Talk:Islamic terrorism

Comment

This is a fairly objective and informative article. It is an important article, but should be reviewed by experts on terrorism. Islamic terrorism, like other forms of extremism, does not exist in a vacuum. This article could, if adequately contributed to, provide an understanding of why Islamic extremism exists, and it thus could provide a valuable resource for those interested in pursuing it further. —Preceding unsigned comment added by David matthews (talk • contribs) 23:22, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the article is objective and fair. The article is far from complete, however. For example the list of Islamic terrorist acts does not mention many acts of terrorism. I think that is because this is a fairly new article. Hopefully, the gaps will be filled in time. It is a useful and important article and should be kept. There should be companion articles also (e.g. Sikh terrorism) so that it does not appear unfair to Muslims. However, Muslims must understand that this is an article meant to provide information on Islamic terrorism and not to demean them in any way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.153.8 (talk) 22:49, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

"Islamist terrorism"

Some time ago, editors (not including me) agreed that this article was about "Islamic terrorism" not "Islamist terrorism". Hence they changed the name. Currently the lead treats Islamism as a synonym for Islam, something that is wildly inaccurate. Unless there is a source that treats both followers of Islam, and followers of Islamism the same when it comes to terrorism, this shouldn't be there. If there is such a source, please quote it.Bless sins (talk) 01:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

There is a lot of discussion on the title name in 2007, and with the exception of one C. Logan the consensus was for Islamist Terrorism. I'm going to change the name. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Boogaloogie, it seems that the discussion to which you are referring was started on the very day that an admin closed a discussion which led to moving the article to “Islamic terrorism”. Such a contentious change as moving the page to “Islamist terrorism”, without a formal move request and discussion, would be vandalism and reverted. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:21, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I won't change the name without discussion on it. --BoogaLouie (talk) 22:15, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The current title is unacceptable and I put POV tag on it on the basis of former discussions which you can find here, then here and here. Unfortunately there isn't any consensus over the title of the article and I think it's the worst title which could be chosen.--Seyyed(t-c) 03:48, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this article should be renamed to "Islamist terrorism," as that's what the article is about. Titling the page "Islamic" is inappropriate. --Aude (talk) 06:17, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

This may be a moot argument. Is the correct term not Islamisist? I know Islamist is in popular use but I feel that the former is more correct in English Opiumjones 23 (talk) 18:08, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

:I propose we re-name it to Jihadist not Islamic. There is no connection between the religion and also there is much confusion over the term. Lord of Moria _Talk ^Contribs 14:37, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I retract it. The name is fine because there is Christian terrorism and Jewish terrorism. You see even some us get confused over the term! Lord of Moria _Talk ^Contribs 14:40, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

An excellent source for arguing that terroism is mainstream Islamic practice is www.jihadwatch.org. Given that it quotes directly from the Qu'ran and uses Islamic doctrine to support the interpretations that favour terrorism, it seems remiss that it would be neglected on this topic. Starmaster80 (talk) 01:44, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

My inclination would be to keep it as "Islamic Terrorism". Islamism is specially the belief in an political system government by Islamic rules and values (roughly). One could easily have (and indeed frequently does) a terrorist act that is motivated by an interpretation of Islam, but not directly connected to the establishment of an Islamic political system. JEB90 (talk) 00:14, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Then let's keep this about Islamic terrorism, and not bring Islamist terrorism. Unless a source says Islamic terrorism = Islamist terrorism, I find it ridiculous that we would equate Islam (the root word of Islamic) with Islamism (the root word for Islamist).Bless sins (talk) 15:35, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. Of course, while Islam and Islamism are not the same thing, Islamic Terrorism is a subset of Islamic Terrorism to the extent that Islamism is informed by an understanding of Islam. So, Islamist Terrorism would be appropriately included here, although it would be incorrect to equate the two things completely. JEB90 (talk) 17:40, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a source that claims that "Islamic [I assume you mean Islamist] Terrorism is a subset of Islamic Terrorism"? I have a source that disavows the term "Islamic terrorism" to describe what it calls "Islamist terrorism".Bless sins (talk) 05:11, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I did mean "Islamist," sorry. There are any number of sources which deal with the relationship between Islamism and Islam. I don't have quotes and page numbers in front of me at the moment, but every serious scholar of the area from Bernard Lewis to Fazlur Rahman has deal with the relationship between the two (I'd recommend Peter Demant's "Islam vs. Islamism" book for a decent examination, which describes Islamism as "the politicization of religion" but concedes that Islamism is informed by Islam). My point though was largely semantic. I'm claiming that: if, "Islamism" is a politically system informed by an understanding of Islam. And "Islamist Terrorism" is terrorism informed by Islamism. And "Islamic Terrorism" is terrorism informed by an understanding Islam. Then, "Islamist Terrorism" is a form of "Islamic Terrorism." The idea that "terrorism is un-islamic" is an fair theological and political point, but inappropriate to an encyclopedia. If the terrorists say they're informed by Islam, we ought to take that at face value and include them as Islamic Terrorists. The problem here is that people seem to think that by describing Islamism as Islamic, we are equating Islam and Islamism... which would be stupid, but also not what I think it going on here. The key question here, I think, is: Is there any Islamic terrorism that is not Islamist? If no, then we should change the name. If yes, then Islamist terrorism is another subset of Islamic terrorism along with non-Islamist terrorism. JEB90 (talk) 15:59, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Musten (talk) 07:55, 19 December 2008 (UTC) There are two versions of Islam. One that is being propogated by terrorists and other which is being propogated by moderate/peaceful Muslims. Most non-Muslims hear and amplify and even justify the version propogated by terrorists. Moreover, they question the authenticity of the version propogated by moderate/peaceful muslims, thereby muting moderate voices.

The fact is, both versions are nothing but point of views. It is really upto non-Muslims to choose to believe the version they want to and amplify. If they amplify moderate/peaceful Muslim's version, that will become stronger.

