does not risk losing much financially if a comic fails. Thus, for a band to have released 2 albums on a major independent label, one can be assured that the first album had at least a moderate success. With say graphic smash, whereas there is a bar for inclusion, it is the comics which "advertise" the label, we see the label's success. With a music label, the label advertises the bands, and we see the band's success. Which is why, I feel for small webcomic groups, that the separate webcomics are merely the collective identity of the group. Whereas a band is more than just "part of the portfolio". It is the reason why I would much more be in favour of small webcomic groups having their separate webcomic details merged with the group article. - Hahnchen 15:41, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

• Comment - Top 25 on keenspace should not be a criteria for inclusion. It's too lax, even if the comic is long running. It would be like listing the top 100 geocities hosted sites. I think the comics should be looked at individually, and not have any simple "top 25 on keenspace, instant keep" votes. A comic must assert its notability. I have not yet nominated any Keenspot comics for deletion, but I feel that there may be some non notable ones that have been hosted on keenspot at some time. The same goes with many of the syndicates. A band is not notable just because it has been signed to the same record company as Moby, just as a comic is not notable just because it belongs to a syndicate. I would be more inclined to merge the non notable webcomics with the syndicate they belong to, and have separate articles for the notable ones. Metroblogging is about a rather popular blogging portal, (looks more popular than most webcomic syndicates), the main article was kept, but do you think articles on the individual blogs would be kept? A webcomic has to display its notability other than having a core bunch of fans, and being long running, which almost every website out there could claim to be. - Hahnchen 12:12, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Obviously we should have at least 25 Keenspace comic articles. The real issue is whether some particular "top 25" list is accurate enough to be a reliable source. Do you have any information on its quality? Factitious 17:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

It's by no means obvious how many keenspace comic articles we should have. I'm against the "top 25 on keenspace" kind of idea. Just as I would be against a "top 100 on geocities" kind of idea. It's not like wikipedia has to fill quotas. Being one of the most popular 25 comics on a free comic hosting site at one point or another would mean a shedload of totally unnotable comics meet the inclusion criteria. Maybe there are 25 notable comics which are currently hosted on keenspace, but if there are, the article should assert its notability, other than the "top 25 on keenspace" reason. - Hahnchen 13:20, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I'd also propose a "notable writer/artist" rule, akin to Keenspot's "Once a Keenspotter, always a Keenspotter" rule, whereby new comics by Keenspot artists are automatically accepted to Keenspot. By this rule, if a notable webcomic artist or writer starts a new project, that project is by definition notable. Notability being defined by one of their previous projects being notable. Snowspinner 18:39, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Isn't this covered by the "because of it's author's notability, because it is a spin-off of a notable webcomic" criteria I proposed? --Codemonkey 19:33, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I can kind of agree with this. For example, any piece of work David Hockney produces would be inherently notable. A piece of work by a notable webcomic artist would also be notable. But I'm wary of this stretching too far. Just as not every pencil sketch by a notable artist is notable, not everything a notable webcomic artist produces is notable. Things like tiny/aborted side projects which never garnered critical attention or popularity should not have an article of their own, but exist within an article for the webcomic artist. - Hahnchen 13:20, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

WP:COMIC

(Section archived here from Village pump Steve block talk 13:29, 17 October 2005 (UTC))

I would like people to take a look at the webcomic inclusion guidelines found at WP:COMIC, as well as taking a look at Webcomics on AFD. My problem with them is that the guideline followed by some is this, "All webcomics over 100 strips should be included". Before someone grouped the afds together, most were being deleted. However, we now have a couple of totally un notable webcomics which seem to be heading towards no consensus. Some contributors on the Webcomic Wikiproject, which aims to catalogue every webcomic with over 100 posts, are claiming that as soon as 100 strips are reached, if someone writes an article for it, it should be kept.

I totally disagree with this. Since when did longevity equal notability? Since when is 100 strips even notable? Bands can last for years without achieving notability, but if we followed similar criteria for any other category, almost every bar room band which has been around for 6 months would be notable enough for an article. AzNPRiNc3SS's 500 livejournal posts would mean her article would be kept. For example, take a look at this - Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/String_Finger_Theatre and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Our Home Planet. Absolutely NO assertion of notability is made, or can be found anywhere in the articles. The keep votes purely say "comic has existed past 100 strips". How hard is it for a stickman comic to achieve notability? Its not like the artist has to invest time or money into it is it?

