User talk:Hans Adler

If I left a message on your talk page, then I will be watching it for a while. So you can simply reply there, and the discussion will be in one place. Similarly, when an experienced editor comments here I will usually respond here. I do not use "talkback" templates, and it rarely if ever makes sense to leave me such templates.

Italian romantic epic

I've written up an account of the Ludovico Ariosto argument here. Basically, in spite of what Ottava claims, it is not "fringe" to call Orlando Furioso a "romantic epic". In fact it's remarkably common and it's called such by the most recent translation (Slavitt, 2009). None of the following people could be persuaded that the "romantic epic" epithet was fringe: Moreschi, Dougweller, Itsmejudith, The Hand that Feeds, Dbachmann, Akhilleus, Paul Barlow, Mathsci, Ettormo, Drmies. Akhilleus and Dbachmann suggested compromises, however, and Dbachmann even invited Ottava to change "romantic epic" to "romance epic" if it bothered him that much. He refused for some inexplicable reason. But thus began his monumental grudge against users who had taken part in that Fringe Theories Noticeboard discussion. The first hint of it came at Itsmejudith's RFA in January, when he alleged she was part of a cabal. --Folantin (talk) 10:42, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the context. Perhaps a thorough analysis of that debate would really provide additional insight. On the other hand I am not sure that it's needed any more. Ottava doesn't stop shovelling, and I have some hope that the only real question will be what to do about his behaviour. Hans Adler 10:48, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it's a behaviourial issue. The important thing about that debate is not the content dispute but the vendetta that followed, with Ottava stalking me and Dbachmann to the Persian Empire page eight months later. It's obvious he had a grudge against me over the Ariosto issue because he said so himself on a user talk page in June [1]. (Of course, it's complete nonsense that I made it impossible for him to improve the page. I merely altered a single word. I never reverted other additions he had made [2]. Perhaps I should have though. I see that Ottava referred to Ariosto's "rye sense of humor". Was that whisky-induced? Fortunately, someone else fixed it [3]). --Folantin (talk) 10:56, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

"Rye humor" seems to be the kind of Google search that's well worth repeating once every few years when there is nothing else to do. Hans Adler 11:42, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it's like "corny" jokes (sorry for that one in advance - bad puns go against the grain with me usually). --Folantin (talk) 11:47, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

• You might want to recheck your statement [4] here. Many of the works here, that you used as evidence, do not classify Orlando as a "romantic epic" but an influence on the romantic epics by the Romantic poets. This one does not have such problems. Notice that even Barbara Reynold's translation comes up in that search. Then check out these [5], [6], [7], [8], etc. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:19, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I never claimed that nobody refers to Orlando as a "romance epic". I just said it was common and perfectly acceptable to call it a "romantic epic" and anyone familiar with the subject would have seen it referred to as such. Hence there was no reason to change the page. Britannica uses the term, so why not Wikipedia. You said this was "fringe" and took it to Fringe Theories Noticeboard. Understandably, nobody agreed with you or your assault on Reynolds. You put this down to a "cabal". --Folantin (talk) 15:30, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

(unindent, ec with Folantin above) OK, Ottava, so you know that it is totally wrong to call Orlando Furioso a "romantic epic". (Not that you have convinced me, but so what.) Why then did you not correct it? Not even after Folantin, and then Dbachmann, invited you to do so? They felt it wasn't necessary. You felt it was absolutely vital, yet you insisted that Folantin had to do it? I am beginning to entertain the possibility that you are not just playing stupid but that you are really, really unable to see the difference between

• "'Romantic epic' and 'romance epic' are equally valid in this context."

and

• "Only 'romantic epic' is valid in this context."

The first was your opponents' position. The second seems to be what you imagined their position to be in spite of all the obvious evidence to the contrary.

Such serious miscommunications are extremely rare unless you are involved. It doesn't matter whether you have a binary brain that can only deal with black and white and never learned about different shades of grey; whether you are roleplaying; whether you are intentionally disruptive; whether you are so preoccupied with fantasies about conspiracies against you that you can't pay attention to what your opponents are saying; or whatever is the reason. Getting to the root of this is none of our business here at Wikipedia except that it would be nice to have some guidance on possible ways to get you out of this problem. But one thing is absolutely clear: your communication problems are leading to massive disruption in this project, and this disruption must stop. It can only stop (a) by you changing your behaviour, or (b) by you leaving the project. I hope it will be (a), and since it's clear that this will be hard for you I think we must think about ways of protecting unsuspecting editors who run into you before you have finished that process.

Perhaps the following gets through to you as a demonstration that you have a problem:

• When you say "I am civil" you actually mean "I am not breaking WP:CIVIL in a blockworthy way" – a dramatically weaker statement.
• When Folantin says "'romantic epic' and 'romance epic' are equally good and there is no need to switch" you assume that he actually means "'romance epic' is wrong and therefore the wording 'romantic epic' must not be changed" – a dramatically stronger statement.