Islam, like any other religion, preaches the same thing. It is no different than any other religion. It is just presented differently. The different presentation may be the effect of learning or the circumstances prevailing in those days when Islam came into existence. History does not always tell the truth. If you are following any religion, believe that Islam preaches the same thing which your religion preaches, just in a different way.

You can choose to amplify this voice and make it stronger or put forth your arguments to justify the version of the terrorists. That will determine how Islam or any other religion is perceived by masses.

I am sure we have all learnt in our childhood about "United we stand, divided we fall". Same thing goes for the problem of terrorism. If we combine all regional terrorism and bind them all with the string of religion, the problem will stand stronger. Once we divide the problem and isolate it, it dies its natural death.

Al-Qaeda has successfully combined regional issues and put a veneer of religion over it to strengther itself.

Within this context, rather than calling it Islamic terrorism, it will be prudent to call it Kashmiri militancy fuelled by Pakistan's separatists views or Palestine militancy or Taliban's militancy.

Kashmiri militants, like erstwhile Khalistanis are confined to India. They just happened to be Muslims. For this example, imagine if the Kashmiris were Christians and wanted Independent Kashmir, will it be prudent to call it Christian Terrorism?

Palestine militancy is confined to Palestine. They don't come and bomb Indian cities. Similarly, Talibans are confined to Afghanistan and Pakistan. They are fighting for their cause and beliefs in the same way as ULFA or LTTE is fighting for their cause and belief.

So, it will help solve problems of terrorism and security if we see them separate rather than combine them as Islamic terrorism.

Its just a matter of changing one's perception to solve problems and establish peace. Musten (talk) 07:55, 19 December 2008 (UTC) Musten (talk) 11:42, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Further more, I would like to add following as a reason for not terming this as a Islamic Terrorism Islam consists of many denominations. Major two sects are Sunni and Shia. Within these sects there are many more branches. One of the minor branch of Sunni muslims believe that Jihad is the "sixth pillar" of Islam (other five being Shahadah - belief that there is only one god and his messenger is Muhammed, Salah - five time prayers, Zakat - charity, Sawm - fasting during ramazan, Hajj - pilgrimage to Mecca). This Sunni minority sect is referred to as Wahhabi. Osama belongs to this Sunni sect.

Now, only one minority sect of Sunni Muslims believe in Jihad. Thus one can say that it is "Wahhabi Terrorism". This kind of terrorism is not only impacting non-Muslims, it is also impacting other sects of Islam as well. So, for instance, Shia muslims are target of these Wahhabis because they Shias believe in Ali. These Wahhabis want all sects of Islam to follow only their version of Islam.

By calling it Islamic Terrorism, we are implying that all sects of Islam are Wahhabis, which is not true. There are huge differences between each sects and school of thoughts.

By calling it Wahhabi Terrorism, the scope of terrorism is narrowed down to one sect of Islam. This allows us all to focus on containing Wahhabism which is radicalizing Islam and trying to set the current thought process back by 1400 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi

Musten (talk) 11:42, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus. JPG-GR (talk) 04:32, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I have requested this article be renamed. Wikipedia should not conflate the word "Islamic" with "Islamist." Sources using the term "Islamist" include the 9/11 Commission Report, which also describes what it means [1]. Lawrence Wright [2] and other experts also use the term. The Wikipedia article is about Islamist terrorism, and should be properly named as such. --Aude (talk) 06:45, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Survey

• Oppose. The common name for the topic is Islamic terrorism. Andrewa (talk) 11:30, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

• Where is that Andrew? -- fayssal - Wiki me up^® 11:50, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

• Throughout the English-speaking world. For example, 670,000 Google hits for Islamic terrorism vs 185,000 for Islamist terrorism (your results may differ according to your connection and/or locality). Andrewa (talk) 12:53, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

• And when most Americans use the term kleenex they simply mean tissue paper but that doesn't mean that all tissue paper is in fact kleenex. Then there is the fisher cat which is in fact not a cat at all but a marten. Of course it's good friend the dolphin fish isn't a dolphin either. The google argument is entirely lacking. If we agree that the most accurate term is "Islamist terrorism" but that the much more generic "Islamic terrorism" has become more popular then the appropriate way to deal with it is renaming to Islamist terrorism, redirecting "Islamic terrorism" to this page and writing a first sentence of the lead similar to the one on Mahimahi which would instead of saying that it is commonly called the dolphin fish say that Islamist terrorism is commonly referred to as Islamic terrorism. If there is an accuracy issue we shouldn't look to the mistakes of colloquial speech as our guide.PelleSmith (talk) 13:43, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

• That's logical, but no change of vote at this stage, see below for why. Andrewa (talk) 20:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

• Support Islamist terrorism is more neutral. --Seyyed(t-c) 15:40, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
• Support for same reasons as pelleshmith and seyyed. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:19, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
• Support per myself and all those who want to move.PelleSmith (talk) 17:19, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
• Support. Although I usually agree with Andrewa, I concur that the article discusses a precise topic which can be referred to as "Islamist" (as supported by sources), not a more general topic that may have a different common name. Interesting argument.Dekimasuよ! 04:54, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Cont'd: The American Heritage Dictionary describes Islamism as "An Islamic revivalist movement, often characterized by moral conservatism, literalism, and the attempt to implement Islamic values in all spheres of life." This appears to fulfill the requirements for specificity set forth by Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision). Dekimasuよ! 05:33, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
• Support - it's a much more sensible alternative to "Islamic terrorism", which may be viewed as a misnomer. As I've said before, even better IMO would be 'Muslim terrorism' so as to conform with Jewish terrorism and Christian terrorism. ITAQALLAH 11:21, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
• Support As per Itaqallah Lord of Moria _Talk ^Contribs 14:42, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose I fail to see a compelling reason to move the article. Per Andrew, this is the most common name. Carl.bunderson (talk) 20:43, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

