Talk:Seljuk Empire

Founder

The dynasty was founded by Tughrul Bey, not by Seljuq. Seljuq was only the eponymous ancestor. This needs to be corrected. Also, I think that it's best to remove any reference to ethnic origins from this article and instead put it into the Seljuq dynasty article. The Seljuq Empire was a multi-ethnic and multi-lingual empire that streched from Central Asia to Arabia, although it was Turkish- and Persian-ruled. This article should only focus on the empire, its geography, and its political importance.

I recently created this article by dividing the Seljuq dynasty article. There are couple of problems to be fixed in the article that's for sure. Deliogul 09:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I also think that the "Büyük Selçuklu Devleti" in the box is misleading an wrong. The modern Turkish language did not exist at the time of the Seljuqs, and it was certainly not the language of the Seljuq dynasty. While the dynasty itself was heavily Persianized and Islamized (Arabized), a heavily Persianized and Arabized Turkmen was the language of the tribal chiefs who served in the military of the Seljuqs (similar to the Ottoman language). Besides that, the Turkish identity of the Seljuqs is controversial anyway. For example, C. Fijnaut and L. Paoli write: "In the Seljuq periods, the authorities viewed Georgians, Iranians, and Slavs as the top ranking peoples, and Turks and Turkmens as the lowest. Turkish was a language only to be spoken by people of humble descent, and it is not difficult to find offensive and racist comments in the writings of Seljuq authors." (2004, Springer, pg 206) So I think that it should be removed. It is only relevant to the Turkish Wikipedia article, but not in the English Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.153.142 (talk) 13:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Who added this Turkish template to the English Wikipedia?!!!! Deliogul 15:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC) Note: It is normal now. Deliogul 08:16, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Reminder

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Please, see Meatpuppetry section, too. E104421 (talk) 15:17, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Quotations

Or else we will have to cquote every statement. The fact is that the statements thus far talk about Persian language, Culture and Persianization. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 17:10, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

• Quotation: Encyclopædia Britannica article: "Seljuq", Online Edition, 2007.:"also spelled Seljuk ruling military family of the Oguz (Ghuzz) Turkmen tribes that invaded southwestern Asia in the 11th century and eventually founded an empire that included Mesopotamia, Syria, Palestine, and most of Iran. Their advance marked the beginning of Turkish power in the Middle East." Please, do not remove that sentence. Regards. E104421 (talk) 18:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Nationality

Stop editing to "Persian" origin. Seljuqs and all their states are Turkish states. Pan-Persian blanking should stop anymore. Encyclopedia Iranica is not a reliable source. IT states everyone is Persian. stop it.

--Polysynaptic (talk) 11:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

It does not say "Persian", it says "Persianate" which is something different. Read the article Persianate society. The Seljuqs were ethnic Turks, but they were Persianate in culture, language, and even identity. That's what most scholastic sources say:

• "Turcoman armies coming from the East had driven the Byzantines out of much of Asia Minor and established the Persianized sultanate of the Seljuks." (Jonathan Dewald, "Europe 1450 to 1789: Encyclopedia of the Early Modern World", Charles Scribner's Sons, 2004, p. 24) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.130.148 (talk) 12:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

"Persianate" is ridiculous and racist expression. noone can except it. Go to Melik Şah and say "You are Persianate!" what doyou think answer?

They were Turkish. Of course Persian language were being used togather with Arabic as Lingua Franca. I ama Turksih man and i am writing in English. am I Anglicisied? of course not! Some orientalists think that they were "Persianated". IF they were Perisanated thus persianate, how do you think there would be A Republic of Turkey 1000 years after??? There tens of milions of Turks in Iran which is a Persian country. And those Turks are not Persianated. They speak Turkish. Their culture is Turkish. Lingua Franca and identity of a country are differnet things.

Finally what for to blank the references??? that is unexceptable! removing references is blanking which is vandalism.

--Polysynaptic (talk) 15:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

You are ignoring scholastic sources, and believe me: if you continue, it will get you banned. The Seljuqs did not identify themselvs as Turks or Persian, but simply as Seljuqs. The expression "Turk" was pejorative at that time and was a reference to "barbarian" Turkish nomads. Even in the Ottoman Empire, the word "Turk" was considered an insult:

• ... in the Imperial society of the Ottomans the ethnic term Turk was little used, and then chiefly in a rather derogatory sense, to designate the Turcoman nomads or, later, the ignorant and uncouth Turkish-speaking peasants of the Anatolian villages ... (Bernard Lewis quoted in O. Mehmet, "Islamic Identity and Development: Studies of the Islamic Periphery mentions", 1990, p. 115)
• ... One consequence was to reinforce these officers sense of their Turkish nationality, and a sense of national grievance arising out of the contrast between the non-Muslim communities, with their prosperous, European-educated elites, and 'the poor Turks [who] inherited from the Ottoman Empire nothing but a broken sword and an old-fashioned plough.' Unlike the non-Muslim and non-Turkish communities, they noted with some bitterness, the Turks did not even have a proper sense of their own national identity, and used to make fun of each other, calling themselves 'donkey Turk' ... (Handan Nezir Akmeshe, "The Birth Of Modern Turkey: The Ottoman Military And The March To World War I", I.B.Tauris, 2005. p. 50)

