Talk:Carlingford Lough/Archive 1

Lake or Fjord

FYI - Carlingford Lough is not a lake but rather a Fjord (salt water)... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Batsmyman (talk • contribs)

In this case, the article shouldn't include the {{infobox lake}} -- User:Docu

Request

Request to change Basin Countries to Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland?Factocop (talk) 17:08, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok if there are no objections to this change, I will proceed as in the article it already says forms part of the international border between Northern Ireland to the north and the Republic of Ireland to the south. Factocop (talk) 09:22, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes I object NI is not a country and before you say it wikipedia is not a reliable source. Mo ainm~Talk 09:42, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Well I just think the article is a bit confusing. I just think it should be changed so as to not confuse the reader. do you have a reason why you think the article should not be consistent throughout in its content?Factocop (talk) 09:54, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Whats not consistent? Mo ainm~Talk 10:05, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I mentioned it in my point above. In the article it reads forms part of the international border between Northern Ireland to the north and the Republic of Ireland to the south. But in the infobox it says Basin Countries:United Kingdom,Ireland. Obviously if Northern Ireland has an 'International Border with ROI, then it must be a country..and as United Kingdom is a Sovereign state, not a country, this should be fixed.Simples. do you have a reason why you think the article should not be consistent throughout in its content?Factocop (talk) 10:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

As pointed out by the Admin who reverted your edit don't take your dispute to this article. --Domer48_'fenian' 11:14, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

thanks for ignoring the question and topic again. another inciteful contribution. Fantastic! This article already suggests that Northern Ireland is a country so there is no dispute here.Factocop (talk) 11:18, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

any further objections to changing the infobox to be consistent with the content of the article?Factocop (talk) 15:14, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Why how many do you want? Mo ainm~Talk 21:08, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Just to make it clear Factocop, just repeating the question doesn't actual give you consensus. Nowhere from asking the first time to the second time was any consensus achieved. In fact I think what we need to do is actual change the body of the text to reflex the infobox so I suggest that we replace NI with UK in the paragraph. Either that or we remove the word "international". Bjmullan (talk) 23:24, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Well if you look at the so called objections, Mo, didnt present any facts to back up his objection, Domer, didnt really object but at least this time you have answered my question in part. Here is a link that suggests that both the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland are both countries. So I guess the article is right as it is. Attempts to push through a political POV, by demoting Northern Ireland to a spot on the earth will not happen here.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.number10.gov.uk/Page823.Factocop (talk) 09:51, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I see you are still struggling with indents, your comments have been indented by me. I have always understood the teachings of the great Saint Patrick when he used the shamrock to explain the Holy Trinity but I do struggle with the UK governments (sometimes) use of the description that the UK is a country made up of four countries. One other point; for each reference you supply saying the NI is a country another can be produced saying it is not. And here is one to start with which is also from the UK government website. So you are absolutely right we will have no political POV here. Bjmullan (talk) 10:15, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps, but the link you provided doesnt actually prove anything. Sure, its a province. Its a province of the Island of Ireland, its a province of the United Kingdom, its a province of Europe. I think your missing the point that a region or province can still be a country. And in the context of province here, its almost slang given that a lot of people refer to Northern Ireland as Ulster, which is a province.Factocop (talk) 10:27, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

NI is not a province of Ireland, the 6 counties are only part of the province which has 9 counties. Mo ainm~Talk 18:32, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