• Comment You may of course do as you will, but I'd like to note that you seem to have changed your mind from earlier when you wrote: "I will support the move request on the condition that no-one can reasonably argue with your assertion that 'The Wikipedia article is about Islamist terrorism'". Andrewa has in fact admitted that this entry is more precisely specifically about "Islamist terrorism", but objects because apparently Islamist terrorism is more commonly called Islamic terrorism. Where is the reasonable argument against the assertion that this is about Islamist terrorism? Where is the "one instance of Islamic-but-not-Islamist terrorism ... on this page"?PelleSmith (talk) 21:02, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
  • I missed that; would you mind copy-pasting Andrew's entire thread where he admitted the article is more precisely about Islamist terrorism? Thank you. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Perhaps I read what he wrote too liberally. Perhaps he wasn't actually endorsing the idea of specificity as a fact. Either way Andrewa's argument is not substantive - in that he has not argued substantively that the entry is not about Islamist terrorism but about something conceptually broader. He has simply claimed that Islamic terrorism is the most common term to describe the entry's contents. In other words he has provided no instance of "Islamic but not Islamist" terrorism. No one has. Again, you are welcome to do as you please, but the criteria you asked for was not filled.PelleSmith (talk) 21:48, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose. See Christian terrorism (which is shockingly detailed...) and Jewish terrorism. Where's Buddhist terrorism and Hindu terrorism? Surely we can scrounge up something? (N.B. that was not a suggestion.) Srnec (talk) 04:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. As per policy, the name should be left as Islamic terrorism. 'Muslim terrorism' is not the best choice, because it may refer to terrorism committed by Muslims, but not in the name of Islam. 'Islamist terrorism' is not the best choice, because it is possible that terrorism may be committed in the name of Islam but not for Islamist goals. 'Islamic terrorism' is the term in common usage and appropriately defines the subject.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

• No example has been given in this discussion of any terrorism that is Islamic but not Islamist, so I continue to fail to understand the logic of that argument.PelleSmith (talk) 01:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevant. All Islamist terrorism is inherently Islamic terrorism, and "Islamic terrorism" is the term in common usage which is the determinant for naming articles as per Wikipedia policy.--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:49, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

From the survey above:

And when most Americans use the term kleenex they simply mean tissue paper but that doesn't mean that all tissue paper is in fact kleenex. Then there is the fisher cat which is in fact not a cat at all but a marten. Of course it's good friend the dolphin fish isn't a dolphin either. The google argument is entirely lacking. If we agree that the most accurate term is "Islamist terrorism" but that the much more generic "Islamic terrorism" has become more popular then the appropriate way to deal with it is renaming to Islamist terrorism, redirecting "Islamic terrorism" to this page and writing a first sentence of the lead similar to the one on Mahimahi which would instead of saying that it is commonly called the dolphin fish say that Islamist terrorism is commonly referred to as Islamic terrorism. If there is an accuracy issue we shouldn't look to the mistakes of colloquial speech as our guide.PelleSmith (talk) 13:43, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

This can be justified in terms of policy if we see it as following WP:IAR rather than WP:NC. But is the proposal really an improvement? I'm unconvinced. In preferring that the title be specific (they're both accurate) as opposed to generic, what we're doing is to put some content - the information that all Islamic terrorists are Islamist terrorists - into the page title. This is part of a campaign to promote the use of the more specific term.

And this campaign has merit. But it's a big policy shift if we support it in this way. What I'd prefer is to have a redirect from Islamist terrorist, and a clear article lead that points out that the Islamic terrorism as described in the article stems from a particular faction, rather than from all of Islam.

Another possibility would be to have two articles, one at Islamic terrorism and the main one at Islamist terrorism. This is for example what is done in tree of life articles when a genus is represented by only one species. I think in this instance that this is not the right way to go, I just mention it because several of the generic vs specific examples given above seem to suggest it as a solution.

Disagree that the google argument is entirely lacking. Google is not God, certainly, but it's relevant. Andrewa (talk) 20:18, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

From the Oxford English Dictionary - Accuracy - "The state of being accurate; precision or exactness resulting from care; hence, precision, nicety, exactness, correctness." Accurate - "Of things and persons: Exact, precise, correct, as the result of care." The claim is exactly that the phrase "Islamic terrorism" lacks precision and that the name change would be a careful employment of precision. "Islamic terrorism" accurately reflects the imprecise colloquial usage, yes congratulations, but no one is disagreeing with this so your correction above is superfluous. Also please note that the second rule of WP:NC is - Be precise when necessary. This is not a new discussion on this page and the claim supporting the move has always been inline with this rule. In other words this is not simply an issue of WP:IAR.PelleSmith (talk) 13:24, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

This OED entry is listing alternative meanings. Both Islamic and Islamist are accurate in this context. Colloquial usage is what WP:NC specifies we should use (first rule), so if no one is disagreeing with this then there should be no support for the move in terms of this policy. We could still plead IAR. Disagree it is in any way imprecise in terms of WP:NC, rather I think that it is well known and accepted that Islamic terrorism usually refers to the current Islamist campaign. Agree that the question of whether this extra precision is necessary is relevant (second rule), and I see no reason to regard it as necessary.