It was no different in the Seljuq era:

• ... The word Türk which was used at the beginning in such meanings as "nomad and peasant," later on departed from these meanings and came to be used to mean "stupid, doll-witted" (aptal, idraksiz). The Seljuqids [...] used the word to distinguish themselves from the nomadic Turcoman tribes ("Türk") and from those who were non-urban ... (Soykut, Mustafa. "Historical Image Of The Turk In Europe", Isis Press, Istanbul 2003, p. 14, ISBN 9754282471)

A famous poem of that time says:

• ... Nedir bildin me sin âlemde Türk'ü -- Ola eğninde kürkü, başında börkü -- Ne meszheb bile, ne din, ne diyânet -- Yumaz yüzün ne abdest ü tehâret ... (translation: "Did you know who is the Turk in this world? -- The one who has fur on his back and a fur hat on his head -- He does not know about religion, or religious sects, or piety -- Never washes his face, perform ablutions, or cleans himself"; Agha Sırrı Levend, Divan Edebiyatı, Istanbul 1984, p. 597) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.130.148 (talk) 15:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

If you continue your disruptive behavior, you will get banned. So please stop ignoring and deleting sources! "Persianate" is a common English word in scholastic sources. Just read the article Persianate society.

---

Initially you should sign your comments.

First, there everytime were people, such as artists, poets, and officers, even Sultans, who were against Turkish identity. They did use the word "Turk" to mean bad things, or for to associate bad things. That is true. But this never make the word "Turk" an "insult word". Every nation experienced it including Jews, Armenians, Englishes, Irishes, Germans, etc. But the identity never changes and insults define insulters -in the history, as well as at present. You read a few pages and think "Turk" is an insult word for Seljuks and Ottomans. That shows how ignorant you are about Turkish history. "Turk" has been the name of the states Turks founded for thousands of years. including Seljuks and Ottomans. I will not teach you Turkish history. Becasue you do not deserve it. But you shoud know "mr. nameless" that Turks never used "Turk" with a bad meaning except those who were not Turk but among Turks.

Seljuqs, just like Otomans, Göktürks, Karahanids, Oghuz Yabgu State, and Republic of Turkey... and just like all states and empires "Turkish" people founded were Turkish. Manuplating words, using biased, nationalist, "anti-turkist", and racist "writings" as sources to define Turkish entities as "x-ated", "not-Turkish but Turkic" or whatelse is just teach me how Persians are cursed with inferiority complex.

Do not change the identity of Turkish people, dynasties, states, empires, scientists.

Do not blank references which are not devoted for "Persianated theory"

I am not vandal. I am contributing Wikipedia by putting the truth first. But those who begrudge other nations success, tend to be.

--Polysynaptic (talk) 10:51, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Seljuqs were Persianate without a doubt. The important thing is to determine the degree of it. Imho, they were under heavy Persian influence, at least when we consider the noble class of the empire. Deliogul (talk) 11:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

You don't understand. "Persianate" is not a legitimate word, nor a legitimate feinition, nor a legitimate term.

--Polysynaptic (talk) 11:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

polysynaptic haklı, arada sırada türk taklidi yapın, persinated da ne demek aq--Orkh (talk) 04:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Please use English for talk page discussions on the English wikipedia. john k (talk) 16:42, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Great Seljuq Empire was clearly a Turkish Empire. Stop non-sense pan-Iraninan propaganda with references like "Encyclopedia Iranica". You can visit the http://www.thehistorychannel.co.uk/site/encyclopedia/article_show/Seljuk_Empire/m0009478.html link and see that the empire was Turkish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bkadirbeyoglu (talk • contribs) 11:08, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Protection Helped Vandalism

please;

{{editprotected}}

I requested protection against IP Vandalism and blanking. But you protected the article after vandal edited the article.

please UNDO LAST ACTION of anonymous IP user 82.83.133.161.

--Polysynaptic (talk) 14:50, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

N Declined. See meta:Wrong version. Sandstein (talk) 17:39, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

THE NAME OF SELJUQ

The name of Seljuq comes from SALCIK -after Selcuk... Sal meaning in Turkish=RAFT and cık=little (supplementary) Selçuk=Little RAFT.. and Raft was very important for Seljuqs.For example Oğuz Turks couldnt pass to Volga river without Raft.Just winters when river freezed. Sorry for Bad english but anybody dont talk about their name origin. And Source "Jean Paul Roux" his book: Faune et Flore sacrees p134, and Turkish writer Doğan Avcıoğlu History Of Turks p372" Please add this information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.224.87.216 (talk • contribs) 11:34, January 22, 2008 (UTC) – Please sign your posts!

