Talk:Skins (American TV series)

Request re-move to Skins (North American TV series)

Made in Canada by Canadian and British production companies (E1 and Company Pictures)[1], starring mostly Canadians, this is a Canadian-British show that is merely set in the US. The last show that had this kind of configuration was Queer as Folk (North American TV series). Toronto can stand in for Pittsburgh or Baltimore but that doesn't change the fact British and Canadian companies are making the show in Canada for a bi-national market. I moved it yesterday from Skins (U.S. TV series) to Skins (North American TV series) and someone took great exception to de-Americanising of the show. Yes, i do not dispute that pretty much everything calls it Skins US. It is short, easy to type, needs little explanation to the convey the minimalistic detail needed to draw in an audience. All of that doesn't mean that it is accurate, just common use. And inaccurate common use is what a redirect is for. Despite being made in Toronto by Temple Street Productions with money from Showtime there exists Queer as Folk (US TV series) as a redirect but there is no Queer as Folk (Canadian TV series). By great coïncidence i happen to have the Ontario Media Development Corporation "OMDC MEDIA LIST – August 13, 2010 Productions currently shooting in Ontario." thanks to needing it for another show. Sadly there are no direct links on their website to the archives of the fortnightly updated listings. So here anyway is my copy. On the bottom of page 2 you will find Skins with the Canadian production company, the production office address telephone and fax info, and the shoot time period. Surely there is proof enough that it is made in Canada by a Canadian company and ought to exist here as a North American series due to it's bi-national nature. delirious & lost ☯ ^~hugs~ 21:48, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

It does not matter that the cast, crew and setting are all mostly Canadian. It's network, the one that greenlit and bought the series in the first place, is MTV which is an US network. It was not intended for airing on MTV in Canada, but instead on MTV Canada. That is a totally different network, and should not be considered in the titling of this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Core2012 (talk • contribs) 03:33, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

MTV Canada has not a damn thing to do with this show. Somehow you seem to think that i am saying that it does. I don't know where you are getting that from.
It does matter that the cast, crew, location (not setting), and production companies are mostly Canadian. That is kind of the point. Who is making and who owns the show? E1 & Company Pictures - a Canadian company and a British company. Who is broadcasting it? MTV and The Movie Network & Movie Central. Are they shown simultaneously? Sort of; the Canadian showing has no commercials and so it may start at 10pm et but the Canadian version concludes first. Who gets the censored version? MTV Who gets the un-censored version? The Movie Network & Movie Central. For the general lack of press about tv in Canada relative to that coming from the US it has proven difficult to track down just when Corus and Astral got involved with Skins. E1 might have sold it to Corus before MTV signed on.
Furthermore, please do not remove comments from talk pages. If you made the comment about Baltimore being removed from the article for lack of any specificity in the show proper or the references then you could remove it but that would be associating your IP address to your account and you probably don't want to do that. And if the comment is not from you then even more so please do not remove the comments of others if they are not vandalism. delirious & lost ☯ ^~hugs~ 05:15, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

The point here is that it's not called Skins: Canada or Skins: North America, and whenever talking about the Skins remake, it's always known as the US version due to the producers claiming it was a US show from the beginning! Many US television shows are filmed in Canada as well as films, and are known as US films and television shows. I honestly think this entire argument is completely pointless to be honest. CloudKade11 (talk) 05:12, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

The point here is proper disambiguation of the article. No show is called Being North American Human or Queer As North American Folk. They are called Being Human and Queer As Folk. If the show were formally called Skins US then the title would self-contain disambiguation. But it is called Skins. And it is not an American show; It is a North American show. If this is completely pointless then you won't mind me moving it back to Skins (North American TV series). delirious & lost ☯ ^~hugs~ 05:49, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Not an American show? You really need to do your research because there is no such thing as a show going by "North American". Such a title doesn't exist and never will. And if you change it back you'll be reported quicker than a heartbeat. CloudKade11 (talk) 01:15, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