Agree that this is not a new proposal. If this move fails, we should consider it as a candidate for Wikipedia:Perennial proposals. Andrewa (talk) 17:18, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

The OED is defining the term accuracy ... not "offering alternative meanings". Notable criticisms of the term "Islamic terrorism" (e.g. the main one mentioned in this entry) focus on the fact that the term is imprecise. Islamic terrorism suggests various possible connections between the religion Islam and terrorism outside of those related to Islamism while in reality the form of terrorism described in this entry and practiced by those being called "Islamic terrorists" is specifically of an Islamist nature. This makes some of us suggest we have an accuracy problem. The logic of your argument would suggest other accurate alternatives as well like Human terrorism, Violent terrorism and/or Terrorist terrorism. Precision lies at the heart of accuracy, whether you are willing to agree with the OED notwithstanding. So the answer to the policy basis of the move is simply that you don't agree that precision is necessary in this circumstance? The contentious nature of this term makes precision extremely necessary and I'd like to know on what grounds that perspective is incorrect. In terms of this stubborn adherence to the first rule of WP:NC despite the second, I will point out that a Google search is not a reliable measure of the "common usage" of English terms, particularly in regards to terms that describe phenomena which usually surface in the various discourses of specific interest groups, themselves not representative of mass culture. Now I clearly happen to think that this is immaterial given that precision should trump common usage in this instance regardless, but that doesn't change the fact that the Google argument establishes a very shaky foundation.PelleSmith (talk) 18:36, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for removing some of the personal attacks from the above. But it contains several more, and also a number of straw man arguments, which I don't think require an answer.

Yes, the OED is defining the term accuracy, but in doing this it is also offering alternative meanings. Both. That's the way the OED works.

Agree that Google is not proof of anything, but it is the only evidence yet presented of common usage. Very interested in any better evidence you can find.

I appreciate that you think that precision should trump common usage..., but I'm unsure of why you think this, as you've previously rejected an appeal to IAR. But thanks for some challenging arguments. And so far in the survey, they seem to be attracting more support than mine are! Andrewa (talk) 00:07, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I have not nor will I present evidence to the contrary because as I stated I don't think colloquial usage should dictate the name in an instance where "precision is necessary". I have also explained why I believe it is necessary but you have not explained why it isn't. I'm still waiting. As to personal attacks without pointing them out to me I cannot know what you are referring to as I honestly and innocently don't see any. Thanks.PelleSmith (talk) 04:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, I obviously can't force you to present evidence, but at the risk of argument from silence we need to act on the evidence we have, and it indicates that the common usage is the current title. So we're left with your opinion that it's vitally important to adopt a particular level of precision in the article title, versus a very clear official policy which says we should prefer the common name.

Stubborn is an example of a personal attack. Strongly suggest you read the relevant policy. Andrewa (talk) 14:14, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

"Stubborn adherence" ... pretty nit-picky and dubiously an "attack" of any kind, but if you take offense to anything I've written then I'm happy to apologize - I am sorry. In regards to your presentation of the situation, I'm afraid it is not accurate to claim that your position is solidly in policy while ours is not. WP:NC first states that the default standard is to go with common usage and follows immediately with the second rule which I have very clearly quoted already - be precise when necessary. My issue with your Google search is that it does not even establish common usage in a reliable way, but my point about not presenting evidence to the contrary regards the fact that I don't think common usage is the issue here. The default does not work when it is necessary to be precise. WP:NC does not have one strict guideline to always use "common usage", and in this situation I and others have provided reasons why precision is necessary and why the term you claim is most common is not precise. Do you have any argument countering this? Why is precision not necessary? Because if it is the rest of us are fully within policy. Cheers.PelleSmith (talk) 15:02, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

<--- Resetting indentation

Please read the policy on personal attacks to which I have linked above. It doesn't say what you're assuming. All I'm saying is that you are violating this policy.

So far as evidence is concerned, I think you have a choice... produce evidence or concede the point. If you regard the point as irrelevant anyway, then why not concede it? Then we can move on. Merely to criticise evidence that has been produced as weak while refusing to produce any better evidence is a waste of everyone's time.

I think that I have already answered this particular argument. Restating it seems another waste of time. The purpose of this discussion is to help the closing sysop to decide on a course of action in response to the move request; Anything that doesn't serve that purpose doesn't belong here. Andrewa (talk) 00:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Your accusation, your burden of proof. I've looked at the policy (in the past as well as right now) and see nothing that says that calling someone's adherence to something "stubborn" is a personal attack. If you insist then please quote the appropriate language from the policy. On the other hand I apologized regardless so I fail to understand why a problem persists.

The policy is summarised Comment on content, not on the contributor. I certainly won't be invoking WP:DR over such a small breach, but I thought you should be reminded of the policy, particularly in view of the many other breaches most of which you quickly removed (thank you). Andrewa (talk) 04:07, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no evidence that suggests "Islamic terrorism" is not the common usage and I never claimed emphatically that it wasn't, I simply suggested that the Google method has several problems, especially in relation to terms like this which are blogged about by very specific interests groups that are not representative of the English speaking population and therefore skew the results rather heavily. Please stop asking for evidence that does not exist and that no one has claimed exists. If you have already "answered" the argument as you claim then please, do me the favor of restating your answer, or linking to it since I clearly cannot see it. Call me stupid, I don't care, but if I earnestly see no answer the nice thing to do is to repeat it. I'll repeat the question - Why is precision not necessary? Thanks kindly.PelleSmith (talk) 03:07, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

In case the rationale for precision is not clear I'll quote from 1) the entry itself and 2) from myself (but there are several more examples of this argument throughout this talk page history):

• This argument is countered by Jamal Nassar and Karim H. Karim, who contend that, because there are over a billion adherents of the religion, the phenomenon is more precisely regarded as "Islamist terrorism"[1] or "militant Islamism",[9] because Islamism describes political ideologies rooted in interpretations of Islam.[1] In this vein, describing terrorism as "Islamic" may confirm "a prejudicial perspective of all things Islamic".
• Islamic terrorism suggests various possible connections between the religion Islam and terrorism outside of those related to Islamism while in reality the form of terrorism described in this entry and practiced by those being called "Islamic terrorists" is specifically of an Islamist nature. This makes some of us suggest we have an accuracy problem.