But please, take a look at WP:COMIC and contribute to the talk pages as well as the Webcomics on AFD. In my opinion, it's time for the inclusion criteria to be tightened up in line with some of the other guidelines. The extreme webcomic inclusionists have also ignored the 1st proposal, an Alexa rank of sub 200,000. And I too, have not nominated any webcomics even approaching this rank. But surely, if a webcomic has any sort of popularity, it can break the 1 million mark can't it? Please contribute to the guideline discussion, as well as the AFDs, we need more eyes on them. - Hahnchen 17:16, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree that WP:COMIC has criteria that are too lenient, and that their guidelines should either be ignored completely or rewritten. However, most nominated webcomics are not being debated solely on proposals B and C. But some are, as your examples (which I just voted delete on) show. Bottom line is: yes, we need to keep an eye on this--and remember, what four people at WP:COMIC think might be a good idea is not policy! -- SCZenz 17:56, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, I think we need to increase visibility on this. But I posted this here, at this time, because the afds have now been concatenated together, and some users have just gone through them voting "keep - 100 strips". - Hahnchen 18:18, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

You are right, the problem is wider than I thought--as I look at more pages, I see more and more people voting keep based on the most lenient of the proposals. There has to be some way to get people who don't view massive inclusion of webcomics as their mission (and thus join WP:CMC) to have a reasonable voice in the criteria for keeping webcomics. As it is, they've got their page and their cute little template with the proposals, and it gives legitimacy to the view of a small, but enthusiastic minority. -- SCZenz 19:32, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree that there should be other criteria than "100 strips". The question with every encyclopedic article is "has it affected people?" A strip can even reach 100 episodes without being read by more than 10 people or so, which hardly counts as "has affected the people". Do tell me, on which talk pages do I have to express this concern as well and I'll do it. Cheers, Peter S. 19:06, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

You could comment on WP:COMIC although I don't think they'll listen. Or you can go to each AfD on Webcomics on AFD and vote Delete, explaining you think a lack of notability trumps writing a hundred strips (if it's warranted). That's what I did. -- SCZenz 19:32, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

How about if the procedure is changed: Without enough proof, an article is deleted? Peter S. 20:08, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Try posting your comments at the talk pages at WP:COMIC, but "proof" in the webcomic world is fickle indeed. Most often involve one line mentions in questionable blogs, or review by a webcomic portals. Almost certainly nothing outside of the webcomic community. - Hahnchen 20:11, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, that already is Wikipedia's general procedure. Only verifiable information is included in anything. -- SCZenz 20:14, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

No, you got me wrong here: Currently, the creator of the "request for delete" poll has to list reasons why the article should be removed. How about, in the webcomic domain, one adds a "request for delete" and the creators of the article have to defend why it should remain there. How about that? Peter S. 20:20, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, you have to list why the article should be removed. But saying "not notable" or "all claims are unverifiable" are both completely legitimate reasons. And then, as you say, the creators of the article have to defend it. -- SCZenz 22:50, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

By the way, Hahnchen, is the plan to keep Webcomics on AFD continuously up to date? If so, I'll watch it and join the crusade, AfD by AfD. -- SCZenz 19:32, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

• I have no idea what the plan is with the webcomic-afd watch. It seemed defunct up until recently, when a flurry of them got posted. I'd describe it as a stalinistic purge over a crusade, but I won't be nominating/voting as much due to being back at university and not yet having broadband installed at my flat. - Hahnchen 20:11, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

  It will have to be a crusade, because there will keep being new articles. Anyway, if other people want to post webcoming-afd's to keep an eye on, is that the right page to do it? -- SCZenz 20:14, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

  • I would personally be against grouping AFDs, as it'll turn into a hitlist for inclusionists. It is very easy to turn a valid delete into no consensus. Look at the farce that is school watch. - Hahnchen 14:43, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Alexa revisited