By definition a province is a country, territory, district, or region. So technically I am right. If this is the only thing you disagree with in my last comment it seems that you would agree with me that Northern Ireland is a country then....Factocop (talk) 09:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Don't be stupid and try to put words in my mouth as you well know that is not what I think. Mo ainm~Talk 12:08, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

ok, so what part do you disagree with? (ref. to Northern Ireland) Its a province (def:a country, territory, district, or region) of the Island of Ireland, its a province of the United Kingdom, its a province of Europe. I think your missing the point that a region or province can still be a country. And in the context of province in the link provided by Bjmullan, its almost slang given that a lot of people refer to Northern Ireland as Ulster, which is a province. DO you have an actual point to make?Factocop (talk) 12:43, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Only a minority of Belfast Telegraph readers and journalists refer to NI as Ulster. NI contains only 6 counties of a Province. Thats only a fraction of a total province. Perhaps it would be more apt to call Northern Ireland 2/3's of a province? If we're going to be encyclopedic. --NorthernCounties (talk) 13:41, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Can you forward on the results of this survey? NC, your forgetting this isn't an encyclcopedia, if it were, fact wouldnt be so easily overlooked. But in the context of Ireland, sure, its part of Ulster, but by definition Northern Ireland is province of the British Isles and Europe. So yeah, Id be happy with your suggestion, either that or call it a country, but we all know how it pains you to recognise Northern Ireland as anything.Factocop (talk) 14:00, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment on edits, not editors.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

NC, any chance you can send us a link for this survey? As I have explained below NC, you say it is not a province yet you were happy to support sources that say it is a province on the Giants Causeway page. So which is it? If you are going to object to a motion, make sure you have a reason and not 'just because'. Just highlights your motives further.Factocop (talk) 09:44, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

NI is not a a province of Ireland. Ulster is and is made up of 9 counties 6 of which are in northern Ireland, are you not aware of this Factocop? Mo ainm~Talk 15:11, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

I am aware of this, yes. My argument is that Northern Ireland is a country. Not just this page, but on other pages sources have been used against this argument to say that Northern Ireland is a statelet or region or province of the United Kingdom and not a country. You are happy to support sources that suggest Northern Ireland is a province yet here you say that Northern Ireland is not a province.

Here are 2 sources provided by O_Fenian on Giants Causeway Wiki page which were used to downgrade Northern Ireland, and which you seemed quite happy to support. "As I see it, I'm an Irish Unionist. I'm Irish, that's my race if you like. My identify is British, because that it the way I have been brought up, and I identify with Britain and there are historical bonds, psychological bonds, emotional bonds, all the rest of it you know. ... Bit to talk of independence in Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland is not a country, Northern Ireland is a province of Ireland and it is a province in the UK and I think that the notion of a national identity or group identity or racial identity or cultural identity here is a nonsense." - Michael McGimpsey quoted in F. Cochrane, 2001, Unionist politics and the politics of Unionism since the Anglo-Irish Agreement, Cork University Press: Cork "Moreover, Northern Ireland is a province, not a country. Even before direct rule, many of the decisions affecting the economy, labour law, and wage bargaining were in reality taken in London, thereby diminishing the importance of local control." A Aughey, 1996, Duncan Morrow, Northern Ireland Politics, Longmon: London

very confusing....Factocop (talk) 15:51, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Comments by Factocop on editors has been covered here, "4.One more snide remark about the other". What part of this are they not aware off? --Domer48_'fenian' 15:20, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Domer, feel free to contribute to the conversation rather than add pointless comments unrelated to the discussion....and I think Sarek, is referring to Mo's comments suggesting that I am stupid.Factocop (talk) 15:51, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

No Sarek is responding to your comments directed at me, seen also here --NorthernCounties (talk) 16:15, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Don't think so, given that there is nothing that anyone would find offensive. Now do you want to discuss the topic?Factocop (talk) 16:51, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Northern Ireland must not be used, when going international. United Kingdom is prefferd. GoodDay (talk) 15:13, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

by whom?Factocop (talk) 15:19, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Myself for starters & apparently many others here. GoodDay (talk) 15:21, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

so no one important then? I prefer Northern IrelandFactocop (talk) 15:40, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

GoodDay, if you are ever in Ireland, I would be very careful about calling Northern Ireland the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland is actully the most neutral, non-sectarian name there is. --Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:00, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