So we are suggesting that precision is necessary because this is a contentious topic which requires sensitivity and clarity so as not to conflate Islamism with Islam, so as not to suggest some generically "Islamic" quality of this extremist militancy. So that is why some of us (myself at the very least) claim that precision is necessary. Why is precision not necessary?PelleSmith (talk) 03:43, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Understood. The question seems to be, should these considerations outweigh the fundamental policy of preferring common usage in article titles? In view of the sensitive nature of the topic, I think it's even more important to adhere closely to the rules in this particular case. I fear that, should the move take place, the new title won't last long. But I could be wrong. Andrewa (talk) 04:07, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

"Islamic terrorism" overrides and denies completely the fact that "Islamist terrorism" affects Muslims as well when Muslims themselves get targeted by islamist terrorism. The justification the violent Islamists use defines , accurately, their concept. Please note that I am not talking about sectarian violence but terrorist acts perpetrated against people of Muslim confession.

This OED entry is listing alternative meanings. Then why do we have to insist on the least grounded and most contentious one here? The point is... Islam and Islamism are not inherently alternative. -- fayssal - wiki up^® 01:13, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Your point escapes me. The definitions to which I was referring are of accuracy and accurate. They were quoted above by PelleSmith. Andrewa (talk) 14:14, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes that may be true but his first point shouldn't escape you and directly relates to our disagreement as it is another example of the inaccuracy of the present title.PelleSmith (talk) 15:02, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Again, I think this has already been answered. Andrewa (talk) 00:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Aude, are we quite sure that nothing on this page is Islamic terrorism but not Islamist terrorism? I will support the move request on the condition that no-one can reasonably argue with your assertion that "The Wikipedia article is about Islamist terrorism". If even one instance of Islamic-but-not-Islamist terrorism is on this page, it should not be moved. Carl.bunderson (talk) 02:43, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

That's a good question, and there's a wider one. In view of the wide range of beliefs reflected in the various branches of Christian terrorism, and the well-documented divisions within Islam, it's a bit surprising if Islamic terrorists are so uniform in their beliefs. This sort of speculation doesn't belong in the article of course, that would be WP:OR, but it might show us where to look for other forms of Islamic terrorism, to round out the article, or otherwise help us to confirm that all Islamic terrorism is Islamist, if indeed this is the case. Andrewa (talk) 04:21, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I personally prefer opting for "Muslim terrorism", as then the article topic correctly focuses on terrorism committed by Muslims (where their being Muslim is verifiably relevant) without any implied judgement (as with "Islamic") or the potential for too narrow a scope (as with "Islamist"). This also brings it in line with the articles on Jewish terrorism (which does not have the title "Judaic terrorism") and Christian terrorism. Thoughts? ITAQALLAH 11:31, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Good suggestion, and one that raises several issues. I'm uncertain as to how Islamic terrorism and Muslim terrorism differ in meaning. Andrewa (talk) 13:36, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Islamic is an adjective. The title "Islamic terrorism" connotes terrorism which is "Islamic", i.e. in conformity with Islam's rules and regulations... in the same way you'd say Islamic finance or Islamic etiquette for instance. That implication is obviously inappropriate here as it contains a judgement about Islam and terrorism. It's not, however, the intended meaning of what is covered in the article, which is terrorism committed by Muslims - the accurate title for which IMO is Muslim terrorism. ITAQALLAH 13:51, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmmmm... this seems to be based on linguistic prescription, ie trying to tell people how they should speak, rather than just accepting the way they do speak. Wikipedia:naming conventions tend to reject this general approach as a form of advocacy, ie we don't try to reshape language to conform to a set of rules. We don't necessarily object to people trying to clean up English usage, but Wikipedia is not the place to do it. Andrewa (talk) 15:44, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

And I think this is getting very much to the heart of the matter. Yes, we want very much to avoid the implications to which you refer. But when the person in the street refers to Islamic terrorism, they are not necessarily making any such judgement.

So, the article naming policy has been designed to avoid them too, by explicitly stating that our article names reflect English usage, nothing more. If we violate this principle, and instead try to take account of the logic that you're suggesting (which the English speaker doesn't normally use when choosing their words) we then inject an implication that we've considered these arguments into every other article name. And it's very important not to do that.

That's getting a bit involved I know, but I think it's what is going on here. Andrewa (talk) 15:53, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Regarding your first question, my answer was in response to you enquiring the difference in meaning between Muslim terrorism and Islamic terrorism; because there is a difference. Secondly, your argument is based on the premise that the term Islamic terrorism is an accepted and uncontested part of the English language (as opposed to a mere conjunction of two words). That's really not the case as evident from the article (even the first citation) itself as well as plenty of other reliable sources available (to list a few: [3][4][5]) which does suggest a degree of debate even within mainstream discourse. Thus, I feel this appeal to "the person on the street" is not quite convincing. ITAQALLAH 17:08, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

You've given a difference in grammar, but so far none in meaning.

No, it's not based on any such premise. Obviously it's not uncontested, there would be no discussion here if that were so. And there's a great variety in usage within the language, just as obviously. WP:NC reads in part Article naming should be easily recognizable by English speakers. All I'm claiming is that English speakers easily recognise the current article name. Andrewa (talk) 17:53, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Is it being argued that the article name I'm suggesting, Muslim terrorism, is not easily recognisable as to what will be covered in the article? ITAQALLAH 17:04, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. It means the same thing as the current title, but many English speakers would wonder, what point is being made by using this unusual phrasing? Andrewa (talk) 22:49, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I disagree there. I don't believe people would say "Why is the title Muslim terrorism? My google search tells me other names are more popular." I don't think that most people would even have a second thought about it were the title 'Muslim terrorism.' ITAQALLAH 18:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Whether or not people would think about it is immaterial. "Muslim terrorism" is not the most common name in English for the subject, and it has not argument for specificity, as does "Islamist terrorism". Carl.bunderson (talk) 05:27, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