A great deal has been said on the strengths and weaknesses of the "Alexa test" already. I don't really have much to add to that discussion so I won't regurgitate all the arguments. I will, however, note that the standard espoused on this page is at odds with the much more long-standing standard which was recently consolidated to Wikipedia:Google test#Alexa test. This page alleges that 200,000 on the Alexa test is automatically notable for a webcomic but the main page says that a page (on any topic) in the top 100,000 is merely a maybe. I'm going to be bold and bring this project page into compliance with the main guidelines. Before anyone changes it back, let's have a specific discussion here on why webcomic should be held to a different standard in those few situations where the Alexa test is the right measure. Thanks. Rossami (talk) 17:27, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

I am fine with this if and only if alternate means for notability like syndicate inclusion, award nomination, or critical attention are added. Snowspinner 17:29, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Agree with snowspinner. Say, we really need to move forward on hammering out one proposal and putting it up! -- SCZenz 17:37, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Notable syndicates

This doesn't solve all the problems - there are still at least two strips I can think of where I think the strips are notable, but they're not captured by any of the syndicate rules. But at the very least, the following syndicates should be considered notable, along with all of their contents.

• The entire Modern Tales family (Modern Tales, Girlamatic, Graphic Smash, Serializer)
• Keenspot
• Blank Label
• Dayfree

There are some other things that need to be sorted out - we need to decide what to do about WebcomicsNation, which is like Keenspace.

Also, there are at least two comics that aren't making it by Alexa or syndicate rules that I think are highly notable - Cat and Girl (Alexa just under 100,000) and Her! Girl vs Pig (Alexa way down near 500,000). So we've got a start with the syndicates, but even syndicates+Alexa, the guidelines have too many holes. Cat and Girl has a review on Webcomics Examiner, which is probably a good source for notability - I believe it was proposed above, and if it wasn't, then substantial coverage in it, Comixpedia, or Websnark should cound for notability. Her! was a comic that started in a magazine with 4.5 million circulation. Magazine went under, comic went to the web. Its guest strips section indicates substantial love among webcomics creators (Several notable creators have done guest strips), it's been mentioned in passing on Websnark as a strip that he reds, but no one thing decisively establishes notability according to any proposed guideline. But it would still be a VERY bad strip to delete. Snowspinner 18:40, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