I've been watching this whole argument since the first idiot started it. I can easily tell this is unbelievably clearly simply a control issue. He wants to have the title changed his way, and won't settle for anything else. I will fully support reporting him if he needs to be reported in the end. This page better NEVER be moved to Skins (North American TV series), because like the third commenter here made it so clear, that would be the stupidest, most pathetic thing to happen to this page and would make not the least bit of sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Core2012 (talk • contribs) 03:43, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

You lost all credibility once you called an editor an idiot and I stopped reading after that point. Whatever high intelligence you may believe you might have descended from is moot once you descended to schoolyard name calling. If you fail to apologize and square it up, you should be monitored instead. WP:AGF — Preceding unsigned comment added by Veriss1 (talk • contribs) 07:56, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Why would this be a control issue? No editor can gain or lose by moving a page. Delirious is just trying to make the page follow the rules on disambiguation. Calling her an idiot will not further your cause. And no, this argument is not pathetic. Our goal on Wikipedia is to make every article perfect. For that, we must first define "perfect", with many rules. Delirious is just trying to make this page follow the rules. Anyways, if the show is both Canadian and American (in equal measure), it would be biased to just name it as a "US TV show". Put yourself in a Canadian's shoes. You might just feel the opposite. ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 05:27, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

I am not the only one who thinks so. I am in Calgary. Someone from Ajax, Ontario added the WikiProject Canada tag to this here talk page.[2] Further, i am not a "he". Proper disambiguation of a multinational show - it happens all the time. If one show has already ended then often it is simply the start year that is used as in "(2011 TV series)" but the British skins (TV series) is still ongoing. Broadcast in USA does not equal American-made. Calling me an idiot is most inappropriate.[3] Made in/by Canada + set in USA + primary broadcasters are in both countries at time of making of a show = bi-national show. Hence disambiguation of "North American TV series" instead of "U.S. TV series". Just like Queer as Folk (North American TV series) which i shall again link here for those reading this. But if you had read my other comment [4] where i say i will gladly drop my request for bi-national recognition in light of the child porn claims in the US you would see how odd it is to have later called me an idiot and threatened to report me for discussing something. I haven't watched the show and have no interest in it. I simply found it has significant ties to Canada as well as the USA and wished to have that reflected in the disambiguation of the article title. I guess that makes me a Canadian Idiot. delirious & lost ☯ ^~hugs~ 05:44, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't make you a Canadian Idiot, and don't try to use a link to a song to make it all like cleaver, when all your doing is TRYING to bypass how you mislabeled the countries. Anyway, now that the you decided not to re-move the page, I guess this is settled. I apologize for maybe overreacting with the report threat, but the other person made the same threat. Beside, I never threatened to ACTUALLY REPORT you, but instead to simply support the person who made that threat if they did ultimately report you, so don't you EVER try to twist my words. Then Again, try watching part of an episode, and you'll realize how clearly (based on acting, writing, subject matter, and overall content) they specifically (and only) intended for it to be seen be US MTV viewers, not anyone in Canada. They would have used more Canadian-inspired content if they intended for any MTV Canada airings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Core2012 (talk • contribs) 06:15, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

I complete agree with Core2012. Nothing is being noted out there that this show is even remotely part-Canadian. I really don't understand all the fuss here. I'm sorry Canada didn't make their own version of Skins, but just because Skins has their own version and Canada does not, it doesn't give you the right to make up a story that the US and Canada are in North America, thus having to name the show "North American". Sorry, but I won't let this article change into something it's not. I also checked out the Queer as Folk article, and let me tell you that someone really needs to get some work on it ASAP. It's horrid. And I'm not even going to bother arguing with the whole "Canadian/North American/US" thing there. I might in the near future, but not now. That article really needs to be fixed up.CloudKade11 (talk) 07:10, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