ItaqAllah, I don't understand how "Muslim terrorism" lacks any implied judgement than "Islamic terrorism" may have. Were I Muslim, I could imagine taking some degree of offence at either one. Moreover, in the last source you provided above, one of the quoted writers shares my sentiment: "When they call it Islamic or Muslim terrorism I feel like I am being blamed..." Carl.bunderson (talk) 19:42, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Muslim terrorism implies nothing about whether the act is sanctioned by Islam or not, the same for which cannot be said about Islamic terrorism which does carry such implications, even if inadvertently. ITAQALLAH 17:03, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I think this is a key point, and relevant to the whole discussion not just to the suggestion of Muslim terrorism as a potential article name. Does the phrasing Islamic terrorism really carry such implications when we use it as the title of an encyclopedia article? It doesn't for me, and I'm doubtful that it does for many English speakers, any more than using the phrase Christian terrorism carries any implication that the principles of Christianity in any way endorse terrorism. Certainly some would try to claim that the actions of Christian terrorists discredit Christianity generally, and they use this phrase to support this claim, but this is a propaganda technique, and we should avoid following their lead. Andrewa (talk) 15:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Well it does to critics cited in the entry who make this claim specifically. What reliable and/or expert commentary on the matter are you citing here? It also certainly does to the conservative anti-Muslim blogsphere that isn't satisfied with railing against Islamism but constantly makes the equation of Islamic extremism with the essential nature of Islam. Itaqallah's point is one that seems to continue to escape your answers as well. His argument is that the Christian, in Christian terrorism, does not refer to essential aspects of the religion but to the self-identifications of terrorists. If that is true then Muslim is a much more analogous term than "Islamic".PelleSmith (talk) 20:32, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Andrewa, I think the comparison with Christian terrorism isn't quite valid. The reason being there aren't seperate adjectives when denoting the institution of Christendom and its followers. A more pertinent analogy is with Jewish terrorism. Which is not referred to as Judaic terrorism, even if it may have been carried out in the name of Judaism. ITAQALLAH 18:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Itaqallah his basis for argument seems wholeheartedly valid. Lord of Moria _Talk ^Contribs 14:45, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Islamic terrorism is the more accurate term based on the content of the article. Islamist terrorism is more specific, dealing with terrorism committed in the name of Islamism, which involves political motivations. Though such motivations are a major element of Islamic terrorism, it is still a subset. The sensitive issue at the crux of the naming dispute seems to be that some imagine that Islamic terrorism implies some inherent endorsement of terrorism within Islamic belief. However, just as the term teen suicide does not define an inherent characteristic of 'teenagers', neither does the term Islamic terrorism define 'Islam'.--Jeffro77 (talk) 23:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The ideology section of the article, for example, is talking specifically about Islamism. The groups listed on this page are using terrorist tactics for political goals (often cast in name of Islam), and many of the organizations have roots or connections with the Muslim Brotherhood. The only other possibly solution besides renaming the page would be to take all Islamist terrorism material out and put into a separate article, but than not much or anything would be left of this article. As for citing the "Christian terrorism" article, perhaps it should be renamed more precisely as well, since such tactics are only utilized by extreme elements. The adjective "Islamic" should not be used here, and instead the more precise term "Islamist" should be used. --Aude (talk) 23:57, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect. The first part under 'Ideology' indicates the views of Dale C. Eikmeier regarding 'Islamic terrorism' both in the paragraph, and the title of his referenced work. Islamist terrorism is a subset of Islamic terrorism, so there is no problem with this article containing information about Islamist terrorism. If all of the Islamist terrorism informatioin were removed from the article, most of the article, but not all, would be gone, and would therefore likely result in a later merge of the two articles anyway. Use of the term Islamic is appropriate in this article. See the last sentence of my previous comment above.--Jeffro77 (talk) 00:31, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Checking the source, Eikmeier is actually specifically stating the tenets of Qutbism, which is a "radical strain of Islamist ideology" (according to our Wikipedia article) and "Qutbism is structured on a common foundation of puritan Islamist orientations" (according to Eikmeier). --Aude (talk) 01:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

It makes no difference to the appropriate title of the article. All Islamist terrorism is Islamic terrorism even if no Islamic terrorism is not Islamist terrorism. If any number of Islamic terrorism events, including 0, are not Islamist terrorism, then Islamic terrorism is the correct title, because they are done in the name of Islam. The fact that such actions are repudiated by 'true Islam' does not change the intent of the purpetrators.--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:24, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

You are so right. Lets just rename the entry Terrorist terrorism or maybe Human terrorism. Or better yet lets just call it Terrorism, oh wait that's already and entry and its distinct from Islamist terrorism because not all terrorism is Islamist terrorism even though all Islamist terrorism is in fact terrorism. Get the point?PelleSmith (talk) 03:23, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Your allusion ignores scope by orders of magnitude. I appreciate the use of hyperbole, but its application does not apply.--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:47, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Islamic is an adjective which means something in conformity with Islam. Islamic finance refers to economic transactions which conform to Islamic rules and guidelines. Islamic jurisprudence refers to legal theory in compliance with Islamic principles. Islamic etiquette refers to personal conduct in conformity with Islamic prescriptions. (Conversely, calling something unIslamic denotes that it violates Islamic rules/guidelines). Thus there is an intimate connection between something "Islam-ic" and Islam. On that basis, the title carries an inappropriate judgement about the topic (what is "Islamic" is often a matter of opinion). 'Muslim terrorism' clearly and unequivocally refers to Muslims who conduct terrorism in the name of religion, without any subtextual judgement. ITAQALLAH 18:40, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

"Islamic" does not mean "something in conformity with Islam". The OED gives "Of or pertaining to Islam; Muhammadan, Muslim." This has no value judgement attached to it about whether or not the subject is in conformity with Islam. "Islamic" can be used to describe anything that has anything to do with Islam. Carl.bunderson (talk) 05:27, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

The OED's entry may well be correct, but the scope encompasses more than that. Not to say the OED is wrong, but consider Wiktionary's entry: "Of, pertaining to, originating in, characteristic of, or deriving from Islam." That's because 'Islamic' can function as both a proper adjective (i.e. as with Japanese) and a common adjective (i.e. 'His behaviour was Islamic'). ITAQALLAH 19:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