• I disagree that all comics that are part of groups like Modern Tales, Serializer, Keenspot, etc. are necessarily notable. The least read Modern Tales comic, for example, is quite possibly non-notable. I would also hesitate to put too much stock in webcomics news and fan sites like Comixpedia or Websnark. A comic being mentioned on a fan blog is not the same as, say, Narbonic being discussed in the New York Times. Dragonfiend 19:13, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Dragonfiend, how can we have consensus-agreed guidelines without including such things in some way? And how, without guidelines, can we avoid divisive AfD's whose outcomes depend largely on which side gets out the vote better? I agree the details need to be worked out, but this is much better than having simply existing as a criterion. -- SCZenz 19:38, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
    • I think you can use things like coverage in Comixpedia or the Web Comics Examiner or membership in the Modern Tales family as indicators of POSSIBLE notability. Just don't use them as automatic notability, as in "If it was on Modern Tales for a week or mentioned on Comixpedia once then it must be notable." For example, Cat and Girl would not be considered notable on its Alexa Ranking alone, nor just for the fact that Dorothy Gambrell is a Modern Tales artist, but the fact that the comic almost meets the Alexa test COMBINED with the fact that she's a Modern Tales artist would indicate notability. Dragonfiend 20:33, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
  • I am not sure how to respond to this other than saying that you are very, very far off base in your understanding of Modern Tales, the role of Websnark and Comixpedia, and what constitutes an important webcomic right now. The least popular comic on a professional webcomics syndicate is more notable than the most popular comic that still hasn't been found good enough for a syndicate. Comixpedia is one of two sites doing good and detailed work on webcomics and the artistry of webcomics, and while it is not a peer reviewed journal, there's only been a peer-reviewed journal for discussion of comics in general for a year or so now. Websnark is quite a kingmaker in terms of webcomic readership, and the staff on both the Examiner and Comixpedia are important people who make a lot of waves on the subject. It's just incorrect to call them "fan sites" or to call Websnark a "fan blog." I don't really know what else to say past that. Snowspinner 19:43, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
    • No, the least popular comic on a professional webcomics syndicate is NOT more notable than the most popular comic that still hasn't been found "good enough for a syndicate." Mega Tokyo and Get Your War On are each more notable than Life on Forbez, for example. Can we have this conversation in an open-minded fashion, without accusing each other of being "very, very far off base in your understanding"? Thanks. Dragonfiend 20:16, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
      • I was referring to the top comics on Keenspace, which tend to be looking to move up to a syndicate - not the committed independent strips. Sorry for the lack of clarity. Snowspinner 20:30, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
        • OK, so now you're saying that "the top comics on Keenspace" are less notable than "the least popular comic on a professional webcomics syndicate"? That's still wrong -- or do you honestly think that Sexy Losers (listed by Alexa as most popular comic on Keespace) is less notable than former Graphic Smash comic Life on Forbez? (forgot signature) Dragonfiend 23:07, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Addendum - I think I may understand the confusion. There are two parts of Comixpedia - the wiki, which covers every webcomic, and the journal, which is edited and substantial and important. I was talking about the journal, not the Wiki, which I could at least see why someone would call a fan site, though I would disagree. Snowspinner 19:47, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
    • I personally am not confused by the difference between the .com comixpedia news site and the .org comixpedia wiki. I actually find the .com news site to be fairly useful, however I am aware that webcomics artists are able to post their own news to comixpedia, making it difficult to use an article on comixpedia as a strong indicator of notability. For example, if you visit the comixpedia homepage today you'll see a news item posted by Steve Hogan that the comic Acid keg will return in November. Steve Hogan is the creator of Acid Keg. Does an artist posting news about their own comic indicate that it is notable? I don't think so. Dragonfiend 20:25, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
      • The reviews and features sections, on the other hand? Snowspinner 20:30, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
        • It sounds like that would be overly confusing for Afds -- "No, it was on the good part of comixpedia, not the bad part." Maybe a better way to approach this would be by me posing this question: Can you name some notable webcomics that would be considered non-notable by every other standard except the "It was discussed on comixpedia" test? Dragonfiend 20:50, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
          • A Softer World doesn't seem to make it by any other standard that I can find. [2] is the Comixpedia review. It also got coverage in a column on Comixpedia by the main writer on Websnark. I believe that the article was VfDed once, and survived on the note that it had been hyped once by Warren Ellis, but I believe that was via his e-mail list, so that wasn't a verifiable mention. Comixpedia is the more verifiable and useful mention. Snowspinner 21:21, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
            • Pointing to an article that survived a vote for deletion without the "It was discussed on comixpedia" test does not support a need for the "It was discussed on comixpedia" test, does it? Again, can you name some notable webcomics that would be considered non-notable by every other standard except the "It was discussed on comixpedia" test? Dragonfiend 21:38, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
              • Softer World is still a good example - look at the VfD - Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/A Softer World. It survived by one vote that was changed an hour before the buzzer. Cut it rather close, I think. Snowspinner 21:49, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
                • I have already looked at the Vfd. Again, it survived without the "It was discussed on comixpedia" test, showing the "It was discussed on comixpedia" test to be unnecessary in that particular case. If the "It was discussed on comixpedia" test is necessary, surely you can point to several notable webcomics that would be considered non-notable by every other standard except the "It was discussed on comixpedia" test? More than just one article that survived just fien without it? Also, keep in mind that the "It was discussed on comixpedia" test would mean that every comic ever reviewed by comixpedia would be considered notable enough for a wikipeida article, including such gems of non-notability as L33T Pixels. Do you really think "L33T Pixels" is notable enough for a wikipedia article? Dragonfiend 22:16, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
                  • I'd prefer it have one to notable things getting deleted, at least. But I think this is where I point to the word "guidelines." We're not pushing for deletion-by-robot here, so much as for a general set of criteria that might be taken to make a webcomic notable. Snowspinner 22:36, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
                    • As a guideline for determining notability, "It was discussed on comixpedia" is worthless. 1) Comixpedia writes about non-notable comics like L33T Pixels all the time. 2) You haven't named a single notable webcomic that would need an "It was discussed on comixpedia" guideline to determine its notability. Any guidelines that include "It was discussed on comixpedia" are likely to be ignored. I think that's about all I have to say on trying to use such sites to determine notability. Dragonfiend 23:00, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
• Snowspinner, I think you may have to give up on a few webcomics that slip through the cracks. Our encyclopedia can't reflect solely its editors' judgements of quality (we're not in the business of building a syndicate ourselves), so there has to be some argument based on a source external to the comic. That's not to say that anything that doesn't meet WP:COMIC in its final form would get thrown out; if a comic were exceptional in some way, but missed the official guidelines, one could still argue against the AfD by using external sources to illustrate why it was exceptional. Having been in a magazine with large circulation, or an Alexa rating of almost enough, would both make me vote keep for sure. -- SCZenz 19:38, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
• I'd like to propose, now that I consider your example further, that significant mention, or inclusion, in any other medium (e.g. print) would also be part of the guidelines. -- SCZenz 19:41, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
  • I think that would get a lot of the problems fixed - especially if we also accept detailed coverage in any of the Big Three Webcomic Sites (Comixpedia, Websnark, the Examiner) Snowspinner 19:43, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
  • Yes, "significant mention, or inclusion, in any other medium (e.g. print)" should also be part of the guidelines in some form, but I don't want to see every webcomic that's self-published in a zine, or every high school or college newspaper comic that also has a web site, having an article here. Dragonfiend 20:54, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Yeah, that's why wording would include "significant circulation" as well. -- SCZenz 21:01, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