Interpreting your own statements as something weaker than what you said when you have to defend them, and your opponents' statements as something stronger than they said when you are attacking them. That's an ultra-cheap rhetorical technique that only works when your opponent is stupid or doesn't get a chance to respond. It's despicable to even try it in a consensus-based project such as Wikipedia, but it looks as if it has become second nature to you so: you can't even control it in front of the arbitration committee. Hans Adler 15:56, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

It's quite a mystery why Ottava never took the opportunity when it was offered to him. --Folantin (talk) 19:23, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

• "never claimed that nobody refers to Orlando as a "romance epic"." If that was true, you wouldn't be so obstinate against use of Romance Epic instead of Romantic Epic for the page. That is the center of the argument. Either you allow the compromise, or you don't. If you don't, then you are ignoring lots of major criticism without a good justification. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:33, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Hey, you were offered a chance to change it yourself to "romance epic" way back in January. Why didn't you do it? --Folantin (talk) 19:34, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't edit war. You made fun of me for it. I -did- originally put it up and did make a revert, and Moreschi and you edited it out of existence. I'm not giving you some excuse to claim I am breaking rules. If you want to prove that you discuss and compromise, you would put it up yourself. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:37, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Then you got the green light to make the change [9] but you didn't make it [10]. You insisted I make it for you. --Folantin (talk) 19:39, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

You've already expressed what can be construed as ownership and have brought up the issue over a dozen times in multiple unrelated pages. If you want to show that you really care about compromise, discussion, and working with people, why have you not bothered to change it yourself? Why are you so aggressive on so many pages about it, yet when you say it could be okay you have not done it to prove such? Ottava Rima (talk) 19:48, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

"[You] have brought up the issue over a dozen times in multiple unrelated pages". Eh? You're the one who took it to Fringe Theories Noticeboard, user talk pages (including, it now appears, one on Wikiversity), the Content Noticeboard and canvassed the issue several times on IRC. If you are so desperate to make the change, go ahead and make it. Either that or drop the whole matter. --Folantin (talk) 19:54, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I have canvassed about Ludovico Ariosto? Then how come no one except people you've had a long time editing with participated in both the talk page and the fringe noticeboard page? And when I asked someone who blatantly does not like me, Geogre, he agreed with me on the matter? Your argument is rather odd, and you still haven't provided a reason as to why you haven't changed it yourself, which is rather odd too. You've been asked many times, and yet nothing. Are you afraid to? Ottava Rima (talk) 21:22, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, you canvassed on IRC. But nobody paid any attention to your pleas because, frankly, it seems pretty much everyone is bored of your badgering by now. You've already had my reason for not changing it myself: I don't care. It is perfectly accurate to call Orlando a "romantic epic" as the page (and others on Wikipedia) do now. If you are so passionate about the phrase "romance epic" then it's up to you to alter it. --Folantin (talk) 21:27, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Have proof that I "canvassed" on IRC? By the way, I altered it four minutes before you responded. Now that it has been changed, are you going to answer the question posed to you for eleven months as to why you haven't changed it yourself if you really believed it was an acceptable compromise? Ottava Rima (talk) 21:40, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I've got proof. It's on its way to the arbs. As for the rest, you've already had your answer. Ciao. --Folantin (talk) 22:00, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't want to involve myself in the mess that the Ottava Rima ArbCom case has become. However, I will just restate here what I said on WP:FTN. His on-wiki assertion that the scholar Barbara Reynolds is a "hack writer" is his own personal opinion, and probably a BLP violation. She is usually referred to as a leading expert on Dante. His other assertion that her post-war appointment as University Lecturer in the University of Cambridge was inconsequential and that anybody could have such a post is also a personal opinion and quite untrue, just as much today as it was then. Barbara Reynolds is now in her nineties. It is quite inappropriate for her reputation to be smeared on wikipedia, even by editors who despise her work. Why am I reminded of User:Log in, log out's comments about Johanna Nichols? Mathsci (talk) 22:40, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Mathsci, one only needs to look at your inappropriate and harassing comments over at Wikipedia Review where you admit your friendship and bias towards Moreschi. And yes, Barbara Reynolds can never be classified as an expert on epic and it is amazing that you would try to suggest otherwise. And lecturer is not an advanced position. Cambridge has thousands of lecturers, most teaching low level classes. If you want to call pointing out the obvious a "smear", then there is really nothing to be said for you. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:06, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I suppose it's true that lecturer is not an "advanced position"; its rough equivalent in the US system is assistant professor. Of course, Reynolds has been a bit more than a lecturer; she's been a visiting professor at institutions in the US and at Trinity College, Dublin, and a readers at the University of Nottingham. She's also been honored by the Italian government for her services to Italian literature [11]...quite impressive for a "hack writer". --Akhilleus (talk) 00:25, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

But not once a professor of epic, let alone Renaissance Epic. It is always "Italian" literature, which is based on her ability to translate. And Akhilleus, a "hack writer" is one who writes to make money, not one who writes for academia. Her record is nothing close to someone like Zatti or David Quint. You keep thinking that some publications (based on standards, not that much for her long career) equals expert whereas they aren't the right publications. David Quint for comparison. Remember, I listed many such people. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:32, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

"based on her ability to translate"? Do you have any evidence for your bizarre contention that Reynolds' positions were granted because of her ability to translate, and not because of her competence as a translator, lexicographer, teacher, and scholar? And is there a reason why you feel compelled to insult Reynolds' accomplishments? I notice you're still referring to her as a hack writer. I have to agree with Mathsci that this is a BLP violation.