The Wiktionary entry is essentially the same as the OED's; there is still nothing indicating in conformity with Islam. Carl.bunderson (talk) 23:59, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that's splitting hairs. "Terrorism originating from Islam", "Terrorism characteristic of Islam", "Terrorism derived from Islam" all are a terribly far cry from "Terrorism pertaining to Islam", and all contain an inherent presumption or judgement about a positive relationship between Islam and terrorism. ITAQALLAH 16:04, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Splitting hairs

This thread reminds me what I have read in an interview. Remember Tony Blair's TV statement that the 9/11 attackers were not "Islamic terrorists" but "terrorists plain and simple"? This politically correct (PC) statement is as grotesque as, let's imagine, Roosvelt declaring after Pearl Harbor that the attackers were not "Japanese airmen" but "airmen" plain and simple. The BS in today's PC Zeitgeist is beyond me (take note that I'm talking about academic folly, not of the editors of this article). But don't worry. I don't plan to edit this article or to post in this talk page anymore. —Cesar Tort 19:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion but I think the point being made here by Blair, many Muslims, and other allegedly PC followers is that to call the terrorism Islamic terrorism (as opposed to Islamist terrorism) implies the perps were following Islam, i.e. were doing something Islamically correct. ... and its rather important to make clear this is strongly disputed. It's what the perps believe. It's not what a great many Muslims believe.

The same can't be said about Japanese airmen attacking Pearl Harbor. --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

This statement is flawed. The stated implication ignores the meaning of the words. As was correctly indicated previously, "Islamic" means 'pertaining to Islam', not 'approved by Islam'. If someone talks about 'German criminals', it doesn't mean that Germany endorses crime. 'Muslim terrorism' is not the best choice, because it may refer to terrorism committed by Muslims, but not in the name of Islam. 'Islamist terrorism' is not the best choice, because it is possible that terrorism may be committed in the name of Islam but not for Islamist goals. The only reason for not using 'Islamic' is because some people falsely assume that the word suggests some Islamic endorsement of terrorism.--Jeffro77 (talk) 09:39, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Not one example of "Islamic terrorism" that is not Islamist has been offered here. We've seen this argument again and again without a shred of validation from actual evidence. The reason not to use Islamic is because it isn't precise enough and may imply connections between Islam and terrorism that do not reflect the reality of the situation. You're argument makes no sense if there is in fact no example of "Islamic but not Islamist" terrorism. Regards.PelleSmith (talk) 00:39, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi PS. Curious to see you here. Please watch this video about basic grammar on this very subject. —Cesar Tort 04:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Cesar, my (unfavorable) views on Robert Spencer notwithstanding he is in fact not correct in his basic grammar lesson. When one refers to an Italian fascist one refers to an Italian who is in fact a fascist. If his linguistic analogy were to the point he would not say "Islamic", since that word does not describe someone who belongs to the religious group, but he would instead refer to "a Muslim" ... who is a terrorist. Italian fascist should translate to Muslim terrorist, not Islamic terrorist. This in fact is Itaqallah's very point. He seems to understand English grammar a bit better than Robert Spencer does. Regards.PelleSmith (talk) 04:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I also note that in this video Spencer proceeds to make a much more nebulous link between "Islam" and terrorism, but simply blames Muslims for making this link themselves. Of course Islamist terrorists believe they are acting for the good of Islam, but we're not here to validate their minority POV, we're here to accurately describe a phenomenon for what it is.PelleSmith (talk) 05:06, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The commonsensical use of language makes me use expressions such as "Christian terrorism" (e.g., what the Christians did to Hypatia of Alexandria) or "Jewish terrorism" (e.g., what the Hebrews did as recounted in the Book of Joshua). Why on Earth we have no right to use a similar expression regarding Islamic terrorism? It just strikes me as splitting hairs in the best case or Newspeak in the worst. —Cesar Tort 06:34, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Cesar, you have every right to call it what you wish. The question is what is most informative as an entry title here on Wikipedia. My suggestion is "Islamist terrorism", which is slightly less common in usage (according to a google search), but is more accurate. Part of the suggestion would include redirecting the current title to that page and making it clear in the lead that it is also referred to as "Islamic terrorism". In terms of your comparison "Jewish", and "Christian" may refer to the adherents (or simply people) and/or to the religion. With Islam the situation is different because "Muslim" more properly refers to the adherent. This means that when you label something "Islamic", its not quite the same as labeling it "Jewish", or "Christian". In fact plug Jewish into the Wikipedia search and you get redirected to Jew and not to Judaism. (Christian, of course needs no redirect because it is a noun already simply meaning an adherent to Christianity). But, plug Islamic into the search engine and you get redirected to Islam and not to Muslim. I think these redirects are absolutely correct, and are also a very keen example of exactly what Itaqallah is talking about.PelleSmith (talk) 19:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I'll leave this semantic discussion to the concerned parties. "Islamic" vs. "Islamist" was not my point, but the perils of Newspeak in many politically correct statements about Islam in our age. —Cesar Tort 20:28, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Lead sourcing issue

The first sentence of the lead is dubiously sourced. We clearly imply that this phenomena is accurately called "Islamic terrorism" but then source this to a source that argues the exact opposite. If the move happens, as suggested above, this will not be an issue, but if it doesn't a new source is required. I suspect the original source was added at some point when this entry was not named "Islamic terrorism" at all.PelleSmith (talk) 13:31, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

What does the source argue?Bless sins (talk) 16:39, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Takfir