The show currently IS mislabelled. Queer As Folk was mislabelled on Wikipedia for something like 3 or 4 years as an American show, just because it was shown on Showtime. Theses shows are set in US cities so that they can be shown on US tv without people objecting to their being made in Canada. There are many, many, such shows. Most of them do not require disambiguation in the title of their articles on Wikipedia so this never comes up as an issue about those articles. Being a remake that uses exactly the same title as the original results in disambiguation being required. If skins were made by an American company then the "U.S. TV series" disambiguation would be appropriate. Smallville is made in Canada by an American company but requires no disambiguation as it is by far the most well known subject of that name. Nikita (TV series) is also made in Canada but by an American company though it doesn't share the exact name of the show and movie it is a remake of so this issue is not also found there; it is simply disambiguated as a "TV series" from people of that name. Being Human has this issue. Being Human's remake is made in Montreal by a Montreal production company for SPACE and Syfy. It has bounced around Being Human (U.S. TV series), Being Human (Canadian TV series), and Being Human (2011 TV series) mostly because of my pointing out that while set in Boston and staring a couple of Americans in principal roles it is made in Montreal and its primary broadcast channel is a Canadian sci-fi cable channel. There is a discussion on the proper disambiguation of 2011 or North American but so far all parties agree that due to it's bi-national status having either country in the disambiguation is inappropriate. I happen to edit Canadian-made tv shows. So you might find me often in related discussions. It is one of my niches. It is why you find me here. Again, MTV Canada has not a thing to do with this show. If the show has not a thing to do with Canada then why is is being made by E1 (a Canadian company) and made in Toronto and shown on Corus and Astral Media channels? They, not MTV Canada, are the intended Canadian channels. If skins was not meant to be seen in Canada then it would be made in the US or at least made by a US company and would not have simultaneously premiered in Canada as typically only broadcast networks (not cable channels) have any benefit to simultaneous transmission of programming. With all of the allegations of the showing being child porn i think i will pass on watching it. The furthest my tastes go in this is the show skin (TV series) which was on FOX and CH 7 years ago and which was cancelled for being too graphic to attract an audience and it is far more tame than what i hear skins is. I know many Canadian shows that are made to be sold to American broadcasters so i don't need to watch this to know that it is possible to make a show in Canada that will be marketable in the US without alluding to its Canadian origins. The first season of Flashpoint (TV series) was made ambiguous enough to fool many American viewers of CBS into thinking it was made-in-the-USA. With subsequent seasons things such as street names and license plates on vehicles were no longer hidden and aerial shots of Toronto were frequently used to clarify that "any big city" to be Toronto. I hope you don't mind my passing on viewing this show. I never said the content of the article on Queer As Folk was top-notch just that its article title is correctly disambiguated. As to being sorry Canada didn't make their own version of Skins you appear to not understand that this is that version; it is shared between the two countries. As to your objecting to my "right to make up a story that the US and Canada are in North America" i just don't know what to say. I am not writing just to you Core2012 but to both/all of you now here and who may later read this. delirious & lost ☯ ^~hugs~ 07:46, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Just stumbled across this argument, but I have to say I agree with delirous. I disagree with herabout the significance of where it is filmed. That is of no importnace, but nor is the issue of where it is set. If a US TV show were set and filmed in say Palestine, it would not be a bi-national production, it would be US. However, the fact that it is produced to air in both the USA and Canada means that it is a North American production. I think people may be being a tad patriotic on both sides of this argument (as a Brit i can understand that), but delirious is right even though some of her reasoning is flawed. 95.146.248.44 (talk) 09:52, 22 January 2011(UTC)(retroactively signing this, not signed in at time, dn't know if that's allowed?) Humphrey appleby (talk) 15:14, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but the problem here is that there is no such thing as a "North American TV series". Delirious just barely made up that title for all shows. CloudKade11 (talk) 16:28, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Article title not Show title. A descriptive difference included in the article title that accurately conveys how one thing is not another thing that it shares a name with. That is what disambiguating articles is. It is not saying the show is called skins (North American TV series). If the show formally were titled skins us then that would self-contain the required disambiguation and the article title would be Skins US. The show is made in Canada but American companies make shows in Canada all of the time. Who owns the show? Not MTV but Company Pictures, a British company, and E1 Television, a Canadian company which just so happens to have operations in Los Angeles and London in addition to their head office in Toronto because they do make shows all over the place for various markets and are actually one of the main producers of content for multinational television markets (it is not an afterthought for them to sell a show to Germany or the UK or Malaysia or the US but rather that is part of their standard practice). If E1 makes a show in Canada that is set in Canada and is principally for a Canadian market then it is a Canadian show, even if NBC buys US broadcast rights. If E1 makes a show in the US that is set in the US and is principally for US broadcast then it is an American show. When E1 makes a show in Canada and shares production with another Canadian company and the principal broadcasters are a US cable channel and a Canadian cable channel owned by the company co-producing the show with E1 then it is a multinational production. For example, Haven (TV series) is made in Canada by E1 Television and Shaw Media for Syfy and Showcase (TV channel). As there are no other TV series by that name no regional or chronological disambiguation is needed. The prose of the article also does not label it as an American or a Canadian show but simply as "Haven is a supernatural drama television series...". If there were another show called Haven then adding in a regional disambiguation would be required. All of my mentioning of Queer As Folk is because it is the only other show in this circumstance that has been settled. This exact same issue of disambiguation exists on Being Human and remains unresolved though despite my earlier comments in that discussion i am now favouring use of North American TV series there because even the show's credits call it the North American version. All three have their origins in British tv. All three remakes are made in Canada by Canadian companies with some or no involvement from American production companies. All three shows' remakes are set in the US. All three remakes had both Canadian and American cable channels order the show to series and where applicable renew their orders for additional seasons. None of the shows were made exclusively for one channel and the other from the other country came along later. That is the epitome of a bi-national tv show. For such the disambiguation in the article title is regional rather than national to the exclusion of one nation in favour of the other nation. delirious & lost ☯ ^~hugs~ 01:01, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Again, no show in the history of television goes by "North American" or anything similar to that. That's what you have to understand. It's easier to just leave it as U.S. Also, the QAF article needs to be fixed, so you can't really use that as evidence. One more thing, do you have any proof that Skins includes it "North American" in the credits? CloudKade11 (talk) 02:19, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