I have no idea what a "professor of epic" is. Is there an epic studies department out there somewhere? David Quint teaches in a department of comparative literature. Based on the logic you're employing here, I guess that means he has the ability to translate literature from two languages... --Akhilleus (talk) 01:06, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

← (ec) Just a few comments, if Hans will forgive me. WR is somewhat irrelevant: I commented on OR's editing style (I compared it to that of User:Mrathel, which I find exemplary). What OR has written about the University of Cambridge is clueless and inaccurate. Most lecturers in Cambridge teach one undergraduate course, one postgraduate course and supervise Ph.D. students. They are appointed primarily on the basis of their research, not on their teaching ability. The standard lecture load is 40 lectures (16 + 24). (There might conceivably be some confusion between college fellows and university lecturers; there is also a difference between an assistant lecturer in Cambridge and a University Lecturer.) The vast majority of lecturers in Cambridge are now professors following the campaign of Gillian Evans, Emeritus Professor of Theology and Medieval History, in the 1990s [12]. Prior to that, unlike the USA, there were very few professors in the university, most of them having named chairs; now that is no longer the case. Moreschi is not a friend of mine - I've never interacted with him to my knowledge. I once participated on WP:ANI with Folantin when User:Log in, log out showed up making disparaging remarks about the female academic from the University of California at Berkeley mentioned above. Mathsci (talk) 01:11, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

• "Do you have any evidence for your bizarre contention that Reynolds' positions were granted because of her ability to translate" I take it that you didn't bother to check her "scholarly" publications. Most of them were a handful of translations with no real books of criticism. "Is there an epic studies department out there somewhere?" See, there are professors of "Victorian poetry", "Professors of American Fiction", etc. Normally, when universities have positions, they hire people based on a focus area. Epic is a focus. "I have to agree with Mathsci that this is a BLP violation." Go ahead and claim it as such all you want, but the term "hack writer" is not a pejorative. It merely denotes that one writes books to sell, which translations and popular biographies fall under.
• "The vast majority of lecturers in Cambridge are now professors" I'd love to see proof of such claims. Seeing as how the "majority" of faculty at Cambridge probably never will have permanent positions (if you go by numbers). "I've never interacted with him to my knowledge" And yet you showed up at quite a few of these pages and vigorously defended him at WR. I find that interesting. I already provided examples of conversations with both you and Akhilleus arguing... what you are arguing above. How odd that you happen to coincide together at the same time while trying to argue the same point. You wouldn't happen to be sharing details of what you wish to say before posting, do you? It would make sense for you to get your talking points synchronized first. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I was a tenured faculty member in Cambridge. 20 years ago there were probably only 6 or 7 chairs in the department. Now there are over 20 and promotion is usually a simple matter, based on age, provided research contributions remain constant. Almost all university lectureships in Cambridge become tenured after 3 years. There might be some confusion due to posts such as junior research fellowships in colleges or college lectureships. There is a distinction between university posts and college posts. University posts are tenured; these often come with college fellowships, coterminous with the university appointment, although life fellowships are often awarded after 25 years service. Appointments solely through colleges and not the university are usually temporary; that is not what is under discussion here. Mathsci (talk) 01:49, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

"was a tenured faculty member in Cambridge" Fascinating. Most people I know who worked with Cambridge or just went to Cambridge referred to a specific college, but you haven't at all. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:26, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I have two colleges, one where I was an undergraduate and one where I was a fellow. But why do feel you need to know this? And why do you think somebody who's been employed in Cambridge for years would put their college attachments before their university department? That seems completely crazy. (Incidentally one ex-arbitrator intersected with me in Cambridge, so you should be extremely cautious on how you write if you're in any way attempting to cast doubt on the statement you cite. It might indeed be advisable for you to refactor what you've just written.) Mathsci (talk) 04:11, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't care if you taught at a college at Cambridge, but normally people who did actually refer to that college and don't make sweeping generalizations about faculty and the expertise of faculty as a whole, especially when they are people who are merely at the entrance level for permanent staff. As I showed below, the people I cited aren't "first" level and have many publications on -epic-. By the way, about your threat. Have that ex arbitrator contact me, and I can discuss with them how your approach is completely unfounded. It would be nice. I'm curious as to who you are referring to, as I've talked to most of the ex Arbitrators in the past and only two would really fit the bill. "why do you think somebody who's been employed in Cambridge for years would put their college attachments before their university department" - that statement alone would really cast doubts about you knowing how Cambridge works or you are just saying such things in order to reinforce a generalization that you know can't be reinforced. There is far too much pride between the different colleges to ever associate yourself as just "Cambridge". However, since I already exposed how you were attempting to argue a first level position as something of significance, it could just be a continuation of bluffing about things in order to win an argument. Of course, if you really did teach there, it would just simply say that you know you are wrong and hope no one can figure that out. An odd thing, really, but with some of the nasty comments you stated against me at Wikipedia Review, it seems that you would really hate to be wrong after making them. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:50, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Please rest assured that I have not been bluffing. I was a tenured member of the Mathematics Faculty and simultaneously a fellow of a college. I was not in any way at the "entrance level" as incorrectly suggested, since it was not my first tenured university position. You still seem to be rather confused about Faculty (where lectures are given) and Colleges (where supervisions are given). Perhaps one of those many people you know that have been to Cambridge can explain this to you. It must also be in the wikipedia article on the University of Cambridge. You might also want to take a look at DPMMS. I don't see where pride between colleges comes into this, particularly after having attachments to two colleges. Perhaps when people are students that might seem important. But now in fact many faculty members prefer not to be attached to colleges, e.g. Ian Grojnowski and Burt Totaro. Mathsci (talk) 06:15, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