New multi-criterion proposal

I have put a new, detailed proposal at User:SCZenz/Webcomics/Proposal. Please read it there, and then comment on it here. Please note that I agree with all the numbered points in the proposal, but not necessarily with all the particular sites listed, which I haven't yet had time to research. But I think this is a realistic idea to focus a discussion on, giving us a starting place to hammer out details from. -- SCZenz 21:01, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

• One comment Snowspinner already mentioned: Comics Genesis (formerly keenspot Keenspace) doesn't list a top 20 anymore. I say we leave the point with their top 20 as is, and use that point only if we can verify the comic is in the top 20 by some other means. -- SCZenz 21:04, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
  • You mean "formerly keenspace." :) Snowspinner 21:08, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
    • Good thing they changed their name—I can never get that right! -- 21:09, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
• Could you place the guidelines in order from the criteria that most strongly indicates notability (I'd say Alexa rank) to the one that least strongly indicates notability (I'd say Coverage within the webcomics community)? Or, in other words, place the guielines that most people can agree upon at the top. Dragonfiend 23:05, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
  • I'll put them in the order that I think the most people can agree upon, but I won't claim that it's in order of strong indications of notability. Too POV-y.. ;) -- SCZenz 23:18, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Modern Tales

And now an objection to my own proposal. It seems like the spinoffs of Modern Tales have lots and lots of comics, a significant majority of which are redlinks. It's not so clear that all of these should automatically be notable. (There's no list in the Modern Tales article itself.) -- SCZenz 00:04, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

The fact that comics don't have articles yet does not seem to me to be a persuasive reason against their creation, anymore than the fact that someone did write an article is a persuasive reason against its deletion. Snowspinner 00:06, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

The fact that very few of a large set of articles have been written starts to be a vague indication of how much interest exists. Plus there are a very large number of comics on these pages, far more than Dayfree or Blank Label, an even more than Keenspot. It makes it harder to believe all of them are notable simply by virtue of association with the syndicate. -- SCZenz

Part of it is that all the Modern Tales sites have pay-for archives. So there's a comparatively fewer number of people who can go through the archives to do a thorough reading. But the day's strip is always free, and thus many more people read the current strips - but that's often not enough to do a good article. Snowspinner 00:24, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