According to who Jeanne, NI is not a country and trying to portray it here as one is not going to work. If facts were all this user wanted then he wouldn't object to Ireland as the location as it is neutral and factual. Mo ainm~Talk 16:33, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

In this situation, Republic of Ireland (a sovereign state) is being used. Thus my opposition to using Northern Ireland. -- GoodDay (talk) 16:13, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

G'Day, you cant force a consensus upon the topic. As Jeanne has already pointed out it is more neutral and less controversial than saying that the lough is part British.Factocop (talk) 16:29, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

There's no consensus to add a pipe-link. The onus of getting a consensus falls on the pipe-link proposer (in otherwords, you). GoodDay (talk) 16:38, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

well i did not propose the pipe link...strange...anyway, given there is no consensus, I will revert back to the original state - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Carlingford_Lough&action=historysubmit&diff=395715948&oldid=394694234, prior to Mo's disruption.Factocop (talk) 16:42, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

WP:3RR is a limit, not an entitlement. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:50, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Sarek, as an admin, can you make the revertion then...given that there was no consensus reached pre/post change made by Mo this morning?Factocop (talk) 16:55, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

No, I decline to edit war by proxy. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:56, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Per Final remedies for AE case "All articles related to The Troubles, defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland falls under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24 hour period). When in doubt, assume it is related." Given the nature of this discussion, it's a clear infraction, with these edits here and then here. --Domer48_'fenian' 17:15, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Domer48 for bring this to our attention. Perhaps it is time that this is enforced. I doubt any further arguement will occur until tomorrow, (As I have a hunch; from previous days and weeks, that Factocop may not have internet access from home at the moment.) --NorthernCounties (talk) 17:47, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I have reverted back to original.Factocop (talk) 17:48, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Piped link

The only reason I see for this link is to try and circumvent the failure of attempts to move Republic of Ireland – United Kingdom border. As long as that article remains in its current location, there is no need for the link to be piped. O Fenian (talk) 11:32, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree that is why I removed the piping from the box. Mo ainm~Talk 11:44, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Disagree. I am happy with the page as it is. I dont think there is any inaccuracy in saying that it lies on the Northern Ireland - Republic of Ireland border.Factocop (talk) 11:57, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

So you don't like it and that is the reason for your reverts. Mo ainm~Talk 11:58, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I think the page is accurate in its content. feel free to answer the questions above in the previous thread if you can?Factocop (talk) 12:01, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

It should be 'Republic of Ireland - United Kingdom border' or if you prefer 'Ireland - United Kingdom border'. Northern Ireland is not a sovereign state. GoodDay (talk) 14:41, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Well the template states Location. Sovereign state is not mentioned. Why does it have to be piped to anywhere? I would be happy enough if it said Location:Northern Ireland - Republic of Ireland Border without the pipe.Factocop (talk) 14:45, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

An international border is preffered. GoodDay (talk) 14:47, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Well there are enough sources that confirm that Northern Ireland is a country, so to say Location:Northern Ireland - Republic of Ireland Border would not be inaccurate.Factocop (talk) 14:54, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

It's gotta be an international border, when a sovereign state (Ireland) is included. GoodDay (talk) 14:58, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I know what you want Factocop as you are the one who changed it with consensus or discussion. Mo ainm~Talk 14:50, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

doesnt make sense...come again?Factocop (talk) 14:54, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

You made the changes to the article without consensus or discussion

• Changed "United Kingdom" to "Northern Ireland"
• Changed "United Kingdom" to "Northern Ireland" and "Ireland" to "Republic of Ireland" Mo ainm~Talk 14:58, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Given that it already says in the body of the text that the lough is a glacial fjord or sea inlet that forms part of the international border between Northern Ireland to the north and the Republic of Ireland to the south. my changes were consistent with this. Obviously I didnt raise this in the topic discussion and so my changes were reverted and I was warned. On the other hand your change was not raised in the discussion, was not reverted and you were not warned. There seems to be a small injustice here?Factocop (talk) 15:10, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