"Please rest assured that I have not been bluffing." I said bluffing about Barbara Reynolds. That one was obvious. And if you had multiple tenured positions, what is to say -she- did? You haven't provided any actual history of her background, let alone publications. I, on the other hand, have provided extensive backgrounds for those I cited. It is interesting how that happens. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:31, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Ottava, your line of reasoning is becoming increasingly hard to follow now. This is a question of post-war appointments where most of the modern points of reference that you've mentioned are quite inapplicable. Mathsci (talk) 23:22, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

My line of reasoning? You stated that her status was something worth while. You have failed to show how she compares to any of the individuals I have put forth. The rest of your logic equally falls flat. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:13, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

What a lot of bluster Ottava comes out with when he's lost an argument. If I remember correctly he was making sneering statements based on Barbara Reynolds' employment as a University Lecturer. His statements still seem to be severely confused about this. Having abandoned that line of reasoning, he is now attempting to rescue himself by suggesting an alternartive method of evaluatung her. But WP editors don't evaluate authors in that way on wikipedia. This might be an amusing pub game for graduate students, but not here thank you very much. Mathsci (talk) 08:36, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I think it is interesting how you continue to claim that you are correct when it was pointed out time after time that a lecturer is merely the first permanent position. You still have yet to provide a lower permanent position. And Mathsci, I find it delightful how you ignore all of the conversation, especially the part when you are trying to claim a translator overrides what 8 different experts in epic classify the work as (remember, the original discussion? or did you forget?). Perhaps your memory has slipped because you realized you were wrong. As such, I can only assume that you are conceding on the original discussion. Thank you for that. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:22, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

A response to Ottava: Ah, another unsupported accusation of meatpuppetry. Perhaps I will add my voice to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Ottava Rima restrictions/Evidence after all.

I'm quite familiar with the idea of academic areas of focus. But listing "epic poetry" as one of your areas of focus on your CV, webpage, etc. doesn't make you a "professor of epic"--it makes you a professor of comparative literature (or English, Italian, Classics, whatever) who specializes in epic poetry. As far as Reynolds, there's plenty of reason to think that she knows a bit about epic (she translated one, after all, and taught Italian literature--which includes some epic--for many years). Your arguments that she isn't qualified to speak about epic boil down to insults directed at Reynolds' scholarship and an apparent disrespect of the craft of translation--as if translators are automatons who don't have valuable opinions about the literature they translate.

The idea that "hack writer" is "not a pejorative" is ridiculous. You could profit from reading the linked article, if only to see that your concept of the term is idiosyncratic. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:57, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

"Ah, another unsupported accusation of meatpuppetry" No, just a question. After all, you edit conflicted while saying the same thing. It is quite amusing how you are both arguing the same points and yet trying to distance yourself from any relationship with anyone else. "as one of your areas of focus on your CV, webpage, etc. doesn't make you a "professor of epic"" - Zatti is a professor of epic. David Quint is a professor of epic. They publish books on epic as a genre. They tend to hang out in the same groups at various conferences. Specialists in epic are rather prominent. "The idea that "hack writer" is "not a pejorative" is ridiculous" - Samuel Johnson said that there was no legitimate reason to write except for money. Grub Street had a very old tradition of it. There are thousands of dime novelists authors that don't see their trade as a bad thing. Hell, popular books are called popular for a reason. Wanting to make money is not a negative. But it does place someone as less reliable when they don't lack standard academic works in a specific area. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:26, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Ottava--I should have said "another unsupported insinuation of meatpuppetry." I apologize for the error. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:29, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Don't apologize yet, because I never said you were posting on his behalf. You could just be tag teaming. :P But seriously, you don't really do yourself a favor when you are both defending yourself and the other. If you aren't actually working cooperatively, it would probably help to focus on yourself and not the other guy. Regardless, I didn't even bother to list you on any of the workshop proposals, so there is no real reason to be so agitated or defensive. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:41, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm not defensive, though I may be a bit agitated. I've told you several times that I don't appreciate your insinuations of meatpuppetry, tag-teaming, or other illicit collaborative behavior, and I'm going to offer some evidence about it, whether or not you've listed me at the workshop. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:44, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