SCZenz, you are right -- not all comics that are part of a group are notable, even if the group itself is notable. There are always weaker members of any group. The least read comics on Modern Tales, Keenspot, etc. are not likely to be notable enough for an article in Wikipedia. Dragonfiend 02:33, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, but there's no other verifiable way to treat the syndicates than all-or-nothing, is there? Other than having the same devisive AfD debate over and over. -- SCZenz 02:37, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Think of the notable comics on the Modern Tales sites and why, other than their presence on Modern Tales, they are considered notable. The most notable of the Modern Tales artists have also been published in books, newspapers, reviewed in major newspapers and magazines, won awards, etc. The least notable are the ones that one can only say about them "They were on Graphic Smash for a few weeks." The latter are the ones not notable enough for Wikipedia. If a comic's only claim to fame is that it was the weakest member of a group, then that's not much, is it? Maybe I'm wrong. Can you think of any notable comics that the only measurement of their notability is that they are syndicated through Modern Tales or Keenspot or one of the other lesser known groups? Dragonfiend 02:55, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I still strongly disagree with this. Especially in the case of the Modern Tales group and Keenspot, the people who select these strips are making their living off of their ability to edit a good webcomics syndicate. They are professional editors who have made the decision that the webcomics that make up their site are either artistically or commercially notable. That is more than can, on the surface, be said about the most notable Comic Genesis strip. Snowspinner 02:47, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe we can compromise by requiring current membership, going back some amount of time (say, 6 months?) for the Modern Tales comics? -- SCZenz 03:51, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Snowspinner writes "in the case of the Modern Tales group and Keenspot, the people who select these strips are making their living off of their ability to edit a good webcomics syndicate." Even the best editors make mistakes. I will submit into evidence the Graphic Smash comic "Big Dicks Ball" which gives me 7 Google hits, only 5 of which are about the comic. It also has a message board, with one thread with one reply, on the topic of how nobody visits the message board. This comic, chosen by a "professional editor," is about as non-notable as you could find. Again, not all comics that are part of a group are notable, even if the group itself is notable. Dragonfiend 04:42, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

The operative problem with Big Dick's Ball seems to me not that it flopped, but that the strip no longer appears to exist anywhere on the Internet, making it totally unverifiable. It would thus be a permastub, best merged with Graphic Smash - but no, I wouldn't delete it, nor would I delete a statement about its existence and failure from Graphic Smash. Snowspinner 05:06, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

From what little I know, it would seem that the Modern Tales family is the only one of the currently-listed syndicates with failures and departures like this—we seem to have discussed a couple of examples now. Is there something different about their editorial policy? -- SCZenz 05:09, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Others have it - Keenspot lost a bunch of strips in the founding of Blank Label, and a few strips petered to a halt right after they got Spotted - Elf Only Inn springs to mind. Snowspinner 05:29, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Hmm... Perhaps we should add a requirement to the syndicate item that says the comic must have updated regularly on that syndicate for at least 3 months. This would take out a few obvious problems, and not get rid of anything good—at least not for very long. What do you think? -- SCZenz 05:33, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

A record company executive makes his living through their ability to sign "notable" bands. Only, not every band that is signed out there is notable. Yet, these webcomic editors, in their infinte wisdom, only manage to pick notable comics. It is not right to include all webcomics within a syndicate, just because their editors liked their style. What if a publisher takes on an author, it doesn't automatically make his books notable does it, and when no one bothers to read the book, it'll fail into obscurity. Yet, with webcomics, we seem to be saying, "Even if a webcomic gets next to zero regular readers, but is on a small comic syndicate, it is instantly notable". "Even when a syndicated comic fails, it is instantly notable." I understand that the webcomic community is relatively small compared to other industries, but I do not feel that we should be giving such large boundaries for inclusion. The consensus in the afd debate seems to veer on keeping Able and Baker, the only reason given, is that it is member of the Dayfree Press, a comic group created for the mutual promotion of webcomics, that is just wrong. - Hahnchen 18:01, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Not as wrong as more or less single-handedly driving off, by my count, at least three contributors. [3] Snowspinner 18:12, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Too strict?