When speaking of international borders, we should use Republic of Ireland and United Kingdom. Anyways, what's the names of the counties on either side of the lough? GoodDay (talk) 15:12, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

When speaking of international borders, we should use Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. Also its a bit vague to say on on the border if the border is 200 miles long. The County in Northern Ireland is Down.Factocop (talk) 15:24, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Either use to sovereign states or no sovereign states. GoodDay (talk) 15:27, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I restored the consensus version. Mo ainm~Talk 15:16, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Consensus hasnt been reached, should be restored to original version before your disruption.Factocop (talk) 15:24, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I would ask you not to comment on editors but on the edits it is a personal attack to say my edit was disruption. Mo ainm~Talk 15:26, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

From where I see it, all but 1 editor is in agreement. GoodDay (talk) 15:29, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Given that alot of people who would be interested in this discussion are not aware of it, its not really a fair representation.Factocop (talk) 15:33, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Your refusal to indent properly, is becoming annoying. Please do it correctly? GoodDay (talk) 15:36, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Question

What is the question you keep repeatedly asking editors to answer Factocop? Mo ainm~Talk 12:59, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I was hoping you would respond to the points I made earlier -

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACarlingford_Lough&action=historysubmit&diff=394759794&oldid=394758907

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACarlingford_Lough&action=historysubmit&diff=395559283&oldid=395554862.

and I was hoping Northern Counties would respond to this -

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACarlingford_Lough&action=historysubmit&diff=395712600&oldid=395568223

......14:32, 9 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Factocop (talk • contribs)

I have answered twice already NI is not a country. Mo ainm~Talk 14:36, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Can you show me the diffs responding to the points I made?Factocop (talk) 14:57, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

You havent answered the questions again. ohh well, if in doubt and for lack of an argument, just ignore. well done. another constructive argument...(smirk)...ohh and you should probably tell the British Government as they beg to differ.Factocop (talk) 14:47, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

More importantly, NI isn't sovereign. Let's use [Republic of Ireland-United Kingdom|Ireland-United Kingdom]. GoodDay (talk) 14:49, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

More importantly, a country does not have to be a sovereign state to have an international border.Factocop (talk) 14:57, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Change the content to RoI - United Kingdom, aswell. GoodDay (talk) 15:35, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

The body of the text says that the lough is a glacial fjord or sea inlet that forms part of the international border between Northern Ireland to the north and the Republic of Ireland to the south. so shouldnt the infobox reflect this in location: Northern Ireland - Republic of Ireland Border without the need to pipe it anywhere?Factocop (talk) 15:13, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Change content to reflect infobox. GoodDay (talk) 15:35, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Don't think we are allowed to pipe like that after the ROI/Ireland naming dispute. Mo ainm~Talk 15:00, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Would pipelinking to counties suffice? GoodDay (talk) 15:02, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Might be the other way round with the piping bit confused on the naming issue. Mo ainm~Talk 15:03, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

We certainly can't use Northern Ireland. That would be like saying Lake Huron is surrounded by Ontario & the United States. GoodDay (talk) 15:15, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Dont think Ontario is a country so its not the same.Factocop (talk) 15:21, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Ontario (like Northern Ireland) isn't a sovereign state. If ya wanna use Northern Ireland? then use something other then the RoI. GoodDay (talk) 15:25, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

So are you telling me that only Sovereign states can have international borders?Factocop (talk) 15:28, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

He is telling you NI is not a country. Mo ainm~Talk 15:30, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

It is really hard to believe anything you say Mo, first you said Northern was not a country that it is a province and then you said that it is not a province either. A lot of holes in your argument.Factocop (talk) 15:37, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Northern Ireland, is like Scotland, England & Wales - they make up a sovereign state. GoodDay (talk) 15:31, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I am aware of this. SO enlighten me, what kind of border to England and Scotland share?Factocop (talk) 15:37, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Unless the UK has broken up, it's not an internation border. The border between England/Scotland isn't like the border between Canada/United States. GoodDay (talk) 15:40, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