You did edit conflict with an individual while basically saying the same thing on the same topic. Just look at the responses you and he made above. Compare the times. If you don't like to be described as a Zebra, maybe you shouldn't wear white with black stripes? :) Ottava Rima (talk) 02:47, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Ottava Rima has not responded to the point I made about the distinction between tenured university lecturers, like Barbara Reynolds, and college employees. The former are called UTOs (university teaching officers), the latter CTOs (college teaching officers). He presumably has come across Christ's College in connection with John Milton. (His deathmask is on display in the Senior Combination Room.) Mathsci (talk) 03:46, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Cambridge, like all Universities, is split into many different units, mostly referred to as colleges. I find it interesting that you referred to it as Cambridge when referring to two different people, as people don't refer to it as a whole, especially when making sweeping statements about faculty. People who are closely associated with the different schools tend not to do that. And Christ's College comes up quite a lot. Lecturer - "is the name given to those who teach in their first permanent university position. That is, lecturers are academics early in their careers" What a prestigious position. I guess the idea of "first" and "early" weren't figuring in when you were trying to promote her status, right? Now, as for Sergio Zatti, 6 major publications on epic, oh, and that was Harvard he was visiting. David Quint at Yale? Oh my. Look at all of those academic publications listed. You might have me on Andrew Fichter, he is just a Yale PhD graduate who also graduated from their Law School and published on Epic while working as a lawyer and a professor, but Jane Everson is an actual Professor in the UK with quite a large selection of books. Poor Dennis Looney is just a student of Zatti with a large selection of awards and publications for his work. I could go on if you would prefer. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:16, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

←What you have written about Cambridge is incorrect. The University of Cambridge is divided into faculties and then departments. The colleges are separate entities. They lodge undergraduates, graduates and some fellows. Undergraduates attend courses in the university and then are supervised, usually in pairs, in the colleges. The newly remodeled Faculty of English is on the Sidgwick Site off West Road, the other side of the river Cam from most of the colleges. I don't think it's that easy to be appointed a University Lecturer in Cambridge. Richard Borcherds is an example of somebody who proved his main results that were later to win him a Fields medal before his appointment as a University Lecturer. As you correctly write, "what a prestigious position". Mathsci (talk) 05:12, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I find it funny that Ottava attacks Reynolds as a "mere" Lecturer in Italian at Cambridge when he can't read basic Italian himself. He also thinks that specialists in Ariosto (such as Professor Peter Marinelli) are not qualified to talk about...Ariosto. There again, the whole idea that there is an important distinction between the "Italian romantic epic" and the "Italian romance epic" is simply a product of his overheated imagination. This is a guy who is quite prepared to argue that Malory's Morte d'Arthur is a work of "Renaissance poetry", remember. --Folantin (talk) 08:25, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I think I still haven't seen a diff for that. I once found a discussion here that referenced a long list on Wikiversity that contained that error, but I don't remember seeing him defending it. Are you sure he did that, and do you remember where? Hans Adler 08:28, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

He attempts to defend his boo-boo here [13] by dodging the whole "poetry/prose" issue and slipping in some sophistry about Malory being part of the Renaissance rather than the Middle Ages (even though he’s dealt with by the Medieval department at Oxford University, to take one example [14]). Of course, Ottava is infallible and can never admit he has just made a mistake. That's the basic problem. --Folantin (talk) 08:43, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, that's a pretty good example after all. I am already a bit spoilt and was looking for a totally clear statement of the type "Why do you want to destroy Wikipedia by claiming Malory ever wrote prose?" (Example completely made up, of course.) Hans Adler 08:51, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

It’s pretty obvious from this [15] that he's not overly familiar with English Medieval and Renaissance literature. Apart from making the Malory error, he has Langland down as prose, Sidney's Arcadia as poetry (it is a long prose romance with a few sections of poetry) and Spenser’s The Faerie Queene has the unusual spelling “Edmund Spencer: The Fairie Queen”. OK, everyone makes mistakes but if you make these kind of slip-ups you don’t get to call Professor John Beer and his associates “unscholarly hacks” as Ottava did here. [16]. --Folantin (talk) 09:04, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I think it's unfair to judge him by that page. We all write some pretty embarrassing things on notepaper occasionally, and the initial versions of wiki pages (what is not an initial version on Wikiversity?) are often very similar. Personally I draw the line where he defends these things as correct. Hans Adler 09:45, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

...although it's quite intriguing to note that he has Tennyson down as "Alfred, Lord Tennyson" there ;) . --Folantin (talk) 11:43, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

As I stated in both the Byron discussion and the Tennyson discussion, my personal thoughts and use do not reflect our policies, guidelines, and standards as "personal preference" is not an acceptable rationale. 14:35, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I never defended the "poetry" vs "prose" as correct because I put down Morte D'Arthur in poetry instead of the Alliterative Morte Arthure, which is -definitely- a poem. I did defend it as a Ren work because it was the first major publication which heralded in both Ren printing and set the tone for Ren works. It was a piece edited by Caxton and definitely altered by Caxton. Caxton's version and the later rediscovered version are two very different things. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:35, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Yeah right. So you ascribed the authorship of the Alliterative Morte Arthure to Malory then put it in the Renaissance when it belongs to the 14th century? --Folantin (talk) 15:05, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Both works belong on the list. It was thrown together and that was only the first stage. It isn't hard to look down, see two of the same words and then put the wrong one up when you are putting up a section. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:00, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