Name

from where does the prefix "Great" come from? Isn't it redundant or even POV?--Pejman47 (talk) 09:31, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The epithet serves to distinguish it from the Seljuk sultanates that split off from the Great Sultanate around the end of the 11th century, mostly upon the death of Malik Shah I, such as those of Anatolia, Kerman, Syria, and Iraq, all under the leadership of members of the Seljuk dynasty, descendants of Seljuk.  --Lambiam 00:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Minor edits needed in the References

Ref. 13 loses its italic form roughly 2/3 of the way through, and ref. 16 shows as misaligned larger bold text. The regular Edit command doesn't offer the text of the Refs., so I couldn't fix these items (except for 16., which I didn't know what to do with.) Nikevich (talk) 09:04, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Turko-Persian

http://books.google.com/books?q=Seljuk+turko-persian --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:20, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

The Turkish expression Büyük Selçuklu İmparatorluğu is a modern expression and was unknown at the time of Seljuqs (most of all, because the New Turkish language did not exist at that time and developed much later). As such, it is irrelevenat, as the power-base of the Great Seljuqs was further in the east and because the official "state" language of the empire was Persian (and to some extent also Arabic). Tajik (talk) 20:25, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Turkish origin

Too much discussion on the nationality. Seljuks were of Turkish origin. But as the word empire suggest, the country was multi-lingualthe . It was true that Persian was used in certain official writings. But what does it prove ? Remember Persian was lingua franca of the era, just like Latin of Europe. ( Do we call North Europeans Latin just because they used Latin in their letters ? )Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 13:03, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

This article is about the Empire, not about the Seljuq dynasty. And the empire was NOT Turkic. Tajik (talk) 17:51, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

And, er, the British empire was not Anglo-Saxon? john k (talk) 19:16, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Bad comparison. The British Empire started from a sedentary, well-organized kingdom and conquered territories around the world that were, usually, inferior in terms of military, science, culture, etc. It continued to remain "British" and "English" and exported its language, culture, and identity to the conquered territories. The Seljuqs were the leaders of a band of loosely-allied central Asian nomads, culturally inferior to neighboring peoples, who first overran the Persian territories, quickly adopted the local customs, and then began to move further West in the name of the conquered regions (both in the name of Muslim caliphate and that of the Persian kings). They never established their own language in any region, quite to the contrary. They adopted the literary languages of the conquered region, appointed locals to the highest positions, etc. Already Alp Arslan had started to replace the Turkoman militia with a trained army of Arab and Kurdish "ghazis". Tajik (talk) 19:55, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Surely their own language was (eventually) established in northwestern Iran, Azerbaijan, and Turkey, no? john k (talk) 20:30, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

No. The Turkish language was first established by the Karamanoğlu (under Karamanoğlu Mehmet Bey) who were part of the Beylik era of Anatolia. In the end, it was Atatürk who made Turkish an official language. In court and court surroundings, Persian remained the official and dominant religion. That's the reason why Kayqubad I carved verses of the Shahnama in his palaces and why Suleiman the Magnificent compiled an entire divan in Persian. In Azerbaijan, the language was established by the Qara Qoyunlu and Aq Qoyunlu (and, after that, by the Qizilbash). The Seljuqs had nothing to do with it. In regard of Seljuqs conquests in Anatolia and Caucasus, the Encyclopaedia of Islam writes about Alp Arslan: "The securing of the rich lands of Djibāl and the reduction of the Būyids were thus his objectives, with Ādharbāydjān and the routes into the Caucasus, Armenia and Anatolia being left to the less-disciplined bands of Turkmens." These "less-disciplined bands of Turkmens" later founded the Beyliqs of Anatolia and - in the next centuries - (more or less) established Turkish dialects in the regions. The overwhelming majority of the Seljuq Empire remained non-Turkish. Tajik (talk) 10:11, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