So England and Scotland are not countries? And ill remind you that the template states location, not Border Sovereign StatesFactocop (talk) 15:44, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

This is the 4th or 5th time, I've had to fix your indent. Anyways, I don't care if England & Scotland are called countries, provinces, territories etc etc. They're not independant, haven't been since 1707. GoodDay (talk) 15:47, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

You didnt say that. My point is that you dont have to be a Soverign state to be a country or have an international border. Agreed?Factocop (talk) 15:54, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Disagree. GoodDay (talk) 15:57, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok so a country has to be Soverign State to have an international border. what do you call a border shared by 2 countries that are not sovereign states then?Factocop (talk) 16:06, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, see WP:INDENT. Secondly, call'em national borders or whatever, but they're not international. GoodDay (talk) 16:11, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

well by definition international means - http://www.thefreedictionary.com/international where as national only refers to one nation. So to use the word national to describe something relating to two or more countries is in correct. I have proven you wrong again. LOL.Factocop (talk) 16:17, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Boo hoo. But we're still not using RoI & NI together. GoodDay (talk) 16:19, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Very mature. Well I have just picked your argument apart so a new suggestion will need to be raised because there clearly is no rationale for a change other than 'just because' and I dont use indents.Laughable really.Factocop (talk) 16:25, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

My alleged behaviour is irrelevant. What is relevant is that there's absolutely no consensus to pipe-link. The onus of getting a consensus, falls on the change proposer (not the status quoers). As there's no consensus, this continued discussion is pointless. If ya got anything futher to say, ya know where my office is (my talkpage). GoodDay (talk) 16:35, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Where can someone apply for a Northern Irish Paspport or a Scottish Passport? Mo ainm~Talk 15:39, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

It depends, where are you applying from?Factocop (talk) 15:44, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

From Ireland do I look for the northern Ireland embassy? Can't find one I have looked. Mo ainm~Talk 15:46, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Which part of the Island of Ireland? If you are looking in Northern Ireland, you will not find a Northern Irish Embassy as Emabassy's tend to be located on foreign soil.Factocop (talk) 15:54, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Just give me the address of one northern Ireland emabassy anywhere. Mo ainm~Talk 15:58, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure you are entitled to one?Factocop (talk) 16:01, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Remove term "international border"

I suggest that we change the sentence "forms part of the international border between Northern Ireland to the north and the Republic of Ireland to the south." As there has been a bit of warring here lately I wanted to discuss it before making any edits. The word international is both unnecessary and incorrect as GoodDay pointed out above it would be like saying Lake Huron is surrounded by Ontario & the United States. Bjmullan (talk) 17:07, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

How is the word "international" incorrect in this context? From what I see, the international border between the two independent states of ROI and UKGBNI passes up the loch. Really the wording just needs changing to say something like the international border passes through the loch. LemonMonday Talk 16:24, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

I would agree with Bjmullan's proposition, now that the factors that led to edit warring have departed. --NorthernCounties (talk) 16:50, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

So what precisely are you saying - that the international border doesn't pass through the Lough? LemonMonday Talk 16:56, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

I believe it refers to the aforementioned "Northern Ireland" as people who have previously debated this argued that NI wasn't a sovereign state. International would be more applicable if it said "...between UK to the north and the ROI to the south.". I don't believe that removing "international" ignores, or misleads the fact that the border still exists. --NorthernCounties (talk) 17:01, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

So we just say "international border between the RoI and the UK of GB&NI". That should cover it. The word "international" qualifies precisely what sort of border we're talking about, and as such I think it is relevant and necessary. LemonMonday Talk 17:06, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