"He also thinks that specialists in Ariosto (such as Professor Peter Marinelli)" How strange that a person without major publications in Ariosto is now a "specialist". Interestingly, I couldn't find a university page for him.... The other critics I listed all had prominent pages by prominent universities with long catalogs of publications in the field and awards that go with their research.... this specialist doesn't seem to have anything.... Ottava Rima (talk) 14:31, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

He died in 1993. [17] Voceditenore (talk) 14:52, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

He wrote a book on Ariosto and Boiardo: The Origins of Orlando Furioso and was chosen by Cambridge University Press to write the section on 16th century narrative poetry for their History of Italian Literature. I think it's fair to say he was a specialist in Ariosto. --Folantin (talk) 15:05, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

See also his Shaping the Ore: Image and Design in Canto 1 of Orlando Furioso; "The flight of Ariosto's hippogriff: genesis, elaboration, and function" in Ficino and Renaissance Neoplatonism, Volume 1 of University of Toronto Italian studies; and "Redemptive Laughter: Comedy in the Italian Romances" in Versions of Medieval Comedy, Univ. of Oklahoma Press, 1987. His major work, Ariosto and Boiardo: The Origins of Orlando Furioso has over 100 citations on Google books alone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by voceditenore (talk • contribs) 16:20, 23 November 2009

16th century Italian means expert on epic how? By the way, merely writing on a work does not mean you are expert on epic. Feminists have written on Ariosto also, but they aren't reliable sources for genre classification. And 100 citations? That is it? Andrew Fichter had 198 citations there. Yet you don't recognize him at all. Your understanding of "specialist" and "expert" leave much to be desired. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:00, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I was merely responding to your query: "How strange that a person without major publications in Ariosto is now a "specialist". I didn't realize that what you meant was: How strange that a person without major publications on the epic is now a "specialist". I was also explaining why Marinelli doesn't have a university staff page since he has been dead for 16 years. But if you're interested in Ariosto in general, and Orlando in particular, you might find Marinelli's writings useful.Voceditenore (talk) 17:25, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

There are plenty of dead critics with university pages or the rest. And Voceditenore, my interest in Ariosto is only as a translation of epic from the Classical to the Christian. Hence, why I have so many works on the matter. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Pity, it's a gripping read. But never mind. ;-) Voceditenore (talk) 23:22, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Are you saying Marinelli's works are gripping? Or Ariosto? Because it was Marinelli who I wasn't going to bother with (whereas, I have read Ariosto). Ottava Rima (talk) 04:13, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I find the whole idea of "specialising" in the epic quite amusing. That would require a knowledge of Greek, Latin, most of the major and minor modern European languages, Sanskrit, Persian, Sumerian, Akkadian, Georgian, Tibetan, Mandinka and so on and so on. But Ottava thinks he is the maestro di color che sanno and can dictate who is competent to talk about Ariosto, even though he doesn't know basic Italian (he thinks basta means "bastard") and seems never to have read Orlando. --Folantin (talk) 17:39, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

"That would require a knowledge of Greek, Latin, most of the major and minor modern European languages" - you do know that we have translators now, right? You have been promoting one as an expert. And you can easily specialize in Latin, Italian, and English and have a large selection of epics to discuss. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

By the way, Basta is used in English as something different than modern Italian slang. But if you want to suggest that a modern understanding of Italian slang means no understanding of Ariosto, or that I haven't read the work when it is rather obvious that I have (after all, you tried to claim there was nothing Christian about it, which was absurd), then you are only making yourself look silly. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:22, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

"Basta!" means "Enough!" or "Stop it!" It's not slang. The verb bastare is basic Italian and you won't get very far reading a book in that language if you don't know it. "You tried to claim there was nothing Christian about it". No I didn't. I said it was undue weight to call it a "Christian epic". You claimed Christ was a major character in the poem which is proof that you have never read it. --Folantin (talk) 21:46, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

The word "crap" exists in English and can be used in a standard term. However, it is still slang. "No I didn't." The whole top of talk:Ludovico Ariosto contradicts you. There were no references provided by you that states it wasn't a Christian epic, so you can't pull "undue" at all. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:13, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

"I don't think it's that easy to be appointed" Over 17,000 students. That means over 1,000 positions. Having someone with no publications except a few notable translations definitely shows that she was pointed more for honorary/publicity reasons than academic publication. Happens quite often with notable writers. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:31, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Hans, your talk page has been Pythonised. Bwa ha ha! --Folantin (talk) 22:47, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

No problem, since I'm a fan. Can I get a bit of Jacques Tati next week? By the way, where did this basta/bastard nonsense come up first? The earliest references I found were by you here, then here. Hans Adler 23:10, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