There's a slight misunderstanding here. Like delirious said, Article title not Show title. It's irrelevant that no show has been called "North American", because We are not renaming the show. Ditto for the credits thing. This is just a disambiguation problem, which arises from the fact that Skins is also a UK TV show. To differentiate the two articles, we have to write Skins (North American TV series). We can't narrow it down to "US TV series", because it isn't just a US TV series. We are specifying it's location. If we are going to specify, we'd better specify correctly. ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 07:28, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

If skins is available on demand from Movie Central then i can fast forward through the show to the credits. It wasn't there a couple of days ago but it says it is/will be available. The tvrips you can download not so legally cut off the end credits of shows if they are from a US broadcast. I'll go look. I am guessing that there will be some nice "Canadian Casting", Ontario Film & Video Tax Credit, and Directors Guild Of Canada stuff in the credits. If you are in the US you could likely view a stream of the episode from mtv.com and see the same thing.
QAF article content is not that well written and referenced but that is of no consequence to the article title being correct.
I don't know how many more ways i can try to explain and give examples of Article title disambiguation. It is not what you seem to be thinking it is. ManishEarth gave an admirable attempt at explaining it. delirious & lost ☯ ^~hugs~ 08:22, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

So, skins is still not available on demand from Movie Central. I picked up a VPN to watch the credits stream on mtv.com since they do geolocking of their streaming content and guess what - the credits are cut off from the stream. But out of desperation i thought to try The Movie Network's site. It is there. With end credits. And you can skip to the end and avoid the content of dubious nature. And there is not one bit of advertising the precedes the episode or interrupts it. The theme song is by 3d Friends. Skins is produced in association with The Movie Network and Movie Central and is produced by E1, Storm Dog, Company Pictures, and MTV Production Development. Here are 12 screencaps from the stream from The Movie Network. In there you will find CDC members did the casting, that it is protected by the copyright laws of Canada, the US, and other countries, that it is made by members of the Directors Guild of Canada and the Writers Guild Of Canada (but not the Writers Guild of America), and other things. I can't put up a link for you to download the stream as that would violate every copyright law applicable here and get me in trouble too. If you want to see for yourself then watch the stream from themovienetwork.ca. When the DVD comes out you will see it there but in the mean time there is not much else to offer you to show it is a multinational production and that it is indeed being produced by The Movie Network and Movie Central and not just shown on those channels. delirious & lost ☯ ^~hugs~ 10:04, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Skins (North American TV series) is quite clearly the appropriate title for the article. As has been pointed out, some contributors here don't quite seem to understand what a disambiguator is for. It's merely to distinguish articles with the same title from each other. It's not to suggest that this is the actual titles of the series. But it does have to be accurate, and as it seems that this show can be given no particular nationality (filmed in Canada, set in the USA, owned by Canadian and British companies, shown in Canada and the USA) then "North American" is the best and most accurate compromise. It's true and it disambiguates this series from the British original. Job done! -- Necrothesp (talk) 23:17, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