The word "international" means between nations. But the people on either side of Carlingford Louth form part of the same nation, as evidenced by the amended Irish constitution that forms part of the Good Friday agreement agreed with the UK. So international is not appropriate in this context. By all means mention the border, but do not attribute a character to it that the States on either side have agreed that it should not have. Ardmacha (talk) 01:17, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

This long standing edit is raring its ugly head again. 'International' has been in the body of the text for a long time. It is an international border. no need to suddenly change it 2 months after the discussion went no where and no consensus was gained. You could say that County Derry/Londonderry and County Donegal are separated by an international border, but it does not imply that both are countries which I gather is the issue here. Afterlife10 (talk) 12:46, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

You revert edits without being sure what the issue is and without taking part in any discussion! Whether it has taken 2 months (better) or two days to make the change is not relevant. Please refrain from edit warring, I see from your block log that you should be aware what happens to people who do. Bjmullan (talk) 13:03, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Well i've joined the discussion, I know what the issue is. So I'm content with the edits I've made. There is clearly no consensus here for that change, and if there is why did it take you so long to make the edit. Just relax as there is no need for the tone ok. Its fine the way it is. Just leave ok. Afterlife10 (talk) 13:10, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

--Domer48_'fenian' 14:20, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Can anyone see consensus above to change the content of the article as per Bjmullan? No me neither. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.128.8 (talk) 19:52, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Is there really a need for the word "international"? I think "the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland" works fine. ~Asarlaí 15:33, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

So someone's gone ahead and taken it out. The border between NI and the ROI is a border between two sovereign states (the UK and Ireland). Yet more pointless POV Irish nationalist editing from a select group of editors who can't or won't see things as they are. Keep fighting the good fight, Wiki-Volunteers. Uniting Ireland, one edit at a time. JonChapple^Talk 10:46, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Its just further spill over from other Northern Ireland related pages. With attempts to demote the status of Northern Ireland. I'm not sure where the consensus was to make the change, although every revert seems to be met with a plea for discussion or accusations of socking. I will revert back to the original. I also dont think bjmullan should be removing other peoples comments, sock or not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.33.147.195 (talk) 16:06, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

As one of the editors in support of this superfluous addition has been indefinitely blocked, like wise his two socks, I suggest a balanced be provided for its inclusion.This is not the same as the diatribe above. --Domer48_'fenian' 17:56, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

If you ignore everything from the third sentence onwards, my comment above still stands as nothing but fact. It IS an international border, as one between two states. Where is your counter-argument? JonChapple^Talk 18:23, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

I have to say that this is probably one of the most ridiculous arguments I have yet seen on the Internet.

The trouble actually comes from the English language, and its definitions of words like nation and country. Here are some salient facts, for anyone interested.

• Northern Ireland is a country.
• Ireland is a country (that is, the whole of the island).
• The UK is a country.
• The Republic of Ireland is a country.
• England, Scotland and Wales are countries.
• Ireland (again, the island) is a nation of peoples.
• The Republic of Ireland is also a nation.
• England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales are also nations.
• The UK is a sovereign state.
• The Republic of Ireland is a sovereign state.
• The border between Northern Ireland (or the UK if you prefer) and the Republic of Ireland is an international one.

Now here's some irony: people who object to referring to Northern Ireland as a province, also object to referring to the Republic of Ireland - as opposed to "Ireland". I don't know how many times I've seen arguments on the Internet regarding the name of the Republic. They refer to that country's Constitution, though that name was claimed for a couple of reasons. One was out of fear that the country we know as Northern Ireland would claim, every bit as legitimately, the name "Ireland". Their fears, as it turned out, were unfounded. However, it was debated whether they should rename Northern Ireland as "Ulster" on at least two occasions. This has the same legitimacy as claiming the name of the island as the name of the southern state, as the one traditional area is larger than the other in both cases. The other reason for choosing the name "Ireland" (as opposed to the name Éire, for example) for the southern state was one of simple, though very effective, propaganda - as has been admitted and revealed.

