Talk:Murder of Sadia Sheikh

Requested move

Honor killing of Sadia Sheikh → Killing of Sadia Sheikh – This is clearly a killing, so there can be no doubt that the proposed title is accurate. Whether it is in any way a matter of honour (note spelling in keeping with Pakistani English) is a matter of opinion. While events of this nature are often referred to as honour killings, that is often prefixed with "so called" or similar qualifications, or the word honour is placed in inverted commas to suggest the inadequacy, bordering on irony, of the adjective. We do not have the ability to use that device, so we should simply name the article as what it unquestionably was, a killing: any more is editorial comment. Kevin McE (talk) 17:47, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Disagree. This event is notable as an identified (not so-called) honor killing, not simply a killing. It is not editorializing, but how reliable sources are referring to the event. Plot Spoiler (talk) 20:53, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

There are 6 English language sources cited, every single one of which places the word honour in inverted commas. We do not have the facility of using that device in an article title, so removing the disputed/ironic modifier seems appropriate. Let's imagine the article started as merely Killing of ....: please explain why you would wish to add unqualified "honour" adjective. Kevin McE (talk) 10:49, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I still disagree. This subject is only notable as an "honor killing" -- not simply a killing. I suggest we perhaps make use of WP:RFC instead of this back and forth that will go nowhere, and underhanded unilateral changes -- as you performed on the other honor killing pages. Plot Spoiler (talk) 21:48, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Nothing underhanded about it: I justified it from the sources in each article, and explained that in the edit notes. Any killing that has an article is only notable by virtue of the circumstances of the killing, but the circumstances are not explained in the title every time. Did you consider it underhand when you moved the articles thus in the first instance (as I have only just found). I note that you are now using the device of placing the phrase in inverted commas, and yet you insist on presenting the term in unqualified manner in article titles. Kevin McE (talk) 01:52, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok, let's take a step back and calm down. I was not using a qualified version of the term -- I was simply quoting for emphasis and definitely not placing it in inverted commas. And on the other pages nobody had edited those articles for quite some time when you obviously realized that I had recently edited those articles and decided to make the disputed changes anyway. Plot Spoiler (talk) 15:30, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

How dare you state that we should calm down, and then make a bad faith accusation against me. If you must know, I was those articles at the article Honour killing. I was, as I indicated with a later addition to my comment above, only aware 15 hours later that you had moved them, and I do not appreciate your effectively accusing me of lying. How recently an article had been edited is irrelevant: gaining attention for an article by putting it up for the main page is to invite attention to it. Kevin McE (talk) 22:19, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

As a feminist I am ambivalent about "honor" killing, even if many WP:RS use the phrase. I'd like to see all the articles about women raped and murdered retitled "Rape killing of ____". I'm sure many African Americans would like to see articles about lynching re-titled Category:Lynching_deaths_in_the_United_States "Lynch killing of...". I'm sure Palestinians would like to see stories about Palestinian children killed by Israeli bullets and bombs "Israeli killing of..." Obviously in all cases a POV is being pushed as well as something accurate being said. So as a feminist I like to see the reason males killed women spelled out, as a person sensitive to Wikipedia being used to bash Muslims, I think we have to look at how various killings are labeled in general. CarolMooreDC 16:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

You mean like Lynching of Laura and Lawrence Nelson, Lynching of Jesse Washington, Lynching of Ed Johnson, Lynching of Ell Persons? Jayjg ^(talk) 17:09, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Insert: I'm glad there are "Lynching of..." articles. Now we need "Rape killing..." articles. I'm just calling for consistency and may recommend on Wikiproject feminism changing the names of several such articles. I'm just noting that if one person is objecting, and not even on grounds I mention, that there might be room for discussion. CarolMooreDC 20:37, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Carol, what the heck is with this canvassing on WP:Islam? [1] I request you remove it. This article really has little to nothing to do with Islam -- the religion is not mentioned once in the article and honor killings have also been attributed to non-Muslim groups such as Sikhs and Hindus. And more importantly it does not fall under WP:Islam -- so why are you canvassing there? Plot Spoiler (talk) 17:46, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Wow, that was really blatant. I've removed it. Carol, you claim in your earlier comment that you are "a feminist", yet oddly did not actually mention this discussion at Wikiproject Feminism, instead mentioning it in only one place, a project of which this article is not even a part, on a subject that this article never even mentions. Please don't do this kind of thing again. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:51, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

insert: Note: WP:Canvass explicitly says appropriate notification can be made on: The talk page of one or more WikiProjects (or other Wikipedia collaborations) directly related to the topic under discussion. Now looking at the article Honor killings they are more widespread than one might thing among different cultures. But there is a larger outside Wikipedia propaganda effort to make them exclusively/overwhelmingly Muslim, so I thought this was relevant to that project. So should I revert it or will you? Also, I originally found mention of this Move proposal under wikiproject feminism alerts. CarolMooreDC 20:32, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

In theory, you can notify related projects. In practice, though, you didn't notify "WikiProjects (or other Wikipedia collaborations) directly related to the topic under discussion". Instead, you notified WikiProjects unrelated to the topic under discussion, and rather obviously for the specific purpose of getting the word "Honor" removed from the lede. Now in the future, please make more accurate and truthful Talk: page comments, and please don't do this kind of blatant nonsense again. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:22, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Insert: I gave a very specific reason why it is relevant. You merely stated, no it's not. Not an argument, even by an administrator. And I stated my ambivalence about the title - and this WAS before I realized there had been a similar change to a number of articles. I'll be getting a third opinion in next day or two, at WP:Dispute resolution noticeboard if not elsewhere. CarolMooreDC 23:35, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