As you can now see from the current article title, I got my way as the title is still Skins (U.S. TV series), and won't change any time soon. I am not saying I was entirely right from the beginning, but I was at least partially. As far as disambiguation, whoever said some people here don't seem to understand it's meaning is/are completely wrong. I entirely understand that concept, and its use. Here are two options you could use instead if you want it changed so badly: 1)create a separate page for the Canadian version, unless it is too similar. 2)if it is too similar, mention in this article's intro that the show also airs in Canada, and any differences (like how it is uncensored and commercial-free there, as was stated by the guy who started this whole argument) can be included there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Core2012 (talk • contribs) 00:39, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't think you understand the concept of Wikipedia at all. Crowing that "I got my way as the title is still Skins (U.S. TV series), and won't change any time soon" is childish, irrelevant and inaccurate, as it can be changed at any time. Wikipedia is a collaborative project, not a vanity project in which you argue until you "get your way". I'm not going to move it yet, but if there is a consensus to move then I shall do so. From what I can see there are two people here who support your point of view (including yourself) and four who oppose it. This issue needs more discussion. -- Necrothesp (talk) 00:59, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Coming here from the MoS discussion on Being Human, I've got to agree with Delirious and Necrothesp. As the show is clearly made primarily by Canadians (but with US and UK participation), primarily for the US market (but with the Canadian market in mind as well), calling it either "U.S." or "Canadian" is taking a debatable stance. However, nobody can argue that it's not North American. And since the purpose of the disambiguation (that is, the bit in parentheses) is to distinguish articles which would otherwise share the same title, and to do so accurately and unambiguously, "North American TV series" is the best disambiguator, just as it is in the cases of Queer as Folk and Being Human. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 03:32, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't think you understand me at all Necrothesp. I am not TRYING to "get my way" with this. Beside, if you actually tried to move the article, I WILL move it back, and make a note as I suggested in my last comment, stating that the same show airs in Canada, but uncensored and commercial-free instead. Making such a note would be MUCH more appropriate for this particular situation than renaming the WHOLE article. "North American TV series" makes no sense anyway, as NOT A SINGLE OTHER SHOW that does/has air(ed) here in both countries has its article named "North American TV series". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Core2012 (talk • contribs) 04:23, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

First thing, by WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, we don't care about precedents. Second thing, "I WILL move it back"? That's just an invitation to an editwar. Which can get you blocked. Third thing, you are missing the point again. We are not talking about the article content. "Making such a note" has no relation to the title. The page is an encyclopaedia article. Imagine (Please forgive my exaggerated analogy) looking up the article on "Bread" in Britannia and finding a nice article on "Cheese". Even worse, looking for the article on "Cheese", and not finding it because it's mislabeled as "Bread". That's whats happening here. ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 06:52, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Core2012, four points:

1. This is not about whether the show airs in Canada, with or without commercials or censorship. It's the same program. The question of whether it's a "US" or "Canadian" series can mean a number of different things: a) who makes it? b) where is it made? c) who put up the money for it to be made? d) who is it primarily made for? These questions have different answers: a) Canadians, mostly; b) in Canada; c) US and Canadian TV channels and other production companies from both countries; and d) both countries, though since the US market is bigger it's a larger target. Depending on how you define "US TV series" or "Canadian TV series", it's possible to make reasonable arguments either way on this. Since we're not likely to come to a consensus on whether the show is "US" or "Canadian", why not say that it's North American, which encompasses both?
2. You seem to have missed the discussion about Queer as Folk (North American TV series) and Being Human (North American TV series), both of which are in the same situation, and both of which have now been settled with the "North American" disambiguator. Manishearth isn't completely correct when he says that we don't care about precedents: what would be more accurate would be to say that we care about precedents only if participating editors feel that the reasoning behind them works in the situation at hand. And in this case, I think that it does, and I think others do as well. Which leads me to the next point:
3. Wikipedia operates by consensus, not by who edited last. A formal move request has now been started; the article shouldn't be moved (by anyone) until that is finished. But when it is, you should respect the decision made by your fellow Wikipedians.
4. In future, please sign your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking on the signature button above the edit window ( or ). Thanks! —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:41, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Core2012, if the article is moved after a consensus has been reached to do so and you move it back then it will be move protected and I will consider blocking you. Simple as. That will just be considered disruptive behaviour. Wikipedia operates by consensus. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:33, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I must disagree slightly with Josiah Rowe (though not his conclusion) slightly. I would say that this is not a matter of being unable to agree on whether this is a US or a Canadian show and agreeing to North American as a compromise. I submit that it truly is a 'North American' show. As discussed above I think this correct disambiguation is derived from the following broad criteria: a) which nation financed it? b)which nation produced it? and c)which nation is it targetted at/produced for? The finer detail that should be considered as a part of this includes questions such as: i) where is it set ii)where is it filmed iii)where does it air iv)who (nation wise) is it marketed at v)who wrote it vi)who acted in it and so on.

The criterion carrying most of the weight of this is surely c) - which nation is it targetted at/produced for. In fact, i think I would go so far as to say c) alone has the weight to give a show binationality all by itself. EG, if all questions apart from a) answered france and a) answered Germany - it would be a French show as the question of who financed it does not carry enough weight alone to raise binationality but if all questions apart from c) answered France and c) answered Germany it would be binational.

In this case the issue is complicated, but the production itself is almost entirely Canadian (with some British influence (separate from the fact it's a copy of a UK show) in script and production decisions like casting). In terms of finance it is mostly a mixture of US and Canadian, although i believe there was some UK financing in the early speculative stages. Lastly, which nation is it targetted at? It is targetted at both Canadian and US audiences, but as US has a much larger potential audience this is where the focus is. However, the fact that the US version is censored and Canada will get the full version shows this is not entirely targetted at the US and then retargetted at Canada - if it were, the content which will be edited out of the US version wouldn't even be produced. Some attention was paid to international audiences and the decision was made early on that this would also air in Germany, but this has not noticably influenced production. Overall, I would say 80% targetted at US, 20% targetted at Canada, international is after-production targetting only.

Conclusion: The Candian dominance in production, US/Canadian/multinational financing and US/Candian targetting with focus on US audience shows this to be a binational show. The UK influence in production and finance is not significant enough to qualify this as a multinational show. Similarly, despite the fact it was decided early on that the show would air in Germany, the show has not been targetted at a German audience. Therefore, the binational disambiguation of 'North American' is correct for this article. Humphrey appleby (talk) 15:14, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Humphrey appleby, welcome to Wikipedia as a named user. It is nice to not be a number. While you make a very good point that is pretty much supporting my position i must disagree with your assessment. Most shows made in Canada, whether they ever successfully do or not, are made with the intent to market them to a US broadcast network or cable channel. It brings in more money if they can sell the show to the largest market in the English language and who doesn't want to increase revenue streams? By your weighing target market as the primary concern that would put almost every single Canadian tv show as being North American. That is taking it too far. It is a fairly general but not that inaccurate a statement to claim that most English language tv shows have at least one of either the United Kingdom or the United States as a desired or intended target market. Australia and Canada make many great programmes but have smaller populations. For that reason i would consider target market the least important factor if you are to consider them unevenly. Who makes/owns it & where is it made being of equal or greater concern. In your previous example of a show made & set in Palestine by a US company then it would be a US show. If that show were co-produced by a Palestinian company and also received local broadcast (as is likely to happen) then it would be a US-Palestinian show. I don't think Traffic Light (TV series) and In Treatment are made or set in Israel; they are considered American remakes of some fine Israeli television programmes. If you get into concerns about who individually stars in a show then many American shows would be partially Australian - Charmed, The Mentalist, Profiler, The Guardian, The Chicago Code - all for starring some of the hottest actors formerly in Australia or partially Canadian - 24, Veronica Mars, Just Shoot Me, Happy Endings, ALIAS, Terriers, How I Met Your Mother, LOST, and even The Mickey Mouse Club - for the actresses and actors of Canadian citisenship that star(red) in them. Citisenship of one actress, even if she plays the titular character is not in itself a deciding factor. The skins remake cast is presently predominantly Canadian. If it is anything like Degrassi then the cast will change as you can't be a teenager forever and that balance of citisenship could change (assuming the show makes it to multiple seasons). Who paid for the show is of such weight as to make a show German-French in your above example. If it is owned by the German company that also made it then it is not a French show even if the language of the show is French. delirious & lost ☯ ^~hugs~ 02:13, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid I disagree with you there (although I think we're now getting distracted away from the issue and towards pure hypotheticals). I think you misunderstand me when I say who is in it is a factor. I believe this to be a very minor part - so just having an Australian actor, or even an entire Australian cast would not make it an australian show. But if the cast were Australian, it were filmed and set in Australia, its writers were Australian, the production and edit crew were Australian, then this should carry some weight (not enough to make it binational, but enough when added to financing or targetting), even if the producing corporation were eg US.