The article states that "threats against Muslims are often issued as takfir (a declaration that a person, group or institution that describes itself as Muslim has in fact left Islam and thus is a traitor)," and includes mention of a few terrorist groups that have issued takfir. Given that Islamic terrorist groups demonstrate that they have "in fact left Islam" in the view of mainstream Muslims, have declarations of takfir been issued by mainstream Islam against those groups?--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:53, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Issuing takfir is actually a hallmark of extremists. Mainstream Muslims generally avoid such sentsitive topics, instead considering as Muslim all those who claim to be (with certain exceptions).Bless sins (talk) 16:42, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Jihadic terrorism

Jihadic terrorism is also used (20,000 results in Yahoo) and more right that "islamic" terrorism (not all the islamic people is terrorist; more, some are peacefull). Al Qaeda is Jihadic terrorism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.159.136.215 (talk • contribs)

The term "islamic terrorism" is offensive for the honest muslims.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.145.201.52 (talk • contribs)

Jihad, Islamic, Islamist, Muslims murdering non-Muslims, regardless of interpretation they all stem from the same religion, Islam. Changing the name from Islamic to Islamist isn't going to alter anyone's view of who is actually perpetrating these acts be them good Muslims according to the Quar'an or bad Muslims according to the Quar'an. Causeofthejust (talk) 14:49, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

More information needed on "Army of the Righteous," please

This appears to be the self-ascribed moniker being used by the assailants in the late November, 2008 incidents in Mumbai, India. The relationship of these individuals to the Islamic terrorism entry may be helpful. 75.37.225.244 (talk) 12:36, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Islam or Islamism

Is this article about Islamic terrorism or Islamist terrorism. The reason being that the word "Islamic" refers to Islam, and "Islamist" refers to Islamism. The two are very obviously not the same.

Also, no one has been able to provide reliable sources that explicitly equate the two. So until then, this article will have to decide which terrorism is being referred to here.

If such a source can't be provided, one solution would be to rename the article "Islamic and Islamist terrorism".Bless sins (talk) 19:47, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

One of the sources, in fact, argues against calling "Islamist terrorism" as "Islamic terrorism":

This chapter is titled Islamist terrorism rather than Islamic terrorism for a good reason. Islami is a religion with more than a billion adherents. It would be inappropriate to label the whole religion for the actions of a few.

Source: Nassar, Jamal R. Globalization and Terrorism: The Migration of Dreams and Nightmares. 2005, page 87.

The author of the source is Jamal Nassar, who is retired chair and professor in the Department of Political Science at Illinois State University. The book has also received positive reviews from scholars. Hence I take it to be a reliable source.Bless sins (talk) 15:46, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

And it seems strange to assert that this isn't an article about Islamist terrorism and then lead off with detail about the 9_11 events, which were perpetrated by members of Al-Qaida, an Islamist organisation. -- ZScarpia (talk) 18:01, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I think too that we should not talk about Islamic terrorism because there is nothing in Islam that [unanimously] refers to the use of violence with the goal of promoting Islamic or political values while at the other side, islamism has political goals.

On the other end, I think you will not reach any consensus if you don't fuse this discussion with the ones about Jewish terrorism and Christian terrorism.

One suggestion, among many others, would be the wordings : political violence performed in the name of [x] where we can replace [x] by Islam, Judaism, Christianism, or...

That would respect the point of view of those who believes in the values of [x] but rejects the use of violence or terrorism.

Ceedjee (talk) 14:35, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Hello Ceedjee. You know, I have the feeling that people have taken this Religious Terrorism thing too far? Looking at the Religious Terrorism article, it seems to be about a concept that two main people, Mark Juergensmeyer, whose specialism is the connection between religion and violence I think, and Bruce Hoffman, whose specialism is terrorism, write about. Unfortunately, they seem to have different definitions, or views, of what Religious Terrorism is. For, Mark Juergensmeyer, religious terrorism consists of acts which terrify whose perpetrators have a religious motivation, justification, organization, or world view. In his view, the violence that occurred during the The Troubles in Northern Ireland was religious terrorism. For Bruce Hoffman, to be considered religious terrorism, the perpetrators must use religious scriptures to justify or explain their violent acts or to gain recruits and there must be some sort of clerical figures involved in some leadership roles. His view is that the violence that occurred in Northern Ireland was not religious terrorism. I think that the disagreement between the two, though it may be due to a misunderstanding of the situation that existed in Northern Ireland by Juergensmeyer, possibly indicates that there is a conceptual problem. The talkpage of the Christian terrorism article indicates another problem. The source given for the definition of Christian terrorism actually makes no specific reference to Christian terrorism. I suspect that this indicates a lack of literature out there talking about 'Christian terrorism' as a form of religious terrorism. What has probably happened then is that editors have added in details of groups which they think fit the definition (actually, in some of the cases, I don't think they bothered too much about the formal definition given), but which have not been described anywhere else as 'Christian terrorism'. Perhaps that might be called original research? I've had a scan through the articles on Jewish and Islamic terrorism and think that the same kind of process has gone on there. A bad sign I think is that, in the Islamic terrorism article, no source is given for the definition of what Islamic terrorism is. In the Lead section of the Jewish terrorism article, a sourceless definition of Jewish terrorism as religious terrorism is given, then, in the very next sentence it says that the term is used, among other things, to describe the behaviour of settlers in the West Bank, citing a Haaretz article which is really just using the term to denote terrorism carried out by Jews (it makes one reference to religious fanaticism, but I don't think that its specifically talking about religious terrorism). I think that the normal situation that people would talk about Christian, Jewish or Muslim terrorism, is when they are using it as a convenient way of labelling the terrorists based on what differentiates them from the people they are terrorising or from other surrounding people. Therefore, the definitions given in the three articles of them being forms of religious terrorism are artificial. Hope I've made some sense. -- ZScarpia (talk) 01:42, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

As far as article titles go, to make the descendant relationship from the Religious Terrorism article explicit, my recommendation would be to rename the articles Christian Religious Terrorism, Jewish Religious Terrorism and Islamic (or Muslim) Religious Terrorism. -- ZScarpia (talk) 10:08, 16 February 2009 (UTC)