It’s way back when Ottava got upset at Jbmurray for criticising one of his Featured Article candidates. Jbmurray finally got tired and wrote, "I tried to copy-edit this sentence, only to get reverted and to have abuse on my talk page for my trouble. Basta!"[18]. Ottava claimed Jbmurray was swearing at him and the following conversation ensued [19] (scroll down). I forgot about that until the Ariosto hoopla kicked off last Christmas.--Folantin (talk) 08:21, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Bonus comedy argument sketch from Youtube [20]. Disclaimer: obviously, debates on Wikipedia are never like this. --Folantin (talk) 09:12, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, that's great! What's different here to Wikipedia debates that draw most attention to themselves is that the thick woman is emotionally detached from the fine. If she were doing this for her own parking offence that might come much closer. Hans Adler 09:35, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Referencing you

I noted your diff in my comment here. You may want to post an official statement of your concerns. Jehochman ^Talk 13:49, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Some thoughts

I'm sorry you feel that way. But it's unfounded. If you asked wider, or read better, you would learn:

1. The evidence isn't just "provided by me", it isn't just "one bit" or "out of context". The current case is about outright plain acknowledgement of abuse of process to "get" at another user, then lied about to the community, and later admitted true. Matters to you? Or not really?
2. Because of drama and such, the matters you're thinking of have been reviewed numerous times (2007 - 2009), both by people who have seen the evidence but are happy to look at it all again, and also by people who haven't seen it before. Full disclosure provided.
3. Arbcom's been rather happy this year to desysop and de-functionary numerous people who did wrong, and explaining why.

I don't mind addressing admin and established editor abuse cases. People who are established in the community should show high standards. A minority play serious games behind the scenes. Most times they get away with it. Sometimes they don't. I do a lot of work on admin abuse and review of seriously substandard admin conduct. It tends to make high level enemies and get "drama", because users who've been round long enough tend to have friends. It's also impossible to be an arb without making enemies, and some people can't believe their friends could do that wrong.

Yes they can.

I've taken several such cases to Arbcom. These are senior trusted users who secretly breached trust, abused others and their standing to harm the project, made false accusations (including false bans) against users, pushed POV, ruthlessly lied, and deceived the users who trusted them. These matter if you ask most users. You can assume I do not make statements lightly, I know the high standard of evidence needed, and you may notice Alison (having seen the evidence) is harder in this case than I am.

Anyhow, think as you will. But reflect on the above too. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 16:03, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Apology

You quite justifiably demanded a retraction of my recent commment about you on t:GW. I've now done so [21] and offer you my apology. You are correct: I had no reason to say that of you. However, I maintain my original sentence, which does not reflect upon you.

I'll read what you have to say more carefully, and may return here to discuss the matter. t:GW can get noisy William M. Connolley (talk) 19:07, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, the retraction would have been enough actually. I can understand how this happens. I once claimed without any foundation that I generally didn't agree with a certain relatively new editor at Talk:Homeopathy. Hans Adler 19:11, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Outed?

Outed as a racist? What are you referring to? --William S. Saturn (talk) 03:01, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I was referring to this comment, which was uncontradicted at the time, in connection with this. I now see that you deny the connection on Jehochman's talk page and that this doesn't mention you. Therefore in retrospect my characterisation of you was not appropriate, at the very least not based on this evidence: At the very least the term "outing" doesn't apply, given that you deny the connection.

I apologise for the error (which I could have avoided by checking my evidence and noticing) and will try to set it right on Jehochman's talk page. My error does not strongly affect the point I was trying to make, though, unless Jehochman knew that you deny the connection when he opened the SPI.

If there is no connection, the block log is a serious problem. As you have seen, people will draw the conclusion that you are connected with that account, and it affects their attitude towards you. I guess there is nothing you can do about it yourself: It doesn't make much sense to address this on your user page, as it would draw additional attention to your block log and people might not believe it. Even the fact that this category doesn't contain you doesn't prove anything, since it might be because of privacy concerns related to your real name(?) account. If it is clear that you are not, after all connected to this user, or at least that there is no sufficiently strong evidence for such a connection, then you have a strong case for a zero-length block by Tiptoety that sets the record straight. If the situation is more complicated than that (e.g. you having operated some but not all accounts in that sock drawer), then you need better advice than I can give you. If, on the other hand, the situation is very clear and you are editing under your real name, then you might manage to become one of the very rare cases where a developer removes entries from a block log; although that's rather unlikely. Hans Adler 06:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. I've tried to set the record straight back in June, but a few editors did not believe me. Admin Happyme22 confirmed my explanation at AN, but nothing further resulted. Perhaps the best course at this time would be ask Tiptoety for the zero-length block, I'll see what he says. --William S. Saturn (talk) 07:11, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Also

Hans Lukaschek could use an article - he's on German wiki [22]. "Königsberger Kreis" should probably have one too since it appears notable, but alas, nothing on other Wikis AFAIK.radek (talk) 20:28, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I thought about translating de:Hans Lukaschek, but I have only a finite amount of time and I am not too interested in these right wing figures. Fortunately they are becoming less and less of a problem since most Germans agree that the wailing of some(!) "second generation displaced persons" is mostly a joke. I guess they still have an unproportional amount of influence, but it's far less than it used to be. Hans Adler 20:37, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, actually I've heard this said many times and I'm sure it's true. But this is Wikipedia. Anyway, thanks.radek (talk) 20:45, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I see I must take back "right wing figures" wrt. Hans Lukaschek. It turns out that after the 20 July plot he was arrested for being close to the Kreisau Circle. I would have created a little stub, but it's hard to decide what to drop from this long biography, and the German article is completely unsourced! Hans Adler 20:55, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