I disagree with you that the questions of finance and production are more important than intended market (not applicable here as it is aimed at both US and Canadian markets). A significant number of shows which air in the US (and made to do so) are Canadian produced and financed (although later sold to US companies). I would call these binational. I would be much less likely to call something financed in Canada but produced by US and marketed at US binational - this is simply a case of international speculative investment. This happens in lots of industries and is not generally considered to qualify something as a binational project - unless the foreign country is paying for the project at the end (as happens in aid projects - but you are unlikely to see a foreign aid programme financing TV). Where the project is sold to the producing country by the financier, it is not binational. Incidentally, the strength of the Canadian film/TV industry would mean that if financing was as important as you submit, then virtually every US programme currently airing could be considered binational, even those not produced in Canada. Canada's TV industry finances a lot of shows in their initial stages, even those not aimed at the Canadian market. Once they get through the concept stages, they are then sold on to the US market. Humphrey appleby (talk) 09:22, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Broadcast rights being sold to ABC or NBC or The CW does not a bi-nationality make. If that were the case every hit show and most of the failures too that are found on US tv would be bi-national due to their being at some time broadcast in Canada on CTV, Global, CH, OMNI, Toronto 1, Citytv, E!, /A\, Showcase, SunTV, The New RO, OnTV, ASN, or SPACE. Unless you are saying the reciprocal of your position is not a valid. Many, many, many shows are made in Canada. Of those shows made in Canada that are seen on US broadcast or cable channels very, very, very few are made by Canadian companies. What you call bi-national i mostly call Canadian. What you call American i would likely call bi-national. What i call American you seem to oddly be calling Canadian. There are no shows financed by Canadian companies that are also not produced by those said Canadian companies that are financing the said shows. What you and most people fail to see or acknowledge is that these shows made in Canada are marketed in Canada to Canadians as domestic, original series on the channels they are shown on. Smallville is not a "SPACE Original Series" but Being Human is a "SPACE Original Series" and Haven is a "Showcase Original Series" while Covert Affairs is not. Smallville and Covert Affairs are both made in Canada but made by US companies for US distribution with Canadian companies buying Canadian rights to the shows. "Where the project is sold to the producing country by the financier, it is not binational." Shows themselves are rarely ever sold these days, and they are not sold to a country. Distribution rights to a show in a particular territory via a particular medium is what is sold. Syfy bought US broadcast rights to Haven while Shaw Media co-produced/financed the show and put it on Showcase with repeats to start on Global shortly. NBC bought US broadcast rights to Merlin and CTV the Canadian broadcast rights; when the show failed to deliver an acceptable audience on their broadcast networks both companies flipped the show to their respective sci-fi cable channels. Disney makes Desperate Housewives and broadcasts it on their network and they sold the Canadian broadcast rights to CTV. Merlin is not a British-American-Canadian show. Flashpoint, rookie blue, Call Me Fitz, and Durham County are all made in Canada by Canadian production companies. Call Me Fitz is set in Detroit whilst the other 3 are set in or near Toronto. CBS bought into Flashpoint and co-produces the show but with their selling their first-run rights to ION who knows what CBS will do long-term on the production side of the show. If selling the US rights is still profitable then CBS will probably stay on as a co-producer of Flashpoint. The other 3 have no US production companies involved in their making. ABC bought US broadcast rights to rookie blue. ION bought US broadcast rights to Durham County. It seems that US rights to Call Me Fitz are available for purchase.
If the above seems blah then let me say that i am just plain and simple outright confused by your statement "financed in Canada but produced by US". Shaw (co-)financed rookie blue, Lost Girl, and Haven and Shaw produced the shows. rookie blue is on Shaw's Global network, Lost Girl and Haven are on Shaw's Showcase cable channel. That two of those three have had their US broadcast rights purchased doesn't make them US shows in any way at all. But i think you are arguing that it most certainly does. Disney/ABC isn't producing rookie blue and NBC/Universal/Syfy/GE/Comcast is not producing Haven; both companies simply bought broadcast rights. Hence i am so confused by what i understand to be your position regarding Skins and every other show made in this hemisphere. Perhaps you could just email me because i have a feeling it might not be worth filling this talk page trying to comprehend each other's position. delirious & lost ☯ ^~hugs~ 10:51, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Baltimore