No the Turkish language existed way before beylik era of anatolia, the roots of Turkish language can be traced back to Central Asia. The oldest records of Turkic language, is the old Turkic Orkhon inscriptions of the 7th century Göktürk khaganate. Following the ADOPTION of Islam c. 950 by the Kara-Khanid Khanate and the Seljuq Turks, who are both regarded as the cultural ancestors of the Ottomans, the administrative language of these states acquired a large collection of LOANWORDS from Arabic and Persian. Turkish literature during the Ottoman period, particularly Ottoman Divan poetry, was influenced by Persian, including the adoption of poetic meters and a great quantity of IMPORTED words. What ataturk did was when creating the Republic of Turkey he REMOVED the Persian and Arabic LOANWORDS in favor of NATIVE variants and coinages from Turkic roots. Turkic language is spoken by Turkic peoples across a vast area from EASTERN EUROPE and the MEDITERRANEAN to CENTRAL ASIA, SIBERIA and WESTERN CHINA. Seljuqs origin is Turkic but Seljuq empire was based more on religion than race it was a multi lingual and multi ethnical empire. Turks in Seljuq era spoke turkic and those people are still living in iran. Today iran is full of turks irans population is around 74 million and 24% of that are azeri turks, 2% Turkmens and 1% Qashqai Turks. In total thats around 20 million turks in iran, thats all due to seljuq turks conquest of Iran. FFS Seljuq empire is turkic, it was created by Turks ruled by Turks and named after a turk, you dont have to be an einstein to understand that, do yaa? Mystery.sin (talk) 19:03, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

This un-scholarly, un-encyclopedic, nationalistic comment is not worth of any comments. Your edit will be reverted, because it is wrong. You lack understanding of the subject, and you lack knowledge of the subject. Sorry. Tajik (talk) 22:44, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

And, by the way: it's Turkic languages - it's a family, not a single language. The Orkhon inscription was written in the 8/9th century, and it is - literally - filled with Non-Turkish words. The oldest inscription of the Göktürks, namely the Bugut Inscription, was not in any Turkic language but in Sogdian. In fact, the ethnonym türk is derived from Khotanese truka (which via Sogdian trukut became türküt and finally türk), the name of a Scythian tribe in the Altay region. Steppe people did not have a nationality, they formed alliances whenever the needed it. The Oghuz alliance was itself a mix of different peoples, and the Qynyq were one family within that confederation. Calling the Seljuq Empire "Turkic" is totally wrong. It did not act as a Turkish empire, it did not use Turkish (in fact, there is not a SINGLE written text in Turkish from the Seljuq era!), it did not identify as Turkish. And as has been already explained: this article is about the EMPIRE, not about the ruling family (which was totally mixed with local aristocratic families due to marriage-politics). As for the Ottomans: the Qarakhanids are not regarded their cultural ancestors. Tajik (talk) 22:51, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

As I told Mystery.sin, this has been addressed. And now, it has been addressed, AGAIN! --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:55, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Do you actually believe in the nonsense you spat? Enought with the Iranic/Persian fairy tales, this is wikipedia not your private website in here people have to be neutral and not biased. The ethnonym Turk or term Turk applied to a Turkic group was in reference to the Göktürks in the sixth century. The Orhun inscriptions (AD 735) use the terms Turk and Turuk, and Chinese record of 1328 BC refer to neighbouring people as Tu-Kiu located on the Orkhon River south of Lake Baikal. The monuments of Kultigin and Bilge Kagan, situated near the Kosho-Tsaydam lake in the Orhun River valley to the south of the Lake Baykal, and that of Sage Tonyukuk the Deputy-Khan a little farther, are the three important memorials which make up what is known in general as the Orhun Monuments or old Turkic monuments, which are filled with Turkic words and form the base of Turkic language.

And about the Bugut monument: The Bugut monument was not written in old Turkic(Orhun script) but it was about Gokturk empire. It was basically a narrator of historical events, on three sides of it there was a Sogdian texts in Sogdian letters (Sogdian alphabet is derived from syriac, the descendant script of the aramic alphabet) and on the forth side there is a Sanskrit text in Brahmi letters. Having encountered many religions and cultures throughout the history, Turks have changed their alphabets within the centuries by the influence of these religions and cultures. Since then, Orkun, Sogdian, Uyghur, Chinese, Mani, Brahmi(sanskrit), Arabic, Greek, Hebrew, Cyrillic and Latin alphabets were used in Turkish/Turkic texts. The longest used alphabet by Turks was the Arabic alphabet due to adoption of islam. Turks before stepping in iran converted to islam and used arabic. People in Iran also used arabic alphabet so thats why you dont see any written text in Turkish during the seljuq era. Arabic was lingua franca of that era, just like Latin of today and Turks didnt try to destroy others language or culture because it kept the empire unified, it kept people from not rebelling. Turks in Seljuq era spoke Turkic(Mother Tongue) but write in Arabic and those people still live in Iran. Today iran is full of turks, Irans population is around 74 million and 24% of that are Azeri Turks, 2% Turkmens and 1% Qashqai Turks. In total thats around 20 million turks in iran, thats all due to Seljuq Turks conquest of Iran. Seljuq empire was Turkic, it was created by Turks ruled by Turks and named after a Turk. Its quite simple to understand. The "Persinate Turkic medieval Sunni Muslim empire" definition stays, no more biased one sided bullcrap. Neutrality is kept. -- Mystery.sin (talk) 02:45, 30 September 2009 (UTC)