So it is hypocritical to object to calling Northern Ireland a province, or even by its nickname "Ulster", while adhering strictly to the name of the island as the name of the southern state.

It should be noted that Republicans in Ireland, and elsewhere, also often object even to reference to the name "Northern Ireland", preferring instead to refer to it by the number of counties it contains - often with the addition of the word "occupied". This is, without doubt, political point of view. I do hope that this "POV" has not been favoured on Wikipedia as a result of systemic bias or political agenda.

Debate which includes such intransigent and dismissive statements such as "Boo hoo. But we're still not using RoI & NI together" is not debate at all.

The facts are listed in the bullet point list above, and one should choose carefully from that list, depending on context, and the best way to avoid confusion - not when it is politically expedient to do so. Unfortunately, the terms some people have used - including governments - have made it difficult to avoid confusion. A situation could arise, for example, whereby a description of the people specifically from the Republic of Ireland would be "the Irish". However, that refers to all the people of Ireland, not just Irish nationals (citizens of the Republic of Ireland). It is frequently used by the news media also to refer to the people, or sports teams or individuals, of Northern Ireland. In such articles however, the context is usually clear: the Irish from Northern Ireland, or the Northern Irish.

Bringing things back slightly more back to topic, I would imagine that bordered areas elsewhere in Europe refer specifically to sovereign territories, rather than, say individual states of Germany. These are presumably also referred to as international borders or boundaries, and there should be no difference between those articles and this one.

If you're looking for consensus then I would suggest "UK & Republic of Ireland" and for the word "international" to be reinserted, if it hasn't already been. These are simple, indisputable facts. There is no reason, other than from a political perspective which would see no reference to the factual existence of Northern Ireland or "the occupied six counties" at all, that the term "international border" should be omitted.

If, however, there has been precedent set in Wikipedia for an object which straddles the border between two regions such as, for example, Saarland and France, then there can be no argument against the use of "Northern Ireland & the Republic of Ireland" in the article. --81.135.29.171 (talk) 13:10, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Irish language name

The supposed Irish derivation of Cairlinn is incorrect, refer to the Carlingford article for the correct Nordic derivation. Carling is obviously Viking (Norse) and the fact that the Irish name Snám Aignech is completely different confirms that Cairlinn is derived from Norse. DesmondW (talk) 09:53, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Geography

Is it not the case that the south side of Lough also includes County Armagh as well as County Louth? This issue may partly depend on where the Lough ends and the tidal river estuary ends. Maps are touch and go on this point e.g. http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,711561,819189,6,3 http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,711561,819189,6,7 Ardmacha (talk) 01:31, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

International

Struggling to see the problem with the word "international" before border. It is an international boundary.Traditional unionist (talk) 12:13, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Border

Think ive stepped on a land mine at this page. Just wondering if there is a problem describing the location as 'Northern Ireland - Republic of Ireland border'? I know user domer has undone this edit already so just putting it out there. I think my proposed change is a little more specific than what is there. What is wiki if is it just mildly correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.139.153 (talk) 23:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

You have been reverted again. The reason why NI is not used is the it not a country and the article you linked too doesn't exist either. Also this has been discussed here in the past. Bjmullan (talk) 18:59, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Bjmullan, I didnt link to an article. I'm pretty sure Northern Ireland is a country, but either way, Northern Ireland does not need to be a country to have a border, just the same as a county or state or region or whatever can have a border. Just seems to make sense given that the Ireland map directly above that field points to the location on the NI - ROI border. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.139.153 (talk) 19:06, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