I removed the part about the setting as Baltimore. No source, and not mentioned at all in the show. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.150.172.40 (talk) 02:51, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Child porn

So the (US) morning shows are saying that people could be arrested for violating (US) child porn laws because of this show? And will such people be extradited from Canada? As the US has a habit of prosecuting minors in child porn (see sexting), I shouldn't wonder if the actors themselves would also be charged and wanted in the US. If this comes to pass... would the British version also be in the targets of prosecutors?

These concerns need to be added to the article. 64.229.103.105 (talk) 13:22, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

They do, look at all the sources: http://www.google.com/search?q=most+dangerous+tv+show+for+chidlren&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLL_en 74.137.176.86 (talk) 15:53, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

If noöne else has i should be able to go through that in the next day or so. If all of those google results say what this section heading does then i shall gladly rescind my request that this be recognised as a bi-national show. Blame Canada because outside is America. I am guessing the headlines are crafted to sensationalise and ensure maximum exposure (how ironic) but if there is any truth to it then ... delirious & lost ☯ ^~hugs~ 23:43, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

Skins (U.S. TV series) → Skins (North American TV series) — See ongoing discussion at Talk:Skins_(U.S._TV_series)#Request re-move to Skins (North American TV series), but the gist is there is an original British show at Skins (TV series) and this new series is filmed in Canada [edit: comprised primarily by Canadians and originally intended for the Canadian market --Born2cycle (talk) 17:07, 24 January 2011 (UTC)] but aired on a U.S. network so "North American TV series" is the suggested compromise disambiguator to "U.S. TV series" or "Canadian TV series". --Born2cycle (talk) 06:59, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

• Support per discussion above, and per precedents at Being Human (North American TV series) and Queer as Folk (North American TV series), all of which, like this version of Skins, were made in Canada by Canadian production companies (or in co-production with US or UK companies), primarily for the US TV market. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:27, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
• Support per arguments made by delirious and me in above discussion. ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 08:03, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
• Support per my own can't shut up above, but must again contest Josiah's assertion they were made primarily for the US TV market. BH isn't and QAF wasn't either. Made to work in the US TV market, yes, but not necessarily made for that market. And ManishEarth if you wouldn't mind letting me save an edit once in a while ;) delirious & lost ☯ ^~hugs~ 08:14, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

The gist above in the proposal really is too simplified. If that were the substance of the reasoning then Smallville and Nikita and The L Word and so many other shows would be mislabelled. It is where they are made, who they are made by, and who they are made for. delirious & lost ☯ ^~hugs~ 08:14, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry 'bout that :P ... ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 08:23, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

• Support per arguments in above discussion. Also, i'd second the criticism of 'the gist' above - if what is said here was true then the case for the North American disambiguation is much weaker and it would probably be US. Humphrey appleby (talk) 15:22, 24 January 2011 (UTC)