You didn't give a "very specific reason", you gave a rather lame excuse that had nothing to do with Wikipedia or this article, and it didn't wash. This article isn't in Wikiproject:Islam, and doesn't even mention Islam. You were caught, and now you're blustering. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:22, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Labeling others arguments as "lame excuses" and "blustering" is not very civil. CarolMooreDC 01:38, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Isn't "Honor killing" a euphemism? Why not call a spade a spade and move it to Murder of Sadia Sheikh? – ukexpat (talk) 19:18, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

If "Murder of..." is used in articles, and it's legally justifiable as a charge/conviction, I'd agree that's a good change. CarolMooreDC 20:37, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

In some articles "Murder of..." is used and in others "Killing of..." At the same time though, sometimes more specific terminology is used if that's what makes the event notable, such the Lynching of Jesse Washington. In this case, the determination that it was an honor killing is what makes this event notable, rather than it simply being a murder or killing. Honor killing has become the accepted term for the homicide of a member of a family or social group by other members. It need not be viewed as a euphemism -- in fact, the term is not even mentioned once in the honor killing article. Plot Spoiler (talk) 20:54, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

The issue is not the content of the article honour killing, it is the way that the phrase is used in reliable sources, which is in inverted commas to show the irony of the adjective. It is not simply a matter of identifying the circumstances of the murder, as with lynchings or rape murders; it is about a situation where the adjective normally applied is applied in a qualified manner. Plot Spoiler suggests "It need not be viewed as a euphemism", but in fact it habitually is presented as such in mainstream news sources. Kevin McE (talk) 22:19, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Series of "Honor" killing moves

I searched "honor killing of" to see what the pattern might be and low and behold User talk:Plot Spoiler made a series of such changes to relevant articles in the last couple days. (added later: this article plus Honor killing of Arash Ghorbani-Zarin, Honor killing of Hatun Sürücü, Honor killing of Fadime Sahindal, Honor killing of Samaira Nazir, Honor killing of Ghazala Khan.)

Some/all? were moved back by Kevin McE, the initiator of the requested move here. Is this the only article under contention now, either party having accepted the rest? If it's more than one - and perhaps even if it's just this one - I feel these changes are quite POV and would like to know because this may be a case for the WP:Dispute resolution noticeboard, if not some more appropriate forum. If the alleged deleted canvassing is not reverted I also will bring that to WP:Dispute resolution noticeboard. CarolMooreDC 22:38, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

When you say "alleged deleted canvassing", are you referring to when you canvassed an unrelated project specifically for the purpose of getting the term "honor killing" removed from the title of this article? In that case knock yourself out at the WP:Dispute resolution noticeboard, because I don't imagine anyone else will be repeating your canvassing. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:29, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not the only one who feels we have to be careful about the Islamophobia promoted by some on Wikipedia, including in feminist-related articles. (80 odd death threats in one day from someone wanting to use a feminist article for that purpose certainly made me aware of it.) Note that on the Feminist Wikiproject and in other women-related wikipedia forums, we often discuss articles with a not very hidden agenda of dissing women. So are you saying that we should not?? A precedent Feminist Wikiproject probably would not be too happy about. And we kn ow that sort of thing would not stand in Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism.

The honor killing article obviously emphasizes Muslim examples, in part because "WP:RS" tend to emphasize them among Muslims and ignore them among others. So the article needs work so it doesn't reflect media bigotry. CarolMooreDC 23:48, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

This article isn't in Wikiproject:Islam, and doesn't even mention Islam, and your constant mentioning of irrelevant topics as if they were somehow meaningful or relevant here (e.g. "I'm sure Palestinians would like to see stories about Palestinian children killed by Israeli bullets and bombs "Israeli killing of...", "would not stand in Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism", etc.) is as transparent as it is tiresome. This has nothing to do with WP:JUDAISM, the I-P conflict, "media bigotry" or WP:ISLAM. You were caught, and now you're blustering. Next time, stick to the topic, and stop playing political games. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:22, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Obviously we have a difference of opinion and my examples have not been effective in explaining what it is. But I think it's important enough to get a neutral opinion. I'm always willing to admit when I'm wrong. CarolMooreDC 01:38, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

FYI I did a search and see that of the six articles including this one that User:Plot Spoiler changed to add "honor", four of the articles mention these are Muslims. Therefore it is hardly "canvassing" to post a mention of these multiple changes at Wikipedia:WikiProject Islam.

User:Plot Spoiler reverted User:Kevin McE's reverts of his original move with a note that this issue would be decided on this page. Obviously this should be done on a case by case basis since WP:RS labeling them "honor killings" may vary. Notability of the death itself may vary. User:Plot spoiler should revert back and go to Wikipedia:Requested_moves and do a multiple listing of all six articles so the wider community can comment on each article's talk page. Thoughts on this proposal? CarolMooreDC 12:29, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Please don't attempt to retroactively justify your canvassing. This article does not mention Islam at all. Plot Spoiler (talk) 15:01, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Hard to believe these retroactive and absurdly weak excuses still continue. Carol, you got off easy; please accept your good fortune and move on. I don't plan to respond to further comments of this nature. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:14, 29 December 2011 (UTC)