If you are sure that NI is a country I suggest you tell them all here. Yes you did link to an non existing article: Northern Ireland - Republic of Ireland border. I suggest you read the above thread on international borders for some background. Please also see the top of the talk page for editing restrictions which apply to this article. BTW I indented your comments. May I also suggest that you register as a user rather than using an IP address. Bjmullan (talk) 19:45, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

ohh sorry, didnt mean to link to non existent page. As for the border, i dont think i referred to the border as international. The Northern Ireland wiki page says that it is one of the four countries of the UK. So it is a country then? Either way, like i said a border does not need a country to exist. I dont know what the fuss is about. Also 1 page edit rule also applies to you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.139.153 (talk) 19:55, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

For several intents and purposes on Wikipedia, Northern Ireland is classified as a country, however a border does not have to be between two countries - it can be between entities, and Northern Ireland is an entity. I find it ironic Domer48 and Bjmullan have reverted this change despite the article's lede stating the same thing that the IP is trying to put into the infobox! Also note how the infobox box states "Basin countries" and what is mentioned in there? Northern Ireland not United Kingdom. So it seems inconsistent to state United Kingdom when its more specific and just as accurate to state Northern Ireland - especially considering as the area of contention here states "Location" not "Country". Mabuska ^(talk) 21:56, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I certainly think the change is worth making, as I've explained already, the map points to a location on the NI-ROI border, so to change the location to NI-ROI border should not be a big issue. All in favour of this change say Aye. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.138.59 (talk) 20:53, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

You're welcome to start a move request for the target article, since it's however a border between the sovereign states of the UK and Ireland it's not very likely to succeed. Unless the article is moved, I disagree with any piping as you're attempting a move via the back door. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 13:24, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

As well as the target article which One Night has mentioned there is the issue with the Template:Infobox Ocean which talks about countries in the international sense not just the way the UK government does. So it's a nay from me as well. Bjmullan (talk) 22:28, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't mean to create any sort of link to another page. My original edit was my first edit and I was not entirely sure of how to edit the template. I simply want to change the location to say Northern Ireland - Republic of Ireland border, not create a pipe to another page. The change makes sense, given that the map also reflects the intended location on the map.

User:86.155.231.208 not sure what you mean by My original edit was my first edit as the talkpage edit above was your first edit on Wikipedia. If you are saying that you did this edit then I suggest you read Sock puppetry and consider registering as a user before you get a block (again?). Bjmullan (talk) 23:31, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Apologies Bjmullan. it was my first attempt to edit an infobox. You are a registered user yet you seem to get blocked so I am not sure what benefit there is. Anyway off topic...I have checked the Template:Infobox ocean page and under location it states: location = Text about the ocean's location, add country if the ocean is located in several countries so I don't know how you can tell in what sense is acceptable to reference a country. I think if it had mentioned Sovereign State then mentioning UK would be applicable but as it simply says country, I think it is ok to use NI-ROI border as the location field value. Especially as Basin Countries are NI and ROI and the location on the map only shows Ireland, rather than the entire British Isles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.231.208 (talk) 23:41, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

I think we are still not sure if we are speak to one (86.155.231.208) or two (86.155.231.208 & 86.153.139.153) users. Perhaps you could confirm who you actual are? On the country thing, as far a NI goes one man's country is another man's province, occupied states, whatever... so I think it would be safer to go with UK which is internationally recognised. If you are 86.153.139.153 I suggest not making any changes again without consensus unless you want a bigger block. Bjmullan (talk) 23:50, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

you ignored my attempts for discussion so I assumed you had no issue with the change.

But in the Basin Countries field it already states Northern Ireland not UK so surely the page should be consistent? The field is Location so I do not see the issue with stating Northern Ireland as the location. I was unaware that my IP has changed, if it has then it is merely an accident. I have only been editing wiki as off the last 2 days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.231.208 (talk) 00:09, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

The against arguement is seriously flawed considering other aspects of the article. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:36, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

I am the former IP. Just a heads up. I agree Mabuska. The against argument is a limp erection. How do pages ever get updated if people refuse to engage in discussion and only see what they want to see. Turns wikipedia into a bit of a joke.Gravyring (talk)