These are simply too strict. There's a lot of articles that would get quite easily kept on AfD that do not fit these criteria. Ambi 00:40, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Not true. Even comics that meet it (e.g. for syndicate membership) are having trouble. What kind of changes do you propose? If it's little tweaks, that's fine, but I promise there'll never be consensus to keep comics without some sort of external verification of their notability. -- SCZenz 00:45, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

This would leave out a lot of comics that have a sizable readership and have been regularly updated for years. Where would Bruno fit under these? Or Venus Envy? Or Oh My Gods! (a comic popular in the pagan community which I've been meaning to write an article on for years)? Furthermore, we don't need consensus to keep an article. We need a consensus to delete it - and none of these are deserving candidates for that fate. Ambi 05:50, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Many disagree with you, in general terms, enough so that the consensus in AfD's doesn't seem to be going the way you predict. Bruno I would vote to keep since it's been running since 1996, regardless of what the guidelines said—and I wouldn't be opposed to putting a started-in-1996-or-earlier-and-still-running item in the guidelines either. Tell me... how would you define verifiable notability for webcomics? Or do you think Wikipedia should be a directory of websites? -- SCZenz 06:03, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Because it's clear that those are the only two options. Snowspinner 06:06, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Short of having a popularity contest, sockpuppetry, arguments over expertise, and other assorted silliness for AfD after AfD, yes. The guidelines I wrote out are already far more lenient than the accepted standards for any other kind of website. I'm trying compromise between the two camps, but it would seem I'm the only one who cares to. (Apologies on the off chance that the preceding remark wasn't sarcastic.)

Maybe I should put it this way. Which webcomics aren't notable, and how can we tell? Or should wikipedia be a directory of webcomics? (Because now those really are logically the only two options.) -- SCZenz 06:13, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

There's plenty of non-notable webcomics, and some of the other suggested criteria handled this much more effectively. This chooses the most restrictive interpretation, excluding comics which would otherwise comparatively easily survive AfD, and is thus doomed to fail. However, I think this is something that is really easier to judge on their merits, rather than trying to find some detailed standard. Ambi 06:49, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, there's the Alexa test... and then the standards that give comics credit just for existing for some length of time... which one do you think is better, and why? The former is contained within my proposed guidelines, and the latter could give crappy, unread comics an easy pass. As for your proposal, making editorial judgements based on merit is entirely inappropriate for an encyclopedia. -- SCZenz 06:55, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Alexa is unreliable (c.f. Bruno's low ranking and its systemic bias), and you've just outlined the problems with the alternative. And why on earth is making editorial judgements based on merit entirely appropriate, when we all do this every day? That's the most bizarre claim I've heard all year. Ambi 07:19, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Maybe I misunderstand what you mean by "merit." I thought you meant judging the quality of the comic itself... what did you mean? -- SCZenz 16:22, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Also, as discussed below, Alexa is a last resort. I'd rather see some other documentation; it shouldn't be first on the list, but it was requested above that I put it there and I didn't think it mattered. -- SCZenz 16:24, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Not totally related to the discussion. But I never nominated the Keenspace comic Venus Envy for deletion because it had coverage in the outside press, probably some gay or transexual online journal or magazine or something, can't remember what it was called. For me that makes it more notable than some comic which was mentioned on some blog or linked to from a more notable webcomic. - Hahnchen 18:08, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Proposal points

I've come to the party late, I know. How about listing some of the simpler points, and focusing discussion on them? Get what we agreeon out of the way, as it were. - brenneman^(t)(c) 07:28, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

1. Unusually large readership.

   Alexa is easy to fudge (see above). This should be a "last resort" for comics that fail all other hurdles. Do we agree on that? - brenneman^(t)(c) 07:28, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

   I concur. -- SCZenz 16:25, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

2. Coverage or inclusion outside the webcomics community.

   This one is good ,as it meets our general verifiability guidelines. - brenneman^(t)(c) 07:28, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

3. Notable author.

   No, if the comic's only claim is that it's author is notable, it should go under the author's main entry, like a book written by Ethan Hawke would. - brenneman^(t)(c) 07:28, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

   I disagree, at least if the new comic is almost notable, or will be soon if it continues. -- SCZenz 16:25, 25 October 2005 (UTC)