From what I gather Lukaschek was a right winger, but he was an anti-Nazi right winger. I saw a source to that effect somewhere awhile back and I would put it into the commission article if I could find it again.radek (talk) 01:56, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Compliment

I liked your good judgment on the deletion review already, and [23] shows that you also have an open mind for other opinions. — Sebastian 20:29, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, but I don't think it's a big deal. It's a side effect of not caring about the topic itself, but only about a reasonable compromise. And thanks for your support! Now that Wwwolf3 has stricken a large part of their initial statement, perhaps we will get the deletion review on a more rational track. Hans Adler 20:35, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

It may come natural to you, but the Gratwanderung between caring and reason isn't always a Spaziergang for most people here.

Rational track: Well, maybe. I'm not so sure after reading that last reply to my post. It probably would have been better to not feed such arguments, but I couldn't resist, since I do care about contributors in deletion reviews (see e.g. here) and hate to see this point misused. — Sebastian 21:25, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure that I understand your last comment in the DRV correctly. The Foswiki article was deleted in February, about 3 months after the fork. The Foswiki people tried to discuss Foswiki in the TWiki article, but the discussions on Talk:TWiki indicate ownership issues by User:PeterThoeny. Example diffs: [24] [25]. TWiki will need some attention in the near future to prevent this from escalating.

I think what happened is that the TWiki people (1) had problems adjusting to our culture and syntax (an interesting form of systemic bias!), (2) were bullied away from the TWiki article, and (3) were deprived of their own separate article after someone made a tactical error and canvassed off-wiki, and (4) were busy with their fork anyway. Hans Adler 21:46, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Thanks for summarizing the background so that I can understand it. I'll see if I can edit my reply appropriately, or simply delete it altogether. — Sebastian 21:55, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Federal Ministry for Displaced Persons, Refugees and War Victims

Thanks for creating this interesting article; with some expansion it could be an interesting T:TDYK nomination. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:42, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Possibly, although I would like to see some additional work first: The Schieder commission article must look neutral, and ideally there should be a stub on the Königsberger Kreis, since that passage looks like the most likely hook. And the article is still mostly unsourced. Only a Mommsen quotation was sourced in the original, and I only added a footnote for the Amt für Heimatvertriebene bit that I added myself. Hans Adler 21:02, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

If you like Mommsen, you might find this useful, both for your Königsberger Kreis project (pp.96ff) and for the "Schieder commission" (pp.105ff). Skäpperöd (talk) 17:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Hans, regarding the Schieder commission, I think I will take a break from editing and commenting on it, and I recommended to Radek he does the same. I am afraid the atmosphere there is not very relaxing, to say the least, and as such, contributing there is not very pleasant, at least for us. However, I'd appreciate it very much if you could try to improve the article, by making it more neutral and comprehensive; in any case I think we have exhausted most relevant non-German sources we have access to. Thanks, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. Yes, I will try to extend the article. There are some really unnecessary tensions between German and Polish editors. It looks as if I am the only one who is (more or less) willing and able to do some work based on the German sources and who is trusted by both sides – so there seems to be no way around doing it.

In response to your email: No, I don't think you are being disruptive or unconstructive at all. It's a structural problem with miscommunication and plausible assumptions of bad faith. I guess it has to do with the choice of subject, the appearance of some kind of secrecy, and the strong focus on the otherwise totally justified main point. But the situation is much better than what I have experienced between English and Irish editors. Therefore I am very hopeful so far as this article is concerned. (I don't follow the EEML case and have no idea what's going on there.) I think what the article needs to become neutral isn't "balancing" information that would be consistent with an opposite POV, but filling in all the details that don't directly support the main thesis but are also part of the story. Details analogous to Armin Meiwes having become a vegetarian in prison, and having read a Star Trek book during the crime. Hans Adler 18:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Offensive

I found this [26] offensive. You can't say "I think you're playing silly mind games, oh and if you find that offensive then I apologise" William M. Connolley (talk) 00:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Hans Adler didn't say, 'if you find that offensive' rather, he said if it was 'incorrect'. WMC, from our brief interactions you do seem to exude the air of a person who doesn't believe that he needs to talk plainly. I find that to be a shame as I am fairly certain that there is a lot which could be learnt from you, if only you shared. Unomi (talk) 02:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Troy Davis

Dear Frau Adler: Rather than simply reverting edits, you should attempt to verify whether or not the edits are incorrect. In the case of the edits to the article on the convicted murderer Troy Davis, the edits were in fact correct, substantiated, and considerably less biased than the version that was being cleaned up. MJustice (talk) 02:41, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Compliment for the innovative attempted insult and the creative use of an American timezone instead of UTC, while not changing "(UTC)". User warned for BLP violation. Hans Adler 08:10, 9 December 2009 (UTC)